Dear H S No one denies the fact that Senna surratensis is present in India The confusion has arisen because most books consider C. glauca as synonym of Senna surattensis, and leaflet number is written as 4-9 pair. Let us for a moment discard our fixed ideas and go to Flora of British India, which also had confusion about the synonymy but had two taxa in mind"
Cassia glauca: tall tree, with 15-25 cm long leaves, 5-10 cm long (although leaflet number is not mentioned simply saying 16-18 in var. suffruticosa is more numerous means they are less than 16) Cassia glauca var. suffruticosa: leaflets 16-18, smaller more numerous, 2.5-5 cm long; flowers and pod much smaller, pod not more than 10 cm long. Now compare this with Flora of China *Senna sulfurea*: leaflets 4-6 pairs, 4-10 cm long, ; leaves 15-30 cm long; pod 12-20 cm long, : *Senna surattensis:* Leaflets 6-9 pairs, 2-5 cm long; leaves 10-15 cm; pod 7-10 cm Now compare this with Flora of British India and decide. Flora of China describes both as shrubs or small trees, so does Handbook of Flora of Ceylone. We have to realise that there is confusion in literature and we will come out of it with careful analysis of facts and not what we think about the plant. My plant of Senna sulfurea is still labelled as S. surattensis, but we hve to accept facts as they emerge. I would be happy if you provide some concrete evidence to support if you think otherwise. And ye inspite of several confusions,The Plant list treats Cassia suffruticosa as synonym of S. surattensis and not S. sulfurea For once let us agree with Flora of China, a very recent Flora, forget every other thing and see where our specimens fit: Senna sulfurea or Senna surattensis. -- Dr. Gurcharan Singh Retired Associate Professor SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 10:15 AM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > to me it look like *Senna surattensis *(Burm.f.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby, it > is planted as an avenue tree in Navi Mumbai and Thane few year ago,, > whereas Cassia glauca is an shrub, no doubt they both look quite similar, > but can be differentiated once the plant sample is in your hand.. > > yes very much Senna surattensis present in India and surattensis name > itself is the prove that name after Surat in Gaujarat.. > > To see Cassia glauca (Senna glauca) visit Mumbai University garden > (Fort).. some live specimens are there.. > > regards, > > On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Ushadi micromini < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> 1: So what is the final diagnosis of this plant...?? >> >> 2: if its not s. surattensis ... should the subject line be changed >> so that whoever takes care of this thread in indiatreepix website >> would have an easy time? >> thanks >> usha di >> =========== >> >> On Dec 8, 7:54 pm, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Yes Dinesh ji >> > >> > -- >> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> > Retired Associate Professor >> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > Many many thanks, Gurcharan ji for resolving this ID. >> > >> > > Your revised note would read: >> > > "We should now wait for some one uploading leaves with 6-9 pairs of >> > > leaflets, smaller leaflets shorter than 3.5 cm, shorter leaf (*less >> than 15 >> > > cm long*) and shorter pod (7-10 cm long) the true *Senna >> surattensis*." >> > >> > > Regards. >> > > Dinesh >> > >> > > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected] >> >wrote: >> > >> > > Dinesh ji please read leaves shorter than 15 cm in S. surattensis >> > >> > >> -- >> > >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> > >> Retired Associate Professor >> > >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> > >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> > >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> > >>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:10 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected] >> >wrote: >> > >> > >>> Yes Dinesh both your plant, and uploaded by me today, and others as >> > >>> Senna surattensis should all belong to Senna sulfurea. Occurrence >> of gland >> > >>> in third pair is no issue as both Revised Handbook of Ceylone and >> Flora of >> > >>> Pakistan mention glands between lower 2-4 pairs of leaflets. I got >> slightly >> > >>> confused with smaller size of leaflets in your cropped image but >> those in >> > >>> your original upload match mine. >> > >> > >>> We should now wait for some one uploading leaves with 6-9 pairs of >> > >>> leaflets, smaller leaflets shorter than 3.5 cm, shorter leaf (less >> than 10 >> > >>> cm long) and shorter pod (7-10 cm long) the true Senna surattensis. >> > >> > >>> -- >> > >>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> > >>> Retired Associate Professor >> > >>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> > >>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> > >>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> > >>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> > >> > >>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:40 PM, Dinesh Valke < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > >>>> Gurcharan ji, >> > >> > >>>> Your analysis prompted me to go through the Senna PDF (Flora of >> China) >> > >>>>http://flora.huh.harvard.edu/china/PDF/PDF10/Senna.pdf... the plant >> > >>>> in my upload is quite close to *Senna sulfurea* (Collad.) >> H.S.Irwin & >> > >>>> Barneby (syn. *Cassia glauca* Lam.) >> > >> > >>>> Seeking clarification regarding these two points: >> > >>>> 1) the stipules in my plant ... can they be considered as linear ? >> > >>>> 2) the clavate glands on rachis between each of lowest 3 pairs of >> > >>>> leaflets ... in description, put as 2 ... can it be considered as >> possible >> > >>>> variation ? >> > >> > >>>> Have re-attached the relevant image files for ready reference. >> > >> > >>>> If the considerations are positive, then my plant must be *Senna >> > >>>> sulfurea* (Collad.