My first glimpse of what you speak came from reading "Excerpt from Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood" by William Wordsworth. My favorite excerpt, which to this day sends shivers up my spine and into the base of my skull is:
Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting: The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star, Hath had elsewhere its setting, And cometh from afar: Not in entire forgetfulness, And not in utter nakedness, But trailing clouds of glory do we come >From God, who is our home: Heaven lies about us in our infancy! On Feb 17, 8:15 am, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > http://books.google.com/books?id=nt4Bwy6LDrwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=... > > I think that William Blake's Marriage of Heaven and Hell best > describes it, but he is also talking about that marriage as it occurs > in our lives. > > I also think that being pulled to the state of near death allows us to > recommit to life without the distractions of the joys, regrets etc., > that you refer to Chris. If, during that process, we don't allow our > fear to distract us - we just might be able to imprint a road map back > - because this is the state that the shamans, theologians, druggies > are all pointing themselves toward. I think many of the Christian > traditions, in their own way, are designed to allow us to let go of > our fear and anxiety and travel the path to immortality, union with > God, death, or whatever else you want to call it. Each tradition or > process merely a map to the destination... > > I know that speaking for myself, once that map was imprinted into my > being, it is the feeling of that state that gets me back there faster > than anything else. And as you say, thoughts, memories and other > feelings may come up to distract so getting there may take a certain > amount of letting go. I know that the more anxiety I carry with me in > my daily life, the less ability I have to access these states. > > I have also been blessed to have shared near death experiences with > folks (theirs.) A few have recognized me there, a few have seen me as > someone else they are more emotionally attached to, but described the > event perfectly in every detail, a few did not return so that I have > no way to compare experiences. I don't fear death, never have, so > that may be why I am drawn into the experience. I can say that it > feels like I am being pulled elsewhere very quickly. I was once at > work in my office on the phone with a customer, and pulled into an > operating room. The event lasted about 20 minutes. My friend > survived her double lung transplant and when we compared notes about a > year later, she thought her deceased father was with her. We were > able to witness the donors family waiting in an adjacent lounge and > guess what - once she was put in touch with them they were indeed > those people! > > I knew at the time that she was deciding between life and death and so > did she. What was remarkable to me about this experience was that she > did not look at what waited for her beyond the hospital. It is my > experience that most people who have been at this precipice with me, > are looking for (and given) a knowing of what is next. > > On Feb 16, 10:42 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > One other note on this: > > The idea of heaven or hell I think was best explored in the movie 'Waking > > Life': > > >http://www.foxstore.com/detail.php?item=438 > > > The movie posits that heaven or hell is the experience as you die, your > > final second stretching into eternity as your perception of time ceases to > > be. Thus, as your DMT production spikes, and your prefrontal processes are > > disconnected from sensory inputs which are shutting down, your logical > > processes are left with only your subconscious in the final moments before > > death. All joys, regrets, guilts, achievements, pride, love, are all indexed > > in that final moment, and the angels or demons that await you in your DMT > > tunnel are entirely of your own creation. > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Chris Jenkins > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > I think those "mini-fugues" you achieve on limited sleep and coffee are > > > most definitely small scale versions of the "spiritual states" you are > > > referring to. > > > Much of the modern resurgence in non-Christian western spirituality is > > > influenced is influenced by various cultures who much to say about the > > > topic. Most of these cultures were shamanic in nature, and made use of > > > psychoactive substances in order to achieve "spiritual transcendence". The > > > use of these substances as sacrament has been a cultural tradition for as > > > long as humankind has existed. The only religions which don't are those > > > which prescribe various forms of asceticism, sadism, or masochism, all > > > which > > > in suitable form can release the the cocktail in question. > > > > The "Spiritual Experience" is the most intense, amazing, transcendent > > > hallucinogenic experience a human can have. That process has been > > > philosophized and analyzed at length by great minds such as Hoffman, > > > Leary, > > > Castaneta, and others. The non-random nature of classes of hallucinogens > > > allows those states to be of use in guided meditation. They serve purpose > > > in > > > ritual. By