Hi Dan, It wasn't a topic that I initially presented. Dmb seemed interested in discussing it, so I made this suggestion. Marsha
On Apr 21, 2013, at 3:59 PM, Dan Glover <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello everyone > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 3:40 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Greetings, >> >> This is certainly a worthy topic, especially since the Wikipedia article >> states that it is a primary concern of Robert Pirsig. > > > Dan: > No one is denying that. The problem arises when certain people use > subject/object thinking to undermine the MOQ. > > >> Perhaps the folks from the LilaSquad could be invited back for a specified >> time period to open up this one topic. Or not... > > Dan: > What is keeping you from going there and discussing it? > > >> >> >> Marsha >> >> p.s. Please note that the MoQ Textbook states that Idealism is a form of >> SOM. >> >> >> 2.2. SUBJECT-OBJECT METAPHYSICS >> Pirsig uses the term ‘subject-object metaphysics’ (SOM) for any >> metaphysics (explicitly or implicitly) that perceives reality as either >> mind and/or matter such as idealism, materialism, and dualism. This >> recognition is not unique to Pirsig as, for instance, the Cambridge >> Dictionary of Philosophy also notes that ‘a subject-object dichotomy is >> acknowledged in most Western traditions’. >> (McWatt, Anthony, 'MoQ Textbook', 2010) > > Dan: > And? > > >> >> >> >> Wikipedia: >> >> The subject–object problem, a longstanding philosophical issue, is >> concerned with the analysis of human experience, and arises from the >> premise that the world consists of objects (entities) which are perceived >> or otherwise presumed to exist as entities, by subjects (observers). This >> division of experience results in questions regarding how subjects relate >> to objects. An important sub-topic is the question of how our own mind >> relates to other minds, and how to treat the "radical difference that holds >> between our access to our own experience and our access to the experience >> of all other human beings", known as the epistemological problem of other >> minds. The subject–object problem has two primary aspects. First is the >> question of "what" is known. The field of ontology deals with questions >> concerning what entities exist or can be said to exist, and how such >> entities can be grouped, related within a hierarchy, and subdivided >> according to similarities and differences. The second standpoint is that of >> "how" does one know what one knows. The field of epistemology questions >> what knowledge is, how it is acquired, and to what extent it is possible >> for a given entity to be known. It includes both subjects and objects. > > Dan: > How is this something we do not already know? > > >> >> ... >> >> Other approaches: >> >> Analytic philosophy discusses various aspects of the problem of subject >> and object such as the mind body problem, first-person versus third-person >> perspective and also issues of non-referential use of I presented by G. E. >> M. Anscombe. >> >> Robert M. Pirsig's philosophy of the Metaphysics of Quality is largely >> concerned with the subject–object problem. >> >> Sun Myung Moon's philosophy, Unification Thought, treats subject and >> object in a way different from classical ideas of Hegel and Marx. >> >> Philosopher Ken Wilber has written extensively on this, calling the >> omniscient view (or subject–object distinction) the fundamental modernist >> paradigm, and cataloging its effects on society, and in the way many >> subjects have been compressed into a "flat" view by this perspective. >> >> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject-object_problem > > Dan: > Again, no one here is denying any of this. Is there some point that I am > missing here? > > Dan > > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
