Orn, really, come on! My Statement "..........no one has ever come back to tell us anything about it" is NOT an "Experience" relayed verbally.
Its like someone claiming they saw the Yeti which begs the question "where do we go so we can see it?" On Jan 15, 12:48 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > “Orn, the claim …… IS substantiated because mere testimony or any > verbally > relayed experiences are not conclusive without the ability to > Reproduce or Duplicate the experience(s), ie; provision of a road > map, > instruction sheet, guidebook or methodology precisely leading others > to the same.” – SD > > A. It is reproducible and maps exist along with methodology and > guidebooks…. > B. Should I reject your claim because it is verbally relayed only? > > On Jan 15, 7:56 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Orn, the claim ".......no one has ever come back to tell us anything > > about it." IS substantiated because mere testimony or any verbally > > relayed experiences are not conclusive without the ability to > > Reproduce or Duplicate the experience(s), ie; provision of a road map, > > instruction sheet, guidebook or methodology precisely leading others > > to the same. Scientifically we can have such substantiation, ie; one > > takes LSD and experiences Hallucinations and relays that experience > > and others can now do the same. OBE's, alien abductions and other > > such experiences are not "users guides" to recreating the experience > > and so remain allusive. _SD > > > On Jan 14, 2:48 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Stories are only that, testimonials without any possibility of > > > verification eg: extraterrestrial abductions. <SD > > > > Yes, that is the case for most all of us now Slip. And, I still feel > > > strongly that my response was accurate and appropriate to your > > > unsubstantiated claim that “…no one has ever come back to tell us > > > anything about it.” > > > > Key word being "Claim" to know. -<SD > > > > Yes, I chose that term quite carefully Slip knowing full well that > > > there are countless other skeptics reading these postings. Personally, > > > I have no doubt at all that Gautama knew the truth of his last words > > > nor do I doubt them either. Of course, in context I/we were possibly > > > referring to other lives here. In one sense, I ‘know’ the full > > > eternity of the now including any apparent beginnings/origins as well > > > as the telos…so in this way know the truth of the bardo and beyond. > > > Also, much of my personal practice does include rituals, meditations > > > and contemplations on such things so the act of dying even though not > > > experienced directly this time is not an entire stranger. > > > > I don't view humanity as a pool, humans are not completely integrated > > > as pool. Humans can be segregated by many aspects whereas a pool of > > > water would not have that aspect, an ability to separate and > > > establish > > > identities. -<SD > > > > Lack of view noted Slip. Yet, in one sense, since *everyone* (let > > > alone everything etc.) is but a part of one’s consciousness, the water > > > analogy that is appropriate. It is often used for mind stuff as well > > > as an analogy for spirit. One scientific Socratic question is: If one > > > takes a cup of water and pours it into the ocean and waits for the > > > water to be evenly dispersed, and then takes another cup of water from > > > the ocean, how much of the original one is present? Of course, this > > > has been calculated by scientists however, the analogy may be > > > instructive. > > > > > “What determines who gets what from the soul pool?” – SD > > > > Again, ‘we all’ have access to it all all of the time. Whether we can > > > > remove the necessary obfuscations or not in order to apprehend this or > > > > not is the issue here. -OM > > > > Well that is a matter of opinion without actual basis, life is our > > > reality not our theories. -<SD > > > > While I do understand and agree with your intention here Slip…that > > > what we think is reality IS our reality/life…I would further agree > > > that theories are but mind stuff too, the term ‘opinion’ in this > > > context appears to be a little harsh to me. I say this in that when > > > analyzed, ‘we’ are in direct contact with all ‘souls/pools’ at all > > > times whether such unity is consciously apprehended or not. One need > > > not take this on faith either so don’t worry about mustering a defense… > > > I’m not evangelical other than to suggest an expansion of view…perhaps > > > a glance at my newer topic ‘Knowledge’ will point some of the way > > > here. > > > > On Jan 14, 12:07 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > “Is death just a marker between lives? Possibly and for me most > > > > > likely, no one has ever come back to tell us anything about it.” – SD > > > > > > This is not quite the case unless one is merely saying that they > > > > > haven’t heard of such reports…many of which do exist- OM > > > > > Stories are only that, testimonials without any possibility of > > > > verification eg: extraterrestrial abductions. <SD > > > > > > “Is there a Karma that carries from one life to the next? I would > > > > > think that if the soul retains it's accumulated properties then it > > > > > might also