Hi Bo
It's getting hard to keep up with the flow here. Perhaps I'm already behind.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> We have all solemnly forsworn the Mind/Matter metaphysics
> where mind(=thoughts) is one half of reality, how come you
> accuse me of making some levels into thought levels? After all
> there is no such thing as thoughts in the MOQ (except as part of
> intellect's thought/matter value, IMO)
Because your reasoning always start from some person or group of persons
thinking this, and thinking that. Sometimes they're in one mode and at other
times they're in some other mode.
When you're reasoning about reality, it seems you never give a second thought
about the physical world that existed before humans, and still exists. Also,
your version of the MoQ have no room for artificial intelligence, so when such
things pops up and starts thinking about thinking, your MoQ is useless.
>> I didn't say the brain does the transformation from inorganic patterns
>> to biological sense experience. I said that the senses does that. I
>> explicitly wrote that "the brain itself has no such senses" above.
>
> Brain and senses are one and the same, the eyes (apples) are
> just a tiny part of vision, and that goes for all senses. They even
> say that brain is the real sex organ ;-)
I would violently disagree with the last statement. :-P
And yes, in your world, the brain and senses may be the same, but that goes
against everything I've ever heard and read about the brain. Do you really
think
that last little, tiny, minuscule step of starting to think about thinking is
so
fantastic that it degrades the rest of the 99% of the brain's capacity to
biology?
>> On the other hand, the brain as the hardware where software is running
>> is no different from my view of the human brain. But *only* in terms
>> of static patterns. A computer is immune to DQ influence.
>
> Phew, when out of argument, produce fog.
Out of arguments??? We're talking about the very first split of reality here. A
computer is completely cut-off from the dynamic side of reality. Are you saying
that this doesn't matter? Or are you just ignorant to the fact that computers
have no choice in what they do?
>> The 4 levels are supposed to depend on each lower level, right? So
>> where is the society in your view when a human is disconnected from
>> his? Can he still think rational thoughts without his society?
>
> A bit cryptic this one. All human beings are of the 3 first levels -
> not all has attained the 4th - so even if a person moves from one
> country to another it does not make him incapable of thinking.
> What strange notion is behind such a question.
It's just my "strange" notion of trying to make the MoQ into a real
metaphysics,
with which you can depend on rules *ALWAYS* being followed.
There is a rule in the MoQ that states that all higher levels depend on lower.
So, I ask a very straightforward question: What happens with your version of
level 4 when it no longer can depend on your version of level 3?
If the dependency rule is true, the level 4 patterns should collapse, and the
person being disconnected from his society will no longer posses level 4
patterns.
So, again, if a smart astronaut, having attained your level 4, is in orbit
around earth when suddenly, Apophis, the great asteroid hits. The crust of the
earth cracks open, giant shockwaves are sent around the earth until it reaches
the opposite side and when the waves merge, the combined wave shoots off
straight through the earth, causing a giant plume of magma to be expelled
through the original hole. The magma flows around the earth where the
shockwaves
traveled a few minutes ago and within 25 minutes of the hit, the earth's magma
is covering it with a 2km thick layer of liquid stone.
Now, when the shock wears off the poor astronaut, will he be able to think
about
thinking?
>> There you did it again. "So do we when focus is at that level". These
>> little formulations from you are a constant reminder that you seem to
>> only regard the levels as just different ways to focus a mind. When a
>> mind is hungry, it wants to eat, when it's lonely, it wants to chat
>> with a few friends, and when it's curious, it wants to make rational
>> arguments. But the world is about more than just minds having
>> different types of needs.
>
> Chris commented this so well that I need not add anything.
I just replied to him, feel free to try again.
>> Ok, but you missed describing a stone in terms of the levels.
>
> Why don't you make the said description, so that I know how?
Christoffer did, but for some reason, you keep refusing.
Magnus
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