Well said, Paulo! (ghe ghe, e gracinhas--melhor ti esplicar-lo qu'eu, non sei se a alguen con meu nome ou apelhido farian-lhe moito caso... ;^) Bringing the topic back to gurdies: as regards the whole hole situation (bad pun intended) and the Santalices instrument in question, this brings up a very interesting controversy indeed, and for our little 'viellistic' world here, suffice to say that it (the Santalices model and what it represents) is part of what divides two principal ideological camps within the iberian gurdy scene, as it were.
ciao a tutti, Vlad On 5 Dec 2011, at 02:17, eu paulo p. wrote: > ...<between 1936 and 1975 it was forbidden to speak galician Real Academia > Galega da Lingua ( Galician Royal Academy of Language)> > I want to say " ... it was forbidden to speak galician at Real Academia ..." > (inside the institution) > > ...eu, > pirata petulante, > namorado sem amante, > malabarista errante, > músico ambulante, > eu, tam breve... > > > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [HG-new] Re: gurdy teacher in Lisbon? > Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 03:09:05 +0100 > > ...Oh, to finish (or not?) with this: there is no question about that. You > cannot get "auctoritas" in people, and I hope you guys don´t missunderstand > the assertion. I mean, Galiza is a occupied territorie, at least as paradigm > to study linguistic situation. When Sociolinguistic, or Historical Linguistic > or whatever, studies attributes, characteristics, of galician-portuguese > language in this country (not galician-portuguese language in Portugal, > Brasil, etc., that is another different question) it studies them under this > paradigm: an occupied territorie. So, speakers have the esquizofrenic > behaviour (I mean in a linguistic perspective) of this environment. It happen > not only in Galiza and there is a lot of literature about this. But an idiom > has its structure, derivation's rules, formation patterns, etc., all of them > historically determined. Remember, galician language appears in IX century, > with massive lyrical creations since XII (ca. 1196, first well known > 'cantiga'), administrative texts, etc. So, it has a long history in which it > was defined as a system, as a whole organism. All of that is not new, I > guess, it's already known. The point: "sanfona" derives from greek and later > latin "symphonie". There is no way to the radical of the latin word becomes > "zan-" in galician, it will be always "san-". I said before, this idiom has > some development rules historically defined and, by the way, this is the > reason for which latin --one system-- come to be galician-portuguese, > french, catalan, romanian. All of them walk trough the History in their own > different ways (with commun or contact points, sure, but it's not the case). > > The problem: spanish pression (opression, more correctly). But this is a > problem (today) with people, with speakers, it's my problem as a native > speaker (in school, in high school, with the Government, etc), it's our > problem as nation (about the relation with de Lord --spanish kingdom, of > course--, about the relation with the always intolerant spanish culture), it > has consequences in the control or knowledge of the idiom they (speakers) can > or cannot achieve. But it's not ('in se') a problem with language itself. Not > yet today (sorry Lord). Because galician idiom has (I wrote it) a huge > linguistic, literary, etc. "corpus" (a millennial one, literally) And, today > (it is not so clear for the future, here is one of the points of our fight) > we know that "symphonie" becomes "sanfona" in this part of the world. > > Social questions, and I finish I swear, relates to the fact of some > dictionaries (Xerais, 'verbigratia') show "zanfona" or another wrong word. > Because Franco died in 1975 and reconstruction takes its time and, nowadays, > spanish imperialism thought makes his work. Just to finished, to better > understand: between 1936 and 1975 it was forbidden to speak galician Real > Academia Galega da Lingua ( Galician Royal Academy of Language) and so near > as 1986 this institution was presided over by the Subdelegado do Governo > Espanhol (I dont known how I could translate this, sorry. Anyway, it's a part > of spanish government structure, not galician government, he follows and take > orders from Spain). It's a little bit hard to understand, isn't it? Welcome > to spanish kingdom and its colonies. > > (Note that I am not speaking about the conflict "reintegracionismo" vs. > "isolacionismo". I am, believe me, in the heart of this conflict but this is > not the question here, not with this word) > > ...eu, > pirata petulante, > namorado sem amante, > malabarista errante, > músico ambulante, > eu, tam breve... > > > From: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [HG-new] Re: gurdy teacher in Lisbon? > Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 23:16:38 +0000 > To: [email protected] > > Dear all, > > I've kept quiet about the zanfona/zanfoña matter since I don't wish to fan > the lively flames of Galician orthographic-linguistic polemic (and admittedly > having a foot in both "camps" myself via personal and family connection, I'd > probably annoy both sides, heh heh...) but I will add that I noticed > throughout my fieldwork in these past years, that speakers