Sounds like another to add to my soon to read shelf. Currently up there are a book on Kamasutra Philosophy and 'The Land That Could Be: Environmentalism and Democracy in the Twenty-First Century" by William Shutkin. It sounds like Blake's book and the previously mentioned movie come at it from two different directions, but meet in similar places. The idea is a reconciliation...addressing the "distractions", as Blake would call them, and re-integrating them into the wholeness of your being. To be more precise, making peace with all the events of your life, good, bad, indifferent, and their impact upon you as a person.
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 10:15 AM, Molly Brogan <[email protected]>wrote: > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=nt4Bwy6LDrwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=marriage+of+heaven+and+hell > > I think that William Blake's Marriage of Heaven and Hell best > describes it, but he is also talking about that marriage as it occurs > in our lives. > > I also think that being pulled to the state of near death allows us to > recommit to life without the distractions of the joys, regrets etc., > that you refer to Chris. If, during that process, we don't allow our > fear to distract us - we just might be able to imprint a road map back > - because this is the state that the shamans, theologians, druggies > are all pointing themselves toward. I think many of the Christian > traditions, in their own way, are designed to allow us to let go of > our fear and anxiety and travel the path to immortality, union with > God, death, or whatever else you want to call it. Each tradition or > process merely a map to the destination... > > I know that speaking for myself, once that map was imprinted into my > being, it is the feeling of that state that gets me back there faster > than anything else. And as you say, thoughts, memories and other > feelings may come up to distract so getting there may take a certain > amount of letting go. I know that the more anxiety I carry with me in > my daily life, the less ability I have to access these states. > > I have also been blessed to have shared near death experiences with > folks (theirs.) A few have recognized me there, a few have seen me as > someone else they are more emotionally attached to, but described the > event perfectly in every detail, a few did not return so that I have > no way to compare experiences. I don't fear death, never have, so > that may be why I am drawn into the experience. I can say that it > feels like I am being pulled elsewhere very quickly. I was once at > work in my office on the phone with a customer, and pulled into an > operating room. The event lasted about 20 minutes. My friend > survived her double lung transplant and when we compared notes about a > year later, she thought her deceased father was with her. We were > able to witness the donors family waiting in an adjacent lounge and > guess what - once she was put in touch with them they were indeed > those people! > > I knew at the time that she was deciding between life and death and so > did she. What was remarkable to me about this experience was that she > did not look at what waited for her beyond the hospital. It is my > experience that most people who have been at this precipice with me, > are looking for (and given) a knowing of what is next. > > On Feb 16, 10:42 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > One other note on this: > > The idea of heaven or hell I think was best explored in the movie 'Waking > > Life': > > > > http://www.foxstore.com/detail.php?item=438 > > > > The movie posits that heaven or hell is the experience as you die, your > > final second stretching into eternity as your perception of time ceases > to > > be. Thus, as your DMT production spikes, and your prefrontal processes > are > > disconnected from sensory inputs which are shutting down, your logical > > processes are left with only your subconscious in the final moments > before > > death. All joys, regrets, guilts, achievements, pride, love, are all > indexed > > in that final moment, and the angels or demons that await you in your DMT > > tunnel are entirely of your own creation. > > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Chris Jenkins > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > I think those "mini-fugues" you achieve on limited sleep and coffee are > > > most definitely small scale versions of the "spiritual states" you are > > > referring to. > > > Much of the modern resurgence in non-Christian western spirituality is > > > influenced is influenced by various cultures who much to say about the > > > topic. Most of these cultures were shamanic in nature, and made use of > > > psychoactive substances in order to achieve "spiritual transcendence". > The > > > use of these substances as sacrament has been a cultural tradition for > as > > > long as humankind has existed. The only religions which don't are those > > > which prescribe various forms of asceticism, sadism, or masochism, all > which > > > in suitable form can release the the cocktail in question. > > > > > The "Spiritual Experience" is the most intense, amazing, transcendent > > > hallucinogenic experience a human can have. That process has been > > > philosophized and analyzed at length by great minds such as Hoffman, > Leary, > > > Castaneta, and others. The non-random nature of classes of > hallucinogens > > > allows those states to be of use in guided meditation. They serve > purpose in > > > ritual. By disconnecting logical thought processes from the normal > channels > > > of perception, the shaman is forced to face their subconscious. This is > a > > > journey repeated through out all shamanic traditions. > > > > > In much of the Western New Age movement, elements of shamanic > tradition, > > > especially Far Eastern and Native American traditions, have been > > > incorporated into the philosophies, but the psychoactive elements have > all > > > been removed. Three days of fasting on nothing but pemmican and water, > while > > > walking through the desert, followed by a night of peyote tea, is sure > to > > > guarantee a night spent in journey with the Great Spirit. > > > > > That was probably un-necessary history I'm sure, but I wanted to drive > home > > > the fact that it's really only the very modern groups that tell you you > can > > > just pop right out if you try hard enough. Almost everyone else > prescribes a > > > tea, a mushroom, flogging yourself with a whip til you bleed, flogging > > > someone else with a whip til they bleed, or spending a year on a > mountain > > > top drinking water and eating a half cup of rice a day. > > > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> Yes I can imagine that accomplishing that state of OBE on one's own > > >> initiative is quite the feat but I'm sure that it's been realized by > > >> some. I've heard of triathlon participants at or near serious > > >> dehydration levels experiencing a similar state. I know for me the > > >> experience was life changing and still there are days that spend > > >> considerable time reflecting upon it. I can't say that the outcome of > > >> returning has been all that positive as far as short term memory and > > >> overall recall, not to mention a significant loss in pulmonary > > >> ability. There are days of highlighted cerebral activity and others > > >> where I'm not sure who I am after 2 cups of coffee. It's a strange > > >> existence but it still works for me and I'm able to spend time yaking > > >> away in here, so that 's good. I've been dreaming very heavily this > > >> week and trying to peace together meanings if any. There is a lot > > >> going on out there in the beyond. > > > > >> On Feb 16, 4:41 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > ;) You're not getting my DMT levels too high...and you left out > > >> Ketamine! > > >> > What I'm merely stating is that it's not too difficult to understand > > >> what an > > >> > OBE is, nor to have one anytime you feel like. Accomplishing that > state > > >> by > > >> > producing your own DMT is quite a feat, but given what I've seen > well > > >> > trained athletes and martial artists accomplish in altering their > > >> metabolism > > >> > on command, I don't have problem believing it's possible. > > > > >> > " I believe there to be a > > >> > spontaneity aspect of OBE that occurs during spiritual and dream > > >> > states without any influence from DMT." > > > > >> > While you're dreaming? Well blood hell, of course. I can also fly > while > > >> I'm > > >> > dreaming, certainly don't need DMT for that. As for "spiritual > states", > > >> I'm > > >> > not quite sure what you mean by that. If you're talking about being > > >> awake > > >> > and in some sort of trance, I'd refer you back to those chemical > > >> > cocktails...there's loads of research that's quite easy to find on > what > > >> > exactly is going on in the brain in those kinds of "spiritual > > >> states"...and > > >> > ruling out DMT, or one of a small handful of other neurochemicals, > would > > >> be > > >> > a misunderstanding of the processes at play in the brain. > > > > >> > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > >> > > Easy now Bubba, don't get your DMT level up too high!! I didn't > say > > >> > > it was difficult to understand, it's just that you are making a > direct > > >> > > link seemingly (from my fundamentally vacant mental state) > discounting > > >> > > any other cause for OBE, possibly the insinuation was also on my > part, > > >> > > but I did think that your insinuation was that OBE was only > attainable > > >> > > through DMT. Technically OBE's are associated with NDE's but > they > > >> > > are not exclusively confined to that mode. I believe there to be > a > > >> > > spontaneity aspect of OBE that occurs during spiritual and dream > > >> > > states without any influence from DMT. > > >> > > I do understand that you are being supportive of my post when you > are > > >> > > saying that DMT had most likely a great influence on my personal > > >> > > experience and I agree with that assessment, however, there are > other > > >> > > means of inducing OBE, such as Meditative techniques, Mental and > > >> > > Mechanical induction, the Mind Awake Body Asleep state (used by > Thomas > > >> > > Edison), Etc............what I'm saying is that triggers other > than > > >> > > DMT, Dextromethorphan, PCP, and the newest Salvia Divinorum exist. > > > > >> > > On Feb 16, 2:19 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >> > > > I'm not insinuating, I'm stating for the record. > > >> > > > 1. DMT produces an effect that is similar in nature for all > users, > > >> > > differing > > >> > > > only in the perception of the user. It typically begins with the > > >> user > > >> > > > feeling that they are floating out of their body, up towards the > > >> ceiling, > > >> > > > having the impression they are seeing their body and the room, > then > > >> being > > >> > > > drawn towards a tunnel of some sort, passing through the tunnel, > > >> into a > > >> > > > different place which can either be described as "heaven", > "hell", > > >> or > > >> > > some > > >> > > > other type of mythical environment, where they often encounter > > >> "angel", > > >> > > > "demons", "fairies", "aliens", or there supernatural entities, > and > > >> at the > > >> > > > end of said experience, they are drawn back into their bodies. > > > > >> > > > 2. DMT is naturally produced in the human body, and its > production > > >> spikes > > >> > > > during times of extreme duress, most notably near and at death. > > > > >> > > > What's difficult to understand about this? > > > > >> > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > I guess you are insinuating that out of body, astral and other > are > > >> > > > > only affects attainable through DMT. There have been > documented > > >> > > > > stories of people clinically pronounced dead then regaining > > >> > > > > consciousness that remember seeing themselves laying in the > > >> hospital > > >> > > > > bed. These days with advances in cardiac resuscitation the > > >> incidences > > >> > > > > of death and near death experiences are increasing along with > > >> stories > > >> > > > > of the beyond. I myself experienced lung collapse due to > > >> pneumonia, > > >> > > > > of which I was unaware of but perceived to be another back > ache > > >> and > > >> > > > > which I further exacerbated by treating it with muscle > relaxants, > > >> > > > > thereby allowing the pneumonia to progress to the point of the > > >> > > > > collapse. > > > > >> > > > > On Feb 16, 9:20 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected] > > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > > > Slip Disc, there's no reason to dismiss it, when it's been > well > > >> > > > > documented, > > >> > > > > > and fully explained. > > >> > > > > > Google "effects of DiMethylTryptamine". > > > > >> > > > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Slip Disc < > [email protected]> > > >> > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > We can't dismiss the possibility of out of body experience > and > > >> the > > >> > > > > > > occurrence of other phenomena in the death experience, > based > > >> upon > > >> > > > > > > death in the sleep mode. Coming from you Pat, I'm a bit > > >> dismayed as > > >> > > > > > > you should have the wherewithal to explain it better than > I. > > >> > > However, > > >> > > > > > > I can relay a portion of my experience within a coma at > which > > >> time > > >> > > I > > >> > > > > > > did know I was dying, so even in the subconscious mind > there > > >> is > > >> > > > > > > "awareness" of death. Would you rather be awake watching > > >> yourself > > >> > > die > > >> > > > > > > or be a floating apparition watching yourself sleep? > Aside > > >> from > > >> > > that > > >> > > > > > > we can't be sure that a > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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