Simon P. Lucy wrote:
> m.u.general (for all the wibbling)
> m.u.wishlist
> m.u.support (no there isn't any go away)
> m.u.mailnews (for mail and newsreader)
If there is .mailnews, you should also have .browser. Or, worst case,
people go to m.d.apps.browser. (Depending on the software, the "dev"
might not be visible.) Anyway, general != browser - again your
browser-centric world view :-).
But you see, you get a whole bunch of newsgroups. Now, then tell people
that Mozilla is not for users. They will point to that hierarchy and
ask: "What's that, then? I guess, these groups were created in error?
(hint: sarcasm!)".
> Umm if you think that kind of grief is anything like the kind of grief
> that a support group get then you're being naive. I've worked all
> sides of the track, perhaps that gives me a more philosophical
> attitude and better filters than most.
I didn't commit to do user-support myself forever ;). At the moment,
users are *very* friendly.
>> and leave only those who really care about the project.
>
> Its the latter end of that sentence that can mislead people to think
> that mozilla.org doesn't want users period.
Well, that's the fact, not? Of course, mozilla.org wants users
indirectly through distributors.
> Users can care about development and product
For the sake of this discussion, let's define user as somebody who
doesn't *not* care very much about the product details and the
development, e.g. doesn't read the release-notes, installation
instructions or is unwilling to try around a bit to find out what went
wrong.
> in some ways they can be far more passionate than any marketeer (and
> sincerely so which makes a change).
We don't want marketeers either. (I hope, you don't count me as one, now!)
> When I'm trying to explain Mozilla and mozilla.org to suits I use the
> analogy that mozilla.org is just like any other development company,
> it has the same functions. Some of those functions though are a
> little hard to tie down, Marketing is one of them.
Explain mozilla.org as development *department*, and all falls into its
place. (Including this discussion, IMO.)
> In a very real sense those users that are willing to get involved are
> a part of that Marketing.
As I said, I see them as QA.
> Now I know what you mean by 'those who really care about the project.'
> but for some it will just look like antagonism.
Well, I didn't suggest to write that on the webpage :). More like
something between the lines ('if you use that, prepare to have to invest
time').
> I think calling them untested weekly builds should scare off the
> casual user.
OK, plus hiding them, plus suggesting distributors for "users". That
might work.
>>> If there is no distribution which is a simple build of a milestone
>>> then I'm sure mirrors will pop up but if they do they should be
>>> prepared to support them.
>>
> Well, the polishing means its different (I'm not complaining about
> the difference, just making it clear), Beonex != Mozilla in lesser
> ways to Netscape != Mozilla. Agreed in all practical senses it is
> the same as the milestone, but it needn't be in the future.
Agreed.
> In other words it can't be used as a reference build which is the one
> useful thing a milestone build does.
I thought, the purpose of milestones, at least at the current point,
were to offer stable, tested code for distributors? As such, no binaries
needed. (Unless you have a distributor without a (non-free) compiler,
like me ;-P.)
>> But I think, you'd do that (in part) by creating a users hierarchy.
>
> Not if all that hierarchy does is to point users to the right place.
> Then its a positive benefit.
Oh, you (everybody else?) suggested to create fake newsgroups, which are
flooded by redirect posts? That might work. But only, if we are really
consequent. I.e. answer each and every post automatically just with a
"you are wrong. go to ...".
>> Will do as soon as I have time. If somebody wants to do that work,
>> (s)he is welcome to take over that task.
>
> It probably needs some considerable thought as to how and when to
> pass through to bugzilla.mozilla.org
Yes. But first we need to have it running :).
