Hello everyone >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [MD] subject / object logic >Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:44:58 +0000 > >[Dan] > > Subjects and objects are intellectual patterns of values...ideas. So it > > seems pretty simple to see that ideas come before matter, which Mr. > > Pirsig has said numerous times. > >Dan, >Don't we need the "use/mention distinction" here? >Suppose I say: "There are 2 objects on the shelf." (E.g., a candle & a >vase) I mean that there are 2 static inorganic patterns on the shelf. I >don't mean that there are 2 ideas or 2 intellectual patterns of values >there. If we increase the temperature in the room, the candle melts. >Ideas melt in a different way. (I dunno. "Any idea I had of leaving the >party melted away when she entered the room.")
Hi Craig I think we need to look at how the 2 objects on the shelf are perceived: candle & vase. If I didn't already have preconceived (intellectual) notions of candle and vase I wouldn't know what the objects on the shelf were when I biologically sensed them. The idea of candle and vase comes first. Later I categorize candle and vase into specifics such as color, shape, function, etc., all inorganic values we associate with what we call matter. >Craig: >If instead I say: "Candles fall under the category 'object'." Then >'object' will refer to an intellectual >patterns of value. Dan: It is a high quality idea that candle and vase are solid objects -- inorganic patterns of value -- and even though we see and feel them there in front of us the perception of candle and vase remains a conceptual notion, a high quality idea. >Craig: >As for which came first, matter or ideas?: >"Matter is contained in static inorganic patterns. Mind is contained in >static intellectual patterns. Both mind and matter are completely separate >evolutionary levels of static patterns of value, and as such are capable of >each containing the other without cont radiction... >Mental patterns do not originate out of inorganic nature. They originate >out of society, which originates out of biology which originates out of >inorganic nature." >(RMP, "Lila", Chap. 12) Dan: Let's break this down: the first sentence is telling us that what we know as matter -- objects -- is contained in static inorganic patterns of value. We can also add that animate matter is contained in biological patterns of value. The second sentence tells us that what we perceive in our mind is contained in static intellectual patterns -- ideas. The third sentence tells us that there is a dividing line between mind and matter which is reflected in the MOQ -- inorganic and biological patterns of value can be seen as objective while social and intellectual patterns of value can be viewed as subjective. Furthermore, these patterns are capable of containing each other without contraction -- they are not mutually exclusive. Finally, we see that intellectual patterns of value do not originate from inorganic patterns -- in other words, ideas come before matter -- rather, deas spring from social patterns of value. Social patterns orginate from biological patterns which in turn originate from inorganic patterns. I hope this helps. Thank you for your thoughts. Dan Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
