[Pete]
> I can see I have really irritated you both, and with
> my 'Bums don't know
> shit' statement I have humiliated myself.
[SA currently]
Irritated by the seemingly lack of compassion that
had me wonder, people are really this cold and
ignorant?
[Pete]
> I got carried away with that post and lapsed into a
> certain vernacular that
> I now regret.
[SA currently]
Pete, I know you, and due to what you said, being
so unlike you, that probably threw me more than
anything else about what you said.
[Pete]
> You want to paint me as someone condemning the poor
> from my comfortable
> armchair? go ahead if it makes you feel better.
[SA currently]
It's not about making me feel better. It's about
how could you... think this way... I don't know.
[Pete]
> But there are bums out there who are the designers
> of their own downfall;
[SA currently]
And I mentioned earlier to you that I couldn't
doubt this, but do I know this? no.
[Pete]
> they don't all drop out as a statement of their
> contempt at society.
[SA currently]
Bums and "contempt at society" was not my point.
Maybe for some it was, but also it is an event, an
event in this society where people become bums. I was
trying to point out what they know from their
experience from the fringe of society.
I was also thinking today. Sometimes bums are
thought of as free-loaders, especially those bums that
move up one notch on the economic social scale and
become welfare recipients. They are seen to feed off
of society, and then I thought don't politicians do
this more than anybody else! I then laughed to myself
at the possible truth this might hold.
[Pete]
> If we want to explore this disagreement more perhaps
we
> need to say what kind of
> bums we are talking about. For instance I don't
> think of someone who wants
> to go and live in the wild for a while as a bum. I
> don't think the Brujo or
> the Indians in the teepee were bums either. On the
> other hand the meths
> drinker under the bridge fits the title better; he's
> probably had a very
> underprivileged life which has caused a downward
> spiral which is difficult
> to break out of but he still consistently makes the
> wrong choices and stays
> where he is.
[SA currently]
This is difficult to know for sure. Some of the
bums that I've known, that were residents were I work,
did make choices that lead them the way they went, but
they also didn't have parents that were there for
them. Some were marketed by drug dealers that offered
and did provide a better life of food and $ than what
they previously had. The market has something to do
with this too.
[Pete]
> SA, so you say the bum knows Quality. What good is
> the quality he knows?
[SA currently]
From those that I've known, and from my
experience, it was a bottom line of something else has
got to be better here on this earth. But I can't
speak for all bums. One old resident that I do have
in mind went on to 'Independent Living' at another
facility. She came and left with a desire for people
to like her. If people didn't talk to her, she became
very uncomfortable and right away thought those people
didn't like her. Therapists call it low self-esteem.
She also horded 'things'. She had literally hundreds
of markers, and ate quite a bit as if it was her last
meal. Others that I've known were satisfied with not
having many things. There bedrooms were very simply
stocked, clothes, essential hygiene items and that was
about it. They were quiet, unlike the first resident
who was very dramatic about losing something. So the
picture can't be painted one way.
[Pete]
> He can still have the immediate experience of pain
when
> sitting on a hot stove
> but on meths maybe he gets burnt a bit more before
> he reacts.
[SA currently]
I don't know much about meths, but don't they numb
people more and more?
[Pete]
> Pirsig offered that intellect had the most potential
for
> the valuation of quality. It's difficult to think
> when your on meths.
[SA currently]
I agree, but for the few I've talked to they offer
an insight into society that they themselves didn't
realize they had.
[Pete]
> SA, you said 'they might not be able to put quality
> into the exact words as
> Pirsig and go around saying quality, static patterns
> of value, etc..., but
> they do know quality - who doesn't?' Again I ask
> what's the use of this
> quality of yours? Surely the ultimate use of quality
> is to reduce your
> suffering?
[SA currently]
If need be, quality is still meeting biological
needs, and even if that isn't happening, the effort to
live, even on meths, is a pulse of life that makes me
wonder why they would still try to live - but they do,
but maybe not for long. The run-a-ways that I knew
that lived on the streets and sometimes house to house
if they were able to convince friends to let them
sleep over, these bums usually were cutters (they
tried to commit suicide from time to time).
Intellectual quality is more moral than the social
level if it helps the social level, this I've
mentioned many times here. How this help is to be
applied, I've wondered many times before too. Buddha
was able to help, but compassion on this earth seems
to be an act of wisdom that does not notice human
lifetimes as a confinement as to how long compassion
needs to work its' magic.
[Pete]
> When Pirsig was staring into space while
> pissing his pants before
> the hospital he was at the same time experiencing a
> euphoria so profound
> that attending his physical circumstances was
> irrelevant but I don't think
> that is the case for most bums under the bridge.
[SA currently]
I don't know. Do you know? What bums do you
know?
woods,
SA
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