retain the aspects of retribution.” – SD > > > > > > Many hold that some aspect does carry over. In fact, Karma alone is > > > > > often seen as the actual cause of rebirth. > > > > > See:http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell07.htm-OM > > > > > Could be, the karma leaving a destiny or duty unfulfilled and > > > > requiring a rebirth. <SD > > > > > > “Upon new life in the new physical frame is there a clean slate with > > > > > which to develop? I often wonder why some people are born into > > > > > extreme poverty and pain while other live wonderful lives.” – SD > > > > > > While the western notion of tabula rasa does exist, it is accurate in > > > > > that it applies to “…the epistemological thesis that individuals are > > > > > born without built-in mental content and that their knowledge comes > > > > > from experience and perception.” > > > > > -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa-OM > > > > > I should clarify the clean slate portion, basically my intent is > > > > pointing out that within the rebirth process the clean slate is for > > > > the projections forward while retention of all previous experiences > > > > are in somewhat of an underlying state. Possibly emerging in dream > > > > states and deja vu moments. <SD > > > > > > Is there “…any significance to life between birth and death.”? Many > > > > > would say in the current context, everything therein is > > > > > ‘significant’. “I believe that everyone has a soul unique to their > > > > > self. To think > > > > > that souls are just random formations of different lives would imply > > > > > that upon death our soul becomes part of a huge soul pool or becomes > > > > > part of the zero point field.” – SD > > > > > > Again, looking to those who claim to know, and in particular to > > > > > Gautama’s last words, “Now, monks, I declare to you: all elements of > > > > > personality are subject to decay. Strive on untiringly!” > > > > > -http://orias.berkeley.edu/visuals/buddha/life.html -OM > > > > > Key word being "Claim" to know. -<SD > > > > > > “How could we retain soul integrity if we die and our soul is > > > > > dispersed into a pool?” – SD > > > > > > The same way we retain individuation ‘integrity’ while living within > > > > > the pool of humanity. -OM > > > > > I don't view humanity as a pool, humans are not completely integrated > > > > as pool. Humans can be segregated by many aspects whereas a pool of > > > > water would not have that aspect, an ability to separate and establish > > > > identities. -<SD > > > > > > “What determines who gets what from the soul pool?” – SD > > > > > > Again, ‘we all’ have access to it all all of the time. Whether we can > > > > > remove the necessary obfuscations or not in order to apprehend this or > > > > > not is the issue here. -OM > > > > > Well that is a matter of opinion without actual basis, life is our > > > > reality not our theories. -<SD > > > > > > On Jan 14, 8:54 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Ed; > > > > > > A matter of choice at what point and where does one make the choice. > > > > > > Acquisition of experience that is causal to ascension might be and > > > > > > obverse be the falling from grace. The entry into this realm seems > > > > > > locked in, tied down and as you say subject to the laws, challenges > > > > > > and opportunities that become the playing field of success or > > > > > > failure > > > > > > according to and if there are actual adherents to be applied. I > > > > > > would > > > > > > think that if there exists souls that they would all have a > > > > > > uniformity > > > > > > as far as choice or not and if not who/what decides such things. > > > > > > I believe that some people have lived past lives but not all as some > > > > > > people are Old Souls, ie: child prodigies, brilliant scientists > > > > > > etc., > > > > > > while others are New Souls ie: idiots without a clue who are easily > > > > > > identifiable. I would not consider reincarnation in the sense that > > > > > > our soul returns in the form of a different species but contend the > > > > > > soul returns as another human being. A human soul does not return > > > > > > as > > > > > > a cow in my opinion. I think we retain life experiences within our > > > > > > soul and think life might be occurring simultaneously on different > > > > > > planes and further that there is a level at which time itself is of > > > > > > no > > > > > > consequence. The concept of old soul and new soul has been a > > > > > > contentious subject for my wife and I as she is deeply rooted in > > > > > > Catholicism and therefore won't accept it other than as a ridiculous > > > > > > notion. According to her Catholic faith, death is the "complete and > > > > > > final separation of the soul from the body". However the Vatican has > > > > > > conceded that diagnosing death is a subject for medicine, not the > > > > > > Church. Pope Pius XII questioned whether doctors might be > > > > > > "continuing > > > > > > the resuscitation process, despite the fact that the soul may > > > > > > already > > > > > > have left the body." > > > > > > Others believe that life remains intact as long as the heart is > > > > > > beating and > > ... > > read more »
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