Ah, but money is just a means to exercise power and influence others. It compensates physical strength to a certain degree. In my view it is the direction of human development the so called founders of new beliefs have been successful in altering. That's how I also understand vamadevananda's activities.
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 7:51 AM, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > with rare exception Lee I think in the case of Scientology it is for the > money but you need control to get the money.. In most cases the founders > of beliefs are not interested in money.. it is those that follow which use > beliefs as a hussle > Allan > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 6:27 PM, [email protected] < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hey Rigsy, >> >> Meh! Don't bother me none mate. >> >> I will say that I simply do not belife that mankind has 'created' a >> religion for the sole porpose of control, perhaps we will see some in >> the future and perhaps we can level that charge at the Scientologist >> door, even then I think it is more about making money than control. >> >> I will admit that many have used and continues to do so, religoin of >> any ilke to control, but that is far differant from the oringinators >> intended porpouse. Yep I really do belive that all religoin can get >> one to God. >> >> Evil people we have in plenty, and I think there is a lot of >> differance between the an original goal and an userption. >> >> Like My Blair, taking us to war in the search of WMD, use of the >> public has forever been a gameplan of the powerfull, and any tool and >> every tool will they use. >> >> You say we cannot discount the human reasons that religoins have >> existed, I would say we cannot discount the human propensity to twist >> things for our own ends. >> >> >> >> On Feb 27, 5:24 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> > I wish no disrespect to your beliefs but there have been thousands of >> > religions during man's history- many claiming absolute truth about God/ >> > gods. I do not believe all faiths lead to holiness/God as there have >> > been too many cruel/evil religions. We cannot discount the human >> > reasons that religions have existed: cohesion of a group, control of >> > behavior, a spur to conquest, an opiate and so on. A kind, loving >> > atheist is also holy in humanistic terms. Religions change or break >> > away to adapt to changing social/economic realities- that would be >> > understood by Darwin, I believe. >> > >> > On Feb 25, 7:20 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > > Hahah Rigsy. >> > >> > > Sikhi in a nut shell is this. >> > >> > > There is but one absolute truth and it is God. >> > >> > > We are not seprerated from God, but live in the dualistic belife that >> > > we are, to realise this one only needs to keep God in the forefront of >> > > the mind at all times.(Which is why we chant vaherguru - or wonderous >> > > God(losely translated)) >> > >> > > By doing this one eventualy becomes God conciose, rather than man >> > > conciouse(Manmukh) and thus their actions become what I suppose we can >> > > call 'good' >> > >> > > So there is no call to doing good as doing good comes as a natural >> > > occourance of trying to become God conciouse(Gurmukh) >> > >> > > You should then be able to infer much from the above, perhaps not the >> > > least being, there is no heaven nor hell, as there is no one true >> > > faith, all faiths may 'lead' to God. >> > >> > > On Feb 25, 12:11 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > > I am impressed by what I read of Sikhism. After a couple of books at >> > > > home, I turned to Wikipedia. I remembered about the Golden Temple >> and >> > > > some other events but they were historical or news items. >> > >> > > > I, too, am a "slow adapter". >> > >> > > > I felt badly about jumping from the particular to the universal >> > > > regarding some personal experiences for there were positives as well >> > > > as negatives. It reminded me I still feel hurt and anger over some >> > > > matters and will try harder to pray for understanding. Maybe God >> > > > needed my attention! :-) Just kidding... >> > >> > > > On Feb 23, 9:18 am, "[email protected]" < >> [email protected]> >> > > > wrote: >> > >> > > > > Hey Rigsy, >> > >> > > > > There is nowt to forgive my friend. >> > >> > > > > Ignorance is not a sin rather a nateural state. We are all >> ignorant >> > > > > about many things, untill we take the time to learn, and part of >> the >> > > > > learning is in the asking. >> > >> > > > > Realiseing all the time that when we speak in part or on the whole >> > > > > about religious belifes we are not dealing in emprical fact but >> > > > > beliefe. Some of which we can apply logical thought to, some.... >> well >> > > > > not so much. Then I'll say it is my belife that the soul >> inhabites >> > > > > the body upon conception, or perhaps it is always present, rather >> as >> > > > > RP suggest as part of the pervadidness of God? >> > >> > > > > All of us are redemable, in the eys of God if not in the eyes of >> each >> > > > > other. >> > >> > > > > I'm a lover of nature(if this is indeed the context which you >> mean?) >> > > > > it's hard not to be coming from the Pagan background that I do. >> I'm >> > > > > also an admirerer of a certin Mr Darwin, and believe in an >> absolute >> > > > > sense that we arived here via the process of evolution. >> > >> > > > > So humanity is not somehow seperate from nature but very much a >> part >> > > > > of it. Indeed with our abilities it is clear to see how much sway >> we >> > > > > have over the lives of the other animals that we share this planet >> > > > > with. >> > >> > > > > As to Sikhi, ahh I'm not a good Sikh. Only really because Sikhi >> agrees >> > > > > with many of my personal belifes about God and Gods plan. >> > >> > > > > On Feb 23, 2:43 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > > > > Thank you for your reply and am thinking about it... >> > >> > > > > > I think this brings up the question of potential and actuality. >> (Does >> > > > > > the fetus have a soul, for instance. Does an evil person retain >> the >> > > > > > possibility of redemption- how does this relate to religious and >> civil >> > > > > > laws? Etc.) >> > >> > > > > > Yes- I just get my hopes up and then...HIstory is indeed a dance >> back >> > > > > > and forth but so is an individual life. We are certainly living >> in >> > > > > > "interesting