“Orn, the claim …… IS substantiated because mere testimony or any verbally relayed experiences are not conclusive without the ability to Reproduce or Duplicate the experience(s), ie; provision of a road map, instruction sheet, guidebook or methodology precisely leading others to the same.” – SD
A. It is reproducible and maps exist along with methodology and guidebooks…. B. Should I reject your claim because it is verbally relayed only? On Jan 15, 7:56 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > Orn, the claim ".......no one has ever come back to tell us anything > about it." IS substantiated because mere testimony or any verbally > relayed experiences are not conclusive without the ability to > Reproduce or Duplicate the experience(s), ie; provision of a road map, > instruction sheet, guidebook or methodology precisely leading others > to the same. Scientifically we can have such substantiation, ie; one > takes LSD and experiences Hallucinations and relays that experience > and others can now do the same. OBE's, alien abductions and other > such experiences are not "users guides" to recreating the experience > and so remain allusive. _SD > > On Jan 14, 2:48 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Stories are only that, testimonials without any possibility of > > verification eg: extraterrestrial abductions. <SD > > > Yes, that is the case for most all of us now Slip. And, I still feel > > strongly that my response was accurate and appropriate to your > > unsubstantiated claim that “…no one has ever come back to tell us > > anything about it.” > > > Key word being "Claim" to know. -<SD > > > Yes, I chose that term quite carefully Slip knowing full well that > > there are countless other skeptics reading these postings. Personally, > > I have no doubt at all that Gautama knew the truth of his last words > > nor do I doubt them either. Of course, in context I/we were possibly > > referring to other lives here. In one sense, I ‘know’ the full > > eternity of the now including any apparent beginnings/origins as well > > as the telos…so in this way know the truth of the bardo and beyond. > > Also, much of my personal practice does include rituals, meditations > > and contemplations on such things so the act of dying even though not > > experienced directly this time is not an entire stranger. > > > I don't view humanity as a pool, humans are not completely integrated > > as pool. Humans can be segregated by many aspects whereas a pool of > > water would not have that aspect, an ability to separate and > > establish > > identities. -<SD > > > Lack of view noted Slip. Yet, in one sense, since *everyone* (let > > alone everything etc.) is but a part of one’s consciousness, the water > > analogy that is appropriate. It is often used for mind stuff as well > > as an analogy for spirit. One scientific Socratic question is: If one > > takes a cup of water and pours it into the ocean and waits for the > > water to be evenly dispersed, and then takes another cup of water from > > the ocean, how much of the original one is present? Of course, this > > has been calculated by scientists however, the analogy may be > > instructive. > > > > “What determines who gets what from the soul pool?” – SD > > > Again, ‘we all’ have access to it all all of the time. Whether we can > > > remove the necessary obfuscations or not in order to apprehend this or > > > not is the issue here. -OM > > > Well that is a matter of opinion without actual basis, life is our > > reality not our theories. -<SD > > > While I do understand and agree with your intention here Slip…that > > what we think is reality IS our reality/life…I would further agree > > that theories are but mind stuff too, the term ‘opinion’ in this > > context appears to be a little harsh to me. I say this in that when > > analyzed, ‘we’ are in direct contact with all ‘souls/pools’ at all > > times whether such unity is consciously apprehended or not. One need > > not take this on faith either so don’t worry about mustering a defense… > > I’m not evangelical other than to suggest an expansion of view…perhaps > > a glance at my newer topic ‘Knowledge’ will point some of the way > > here. > > > On Jan 14, 12:07 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > “Is death just a marker between lives? Possibly and for me most > > > > likely, no one has ever come back to tell us anything about it.” – SD > > > > > This is not quite the case unless one is merely saying that they > > > > haven’t heard of such reports…many of which do exist- OM > > > > Stories are only that, testimonials without any possibility of > > > verification eg: extraterrestrial abductions. <SD > > > > > “Is there a Karma that carries from one life to the next? I would > > > > think that if the soul retains it's accumulated properties then it > > > > might also retain the aspects of retribution.” – SD > > > > > Many hold that some aspect does carry over. In fact, Karma alone is > > > > often seen as the actual cause of rebirth. > > > > See:http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell07.htm-OM > > > > Could be, the karma leaving a destiny or duty unfulfilled and > > > requiring a rebirth. <SD > > > > > “Upon new life in the new physical frame is there a clean slate with > > > > which to develop? I often wonder why some people are born into > > > > extreme poverty and pain while other live wonderful lives.” – SD > > > > > While the western notion of tabula rasa does exist, it is accurate in > > > > that it applies to “…the epistemological thesis that individuals are > > > > born without built-in mental content and that their knowledge comes > > > > from experience and perception.” > > > > -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa-OM > > > > I should clarify the clean slate portion, basically my intent is > > > pointing out that within the rebirth process the clean slate is for > > > the projections forward while retention of all previous experiences > > > are in somewhat of an underlying state. Possibly emerging in dream > > > states and deja vu moments. <SD > > > > > Is there “…any significance to life between birth and death.”