Yes Molly - in the sense that there is a certain familiarity in the promise as a kind of pot of 'gold' whenever we are urged to put in work to achieve some introspective-meditative ability or even an internalised learning goal. There are many forms of this worth exploring other than the accusation that its all about deception in the sales pitch sense, though many are connected to this. Hegel's was one of the worst (one must know everything to know anything), though even this contains some elements worth considering. In Habermas, the pot of gold is the ideal speech situation of mutual understanding (fine as an ideal). We all tend towards some position of enlightenment that may not be what we claim, not least in how others interpret what we can describe of it. Orn's 'desire to know what the or a self is' makes no sense to those tranced into ego development, or, I suspect, even to those seeing this immediately as his 'desire' or intentionality in the statement he actually makes above. I tend to have in mind more lower level political promises and blatant managerial lying about our 'improving society'; but on edge I am a doubting Thomas believer in enlightenment through certain forms of introspection with promises on delivery.
On 12 Mar, 17:15, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > “…rather than the self itself (whatever that is!).” – fran > > Herein lies ‘the rub’…so few have any idea at all let alone a desire > to know what ‘self’ is. > > On Mar 12, 9:04 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > It's a far more common phenomenon than that, Pat, and it's something > > we are all inclined to. The world of behavioural psychological > > development is very complex, but quite a lot about the way we learn to > > deal with intersubjectivity as children has to do with patterns we > > experience, strategies we learn, etc. An honest appraisal of the way > > we function, particularly in interpersonal relationships, show all > > kinds of tendencies in us to set up "drama-frameworks" in > > relationshipship situations, because they give us (frequently the > > illusion of) some kind of control over what's happening. And then we > > subsequently shake our heads and wonder, "why does this kind of shit > > always happen to me?" > > > On an ordinary level, there's nothing wrong with any of this - we are, > > after all, primates, with exceedingly complex social worlds, and > > setting up dramatic contexts to help us to deal with issues is > > something we do all the time and can be quite useful. The danger is > > always a tendency to addiction to one's own psychodramas (as Molly > > points out). Seen from a slightly different angle, this is another > > expression of what classical psychology refers to under the narcissism > > label, whereby one should be careful to understand that narcissism is > > an obsession with a particular image of oneself, rather than the self > > itself (whatever that is!). > > > Francis > > > On 12 Mrz., 16:07, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 9 Mar, 13:40, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I know quite a few people that create their own psychodramas for the > > > > rush of having them and can't seem to take a step back and look at > > > > their own role in creating the problems. > > > > Perhaps they suffer from a lesser form of Munchausen Syndrome, the > > > idea being to draw attention to themselves so that others will care > > > for them, as it would appear that they, themselves, don't (or can't > > > bring themselves to) care enough about themselves to do as you say. > > > > >I did not mean to suggest > > > > that we deny the worst we might do with manners. From my view, the > > > > worst and the best of us must be faced and owned full on and if there > > > > are problems in this, it is likely due to our own fear. Interestingly > > > > enough, only be facing our fears with complete honesty of who we are, > > > > will the fears fade away. Nothing anyone else can do will quell this > > > > for us. If we perceive problems that can't be solved, we don't have > > > > all the information or are afraid to find it. At some point, it is > > > > what it is without denial. > > > > > If we give credence to our critics, we also give credence to > > > > accomplishments. At some point, the only way to be honest with > > > > ourselves is to let both go, and act with integrity according to the > > > > dictates of the moment. We can always do this, and it will resolve > > > > any problem. Until we create more by constantly looking for them. > > > > > On Mar 9, 12:28 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Could not agree more Molly. Our manners have some purpose in denying > > > > > the worst we might do, but they leave us with unresolved problems and > > > > > not much means to resolve them. > > > > > > On 8 Mar, 18:48, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > having fun with your fantasies > > > > > > > On Mar 8, 12:07 pm, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > *whistling* no, I am not posting certain secret emails sent to > > > > > > > me, no, > > > > > > > I am a good girl *whistling* > > > > > > > > On 8 Mrz., 15:06, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yes! I think that letting go of anger is important, this we > > > > > > > > can do > > > > > > > > without expressing it as the source of anger is usually our own > > > > > > > > view. > > > > > > > > If we are feeling judgmental, the need to diminish or right the > > > > > > > > wrongs > > > > > > > > of the world, it is our own view creating the anger, as it is > > > > > > > > placing > > > > > > > > us in conflict with our experience. > > > > > > > > > Yet anger is a very real human emotion, and comes to the > > > > > > > > forefront of > > > > > > > > our experience as a means for us to confront our fears. this > > > > > > > > is very > > > > > > > > different than the ill tempered person who tends to go off > > > > > > > > regularly. > > > > > > > > this is the exquisite moment where we are face to face with our > > > > > > > > deepest fears (and we may or may not recognize it) and we are > > > > > > > > given an > > > > > > > > opportunity to take our stand (this often brings up the warrior > > > > > > > > in us) > > > > > > > > and feel the I AM of a statement that reconciles injustice and > > > > > > > > justice, hate and love and whatever opposition we are