Ham to Andre: In your opening statement you refer (parenthetically) to "the S/O division, arising out of the social level became the intellectual level." I assume that, since there is no individual level for Pirsig, intellectual concepts are encompassed by the social level.
Andre: No Ham, the social level is encompassed by the intellectual level. That is: the intellectual level has supremacy over the social order. Ham: Where do you get the idea that SOM "is the absolute essence of the MoQ"? If Pirsig considered anything absolute or primary enough to be called "essence", it is Quality (DQ). And, as I understand his ontology, DQ doesn't participate in the SOM patterns. Andre: Sorry Ham, I have not made myself clear to you: DQ is the absolute essence of the MoQ. It is beyond intellectualisation. It is because of this that the fear remains that, SOM, because it can be intellectualised about keeps on overpowering/smothering the DQ part. Ham: > And, as Pirsig suggests DQ is 'half' of reality (in the Quality= DQ/SQ > split). Again, that's not my understanding. Pirsig equates pure Quality with Reality, not the DQ/SQ split. Where does he say or imply that DQ and SQ each constitute half of reality? Andre: The problem I see, (and Bodvar and Platt?) is that Pirsig HAS split Quality in DQ/SQ (I am not quibbling about percentages). Sorry but I was not suggesting the 50/50 split. Ham: If SOM doesn't recognize value, how does man recognize or experience it? Surely you're not suggesting that mankind was not aware of values before Pirsig introduced his Quality thesis. Andre: Indeed I am not suggesting this at all. I would go even further than that and say that there were many a person in the history of mankind aware of values, but that they have been persecuted, ostracised, burned at the stake, executed and/or institutionalised. That is, even before the intellectual level could arise out of the social level (non-conformity to rituals etc?) and non-conformity to the SOM inspired Intellectual level (because valueless). ( I am being a bit presumptuous here because I find it very difficult to 'imagine' what life was like without a 'dominant' intellectual level). Ham: Let's assume Pirsig is right that the primary reality (of existence) is Value. Isn't it conceivable that Value is existentially divided into "value-awareness" and "value-beingness"? Andre: With respect Ham NO! This has been the cause of my block. My fear that this type of SOM thinking and reasoning is around the corner everywhere and has a real go at undermining the Quality of the MOQ. I really appreciate you responding in this way Ham. Thank you for halping me clarifying things for myself. Regards Andre Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
