I agree with Nick in that I have at lease 6 Muxed clocks that have been running for years on end without incident. And I have 2 of Jeff’s/Pete Hands FLW clocks that have been running for years as well. BUT, the fact remains a direct drive clock will produce a brighter tube. So, if thats a concern, a direct drive design might be preferable. AND if you have 6) 7971’s looking for a home, we still have Lumina Kits available! You will need to build you own case. http://www.badnixie.com/Badnixie.com_Welcome.html On Tuesday, September 24, 2024 at 10:17:38 AM UTC-7 Nicholas Stock wrote:
> Understood. However (and this has been a discussion many many times on > this forum), I think multiplexing gets too much hate. I've had multiplexed > (IN14) clocks that are still going strong over 10 years now with no > noticeable deterioration in the tube, so my opinion differs from some, in > fact you will find specific multiplexing details in some nixie tube > datasheets (Burroughs wrote an application note on just this topic - > https://neonkev.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/n101.pdf). I understand > all the comments about increased current for similar brightness etc and how > that *may* impact tube life, especially when dealing with tubes that are > becoming rarer and rarer, but it may be a bit overly cautious? > > ... bracing for the can of worms this may unleash on the forum.... :) > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 9:59 AM Chachi88 <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Nick, >> >> This design uses a multiplex scheme, which as discussed is considered >> undesirable as it impacts tube life. I have seen this design but am >> looking for a direct drive alternative. I am seeing that there is a >> "smartsocket" that supports this tube...interesting. >> >> Thanks >> >> On Monday, September 23, 2024 at 3:42:55 PM UTC-4 Nicholas Stock wrote: >> >>> https://www.thomasnixie.com/the-gps-flw-nixie-clock >>> >>> Still available without tubes etc if you're interested... >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 12:31 PM Chachi88 <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I don't think I have enough tubes to do 3 6-tube clocks. I am also >>>> noticing that all the FLW circuits and boards I am finding seem to be >>>> multiplex drive, which is undesirable from what we have discussed...but I >>>> would love to be proven wrong. If not, there might be an opportunity >>>> here... >>>> >>>> Thanks again y'all. >>>> On Monday, September 23, 2024 at 12:10:01 PM UTC-4 MichaelB wrote: >>>> >>>>> I do. Still 5 or so in stock. Thanks Nick >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, September 23, 2024 at 8:26:10 AM UTC-7 Nicholas Stock wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> There's always the MOD_6 in case you're not familiar with it... I >>>>>> believe Michael may have some left? >>>>>> >>>>>> http://badnixie.com/Badnixie.com_Welcome.html >>>>>> >>>>>> @Michael Barile ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> >>>>>> Nick >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 8:05 AM Chachi88 <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Richard, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks I will PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gregebert, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Funny you should mention the B7971, in this lot with the NL8091s I >>>>>>> also received an armload of these tubes (they actually have the same >>>>>>> socket), funnily enough... You wouldn't happen to have a FLW clock >>>>>>> design >>>>>>> using your circuitry available? That will be next on my hit-list and I >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> need kits to make 3 clocks (one will be a gift to the person who gave >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> all these tubes). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks so much for your help, folks. >>>>>>> On Thursday, September 19, 2024 at 2:32:49 AM UTC-4 Richard Scales >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think I have some info at nixology.uk under the PRISM-18 project >>>>>>>> page. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Full NTP Sync (clock needs wifi), web gui, pir activation, >>>>>>>> etc/etc/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PM me for any more info. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - Richard >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday 18 September 2024 at 21:33:00 UTC+1 Chachi88 wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> First off, thank you guys very much for your input here, I will >>>>>>>>> address them most recent to oldest. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Peter, >>>>>>>>> I apologize I cannot view this link I do not use facebook. I also >>>>>>>>> cannot find a link to Richard Scales B-8091 clock PCB that you >>>>>>>>> mention. