Thanks sirji for the information.. On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dear H S > Perhaps I got the answer too soon > Cassia glauca Lam. could not be used as basionnym as name Senna glauca > Roxb, already existed for a species which is synonym for Senna timoriensis > (DC.) Irwin & Barneby (based on Cassia timoriensis DC,) and a combination > under Senna based on Cassia glauca would have made it a later homonym. > Later homonyms are rejected even if the earlier name (in this case Senna > glauca DC.) is not accepted name. > > > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Yes H S, that is a million dollar question >> Why Cassia sufurea Collad. (1816) as basionym and not Cassia glauca Lam. >> (1783) >> Perhaps some one will explore the clue, if original paper by Irwin and >> Barneby can be found. >> >> >> -- >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> Retired Associate Professor >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> >> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 3:55 PM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Yes, its very confusing, for the time being, i do not understand why >>> Cassia glauca not consider for combination under Senna inspite of earlier >>> priority (1785), whereas sulfurea (1816).. >>> >>> I guess many authors treated Cassia glauca as Cassia surrattensis >>> wrongly many a time,, that created much confusion.. >>> >>> even i guess Cassia suffruticosa is synonym of Cassia surattensis >>> >>> will search for more details and inform all about the species whatever i >>> come through literature >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> Dear H S >>>> No one denies the fact that Senna surratensis is present in India >>>> The confusion has arisen because most books consider C. glauca as >>>> synonym of Senna surattensis, and leaflet number is written as 4-9 pair. >>>> Let us for a moment discard our fixed ideas and go to Flora of British >>>> India, which also had confusion about the synonymy but had two taxa in >>>> mind" >>>> >>>> Cassia glauca: tall tree, with 15-25 cm long leaves, 5-10 cm long >>>> (although leaflet number is not mentioned simply saying 16-18 in var. >>>> suffruticosa is more numerous means they are less than 16) >>>> >>>> Cassia glauca var. suffruticosa: leaflets 16-18, smaller more numerous, >>>> 2.5-5 cm long; flowers and pod much smaller, pod not more than 10 cm long. >>>> >>>> Now compare this with Flora of China >>>> >>>> *Senna sulfurea*: leaflets 4-6 pairs, 4-10 cm long, ; leaves 15-30 cm >>>> long; pod 12-20 cm long, >>>> : >>>> *Senna surattensis:* Leaflets 6-9 pairs, 2-5 cm long; leaves 10-15 cm; >>>> pod 7-10 cm >>>> >>>> Now compare this with Flora of British India and decide. Flora of China >>>> describes both as shrubs or small trees, so does Handbook of Flora of >>>> Ceylone. >>>> >>>> We have to realise that there is confusion in literature and we will >>>> come out of it with careful analysis of facts and not what we think about >>>> the plant. My plant of Senna sulfurea is still labelled as S. surattensis, >>>> but we hve to accept facts as they emerge. >>>> >>>> I would be happy if you provide some concrete evidence to support if >>>> you think otherwise. >>>> >>>> And ye inspite of several confusions,The Plant list treats Cassia >>>> suffruticosa as synonym of S. surattensis and not S. sulfurea >>>> >>>> For once let us agree with Flora of China, a very recent Flora, forget >>>> every other thing and see where our specimens fit: Senna sulfurea or Senna >>>> surattensis. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 10:15 AM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> to me it look like *Senna surattensis *(Burm.f.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby, >>>>> it is planted as an avenue tree in Navi Mumbai and Thane few year ago,, >>>>> whereas Cassia glauca is an shrub, no doubt they both look quite similar, >>>>> but can be differentiated once the plant sample is in your hand.. >>>>> >>>>> yes very much Senna surattensis present in India and surattensis name >>>>> itself is the prove that name after Surat in Gaujarat.. >>>>> >>>>> To see Cassia glauca (Senna glauca) visit Mumbai University garden >>>>> (Fort).. some live specimens are there.. >>>>> >>>>> regards, >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Ushadi micromini < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> 1: So what is the final diagnosis of this plant...?? >>>>>> >>>>>> 2: if its not s. surattensis ... should the subject line be changed >>>>>> so that whoever takes care of this thread in indiatreepix website >>>>>> would have an easy time? >>>>>> thanks >>>>>> usha di >>>>>> =========== >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 8, 7:54 pm, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> > Yes Dinesh ji >>>>>> > >>>>>> > -- >>>>>> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>> > Retired Associate Professor >>>>>> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>> > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Dinesh Valke < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> > > Many many thanks, Gurcharan ji for resolving this ID. