Just to clear the air guys. I didn't mean to point any finger at anyone. and I was talking in general. if u were offended. don't be. u r not the target. i was talking in general. I just gave my own experience. and one day I was in ur shoes. and Ammar gave me the same exact lecture. and it changed my whole career. to take my advice or ignore it. is totally up to u. there is no gain for me. but if what I said caught one persons attention. then I guess the message served the purpose. the best thing u can teach anyone. is to teach them how to learn. and that is exactly what I learned from Ammar. this is an amazing experience. and trust me when I tell u. it will change ur perspective on things. I say this. and my intentions is not to lecture. and this is the last time I will post smthn like this.
Good luck to u all & God bless On 10/18/07, Khairi Husseini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I am not sure about this one, but I think Zaid was not really talking > about you but rather in general J ;) > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf > Of *Al-Faisal El-Dajani > *Sent:* Thursday, October 18, 2007 12:48 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* [JoPHP] Re: Are database abstraction layers worth it? > > > > /blink ... Somebody lost the reason for this thread along the way. > > Now, I have to disagree with my critiques, because i consider my question > to be extremely plain and straightforward and not "vague", and that it can > NOT be answered by Google'ing or as it was nicely put to RTFM, because i > asked a very specific question "What do YOU think of database abstraction > layers". I did not ask what are they, i did not ask why are they good, i did > not ask why are they evil, and i did not ask anything else regarding > abstraction layers themselves. > > Also, don't patronize us with all that "i've worked on x projects in my > life so consult me", when in the last year and a half you participated in > only 7 threads in this group. To put it in lamen terms, i don't know you, > and i don't know your technical background, so i won't ask you. Earning our > technical respect and having us ask you questions is something earned not > asked for. > > Anyway, some of the input was really helpful. Ammar's latest reply was > truly insightful and helped me figure things out. Ala'a and khairi's > responses at the beginning were also extremely helpful, zaid's guidelines > are worth remembering (on both sides of the equation), and hafez thanx for > bringing up code igniter. > > On 10/18/07, *Khairi Husseini* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Zaid, you�re talking out of my heart� unfortunately the problem you > mentioned is not limited to this group ;) > > When I began programming I used to hate people like us who talked that way > (in good old English said �RTFM�), however once I became a better > programmer and noticed that I do have (at least for our region) an above > average knowledge for someone in my age (and years of experience) people > started to only ask questions rather than �just� look it up anywhere. I > spent the past half year training my colleagues to first look at the manual, > then common forums, then google before they asked me (or anyone else). �A > note by side� Zaid, I loved your answer simply stating the > �guide-line�questions, even I forget from time to time to actually ask > myself, what I > need from a specific component. > > > > Cheers, > > Mozzy > > > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf > Of *zaid emeish > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:29 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* [JoPHP] Re: Are database abstraction layers worth it? > > > > to be honest with u man. and we discussed this on the phone many times. > that these guys don't want to spend time researching. and i think it's not > just their fault. its the educational programming they got in school, > college.... etc. so here is what u need to do guys. there is a business > rule. it's called the 80 - 20 (eighty twenty rule). what this means. in > business 80% of the income is generated by 20% of the customers. and u > should apply this to programming. spend 80% of ur time on research and > reading. and 20% actually programming. and when u have a specific problem > that u can't solve. and can't find the solution on Google (which I doubt). > then come here and ask the question. u have some great great developers here > that have huge knowledge and can help. but you have to ask the right > question. > > Guys I am sorry if I am too honest with u. but if u keep asking vague > questions. u will get vague answers. use this group wisely. Absorb Ammars > knowledge and mine as much as u can. we worked on huge complex projects. and > we can help. but only if u ask the right question and put the right effort. > > --Zaid > > On 10/17/07, *Ammar Ibrahim* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I totally agree on what you've said. > > The problem is that most programmers confuse DB Abstraction Layers, with > Database Wrappers. There are many approaches to simplify, unify & extend > Database functionality. I generally think a DB Abstraction Layer is very > useful if you're developing a *product* that needs to run with different > databases. Managing the differences in SQL dialects is a nightmare! I would > rather use some sort of a layer to handle that, and I certainly wouldn't > write my own, unless I know exactly why I need to do that. > > As far as I know, MDB2 & ADOdb are the two most mature, full fledged > abstraction layers out there. > > That said, it doesn't mean you shouldn't abstract Data Access (Models). > Abstracting data from the application is a must, in MVC terms, that would be > writing models. You can still write excellent models using native DB > functions, e.g. mysql_* > > - Ammar > > On 10/17/07, *zaid emeish* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Ok. for a start. there are no rules in programming. there are only guide > lines. so if you are looking to use a DB layer. you should ask urself a few > questions: > 1- Do I really need a DB layer? > 2- If Do I use one. is it gonna make my job easier? > 3- What exactly do I want this layer to do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Al-Faisal El-Dajani > Phone: +962-7-79 73 70 50 > P.O Box: 140056 > 11814 Amman, Jordan > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Jordan PHP Users Group" group. 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