disconnecting logical thought processes from the normal > > > channels > > > of perception, the shaman is forced to face their subconscious. This is a > > > journey repeated through out all shamanic traditions. > > > > In much of the Western New Age movement, elements of shamanic tradition, > > > especially Far Eastern and Native American traditions, have been > > > incorporated into the philosophies, but the psychoactive elements have all > > > been removed. Three days of fasting on nothing but pemmican and water, > > > while > > > walking through the desert, followed by a night of peyote tea, is sure to > > > guarantee a night spent in journey with the Great Spirit. > > > > That was probably un-necessary history I'm sure, but I wanted to drive > > > home > > > the fact that it's really only the very modern groups that tell you you > > > can > > > just pop right out if you try hard enough. Almost everyone else > > > prescribes a > > > tea, a mushroom, flogging yourself with a whip til you bleed, flogging > > > someone else with a whip til they bleed, or spending a year on a mountain > > > top drinking water and eating a half cup of rice a day. > > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Yes I can imagine that accomplishing that state of OBE on one's own > > >> initiative is quite the feat but I'm sure that it's been realized by > > >> some. I've heard of triathlon participants at or near serious > > >> dehydration levels experiencing a similar state. I know for me the > > >> experience was life changing and still there are days that spend > > >> considerable time reflecting upon it. I can't say that the outcome of > > >> returning has been all that positive as far as short term memory and > > >> overall recall, not to mention a significant loss in pulmonary > > >> ability. There are days of highlighted cerebral activity and others > > >> where I'm not sure who I am after 2 cups of coffee. It's a strange > > >> existence but it still works for me and I'm able to spend time yaking > > >> away in here, so that 's good. I've been dreaming very heavily this > > >> week and trying to peace together meanings if any. There is a lot > > >> going on out there in the beyond. > > > >> On Feb 16, 4:41 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > ;) You're not getting my DMT levels too high...and you left out > > >> Ketamine! > > >> > What I'm merely stating is that it's not too difficult to understand > > >> what an > > >> > OBE is, nor to have one anytime you feel like. Accomplishing that state > > >> by > > >> > producing your own DMT is quite a feat, but given what I've seen well > > >> > trained athletes and martial artists accomplish in altering their > > >> metabolism > > >> > on command, I don't have problem believing it's possible. > > > >> > " I believe there to be a > > >> > spontaneity aspect of OBE that occurs during spiritual and dream > > >> > states without any influence from DMT." > > > >> > While you're dreaming? Well blood hell, of course. I can also fly while > > >> I'm > > >> > dreaming, certainly don't need DMT for that. As for "spiritual states", > > >> I'm > > >> > not quite sure what you mean by that. If you're talking about being > > >> awake > > >> > and in some sort of trance, I'd refer you back to those chemical > > >> > cocktails...there's loads of research that's quite easy to find on what > > >> > exactly is going on in the brain in those kinds of "spiritual > > >> states"...and > > >> > ruling out DMT, or one of a small handful of other neurochemicals, > > >> > would > > >> be > > >> > a misunderstanding of the processes at play in the brain. > > > >> > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > > Easy now Bubba, don't get your DMT level up too high!! I didn't say > > >> > > it was difficult to understand, it's just that you are making a > > >> > > direct > > >> > > link seemingly (from my fundamentally vacant mental state) > > >> > > discounting > > >> > > any other cause for OBE, possibly the insinuation was also on my > > >> > > part, > > >> > > but I did think that your insinuation was that OBE was only > > >> > > attainable > > >> > > through DMT. Technically OBE's are associated with NDE's but they > > >> > > are not exclusively confined to that mode. I believe there to be a > > >> > > spontaneity aspect of OBE that occurs during spiritual and dream > > >> > > states without any influence from DMT. > > >> > > I do understand that you are being supportive of my post when you are > > >> > > saying that DMT had most likely a great influence on my personal > > >> > > experience and I agree with that assessment, however, there are other > > >> > > means of inducing OBE, such as Meditative techniques, Mental and > > >> > > Mechanical induction, the Mind Awake Body Asleep state (used by > > >> > > Thomas > > >> > > Edison), Etc............what I'm saying is that triggers other than > > >> > > DMT, Dextromethorphan, PCP, and the newest Salvia Divinorum exist. > > > >> > > On Feb 16, 2:19 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > I'm not insinuating, I'm stating for the record. > > >> > > > 1. DMT produces an effect that is similar in nature for all users, > > >> > > differing > > >> > > > only in the perception of the user. It typically begins with the > > >> user > > >> > > > feeling that they are floating > > ... > > read more ยป --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