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > > Your revised note would read: >>>>>> > > "We should now wait for some one uploading leaves with 6-9 pairs >>>>>> of >>>>>> > > leaflets, smaller leaflets shorter than 3.5 cm, shorter leaf >>>>>> (*less than 15 >>>>>> > > cm long*) and shorter pod (7-10 cm long) the true *Senna >>>>>> surattensis*." >>>>>> > >>>>>> > > Regards. >>>>>> > > Dinesh >>>>>> > >>>>>> > > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > > Dinesh ji please read leaves shorter than 15 cm in S. surattensis >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >> -- >>>>>> > >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>> > >> Retired Associate Professor >>>>>> > >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>> > >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>> > >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>> > >>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:10 PM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>> Yes Dinesh both your plant, and uploaded by me today, and >>>>>> others as >>>>>> > >>> Senna surattensis should all belong to Senna sulfurea. >>>>>> Occurrence of gland >>>>>> > >>> in third pair is no issue as both Revised Handbook of Ceylone >>>>>> and Flora of >>>>>> > >>> Pakistan mention glands between lower 2-4 pairs of leaflets. I >>>>>> got slightly >>>>>> > >>> confused with smaller size of leaflets in your cropped image >>>>>> but those in >>>>>> > >>> your original upload match mine. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>> We should now wait for some one uploading leaves with 6-9 pairs >>>>>> of >>>>>> > >>> leaflets, smaller leaflets shorter than 3.5 cm, shorter leaf >>>>>> (less than 10 >>>>>> > >>> cm long) and shorter pod (7-10 cm long) the true Senna >>>>>> surattensis. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>> -- >>>>>> > >>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>> > >>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>>> > >>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>> > >>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>> > >>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>> > >>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:40 PM, Dinesh Valke < >>>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> Gurcharan ji, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> Your analysis prompted me to go through the Senna PDF (Flora >>>>>> of China) >>>>>> > >>>>http://flora.huh.harvard.edu/china/PDF/PDF10/Senna.pdf... the >>>>>> plant >>>>>> > >>>> in my upload is quite close to *Senna sulfurea* (Collad.) >>>>>> H.S.Irwin & >>>>>> > >>>> Barneby (syn. *Cassia glauca* Lam.) >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> Seeking clarification regarding these two points: >>>>>> > >>>> 1) the stipules in my plant ... can they be considered as >>>>>> linear ? >>>>>> > >>>> 2) the clavate glands on rachis between each of lowest 3 pairs >>>>>> of >>>>>> > >>>> leaflets ... in description, put as 2 ... can it be considered >>>>>> as possible >>>>>> > >>>> variation ? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> Have re-attached the relevant image files for ready reference. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> If the considerations are positive, then my plant must be >>>>>> *Senna >>>>>> > >>>> sulfurea* (Collad.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby ... though aware that >>>>>> *Cassia >>>>>> > >>>> glauca* Lam. is treated differently by the top organizations. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> Your thoughts. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> Regards. >>>>>> > >>>> Dinesh >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:21 AM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> Dinesh ji >>>>>> > >>>>> Perhaps the whole situation has to be looked carefully. Flora >>>>>> of China >>>>>> > >>>>> seems to be very confident about number of leaflets 4-6 pairs >>>>>> (usually 5 >>>>>> > >>>>> pairs) and C. glauca as synonym of S. sulphurea., whereas >>>>>> those unaware of >>>>>> > >>>>> S. sulphurea (Fl Pakistan, Hortus Third) who simply treat C. >>>>>> glauca as >>>>>> > >>>>> ynonym of S. surattensis directly mention 4-10 pairs of >>>>>> leaflets in the >>>>>> > >>>>> species. The Plant List follows Flora of Cgina whereas GRIN >>>>>> treats S. >>>>>> > >>>>> sulfurea a S. surattensis subsp. sulfurea (DC. ex Collad.) >>>>>> Randell (a 1989 >>>>>> > >>>>> publication whereas Irwin & Barneby combination as Senna >>>>>> sulfurea is 1982). >>>>>> > >>>>> It seems that Cassia glauca Lamk. described in Flora of >>>>>> British India >>>>>> > >>>>> (although leaflet number is not mentioned) should be Senna >>>>>> sulfurea wherea >>>>>> > >>>>> Cassia glauca var. suffruticosa Koenig. (C. suffruticosa >>>>>> Wall. Cassia >>>>>> > >>>>> speciosa Roxb; with 16-18 smaller leaflets) is true Senna >>>>>> surattensis. >>>>>> > >>>>> Perhaps some one has to find this true Senna surattensis with >>>>>> (6-9 >>>>>> > >>>>> pairs of leaflets; leaflets 2.5-5 cm, obtuse at tip) as >>>>>> against we usually >>>>>> > >>>>> find S. sulfurea (C. glauca) with 4-6 pairs of larger >>>>>> leaflets (4 to 10 cm >>>>>> > >>>>> long), which most of us are finding and uploading. