Bodvar to Andre: Andre previously:In the MOQ a culture is understood as a combination of social andintellectual patterns of value.
Bodvar: Who said so? It may have been said but it's nonsense, the Stone Agers were as intelligent as ourselves, but none of their cultures were intellectual. Andre: Ahum, ehhh I hate to say this but actually it was Mr. Pirsig... yep, and this is very troublesome to you isn't it Bodvar... the man has rescued you (going by your personal story)and you are blaming him and chastising him and correcting him and naming him nonsensical in the process of having done it! You, my friend, in true Aussie fashion, are an ungrateful bastard! And you, my friend, do not understand what Mr. Pirsig means! When, (did Mr. Pisig suggest) did intellectual patterns of value 'take over' and tried to 'run/govern/dominate society?: Armistice Day: November 11, 1918. (Australian Rememberance Day, the eleventh of the eleventh at eleven minutes past eleven... notice the ritualized expression of a low quality event??!!...to keep it alive in an attempt that 'we' may not repeat it. Your dismissal of Mr. Pirsig's designating of 'a culture is a combination of'... has little to do with what he meant by culture. Whether the intellectual level dominated or not is not the point. A culture, in whatever way it is expressing its relation to, and with, immediate experience ( i.e Quality) is relevant. Remember Mr. Pirsig saying that the (intellectual )search for meaning is a relatively recent fad? Well, you can look upon the intellectual level as trying to perform that feat as just that. But I think that the intellectual level is not enough developed for this undertaking. It is only a few thousand years old and put in charge only one hundred years ago. Place this against the evolutionary perspective and you'll see the (in) significance of this. Intellectual, patterned expressions arise out of social rituals and it is my humble opinion that those cultures that have lost the connection with this immediate experience have become relied upon 'postulated' (intellectual) givens ( the story of the West) as an intermediary to immediate experience. ( have you noticed how many pseudo psychological magazines have flooded the market, all of them containing variations on the same question:"Is it alright for me to feel this(or that)? Have you followed ZMM? Of course you have! Bodvar: Your "exasperated" tone begins to wear thin, You and Arlo don't (dare) face the argument that no level below intellect has any "regional" versions, why would intellect be an exception? Andre: Arlo is very, very capable of speaking for himself. What you are doing is suggesting that the French culture is the same as the American culture, the Inuit culture the same as the Chinese culture. What you do not recognize is that these cultures are different because their philosophical underpinnings are different. Their interpretation of 'the good' is different. Your SOM/SOL conviction does not allow you to recognize variation, difference of the same theme i.e different ways of responding to Quality i.e. immediate experience. Sad really. Bodvar: In the PT letter Pirsig affirms the SOL by "no use postulating an intellectual level before the Greeks" (= SOM in a Q context) and this was no polite gesture, ... Andre: He was annoyed. What is the meaning of 'the'? C'm on Bodvar! And your addition in the brackets is yours! Bodvar: ...but if THAT was the Upanishads era (as he claims) it is was an era of philosophy which is a search for objective truth (except religious philosophy which is a self-contradiction) Andre: You are repeating yourself, and your arguments Bodvar. It is getting late here and I am tired now. Will address this particular one in a next post...since when is truth 'objective'? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
