Yes, its very confusing, for the time being, i do not understand why Cassia glauca not consider for combination under Senna inspite of earlier priority (1785), whereas sulfurea (1816)..
I guess many authors treated Cassia glauca as Cassia surrattensis wrongly many a time,, that created much confusion.. even i guess Cassia suffruticosa is synonym of Cassia surattensis will search for more details and inform all about the species whatever i come through literature regards, On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear H S > No one denies the fact that Senna surratensis is present in India > The confusion has arisen because most books consider C. glauca as synonym > of Senna surattensis, and leaflet number is written as 4-9 pair. Let us for > a moment discard our fixed ideas and go to Flora of British India, which > also had confusion about the synonymy but had two taxa in mind" > > Cassia glauca: tall tree, with 15-25 cm long leaves, 5-10 cm long > (although leaflet number is not mentioned simply saying 16-18 in var. > suffruticosa is more numerous means they are less than 16) > > Cassia glauca var. suffruticosa: leaflets 16-18, smaller more numerous, > 2.5-5 cm long; flowers and pod much smaller, pod not more than 10 cm long. > > Now compare this with Flora of China > > *Senna sulfurea*: leaflets 4-6 pairs, 4-10 cm long, ; leaves 15-30 cm > long; pod 12-20 cm long, > : > *Senna surattensis:* Leaflets 6-9 pairs, 2-5 cm long; leaves 10-15 cm; > pod 7-10 cm > > Now compare this with Flora of British India and decide. Flora of China > describes both as shrubs or small trees, so does Handbook of Flora of > Ceylone. > > We have to realise that there is confusion in literature and we will come > out of it with careful analysis of facts and not what we think about the > plant. My plant of Senna sulfurea is still labelled as S. surattensis, but > we hve to accept facts as they emerge. > > I would be happy if you provide some concrete evidence to support if you > think otherwise. > > And ye inspite of several confusions,The Plant list treats Cassia > suffruticosa as synonym of S. surattensis and not S. sulfurea > > For once let us agree with Flora of China, a very recent Flora, forget > every other thing and see where our specimens fit: Senna sulfurea or Senna > surattensis. > > > > > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > > On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 10:15 AM, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> to me it look like *Senna surattensis *(Burm.f.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby, it >> is planted as an avenue tree in Navi Mumbai and Thane few year ago,, >> whereas Cassia glauca is an shrub, no doubt they both look quite similar, >> but can be differentiated once the plant sample is in your hand.. >> >> yes very much Senna surattensis present in India and surattensis name >> itself is the prove that name after Surat in Gaujarat.. >> >> To see Cassia glauca (Senna glauca) visit Mumbai University garden >> (Fort).. some live specimens are there.. >> >> regards, >> >> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Ushadi micromini < >> microminipho...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> 1: So what is the final diagnosis of this plant...?? >>> >>> 2: if its not s. surattensis ... should the subject line be changed >>> so that whoever takes care of this thread in indiatreepix website >>> would have an easy time? >>> thanks >>> usha di >>> =========== >>> >>> On Dec 8, 7:54 pm, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > Yes Dinesh ji >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> > Retired Associate Professor >>> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Dinesh Valke <dinesh.va...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> > > Many many thanks, Gurcharan ji for resolving this ID. >>> > >>> > > Your revised note would read: >>> > > "We should now wait for some one uploading leaves with 6-9 pairs of >>> > > leaflets, smaller leaflets shorter than 3.5 cm, shorter leaf (*less >>> than 15 >>> > > cm long*) and shorter pod (7-10 cm long) the true *Senna >>> surattensis*." >>> > >>> > > Regards. >>> > > Dinesh >>> > >>> > > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com >>> >wrote: >>> > >>> > > Dinesh ji please read leaves shorter than 15 cm in S. surattensis >>> > >>> > >> -- >>> > >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> > >> Retired Associate Professor >>> > >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> > >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> > >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> > >>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> > >>> > >> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:10 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com >>> >wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> Yes Dinesh both your plant, and uploaded by me today, and others as >>> > >>> Senna surattensis should all belong to Senna sulfurea. Occurrence >>> of gland >>> > >>> in third pair is no issue as both Revised Handbook of Ceylone and >>> Flora of >>> > >>> Pakistan mention glands between lower 2-4 pairs of leaflets. I got >>> slightly >>> > >>> confused with smaller size of leaflets in your cropped image but >>> those in >>> > >>> your original upload match mine. >>> > >>> > >>> We should now wait for some one uploading leaves with 6-9 pairs of >>> > >>> leaflets, smaller leaflets shorter than 3.5 cm, shorter leaf (less >>> than 10 >>> > >>> cm long) and shorter pod (7-10 cm long) the true Senna surattensis. >>> > >>> > >>> -- >>> > >>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> > >>> Retired Associate Professor >>> > >>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> > >>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> > >>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> > >>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:40 PM, Dinesh Valke < >>> dinesh.va...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> > >>> > >>>> Gurcharan ji, >>> > >>> > >>>> Your analysis prompted me to go through the Senna PDF (Flora of >>> China) >>> > >>>>http://flora.huh.harvard.edu/china/PDF/PDF10/Senna.pdf... the >>> plant >>> > >>>> in my upload is quite close to *Senna sulfurea* (Collad.) >>> H.S.Irwin & >>> > >>>> Barneby (syn. *Cassia glauca* Lam.) >>> > >>> > >>>> Seeking clarification regarding these two points: >>> > >>>> 1) the stipules in my plant ... can they be considered as linear ? >>> > >>>> 2) the clavate glands on rachis between each of lowest 3 pairs of >>> > >>>> leaflets ... in description, put as 2 ... can it be considered as >>> possible >>> > >>>> variation ? >>> > >>> > >>>> Have re-attached the relevant image files for ready reference. >>> > >>> > >>>> If the considerations are positive, then my plant must be *Senna >>> > >>>> sulfurea* (Collad.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby ... though aware that >>> *Cassia >>> > >>>> glauca* Lam. is treated differently by the top organizations. >>> > >>> > >>>> Your thoughts. >>> > >>> > >>>> Regards. >>> > >>>> Dinesh >>> > >>> > >>>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:21 AM, Gurcharan Singh < >>> singh...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> > >>> > >>>>> Dinesh ji >>> > >>>>> Perhaps the whole situation has to be looked carefully. Flora of >>> China >>> > >>>>> seems to be very confident about number of leaflets 4-6 pairs >>> (usually 5 >>> > >>>>> pairs) and C. glauca as synonym of S. sulphurea., whereas those >>> unaware of >>> > >>>>> S. sulphurea (Fl Pakistan, Hortus Third) who simply treat C. >>> glauca as >>> > >>>>> ynonym of S. surattensis directly mention 4-10 pairs of leaflets >>> in the >>> > >>>>> species. The Plant List follows Flora of Cgina whereas GRIN >>> treats S. >>> > >>>>> sulfurea a S. surattensis subsp. sulfurea (DC. ex Collad.) >>> Randell (a 1989 >>> > >>>>> publication whereas Irwin & Barneby combination as Senna >>> sulfurea is 1982). >>> > >>>>> It seems that Cassia glauca Lamk. described in Flora of British >>> India >>> > >>>>> (although leaflet number is not mentioned) should be Senna >>> sulfurea wherea >>> > >>>>> Cassia glauca var. suffruticosa Koenig. (C. suffruticosa Wall. >>> Cassia >>> > >>>>> speciosa Roxb; with 16-18 smaller leaflets) is true Senna >>> surattensis. >>> > >>>>> Perhaps some one has to find this true Senna surattensis with >>> (6-9 >>> > >>>>> pairs of leaflets; leaflets 2.5-5 cm, obtuse at tip) as against >>> we usually >>> > >>>>> find S. sulfurea (C. glauca) with 4-6 pairs of larger leaflets >>> (4 to 10 cm >>> > >>>>> long), which most of us are finding and uploading. >>> > >>> > >>>>> -- >>> > >>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> > >>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>> > >>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> > >>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> > >>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> > >>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> > >>> > >>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 10:56 PM, Dinesh Valke < >>> dinesh.va...