Dear H S Perhaps I got the answer too soon Cassia glauca Lam. could not be used as basionnym as name Senna glauca Roxb, already existed for a species which is synonym for Senna timoriensis (DC.) Irwin & Barneby (based on Cassia timoriensis DC,) and a combination under Senna based on Cassia glauca would have made it a later homonym. Later homonyms are rejected even if the earlier name (in this case Senna glauca DC.) is not accepted name.
-- Dr. Gurcharan Singh Retired Associate Professor SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes H S, that is a million dollar question > Why Cassia sufurea Collad. (1816) as basionym and not Cassia glauca Lam. > (1783) > Perhaps some one will explore the clue, if original paper by Irwin and > Barneby can be found. > > > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 3:55 PM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Yes, its very confusing, for the time being, i do not understand why >> Cassia glauca not consider for combination under Senna inspite of earlier >> priority (1785), whereas sulfurea (1816).. >> >> I guess many authors treated Cassia glauca as Cassia surrattensis wrongly >> many a time,, that created much confusion.. >> >> even i guess Cassia suffruticosa is synonym of Cassia surattensis >> >> will search for more details and inform all about the species whatever i >> come through literature >> >> regards, >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> Dear H S >>> No one denies the fact that Senna surratensis is present in India >>> The confusion has arisen because most books consider C. glauca as >>> synonym of Senna surattensis, and leaflet number is written as 4-9 pair. >>> Let us for a moment discard our fixed ideas and go to Flora of British >>> India, which also had confusion about the synonymy but had two taxa in mind" >>> >>> Cassia glauca: tall tree, with 15-25 cm long leaves, 5-10 cm long >>> (although leaflet number is not mentioned simply saying 16-18 in var. >>> suffruticosa is more numerous means they are less than 16) >>> >>> Cassia glauca var. suffruticosa: leaflets 16-18, smaller more numerous, >>> 2.5-5 cm long; flowers and pod much smaller, pod not more than 10 cm long. >>> >>> Now compare this with Flora of China >>> >>> *Senna sulfurea*: leaflets 4-6 pairs, 4-10 cm long, ; leaves 15-30 cm >>> long; pod 12-20 cm long, >>> : >>> *Senna surattensis:* Leaflets 6-9 pairs, 2-5 cm long; leaves 10-15 cm; >>> pod 7-10 cm >>> >>> Now compare this with Flora of British India and decide. Flora of China >>> describes both as shrubs or small trees, so does Handbook of Flora of >>> Ceylone. >>> >>> We have to realise that there is confusion in literature and we will >>> come out of it with careful analysis of facts and not what we think about >>> the plant. My plant of Senna sulfurea is still labelled as S. surattensis, >>> but we hve to accept facts as they emerge. >>> >>> I would be happy if you provide some concrete evidence to support if you >>> think otherwise. >>> >>> And ye inspite of several confusions,The Plant list treats Cassia >>> suffruticosa as synonym of S. surattensis and not S. sulfurea >>> >>> For once let us agree with Flora of China, a very recent Flora, forget >>> every other thing and see where our specimens fit: Senna sulfurea or Senna >>> surattensis. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> Retired Associate Professor >>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 10:15 AM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> to me it look like *Senna surattensis *(Burm.f.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby, >>>> it is planted as an avenue tree in Navi Mumbai and Thane few year ago,, >>>> whereas Cassia glauca is an shrub, no doubt they both look quite similar, >>>> but can be differentiated once the plant sample is in your hand.. >>>> >>>> yes very much Senna surattensis present in India and surattensis name >>>> itself is the prove that name after Surat in Gaujarat.. >>>> >>>> To see Cassia glauca (Senna glauca) visit Mumbai University garden >>>> (Fort).. some live specimens are there.. >>>> >>>> regards, >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Ushadi micromini < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> 1: So what is the final diagnosis of this plant...?? >>>>> >>>>> 2: if its not s. surattensis ... should the subject line be changed >>>>> so that whoever takes care of this thread in indiatreepix website >>>>> would have an easy time? >>>>> thanks >>>>> usha di >>>>> =========== >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 8, 7:54 pm, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> > Yes Dinesh ji >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>> > Retired Associate Professor >>>>> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>> > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > > Many many thanks, Gurcharan ji for resolving this ID. >>>>> > >>>>> > > Your revised note would read: >>>>> > > "We should now wait