addendum: perhaps we also need to consider 'unconscious thought'; by this i mean the operative but generally unnoticed archetypes that underpin our human experience.
these universal concepts reveal themselves in myth and dream but are beneath the surface of waking consciousness. can we dive below the surface and experience these thoughts when hyperaware? probably. ...i guess this brings us to the point of whose thoughts are they anyway? i guess that usually our thoughts are reruns and very SOM based. during true dialectical engagement thoughts come spontaneously, dynamically; the dance of thought. anyway i don't want to confuse things too much. thought is primarily a SOM based and hence intellectual phenomenon for humans. it is simple this way. but!!!!! does communication require thought? if so then we have a different picture because then thought drops all the way down. and yes!!! if thought is equated with idea then thought does go all the way down for the MOQ is idealism. this also means that communication with all levels of self: rocks, dogs, water...is possible. we need to define thought more carefully. everything starts as an idea, so how do we define that special idea called intellectual thought. there is but one way i think: SOM based. --- gav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > thought outside intellect? > > well to keep it simple identifying the two is > useful....but to keep it accurate a little qualifier > may be necessary. > > thought existed prior to the intellect in some way. > it > was a different type of thought to intellectual > thought, which is SOM based. this type of thought we > still experience today during those 'poincare > moments'. this is thought before the breakdown of > the > bicameral mind (jaynes); it is the 'voice of the > gods' > speaking dierctly to us. > > for more examples of this difference compare 'the > iliad' and 'the odyssey' as jaynes did. > > > --- david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Steve said (I think): > > Thought outside intellect is impossible because > > thought and intellect are the same think. Pirsig > > says that intellect is simply thinking. ...There > are > > certainly better and worse perspectives, but > thought > > is still thought. Thought doesn't turn into > > something else if it's based on a better > > perspective. ...But as a type of pattern of value, > > to me it doesn't make sense to think of the MOQ as > > anything but an intellectual pattern of value. > > > > dmb says: > > I agree. In fact, I've been relatively polite > about > > it because Bo seems like such a nice guy but I > have > > to say that the attempt to place the MOQ in some > > realm beyond intellect is just really, really > dumb. > > I think a person would have to ignore or > > misunderstand pragmatism, radical empiricism, > > philosophical mysticism and dozens of direct > > statements from Pirsig in order to entertain such > a > > notion. I think the whole idea misses the point of > > the MOQ by several lightyears. And that's exactly > > what I see Bo doing. Its just impossible nonsense. > > Sorry, but that's how I see it. > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Put your friends on the big screen with Windows > > Vista® + Windows Live. > > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008 > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get > the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. > www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