of Castellano > within the current gurdy-reviving circles tend to refer to the instrument as > 'zanfona' (minus the 'ñ') as per the diccionario Xerais. However, personal > usage varies. I have some makers on record in Zamora calling the instrument a > 'zanfoña', others in Galicia calling it a 'zamfoña' but bear in mind that, as > I understand it, np/nf and mp/mf transference is a common thing. Professional > linguists, please correct me if that is wrong. > Juan Varela de Vega mentions at the beginning of his 1980 article > "Anotaciónes históricas sobre la zanfona" > (http://www.funjdiaz.net/folklore/07ficha.cfm?id=7) some synonymies of the > term, for what it's worth. He includes a few languages but frustratingly > enough doesn't separate the Galician+Portuguese terms from Spanish (grumble!) > . However he does mention the Libro de buen amor (1389), where the terms > mentioned 'cinfonia', 'zamponna', as well as 'çinfonía' and 'çanpoña'. > > But enough on that--Antonio: Xulio García Bilbao published an article in > Revista de Musicología that makes reference to the hole on the lower bout of > the instrument, see here: > > http://ret007ei.eresmas.net/reolid/a-santalices.html > > NB: the footnote numbered 23. However, García Bilbao doesn't mention that, if > indeed the exemplar that Santalices had was a modified vielle organisée, then > the remaining possibility might be that the hole is there much like the > 'mousehole' common to many harpsichords built with an otherwise closed-off > soundbox, simply a way to equalize air pressure between the inside and > outside of the instrument. While on a harpsichord the wood itself and the > seams are probably porous enough to allow enough atmospheric equalization to > avoid drama of any sort, in a vielle organisée it might be possible that the > movement of internal bellows etc might displace enough air to make the little > air-hole desirable. I might also be totally off base on this one. Any > thoughts, folks? > > Ate breve, > Vlad > > On 4 Dec 2011, at 22:18, Antonio wrote: > > Hi, > I am not willing to argue about one letter in a word. However, Sorry > to say this but my Galician dictionary only shows "Zanfona" and > recommends not to use "Zanfoña". (Ed. Xerais - published 2009) - But i > have to say that you find both in contemporary written galician. > Augusto can explain to you that in Brazil "Sanfona" will be understood > by most people as a different instrument (not sure about english word: > Accordion, maybe?). (when I was a child we had a "porta sanfonada" in > our home in Sao Paulo). > I promised not to discuss about this sobject anymoe in this group. > But same language has variations between countries, and within > different regions inside a territory. > the portuguese expression " apanhar a bicha" has a total different > meaning to a brasilian. In Brasil they would say "pegar a fila" (get > the queu) > > Augusto, Galician and portuguese were the same language (not one > before the other, just the same) until one galician king divided the > kingdom in two parts - one for each descendant. > The first daughter (with the bigger chunk of territory) fought against > castille and lost (then galicia kingdom became part of castilla) - > the second was growing the territory in south direction as the > christians took over land after fighting with muslins (in here between > 711 and 1492). So Portugal became a kingdom being just a smal portion > in the north and grow after. (This also explain the origin of the > Bragança Kings - with origin in "Tras os Montes" region - up notheast > portugal) > The only point is that language evolved in different ways. Of course > galician influenced by castillian (or spanish as you prefer) > > Christa muths -See wikipedia in Spanish : Galicia/Galiza : "Zanfona > =Sanfona = Zanfoña" --Zamora: "Gaita Zamorana" - Asturias: "Zanfona / > Gaita de Rabil / Zanfonía" - Basque Country: "Zarrabete" - > Catalunya and Valencia Community: "Viola de roda" - Palencia: > "Rabil de manubrio" > > The catalan player Marc Egea has published a hurdy gurdy manual named: > "Iniciació a la viola de roda". Written in catalan - and the name > shows that in name "Viola de Roda" is used in catalan and for > extension in that area of Spain. > > For "Eu Puaulo P." and all of you. It seems that older galician gurdys > found have a hole in the upper side of the carcass (latearl superior). > Does anyone knows what the function was of it? > > regards, apologies for mistakes of my writting (and perhaps for a long > message) > > > On 4 dic, 20:33, Augusto de Ornellas Abreu > <[email protected]> wrote: > Viela de roda is more used in Portugal and Brazil (well, up until recently > I was the ONLY gurdy player in the whole country, now we have our friend > Rique), but I've heard only once that "viela de roda", since it is valid in > Portuguese, COULD (emphasis on the conditional) be used in Galicia as well, > but the normal word is zanfona/sanfona (sanfona being the normative one, > and zanfona a "castillianized" version). > > Leonard > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "hurdygurdy" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy > > The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found at > http://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. 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