Ham: I do not consider an altered state of consciousness "simple", nor would I expect psycho-therapists to treat it lightly.
Andre NLP does not take it lightly either...it shows the highest respect for the persons it assists.( at least it was like this 30 years ago...nowadays, a lot of 'would be' NLP'ers are only interested in how to use this knowledge to make a large buck very quickly having conveniently forgotten the ethics involved in using a very powerful process). It's just that "altered states of consciousness' occur dozens of times a day within each individual. Compare it to the different 'roles' we play every day: father, brother, neighbour, teacher, lover, driver, etc, etc. Ham: Apparently, the NLP movement started in the '70s as the work of two psychologists who ended up suing each other over patent rights, and is currently being touted as "a way of achieving new states of consciousness through neuroscience and ritual" by Philip H. Farber whose book is titled "Meta-Magick". (It sounds a bit hokey to me.) Andre: I don't give a shit what B&G are doing to eachother in court, fighting over intellectuel rights and the extra money it may bring (!!!) They are loaded as it is anyway so who cares?! I am interested in their ideas! As to Farber: I honestly say Ham, I do not know him/her but your short description is just bullshit! Ham: While it is doubtful that NLP can be considered a science, Andre: It is not a science, I made that clear in my previous posts. Ham: Actually that's a gross distortion of what classical metaphysics is -- all the worse for a philosopher seeking to advance a Metaphysics of Quality. Compare this description of metaphysics from answers.com: "Branch of philosophy that studies the ultimate structure and constitution of reality - i.e., of that which is real, insofar as it is real. The term, which means literally 'what comes after physics,' was used to refer to the treatise by Aristotle on what he himself called 'first philosophy.' In the history of Western philosophy, metaphysics has been understood in various ways: as an inquiry into what basic categories of things there are (e.g., the mental and the physical); as the study of reality, as opposed to appearance; as the study of the world as a whole; and as a theory of first principles." I ask you, what is "mystical" about this approach to understanding? Just because metaphysics is not Science doesn't make it mystical. Nor is metaphysics "anti-Science". Indeed, we got to Science along the path of logic and intuitive reasoning laid out by Aristotle. This has been a sore point with me since I started reading Pirsig. Andre: Not sure who you are trying to convince Ham, yourself? Can't see the link to NLP. Ham: Platt's point that the MoQ "says that reality is prior to conception and is therefore immediate, intuitive, undeliberate and involuntary" is well taken. What Pirsig calls "pre-intellectual experience" (but is really value-sensibility) is not a trance state, not "altered consciousness", not mystical contemplation. It is man's attempt to apply intellect and logic to a fundamental understanding of reality -- in this instance, based on the values that drive human behavior. Andre: And some people try but have difficulties with this Ham, not only with the intellectual level of understanding but also at the social level of just 'living'. Some people do want a little more satisfaction in their lives but are so screwed up through multilpe things ( remember Lila?) that they would like a little assistance. NLP is one way of providing that. I truly wish it could all be different but it isn't. I have said that NLP has nothing to offer intellectually. What I was searching for, through this discuss, was how, perhaps NLP insights could offer something to the social level...to make it stronger so that its offspring ( the intellectual level) can benefit. Ham: Thanks for your analysis of the SOM formulation as related to the NLP concept. Andre: I was afraid of this..never expected otherwise. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