facing. > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > feeling of anger gives rise to courage and ethical action. And > > > > > > > > if we > > > > > > > > are unable to reconcile the opposites and find love and > > > > > > > > forgiveness > > > > > > > > when the anger subsides, we will probably be faced with this > > > > > > > > essential > > > > > > > > experience again, given another invitation to face and > > > > > > > > extinguish this > > > > > > > > fear, and it may be louder and more critical each time it comes > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > call. > > > > > > > > > Yes, I hear you Neil. Anger can be essential. Most often, I > > > > > > > > think, > > > > > > > > it is misused. > > > > > > > > > On Mar 7, 7:31 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I think there is an honest place where we may do something > > > > > > > > > useful with > > > > > > > > > anger Molly. > > > > > > > > > > On 5 Mar, 17:13, Doris Briscoe <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Yes if your family and your love ones are not doing well it > > > > > > > > > > is hard to shine > > > > > > > > > > your light, but if you can laugh and your love ones and > > > > > > > > > > keep and hold still > > > > > > > > > > a joy and find still there is good things,(You are still > > > > > > > > > > alive)....depression,poverty,hunger,coldness,homeless,family > > > > > > > > > > spread apart > > > > > > > > > > and seprated, ill health,mock,not believed, rejected. And > > > > > > > > > > yet the song goes > > > > > > > > > > on. dj and if even then you still give what you can. > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Doris Briscoe > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I almost forgot about this song. It is not good to stand > > > > > > > > > > > on a planet > > > > > > > > > > > along. I like it that a person can start All over. dj > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:33 AM, rigsy03 > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> A beautiful and brave post- thank you, Francis. > > > > > > > > > > > >> It is interesting to think of my mother and her peers > > > > > > > > > > >> who were so > > > > > > > > > > >> tight-lipped about this subject and "airing the family > > > > > > > > > > >> dirty linens"- > > > > > > > > > > >> she went shopping and shopping and shopping! They > > > > > > > > > > >> eventually paid for > > > > > > > > > > >> their repression with ill-health. > > > > > > > > > > > >> The sacrament of Confession wasn't such a bad idea to > > > > > > > > > > >> unload ones sins > > > > > > > > > > >> and begin anew. > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have dabbled only to find the sentence(s) that > > > > > > > > > > >> propelled action or > > > > > > > > > > >> change. I dislike any rx and alcohol took a dislike to > > > > > > > > > > >> me. > > > > > > > > > > > >> Modern life has enough leisure to allow us the > > > > > > > > > > >> luxury/hell of self- > > > > > > > > > > >> analysis. I think we live in a self-help glut of books > > > > > > > > > > >> and experts. > > > > > > > > > > >> Advice is cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Mar 3, 12:11 pm, frantheman > > > > > > > > > > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> > Starting with Lehrer's article and going on with some > > > > > > > > > > >> > excellent > > > > > > > > > > >> > thoughtful contributions here, this thread has the > > > > > > > > > > >> > potential to become > > > > > > > > > > >> > something very good. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I believe that a danger in dealing with the subject of > > > > > > > > > > >> > "depression" is > > > > > > > > > > >> > that there are many different modes of melancholy, > > > > > > > > > > >> > many different > > > > > > > > > > >> > causes and, consequently. many different ways of > > > > > > > > > > >> > treating/dealing with/ > > > > > > > > > > >> > living with/learning from/transcending it. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > There's evidence for neuro-biochemical foundations for > > > > > > > > > > >> > particular > > > > > > > > > > >> > depressive states, having generally (much simplified > > > > > > > > > > >> > here!) to do with > > > > > > > > > > >> > the neurotransmitter serotonin. This is the level at > > > > > > > > > > >> > which many of the > > > > > > > > > > >> > current pharmaceutical "treatments" kick in. The > > > > > > > > > > >> > question which can > > > > > > > > > > >> > often be asked is whether a chemical club ameliorates > > > > > > > > > > >> > a particular > > > > > > > > > > >> > symptomatic which is actually a signal for something > > > > > > > > > > >> > else. In a > > > > > > > > > > >> > society which believes in quick fixes, the immediate > > > > > > > > > > >> > recourse to pills > > > > > > > > > > >> > is prevelant and, I suspect, frequently shortsighted. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > That said, I know that chronic, deep depression is > > > > > > > > > > >> > something awful and > > > > > > > > > > >> > - ultimately - pathological. In such cases, medication > > > > > > > > > > >> > may be > > > > > > > > > > >> > absolutely necessary. The inability to have any > > > > > > > > > > >> > experience of joy in > > > > > > > > > > >> > life over a longer period is for me the best > > > > > > > > > > >> > definition of hell I can > > > > > > > > > > >> > come up with (and I don't need any supernatural > > > > > > > > > > >> > categories for it). To > > > > > > > > > > >> > experience one's life as continuously completely > > > > > > > > > > >> > dreary and futile, to > > > > > > > > > > >> > feel that the effort of just getting out of bed at > > > > > > > > > > >> > some stage of the > > > > > > > > > > >> > day takes more energy than one has available, to see > > > > > > > > > > >> > one's own > > > > > > > > > > >> > existence as a uselessly complicating factor for > > > > > > > > > > >> > others so that the > > > > > > > > > > >> > whole world would be better if one simply ceased to > > > > > > > > > > >> > exist ... I've > > > > > > > > > > >> > been there. I never want to go back there. I've known > > > > > > > > > > >> > many others who > > > > > > > > > > >> > have suffered terribly, and one of my best friends > > > > > > > > > > >> > killed himself > > ... > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