? Many > > > > would say in the current context, everything therein is > > > > ‘significant’. “I believe that everyone has a soul unique to their > > > > self. To think > > > > that souls are just random formations of different lives would imply > > > > that upon death our soul becomes part of a huge soul pool or becomes > > > > part of the zero point field.” – SD > > > > > Again, looking to those who claim to know, and in particular to > > > > Gautama’s last words, “Now, monks, I declare to you: all elements of > > > > personality are subject to decay. Strive on untiringly!” > > > > -http://orias.berkeley.edu/visuals/buddha/life.html -OM > > > > Key word being "Claim" to know. -<SD > > > > > “How could we retain soul integrity if we die and our soul is > > > > dispersed into a pool?” – SD > > > > > The same way we retain individuation ‘integrity’ while living within > > > > the pool of humanity. -OM > > > > I don't view humanity as a pool, humans are not completely integrated > > > as pool. Humans can be segregated by many aspects whereas a pool of > > > water would not have that aspect, an ability to separate and establish > > > identities. -<SD > > > > > “What determines who gets what from the soul pool?” – SD > > > > > Again, ‘we all’ have access to it all all of the time. Whether we can > > > > remove the necessary obfuscations or not in order to apprehend this or > > > > not is the issue here. -OM > > > > Well that is a matter of opinion without actual basis, life is our > > > reality not our theories. -<SD > > > > > On Jan 14, 8:54 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Ed; > > > > > A matter of choice at what point and where does one make the choice. > > > > > Acquisition of experience that is causal to ascension might be and > > > > > obverse be the falling from grace. The entry into this realm seems > > > > > locked in, tied down and as you say subject to the laws, challenges > > > > > and opportunities that become the playing field of success or failure > > > > > according to and if there are actual adherents to be applied. I would > > > > > think that if there exists souls that they would all have a uniformity > > > > > as far as choice or not and if not who/what decides such things. > > > > > I believe that some people have lived past lives but not all as some > > > > > people are Old Souls, ie: child prodigies, brilliant scientists etc., > > > > > while others are New Souls ie: idiots without a clue who are easily > > > > > identifiable. I would not consider reincarnation in the sense that > > > > > our soul returns in the form of a different species but contend the > > > > > soul returns as another human being. A human soul does not return as > > > > > a cow in my opinion. I think we retain life experiences within our > > > > > soul and think life might be occurring simultaneously on different > > > > > planes and further that there is a level at which time itself is of no > > > > > consequence. The concept of old soul and new soul has been a > > > > > contentious subject for my wife and I as she is deeply rooted in > > > > > Catholicism and therefore won't accept it other than as a ridiculous > > > > > notion. According to her Catholic faith, death is the "complete and > > > > > final separation of the soul from the body". However the Vatican has > > > > > conceded that diagnosing death is a subject for medicine, not the > > > > > Church. Pope Pius XII questioned whether doctors might be "continuing > > > > > the resuscitation process, despite the fact that the soul may already > > > > > have left the body." > > > > > Others believe that life remains intact as long as the heart is > > > > > beating and others still contend that the mind and body are one so > > > > > being brain dead has not impact on death itself. It seems that belief > > > > > in certain aspects of death may give credence to what some know as > > > > > Heaven and the immortality of the soul. For atheists, pantheists, > > > > > materialists and rationalists there would be no question and > > > > > conversation of such idea would be moot. So what meaning does death > > > > > have to us as we are living? Perhaps it is a reminder that life is > > > > > temporary and that we should pay heed to what lies ahead without > > > > > paying as much attention to amassing materialistic treasures over > > > > > spiritual values. Is death just a marker between lives? Possibly > > > > > and for me most likely, no one has ever come back to > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
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