for some one uploading leaves with 6-9 pairs of >>>>> > > leaflets, smaller leaflets shorter than 3.5 cm, shorter leaf >>>>> (*less than 15 >>>>> > > cm long*) and shorter pod (7-10 cm long) the true *Senna >>>>> surattensis*." >>>>> > >>>>> > > Regards. >>>>> > > Dinesh >>>>> > >>>>> > > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > > Dinesh ji please read leaves shorter than 15 cm in S. surattensis >>>>> > >>>>> > >> -- >>>>> > >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>> > >> Retired Associate Professor >>>>> > >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>> > >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>> > >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>> > >>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>> > >>>>> > >> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:10 PM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> Yes Dinesh both your plant, and uploaded by me today, and others >>>>> as >>>>> > >>> Senna surattensis should all belong to Senna sulfurea. >>>>> Occurrence of gland >>>>> > >>> in third pair is no issue as both Revised Handbook of Ceylone >>>>> and Flora of >>>>> > >>> Pakistan mention glands between lower 2-4 pairs of leaflets. I >>>>> got slightly >>>>> > >>> confused with smaller size of leaflets in your cropped image but >>>>> those in >>>>> > >>> your original upload match mine. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> We should now wait for some one uploading leaves with 6-9 pairs >>>>> of >>>>> > >>> leaflets, smaller leaflets shorter than 3.5 cm, shorter leaf >>>>> (less than 10 >>>>> > >>> cm long) and shorter pod (7-10 cm long) the true Senna >>>>> surattensis. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> -- >>>>> > >>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>> > >>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>> > >>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>> > >>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>> > >>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>> > >>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:40 PM, Dinesh Valke < >>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Gurcharan ji, >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Your analysis prompted me to go through the Senna PDF (Flora of >>>>> China) >>>>> > >>>>http://flora.huh.harvard.edu/china/PDF/PDF10/Senna.pdf... the >>>>> plant >>>>> > >>>> in my upload is quite close to *Senna sulfurea* (Collad.) >>>>> H.S.Irwin & >>>>> > >>>> Barneby (syn. *Cassia glauca* Lam.) >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Seeking clarification regarding these two points: >>>>> > >>>> 1) the stipules in my plant ... can they be considered as >>>>> linear ? >>>>> > >>>> 2) the clavate glands on rachis between each of lowest 3 pairs >>>>> of >>>>> > >>>> leaflets ... in description, put as 2 ... can it be considered >>>>> as possible >>>>> > >>>> variation ? >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Have re-attached the relevant image files for ready reference. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> If the considerations are positive, then my plant must be *Senna >>>>> > >>>> sulfurea* (Collad.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby ... though aware that >>>>> *Cassia >>>>> > >>>> glauca* Lam. is treated differently by the top organizations. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Your thoughts. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Regards. >>>>> > >>>> Dinesh >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:21 AM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Dinesh ji >>>>> > >>>>> Perhaps the whole situation has to be looked carefully. Flora >>>>> of China >>>>> > >>>>> seems to be very confident about number of leaflets 4-6 pairs >>>>> (usually 5 >>>>> > >>>>> pairs) and C. glauca as synonym of S. sulphurea., whereas >>>>> those unaware of >>>>> > >>>>> S. sulphurea (Fl Pakistan, Hortus Third) who simply treat C. >>>>> glauca as >>>>> > >>>>> ynonym of S. surattensis directly mention 4-10 pairs of >>>>> leaflets in the >>>>> > >>>>> species. The Plant List follows Flora of Cgina whereas GRIN >>>>> treats S. >>>>> > >>>>> sulfurea a S. surattensis subsp. sulfurea (DC. ex Collad.) >>>>> Randell (a 1989 >>>>> > >>>>> publication whereas Irwin & Barneby combination as Senna >>>>> sulfurea is 1982). >>>>> > >>>>> It seems that Cassia glauca Lamk. described in Flora of >>>>> British India >>>>> > >>>>> (although leaflet number is not mentioned) should be Senna >>>>> sulfurea wherea >>>>> > >>>>> Cassia glauca var. suffruticosa Koenig. (C. suffruticosa >>>>> Wall. Cassia >>>>> > >>>>> speciosa Roxb; with 16-18 smaller leaflets) is true Senna >>>>> surattensis. >>>>> > >>>>> Perhaps some one has to find this true Senna surattensis with >>>>> (6-9 >>>>> > >>>>> pairs of leaflets; leaflets 2.5-5 cm, obtuse at tip) as >>>>> against we usually >>>>> > >>>>> find S. sulfurea (C. glauca) with 4-6 pairs of larger leaflets >>>>> (4 to 10 cm >>>>> > >>>>> long), which most of us are finding and uploading. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- >>>>> > >>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>> > >>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>> > >>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>> > >>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>> > >>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>> > >>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 10:56 PM, Dinesh Valke < >>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Many thanks Gurcharan ji for validating this ID. >>>>> > >>>>>> Had earlier (long back) labelled it as *Cassia glauca* >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> The single photo of Jun 21, 2007 is one of the same plants >>>>> that was >>>>> > >>>>>> photographed after two years on Aug 22, 2009. >>>>> > >>>>>> 5 pairs of leaflets, their sizes uniformly increasing as they >>>>> near >>>>> > >>>>>> the tip of the stalk. >>>>> > >>>>>> The size of the leaflets, relatively has reduced, with the >>>>> plant >>>>> > >>>>>> maturing. >>>>> > >>>>>> In the matured plant, the largest leaflet measures about 20 - >>>>> 25 mm, >>>>> > >>>>>> the entire leaf about 10 - 12 cm. >>>>> > >>>>>> The seedpod measures about 12 - 15 cm long X 10 - 12 mm wide, >>>>> > >>>>>> comprising about 18 - 20 seeds. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Posting more attachments (cropped versions of already attached >>>>> > >>>>>> photos); perhaps may help in getting to the ID. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Regards. >>>>> > >>>>>> Dinesh >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> I wonder whether this should be Senna sulfurea (4-6 pairs of >>>>> > >>>>>>> leaflets; leaves 15-30 cm long; stalk of fruit 10-20 mm >>>>> long) or Senna >>>>> > >>>>>>> surattensis (leaflets 6-9 pairs; leaves 10-15 cm long; stalk >>>>> of fruit 6-7 >>>>> > >>>>>>> mm long). I wonder if we really have true Senna surattensis >>>>> in India. I >>>>> > >>>>>>> would be happy if some one uploads one. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> -- >>>>> > >>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>> > >>>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>> > >>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>> > >>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>> > >>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>> > >>>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Dinesh Valke < >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> > >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> *Senna surattensis * (Burm.f.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> - *SEN-nuh* -- Latin form of Arabic word for a thorny >>>>> bush >>>>> > >>>>>>>> *sur-rat-EN-sis* -- of or from Surat (Gujarat, India) >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> [image: Senna surattensis]< >>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi.. >>>>> .> >>>>> > >>>>>>>> Jun 21, 2007 ... near Yeoor Hills, Thane, Maharashtra >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> *commonly known as*: glaucous cassia, golden senna, >>>>> scrambled egg >>>>> > >>>>>>>> tree, Singapore shower, smooth senna, sulphur-flowered >>>>> senna, sunshine >>>>> > >>>>>>>> tree, Surat senna • *Gujarati*: કાસીદ kasid • *Kannada*: >>>>> ಬೆಟ್ಟದವರೆ >>>>> > >>>>>>>> bettadavare • *Marathi*: मोठा तरवड motha tarvad • *Tamil*: >>>>> > >>>>>>>> குண்டுப்பூக்கொன்றை kuntu-p-pu-k-konrai, மஞ்சட்கொன்றை >>>>> mancat-konrai, >>>>> > >>>>>>>> வெள்ளைத்தகரை vellai-t-takarai, வெள்ளாவிரை vel-l-avirai, >>>>> வெண்டகரை ventakarai >>>>> > >>>>>>>> • *Telugu*: మెట్ట తంగేడు metta tangedu >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> *Native to*: India, Sri Lanka >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> *more views*: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> - Aug 22, 2009 ... near Yeoor Hills, Thane, Maharashtra >>>>> > >>>>>>>> [image: Sulphur-flowered Senna]< >>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>>>> [image: >>>>> > >>>>>>>> Glaucous Cassia]< >>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>>>> [image: >>>>> > >>>>>>>> Surat Senna]< >>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>>>> [image: >>>>> > >>>>>>>> Metta Tangedu (Telugu: మెట్ట తంగేడు)]< >>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>>>> [image: >>>>> > >>>>>>>> Golden Senna]< >>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>>>> [image: >>>>> > >>>>>>>> Bettadavare (Kannada: ಬೆಟ್ಟದವರೆ)]< >>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi.. >>>>> .> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>> > >>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> - H.S. >>>> >>>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart >>>> of stone >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> - H.S. >> >> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart >> of stone >> >> > > >
