Ian and Ron, All On 6 Nov. Ian wrote:
> Ron, you said .. > > [Ron] > > It seems plain to me that SOM is a great deal more than an > > intellectual pattern in our present western culture it has fused > > with the culture. I think this is why it can be traced linearly in > > time as an intellectual pattern but not conceptually because it has > > become enmeshed in the culture. First, because Ron says that SOM is a great deal more than AN intellectual pattern, it must mean that it is THE intellectual level. I can't see any intermediate stage between the two positions. And that's just what it is. > Absolutely ... it is such a large intellectual pattern, it is THE > dominant "memeplex" of modern western culture, almost every other > pattern is subservient to it .... it goes right through every > decision-making norm at every level of analysis in every sphere of > activity. And as Ian agrees he ought to be right too, but then it sounds as if there are other intellectual pattern that are subservient to SOM. This makes intellect=ideas, the very obstacle to understanding the MOQ > It is THE problem "of our time" - SOM / logical-positivism / > objectivism. Right, SOM is "objectivism", but it is "subjectivism" too as the necessary opposite. And from SOM's premises theories that postulates that "all is mind", "in our heads" ...etc. can be (and constantly is) formulated. This is an important point in understanding MOQ's enormity, > It excludes values (and quality) by design, and has a hard time even > finding the language to address them. It is almost politically > incorrect even to question it in most circles - like an emperors suit > of clothes we can all see it is bogus, but we are hamstrung in normal > life to do anything about it. A massive impediment to quality progress. Right Ian, yet shifting our focus from SOM to the MOQ (where S/O is a static value, the highest and best) changes everything. > Also - you say "culture" rather than social or intellectual. This is > anther key issue with Pirsig's take. Like you say, so much social > culture is intertwined with what passes for intellect and vice-versa > .... SOM is more a "cultural pattern" than simply intellectual. Ian can't but cancel all he has said before ;-) Now SOM is "more a cultural pattern than simply intellectual". What's not culture? Bacteria is also a "culture". Keep the MOQ simple or it collapses into nonsense. Social value is that of individuals joining in a common cause. Intellectual value is the Subject/Object distinction. In this process the said social (common causes) value: (our God, our nation, our group ...etc.) became IRREAL, SUBJECTIVE, NONSENSE and is why intellectual value is seen as a grave danger by social value. Thus the SOL interpretation meets MOQ's requirements of level struggle, while the standard interpretation (intellect=symbol manipulation) fails. Why should society despise symbol manipulation? But please understand that society ISN'T subjective and intellect isn't objective, this is seen from SOM. From MOQ seen the 4th levels value is the very subject/object distinction. The 3rd. level is before this distinction thus does not know any S/O, it's value is the said "common cause". Enough Bo Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
