Understood and agreed David, and Mati ... I was only focussing on the social constraint on intellect, not on physical / biological activities in general - finding something "definitive" about the social / intellectual distinction .... there are a zillion other interactive PoV's across the levels .... I think Mati has something in the "use of language" - ie "how" it's used, not just that it is used (which is common to both levels).
Be interested to hear Mati's reaction to my main response. Ian On 7/16/08, David M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Ian > > One thing, social means some laws and constraints > but also much co-operation. Social co-operation > increased our possibilities and makes us free to > achieve things that cannot be achieved without > co-operation. Nature is the first great constrainer and > society is a form of organisation to help us control > and adapt to the demands and limits of nature, > often embody culturall in ideas about some god > pulling the strings of nature and its bounty and > disasters, gifts and horrors. > > DM > > > > > > BTW one dot I failed to join up. > > > > If we take the working distinction based on ... > > Intellectual use of language tending to freedom & creation. > > Social luse of anguage tending to conservation & constratint. > > > > Then intellectual make perfect sense in an "individual" context, > > whereas social makes no sense without at least two individuals - the > > source of the "individual / collective" confusion maybe ? > > > > Ian > > > > On 7/15/08, Ian Glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hi Mati, > > > > > > I think you maybe discount those who "get" Bo's SOL but actually don't > > > entirely agree ? But anyway - you pose straightforward questions to > > > answer .... mine inserted below [IG] ... > > > > > > On 7/15/08, Mati Palm-Leis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > MD Group, > > > > > > > > I find it interesting that we continue to go round and round (I think > > it is > > > > now over 7 + years) on this issue of what is the intellectual level > > and > > > > what does it mean and how do we discern what an intellectual value is. > > > > This is a really good question with a variety of possible solutions > and > > > > understandings, some possibilities good, some lacking. I thought I > > would > > > > provide some humble thoughts on the matter with the disclaimer that > > overall > > > > I personally think Bodvar's approach with S/O divide being the basis > > for the > > > > intellectual level (in the static form) being the best one going. > > > > > > [IG] I've agreed with Bo before that the emergence of the S/O divide > > > is OK as the historical point at which the intellectual level emerged. > > > If that is all we want from MoQ - history - then I'd have no argument. > > > I just think it is plainly evident that the content of the > > > intellectual level is not "defined" by SOMism now and for all time ... > > > MoQ is an evolutionary model, with a future. Either the intellectual > > > includes that future or we predict further levels above the SoMist > > > level. There is more than SoMism, no ?. > > > > > > > amazed that he is able to endless explain and re-explain his point of > > view > > > > with only recently in the past year with some people "Getting it" to > > some > > > > degree. That being said here is a series of questions that might > > provide a > > > > litmus test to anybody who thinks they (including Bodvar) are able to > > better > > > > define or understand what the Intellectual level and intellectual > > values > > > > are. > > > > > > > > 1. How does your definition or understanding of intellectual > > > > level/value differentiate the social level from the intellectual level > > as > > > > well as social values from intellectual values? > > > > > > [IG] I think the main "axes" that define the difference are > > > social (constraint) vs intellectual (freedom), and > > > social (collective) vs intellectual (individual). > > > I've said this a million times. But exactly how ? Apart from the > > > directions / dimensions of these axes, I've never yet come to any firm > > > demarcation lines, so I simply treat these as many possible patterns > > > within one "cultural (socio-intellectual) level" (for now). > > > > > > > > 2. Given there is a evolutionary process to each of the levels, > > what > > > > is a possible historical point in which represents the likelihood for > > the > > > > birth of the Intellectual level, and what is the basis for this > > > > period/event(s) chosen? > > > > > > [IG] Yes. No problem with the birth of SOMism as the first incarnation > > > of the intellectual level. I'm just not satisfied that history is the > > > whole story. > > > > > > > > 3. I think (an assumption of mine) that both social and > > intellectual > > > > levels use language, but in different ways. Please describe how each > > level > > > > utilizes language to sustain its level? > > > > > > [IG] Precisely. This symbolic manipulation / semantic-lingustic > > > communication is shared by both levels (another reason I resist using > > > this as the definitive demarcation too). I think you identify a good > > > angle - the way language is used, rather than language per-se. > > > (Clearly SoMist language - invented at the emergence of the > > > intellectual - infected and spread to social level patterns too.) I > > > think the real difference is what the levels "seek to do" with > > > language - about intent, purpose, telos. Social tends to control / > > > conserve, Intellectual tends to freedom / creation. I've often formed > > > the interim conclusion that this is the best distinction we have. > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Given that intellectual values dominate it's parent level, > the > > > > social level, yet must sustain and maintain a relative harmony with > the > > > > social level. Given your definition or understanding of intellectual > > levels > > > > how do intellectual values do that? > > > > > > [IG] That is the $64,000 question. How do social constraints (best) > > > live in balanced harmony with intellectual freedoms ? My answer has > > > been evolving for 7 years so far. My latest thinking involves a telos > > > - a traditonal mythology - that sets future "direction" for "our > > > culture's" evolution. Scary thought. Whatever, I'm convinced there is > > > (by definition) no entirely intellectual (SOMist, trad-rationalist or > > > otherwise) answer to that question. Think about it. (clue - Nietzsche > > > / Godel / Wittgenstein / Hofstader and more.) > > > > > > > > I have read Lila and much of Pirsig's work and am very familiar with > > what > > > > Lila has to say about some of these questions in a general context. > > Yet in > > > > Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner he seems to have made his final > > contribution > > > > to this question. In a private final correspondence with him long > > ago, > > > > about a research question related to this very question of > intellectual > > > > values, he more or less has hung his hat his letter to Paul Turner in > > his > > > > addressing the intellectual level. That being said, and with the > > deepest > > > > sense of respect and gratitude for Mr. Pirsig, I feel that we have > > failed to > > > > really move forward on this question. > > > > > > [IG] I agree. Perhaps in the context of this Q&A, you should re-state > > > (simply in summary) Pirsig's position from that letter ? > > > > > > > Again I think Bodvar's approach, > > > > begins to provide the capacity to approach these, I believe, essential > > > > questions. Thus providing us with the capacity to move MOQ forward. > > > > > > [IG] Paradoxically - this is precisely my objection to Bo's approach - > > > great historically, not much use for moving forward ;-) (Great to have > > > your contribution Mati - pursue this thread to some "conclusion" for > > > all our sakes.) > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > Mati > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