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> > >>> > >>>>>> Many thanks Gurcharan ji for validating this ID. >>> > >>>>>> Had earlier (long back) labelled it as *Cassia glauca* >>> > >>> > >>>>>> The single photo of Jun 21, 2007 is one of the same plants that >>> was >>> > >>>>>> photographed after two years on Aug 22, 2009. >>> > >>>>>> 5 pairs of leaflets, their sizes uniformly increasing as they >>> near >>> > >>>>>> the tip of the stalk. >>> > >>>>>> The size of the leaflets, relatively has reduced, with the plant >>> > >>>>>> maturing. >>> > >>>>>> In the matured plant, the largest leaflet measures about 20 - >>> 25 mm, >>> > >>>>>> the entire leaf about 10 - 12 cm. >>> > >>>>>> The seedpod measures about 12 - 15 cm long X 10 - 12 mm wide, >>> > >>>>>> comprising about 18 - 20 seeds. >>> > >>> > >>>>>> Posting more attachments (cropped versions of already attached >>> > >>>>>> photos); perhaps may help in getting to the ID. >>> > >>> > >>>>>> Regards. >>> > >>>>>> Dinesh >>> > >>> > >>>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Gurcharan Singh < >>> singh...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> > >>> > >>>>>>> I wonder whether this should be Senna sulfurea (4-6 pairs of >>> > >>>>>>> leaflets; leaves 15-30 cm long; stalk of fruit 10-20 mm long) >>> or Senna >>> > >>>>>>> surattensis (leaflets 6-9 pairs; leaves 10-15 cm long; stalk >>> of fruit 6-7 >>> > >>>>>>> mm long). I wonder if we really have true Senna surattensis in >>> India. I >>> > >>>>>>> would be happy if some one uploads one. >>> > >>> > >>>>>>> -- >>> > >>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> > >>>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>> > >>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> > >>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> > >>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> > >>>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> > >>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Dinesh Valke < >>> dinesh.va...@gmail.com >>> > >>>>>>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> *Senna surattensis * (Burm.f.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> - *SEN-nuh* -- Latin form of Arabic word for a thorny bush >>> > >>>>>>>> *sur-rat-EN-sis* -- of or from Surat (Gujarat, India) >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> [image: Senna surattensis]< >>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi.. >>> .> >>> > >>>>>>>> Jun 21, 2007 ... near Yeoor Hills, Thane, Maharashtra >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> *commonly known as*: glaucous cassia, golden senna, scrambled >>> egg >>> > >>>>>>>> tree, Singapore shower, smooth senna, sulphur-flowered senna, >>> sunshine >>> > >>>>>>>> tree, Surat senna • *Gujarati*: કાસીદ kasid • *Kannada*: >>> ಬೆಟ್ಟದವರೆ >>> > >>>>>>>> bettadavare • *Marathi*: मोठा तरवड motha tarvad • *Tamil*: >>> > >>>>>>>> குண்டுப்பூக்கொன்றை kuntu-p-pu-k-konrai, மஞ்சட்கொன்றை >>> mancat-konrai, >>> > >>>>>>>> வெள்ளைத்தகரை vellai-t-takarai, வெள்ளாவிரை vel-l-avirai, >>> வெண்டகரை ventakarai >>> > >>>>>>>> • *Telugu*: మెట్ట తంగేడు metta tangedu >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> *Native to*: India, Sri Lanka >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> *more views*: >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> - Aug 22, 2009 ... near Yeoor Hills, Thane, Maharashtra >>> > >>>>>>>> [image: Sulphur-flowered Senna]< >>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>> [image: >>> > >>>>>>>> Glaucous Cassia]< >>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>> [image: >>> > >>>>>>>> Surat Senna]< >>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>> [image: >>> > >>>>>>>> Metta Tangedu (Telugu: మెట్ట తంగేడు)]< >>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>> [image: >>> > >>>>>>>> Golden Senna]< >>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>> [image: >>> > >>>>>>>> Bettadavare (Kannada: ಬೆಟ್ಟದವರೆ)]< >>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi.. >>> .> >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> Regards. >>> > >>>>>>>> Dinesh >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> - H.S. >> >> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart >> of stone >> >> > > > -- - H.S. A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart of stone
