Gav Try this. Experience is all subjective, or subjectivity is the wholeness of experience. You cannot take the subject out of experience. SOM tries to divide experience and identify non-subject aspects.This is impossible because it is all experience. We can call this quality instead. Now quality can be shown to contain dynamic/new/emergent non-patterned aspects that's DQ, and the patterned SQ parts of experience is what SOM calls objects in the main, but sometimes subject-ive if the patterns are not describable in terms of matter.
MOQ says SOM is a mess, better to just see the patterns and the dynamic aspects of experience and stop trying to divide the patterns into subjective and objective ones as this is a confused distinction. And it's all quality-experience, none of it can be called non-quality-experience, so what use is the SOM distinction? David M ----- Original Message ----- From: "david buchanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:19 AM Subject: Re: [MD] Mindless Metaphysics Gav said: i can't see it dave. i don't see how intellect can exist without subjects thinking of objects. SOM was the evolutionary leap that enabled intellect. intellect can't exist outside of this split: the split is fundamental. i don't see how calling the split dynamic/static changes anything. it is still a split. dave says: Think about that analytic knife. That's intellect. It can slice up reality in any number of ways. Subjects and objects are just one way to divide experience. Yes, intellect splits experience or reality. It makes distinctions and definitions but there is no reason to think there is only one way to do this. James's statement that pure experience is "only virtually classifiable" as subject or object makes this same claim. Like Pirsig, he's saying subjects and objects are concepts rather than reality itself. Intellect can't exist outside of the cutting, but there's more than one way to slice it. And I think its very compelling that they both think the static/dynamic distinction is better as a first cut. Gav said: reality is pre-conceptual. MOQ is conceptual and therefore is an object of consideration for thinking subjects. metaphysics are intellectual frameworks. the MOQ accomodates SOM within a broader context, incorporating a mystic, dynamic absolute that underpins and pervades all 'things'. dave says: Except for the part about the MOQ being an object for a subject, I'm with you here. The MOQ is an intellectual framework, one that knows that such frameworks are only a menu and not the food, one that is drawn with the understanding of the limits of intellect, one that makes room for the pre-intellectual reality it cuts up. We gotta hang out. I miss you. _________________________________________________________________ Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/keepintouch.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_VideoChat_distantfamily_012008 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
