>Craig: >As for which came first, matter or ideas?: >"Matter is contained in static inorganic patterns. Mind is contained in
>static intellectual patterns. Both mind and matter are completely >separate evolutionary levels of static patterns of value, and as such >are capable of each containing the other without cont radiction... >Mental patterns do not originate out of inorganic nature. They >originate out of society, which originates out of biology which >originates out of inorganic nature." >(RMP, "Lila", Chap. 12) Dan: Let's break this down: the first sentence is telling us that what we know as matter -- objects -- is contained in static inorganic patterns of value. We can also add that animate matter is contained in biological patterns of value. The second sentence tells us that what we perceive in our mind is contained in static intellectual patterns -- ideas. Ron: This is what I argue, that what we percieve is an amalgomate of objective static patterns of value and static intellecual patterns. You seem to maintain that it is all subjective and therefore strictly in the realm of ideas. Dan: The third sentence tells us that there is a dividing line between mind and matter which is reflected in the MOQ -- inorganic and biological patterns of value can be seen as objective while social and intellectual patterns of value can be viewed as subjective. Furthermore, these patterns are capable of containing each other without contraction -- they are not mutually exclusive. Ron: I agree, although they do influence one another with the idea being the upper levels originate in the lower levels with the base being inorganic patterns of value, or matter. Pirsig even puts matter before ideas in his 4 level heirarchy. Dan: Finally, we see that intellectual patterns of value do not originate from inorganic patterns -- in other words, ideas come before matter -- rather, ideas spring from social patterns of value. Social patterns orginate from biological patterns which in turn originate from inorganic patterns. Ron: And inorganic/biological patterns are objective reality, matter. In effect you are making my argument for me. Dan, previously you were arguing that basically there are only two levels of existence intellectual and social and that biological and inorganic originate from them. You seem to be contradicting yourself. To argue with someone that water does not come from the ground but comes from a hole in the ground with a pump to piping then to a spigot then argue that water comes from a hose not a source in the ground, is just silly. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