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> -- >>>>>> > >>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>> > >>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>>> > >>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>> > >>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>> > >>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>> > >>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 10:56 PM, Dinesh Valke < >>>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Many thanks Gurcharan ji for validating this ID. >>>>>> > >>>>>> Had earlier (long back) labelled it as *Cassia glauca* >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The single photo of Jun 21, 2007 is one of the same plants >>>>>> that was >>>>>> > >>>>>> photographed after two years on Aug 22, 2009. >>>>>> > >>>>>> 5 pairs of leaflets, their sizes uniformly increasing as >>>>>> they near >>>>>> > >>>>>> the tip of the stalk. >>>>>> > >>>>>> The size of the leaflets, relatively has reduced, with the >>>>>> plant >>>>>> > >>>>>> maturing. >>>>>> > >>>>>> In the matured plant, the largest leaflet measures about 20 >>>>>> - 25 mm, >>>>>> > >>>>>> the entire leaf about 10 - 12 cm. >>>>>> > >>>>>> The seedpod measures about 12 - 15 cm long X 10 - 12 mm wide, >>>>>> > >>>>>> comprising about 18 - 20 seeds. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Posting more attachments (cropped versions of already >>>>>> attached >>>>>> > >>>>>> photos); perhaps may help in getting to the ID. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards. >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I wonder whether this should be Senna sulfurea (4-6 pairs of >>>>>> > >>>>>>> leaflets; leaves 15-30 cm long; stalk of fruit 10-20 mm >>>>>> long) or Senna >>>>>> > >>>>>>> surattensis (leaflets 6-9 pairs; leaves 10-15 cm long; >>>>>> stalk of fruit 6-7 >>>>>> > >>>>>>> mm long). I wonder if we really have true Senna surattensis >>>>>> in India. I >>>>>> > >>>>>>> would be happy if some one uploads one. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>>> > >>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>> > >>>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Dinesh Valke < >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> *Senna surattensis * (Burm.f.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> - *SEN-nuh* -- Latin form of Arabic word for a thorny >>>>>> bush >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> *sur-rat-EN-sis* -- of or from Surat (Gujarat, India) >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [image: Senna surattensis]< >>>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi.. >>>>>> .> >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Jun 21, 2007 ... near Yeoor Hills, Thane, Maharashtra >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> *commonly known as*: glaucous cassia, golden senna, >>>>>> scrambled egg >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> tree, Singapore shower, smooth senna, sulphur-flowered >>>>>> senna, sunshine >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> tree, Surat senna • *Gujarati*: કાસીદ kasid • *Kannada*: >>>>>> ಬೆಟ್ಟದವರೆ >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> bettadavare • *Marathi*: मोठा तरवड motha tarvad • *Tamil*: >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> குண்டுப்பூக்கொன்றை kuntu-p-pu-k-konrai, மஞ்சட்கொன்றை >>>>>> mancat-konrai, >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> வெள்ளைத்தகரை vellai-t-takarai, வெள்ளாவிரை vel-l-avirai, >>>>>> வெண்டகரை ventakarai >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> • *Telugu*: మెట్ట తంగేడు metta tangedu >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> *Native to*: India, Sri Lanka >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> *more views*: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> - Aug 22, 2009 ... near Yeoor Hills, Thane, Maharashtra >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [image: Sulphur-flowered Senna]< >>>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>>>>> [image: >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Glaucous Cassia]< >>>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>>>>> [image: >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Surat Senna]< >>>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>>>>> [image: >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Metta Tangedu (Telugu: మెట్ట తంగేడు)]< >>>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>>>>> [image: >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Golden Senna]< >>>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi...> >>>>>> [image: >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Bettadavare (Kannada: ಬೆಟ್ಟದವರೆ)]< >>>>>> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdi.. >>>>>> .> >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> - H.S. >>>>> >>>>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere >>>>> heart of stone >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> - H.S. >>> >>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart >>> of stone >>> >>> >> >> >> > > -- - H.S. A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart of stone