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby ... though aware that >> *Cassia >> > >>>> glauca* Lam. is treated differently by the top organizations. >> > >> > >>>> Your thoughts. >> > >> > >>>> Regards. >> > >>>> Dinesh >> > >> > >>>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:21 AM, Gurcharan Singh < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > >>>>> Dinesh ji >> > >>>>> Perhaps the whole situation has to be looked carefully. Flora of >> China >> > >>>>> seems to be very confident about number of leaflets 4-6 pairs >> (usually 5 >> > >>>>> pairs) and C. glauca as synonym of S. sulphurea., whereas those >> unaware of >> > >>>>> S. sulphurea (Fl Pakistan, Hortus Third) who simply treat C. >> glauca as >> > >>>>> ynonym of S. surattensis directly mention 4-10 pairs of leaflets >> in the >> > >>>>> species. The Plant List follows Flora of Cgina whereas GRIN >> treats S. >> > >>>>> sulfurea a S. surattensis subsp. sulfurea (DC. ex Collad.) >> Randell (a 1989 >> > >>>>> publication whereas Irwin & Barneby combination as Senna sulfurea >> is 1982). >> > >>>>> It seems that Cassia glauca Lamk. described in Flora of British >> India >> > >>>>> (although leaflet number is not mentioned) should be Senna >> sulfurea wherea >> > >>>>> Cassia glauca var. suffruticosa Koenig. (C. suffruticosa Wall. >> Cassia >> > >>>>> speciosa Roxb; with 16-18 smaller leaflets) is true Senna >> surattensis. >> > >>>>> Perhaps some one has to find this true Senna surattensis with (6-9 >> > >>>>> pairs of leaflets; leaflets 2.5-5 cm, obtuse at tip) as against >> we usually >> > >>>>> find S. sulfurea (C. glauca) with 4-6 pairs of larger leaflets (4 >> to 10 cm >> > >>>>> long), which most of us are finding and uploading. >> > >> > >>>>> -- >> > >>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> > >>>>> Retired Associate Professor >> > >>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> > >>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> > >>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> > >>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> > >> > >>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 10:56 PM, Dinesh Valke < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > >>>>>> Many thanks Gurcharan ji for validating this ID. >> > >>>>>> Had earlier (long back) labelled it as *Cassia glauca* >> > >> > >>>>>> The single photo of Jun 21, 2007 is one of the same plants that >> was >> > >>>>>> photographed after two years on Aug 22, 2009. >> > >>>>>> 5 pairs of leaflets, their sizes uniformly increasing as they >> near >> > >>>>>> the tip of the stalk. >> > >>>>>> The size of the leaflets, relatively has reduced, with the plant >> > >>>>>> maturing. >> > >>>>>> In the matured plant, the largest leaflet measures about 20 - 25 >> mm, >> > >>>>>> the entire leaf about 10 - 12 cm. >> > >>>>>> The seedpod measures about 12 - 15 cm long X 10 - 12 mm wide, >> > >>>>>> comprising about 18 - 20 seeds. >> > >> > >>>>>> Posting more attachments (cropped versions of already attached >> > >>>>>> photos); perhaps may help in getting to the ID. >> > >> > >>>>>> Regards. >> > >>>>>> Dinesh >> > >> > >>>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Gurcharan Singh < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > >>>>>>> I wonder whether this should be Senna sulfurea (4-6 pairs of >> > >>>>>>> leaflets; leaves 15-30 cm long; stalk of fruit 10-20 mm long) >> or Senna >> > >>>>>>> surattensis (leaflets 6-9 pairs; leaves 10-15 cm long; stalk of >> fruit 6-7 >> > >>>>>>> mm long). I wonder if we really have true Senna surattensis in >> India. I >> > >>>>>>> would be happy if some one uploads one. >> > >> > >>>>>>> -- >> > >>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> > >>>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >> > >>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> > >>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> > >>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> > >>>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> > >> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Dinesh Valke < >> [email protected] >> > >>>>>>> > wrote: >> > >> > >>>>>>>> *Senna surattensis * (Burm.f.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby >> > >> > >>>>>>>> - *SEN-nuh* -- Latin form of Arabic word for a thorny bush >> > >>>>>>>> *sur-rat-EN-sis* -- of or from Surat (Gujarat, India) >> > >> > >>>>>>>> [image: Senna surattensis]< >> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >> > >>>>>>>> Jun 21, 2007 ... near Yeoor Hills, Thane, Maharashtra >> > >> > >>>>>>>> *commonly known as*: glaucous cassia, golden senna, scrambled >> egg >> > >>>>>>>> tree, Singapore shower, smooth senna, sulphur-flowered senna, >> sunshine >> > >>>>>>>> tree, Surat senna • *Gujarati*: કાસીદ kasid • *Kannada*: >> ಬೆಟ್ಟದವರೆ >> > >>>>>>>> bettadavare • *Marathi*: मोठा तरवड motha tarvad • *Tamil*: >> > >>>>>>>> குண்டுப்பூக்கொன்றை kuntu-p-pu-k-konrai, மஞ்சட்கொன்றை >> mancat-konrai, >> > >>>>>>>> வெள்ளைத்தகரை vellai-t-takarai, வெள்ளாவிரை vel-l-avirai, >> வெண்டகரை ventakarai >> > >>>>>>>> • *Telugu*: మెట్ట తంగేడు metta tangedu >> > >> > >>>>>>>> *Native to*: India, Sri Lanka >> > >> > >>>>>>>> *more views*: >> > >> > >>>>>>>> - Aug 22, 2009 ... near Yeoor Hills, Thane, Maharashtra >> > >>>>>>>> [image: Sulphur-flowered Senna]< >> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >> [image: >> > >>>>>>>> Glaucous Cassia]< >> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >> [image: >> > >>>>>>>> Surat Senna]< >> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >> [image: >> > >>>>>>>> Metta Tangedu (Telugu: మెట్ట తంగేడు)]< >> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >> [image: >> > >>>>>>>> Golden Senna]< >> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >> [image: >> > >>>>>>>> Bettadavare (Kannada: ಬೆಟ್ಟದವರೆ)]< >> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >> > >> > >>>>>>>> Regards. >> > >>>>>>>> Dinesh >> > > > > -- > - H.S. > > A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart of > stone > >