times" (Chinese wish that can be taken two ways.) >> > >> > > > > > My "man" just cleared another large snowfall- I think we are up >> to 72" >> > > > > > and may hit 90" by the end of March. So my spirit is curious but >> my >> > > > > > mind is distracted. :-) >> > >> > > > > > How does Nature figure into your beliefs? I admit I am quite >> ignorant >> > > > > > about the Sikh faith and tend to limit it to Punjab and turbans. >> > > > > > Please forgive my poor education- thus far. >> > >> > > > > > On Feb 23, 5:01 am, "[email protected]" < >> [email protected]> >> > > > > > wrote: >> > >> > > > > > > Hey RP, >> > >> > > > > > > Yeah I get what you are saying. >> > >> > > > > > > I see a disctiction though. >> > >> > > > > > > I belive that before anything existed there was only God. >> That is >> > > > > > > before the creation, before matter ther was only God, God in >> spirt. >> > > > > > > God created the creation from Gods self. That is God created >> matter >> > > > > > > from spirt, so yes I too belive that there exists not one iota >> of >> > > > > > > matter that does not contian the spirit of God. >> > >> > > > > > > It goes back to my original question though what is Soul? >> > >> > > > > > > Is soul simply spirit? >> > >> > > > > > > No, too much relgious dogma says that only humans can reach >> God, or if >> > > > > > > you like only humans have soul. So what is the portion of God >> or the >> > > > > > > propertie of God that is all pervading? Flour my freind. >> > >> > > > > > > All bread (matter) containes the spirt (flour) of God but not >> all >> > > > > > > bread (matter) containes the soul(yeast) of God. Humans are >> levend >> > > > > > > bread, all else is unlevend. >> > >> > > > > > > I say this because, as I have said too much dogma says it is >> so. As a >> > > > > > > religous man, I must place some of my belife structure on some >> > > > > > > religious dogma. >> > >> > > > > > > On Feb 23, 10:37 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > > > > > > There is not an atom of matter that doesn't contain the >> Spirit , >> > > > > > > > rather everything and everyone is upheld by the spirit. >> Hence the >> > > > > > > > basis of all whether animate or inanimate is the soul or the >> Spirit. >> > >> > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 8:26 PM, >> [email protected] >> > >> > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > > > > > > > Hey Rigsy, >> > >> > > > > > > > > The point of my baking anology was to differantciat >> between Soul and >> > > > > > > > > Matter. Yes indeed other raising agents are to be found, >> and yes >> > > > > > > > > indeed some prefer unlevend bread. Bread is still bread >> made out of >> > > > > > > > > some form of flour. >> > >> > > > > > > > > Sticking to this then in answer to your questions. >> > >> > > > > > > > > If the yeast is the soul and the flour the matter we can >> easily see >> > > > > > > > > that not all matter containes soul, although it is still >> thought of as >> > > > > > > > > the same thing. >> > >> > > > > > > > > Evilness stems not from the yeast but from the flour. >> That is not >> > > > > > > > > from the spirt of God but the minds of mankind. >> > >> > > > > > > > > I am both a theists and a humanist, I see no contradiction >> in this. >> > > > > > > > > So yes humanity has progressed for good or ill. How do I >> measure it? >> > > > > > > > > Probably like you do, in many ways. How we treat the >> worst off >> > > > > > > > > amongst us, and our elderly, what levels of technolgy we >> have and how >> > > > > > > > > it is used, our philosophis and where they lead us both >> theistic and >> > > > > > > > > secular, as I say many differant ways. >> > >> > > > > > > > > Hahah yes it does seem that religous dogma clouds >> rationality, >> > > > > > > > > sometimes, for some people, but I would argue that it is >> strict >> > > > > > > > > adhereance without questioning the worth of such dogma is >> to blame, >> > > > > > > > > rather than dogma itself. >> > >> > > > > > > > > History shows us circles, for those who wish to look. It >> seems we >> > > > > > > > > move forward, and then the same old shit happens, and >> around we go >> > > > > > > > > again. >> > >> > > > > > > > > On Feb 22, 1:43 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> Animals can have personalities. People can have a herd >> mentality >> > > > > > > > >> lacking intelligence, individualism and uniqueness. >> > >> > > > > > > > >> Is the soul from a creator? How do you explain evil- do >> you admit >> > > > > > > > >> there are evil souls/forces? Is the soul/creator split >> between good >> > > > > > > > >> and evil? (This was a heresy of the Early Church but a >> doctrine of >> > > > > > > > >> Zoroastrianism.) >> > >> > > > > > > > >> Baking powder and soda also create a rise in flour. Some >> peole prefer >> > > > > > > > >> flat breads. :-) >> > >> > > > > > > > >> Civilization might progress on the basis of other >> criteria- there was >> > > > > > > > >> a book/program about germs and steel but I forget the >> author and exact >> > > > > > > > >> title. How do you measure the progress of the human race- >> or, do you >> > > > > > > > >> see progress or merely an illusion created by the >> Industrial >> > > > > > > > >> Revolution and technology and into whose hands/minds is >> this progress >> > > > > > > > >> steered? Or does religious dogma suspend critical >> thinking in order >> > > > > > > > >> to unify/pacify the populace into a common belief system? >> Same with >> > > > > > > > >> political/economic theories. >> > >> > > > > > > > >> How has all this "been working" for the human race >> according to >> > > > > > > > >> history? >> > >> > > > > > > > >> On Feb 22, 4:40 am, "[email protected]" < >> [email protected]> >> > > > > > > > >> wrote: >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > Hah yes I agree that it does appear a little >> contradictory. >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > Let me attempt to explian it this way. >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > You are a uniqeue individual, differant from me, and >> indeed every >> > > > > > > > >> > other human on the planet. What is the root of this? >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > It is >> > >> > ... >> > >> > read more ยป- Hide quoted text - >> > >> > - Show quoted text - >> > > > > -- > ( > ) > I_D Allan > > If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken > Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, > >
