On Tuesday 15 July 2008 5:26 PM Mati writes to MD Group: <snip>
1. How does your definition or understanding of intellectual level/value differentiate the social level from the intellectual level as well as social values from intellectual values? 2. Given there is a evolutionary process to each of the levels, what is a possible historical point in which represents the likelihood for the birth of the Intellectual level, and what is the basis for this period/event(s) chosen? 3. I think (an assumption of mine) that both social and intellectual levels use language, but in different ways. Please describe how each level utilizes language to sustain its level? 4.Given that intellectual values dominate it's parent level, the social level, yet must sustain and maintain a relative harmony with the social level. Given your definition or understanding of intellectual levels how do intellectual values do that? <snip> Hi Mati and all, 1. My understanding of Intellectual level values are Subject/Object values. A S/O value has a dual relationship in the perception of a reality beyond words, undefined/defined. My understanding of Social level value is the value of consciousness which is indefinable. I am alone. The values of the subject are perceived at the social level. Society for an individual becomes mechanical as Culture hands us a set of glasses. He/she accepts the glasses from the parent or leader. Undefined self/awareness is lost in imitation. This void necessitated evolution to the intellectual level of law, where the S remains undefined and O becomes definable. 2. The historical point I see for the birth of the Intellectual level is the inscription of the ten commandments in stone. The movement to a law for order in consciousness was necessary. Slavery destroyed self-awareness. The Culture of slavery defines an S which has to remain undefined, hence the rebellion. A written Law evolved. The S/O relationship evolved, law. 3. The Social level uses language as a specific template. A judgment by a person and authority (force) is used to direct actions. The undefined at the social level is seen in metaphor, analogy. The intellectual level recognizes the autonomy of the undefined S in a person, and uses truth rather than force to influence behavior. The intellectual level recognizes a relationship between the defined and undefined elements in each statement. 4. Intellectual values accept the undefined in every action and establish a culture of law. Persuasion through education and rhetoric give insightful direction to the social level. I don¹t think that ³dominate² describes the relationship between intellect and society since it suggests force. Force is found in the social level for direction. The relationship between Intellect and society is not the police. Courts of law are persuasive by limiting behavior. Joe On 7/15/08 5:26 PM, "Mati Palm-Leis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > MD Group, > > I find it interesting that we continue to go round and round (I think it is > now over 7 + years) on this issue of what is the intellectual level and > what does it mean and how do we discern what an intellectual value is. > This is a really good question with a variety of possible solutions and > understandings, some possibilities good, some lacking. I thought I would > provide some humble thoughts on the matter with the disclaimer that overall > I personally think Bodvar's approach with S/O divide being the basis for the > intellectual level (in the static form) being the best one going. I am > amazed that he is able to endless explain and re-explain his point of view > with only recently in the past year with some people "Getting it" to some > degree. That being said here is a series of questions that might provide a > litmus test to anybody who thinks they (including Bodvar) are able to better > define or understand what the Intellectual level and intellectual values > are. > > > > 1. How does your definition or understanding of intellectual > level/value differentiate the social level from the intellectual level as > well as social values from intellectual values? > > 2. Given there is a evolutionary process to each of the levels, what > is a possible historical point in which represents the likelihood for the > birth of the Intellectual level, and what is the basis for this > period/event(s) chosen? > > 3. I think (an assumption of mine) that both social and intellectual > levels use language, but in different ways. Please describe how each level > utilizes language to sustain its level? > > 4. Given that intellectual values dominate it's parent level, the > social level, yet must sustain and maintain a relative harmony with the > social level. Given your definition or understanding of intellectual levels > how do intellectual values do that? > > > > I have read Lila and much of Pirsig's work and am very familiar with what > Lila has to say about some of these questions in a general context. Yet in > Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner he seems to have made his final contribution > to this question. In a private final correspondence with him long ago, > about a research question related to this very question of intellectual > values, he more or less has hung his hat his letter to Paul Turner in his > addressing the intellectual level. That being said, and with the deepest > sense of respect and gratitude for Mr. Pirsig, I feel that we have failed to > really move forward on this question. Again I think Bodvar's approach, > begins to provide the capacity to approach these, I believe, essential > questions. Thus providing us with the capacity to move MOQ forward. > > Sincerely, > > Mati > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