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nicholas Stock, >>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for showing me this website, I had come across it >>>>>>>>> also, but was discouraged by the "sold out" notification for this >>>>>>>>> board. >>>>>>>>> Is there any way I can message the seller, you think? I really like >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> the features this board has already implemented for me...but maybe >>>>>>>>> greg's >>>>>>>>> first comment is calling my name... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> gregebert, >>>>>>>>> Thanks for the very informative points, I have addressed my >>>>>>>>> responses and followup questions individually below in *Italics.* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> #1. I dont like sockets because they put stress on the tube pins. >>>>>>>>> Some of them grip the pins very hard and it's difficult to insert or >>>>>>>>> remove >>>>>>>>> the tubes, which adds to the risk of bending or breaking the pins or >>>>>>>>> putting stress on the glass. Instead, I use socket pins soldered into >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> PCB, and the force to insert/remove tubes is very low. >>>>>>>>> *Point taken, I will look at my sockets carefully before >>>>>>>>> considering using them. Otherwise I will probably borrow your idea, >>>>>>>>> cheers.* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> #2. Direct drive. There's no need to multiplex individual tubes, >>>>>>>>> and there's no cost benefit when tubes are worth hundreds of dollars >>>>>>>>> apiece >>>>>>>>> and the drive electronics is at most a few dollars. Multiplexing >>>>>>>>> requires >>>>>>>>> higher current, and that degrades the tube's lifetime. >>>>>>>>> *This is what I have understood as well, thanks for confirming.* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> #3. Use a current regulator, and set the current at the >>>>>>>>> recommended spec value; too high and you wear-out the tube. Too low >>>>>>>>> and you >>>>>>>>> risk cathode poisoning. A single anode resistor per-tube is OK, but >>>>>>>>> as the >>>>>>>>> anode voltage varies, so does the current (no such problem with a >>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>> regulator, though). You can mitigate this by using a higher anode >>>>>>>>> supply >>>>>>>>> voltage and larger anode resistor, at the expense of more wasted >>>>>>>>> energy. As >>>>>>>>> tubes age, their striking voltage may increase, so having a higher >>>>>>>>> anode >>>>>>>>> voltage will help mitigate this. >>>>>>>>> *Understood, is this implemented a current regulator per tube or >>>>>>>>> is this a single current regulator? If single current regulator, how >>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> you account for possibly having varying current with different digit >>>>>>>>> activation? or am I missing an operating principle here?* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> #4. PIR sensor. Turn off the tubes if nobody is there to watch >>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>> *This will definitely be part of the overall clock design (also >>>>>>>>> incorporating a Noritake Itron 20 character 5x7 VFD). I plan on >>>>>>>>> having a >>>>>>>>> smoked plexiglass case housing the electronics and VFD while mounting >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> nixie tubes on top. Which leads on to our next point...* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> #5. Protect the tubes inside a case, and make sure there is enough >>>>>>>>> ventilation so the heat doesn't build-up inside. On my later designs >>>>>>>>> I have >>>>>>>>> a thermal sensor (sometimes several) so that software can monitor >>>>>>>>> critical >>>>>>>>> temperatures and shutdown if things get too warm. >>>>>>>>> *If the tubes are always going to be high up in the air (on a >>>>>>>>> dedicated wall shelf), is casing them necessary? Could not casing >>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>> cause convection heat to rise around them and risk stressing the >>>>>>>>> glass? >>>>>>>>> The thermal sensor is a good idea, for the inside of my case I will >>>>>>>>> certainly implement this, probably in multiple spots as you >>>>>>>>> suggested. Do >>>>>>>>> people ever put thermocouples on the tubes themselves to monitor heat >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> could you see value in it? I might consider that in my design.* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> #6. Depoisoning routine to exercise all cathodes. >>>>>>>>> *This is not the first time I have read of depoisoning (a common >>>>>>>>> feature on most bonafide driver boards I have seen). I have also seen >>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>> are different marketed techniques for depoisoning: slot machine, >>>>>>>>> strobe, >>>>>>>>> etc...* >>>>>>>>> *What are the principles behind cathode poisoning and the theory >>>>>>>>> of prevention? If this has already been documented somewhere please >>>>>>>>> give me >>>>>>>>> strength on my journey you send me on.* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> #7. Backlighting (or base lighting). I havn't done this on any of >>>>>>>>> my clocks, and I've never had problems with tubes not firing-up. >>>>>>>>> Others >>>>>>>>> have reported problems without backlighting. It can have aesthetic >>>>>>>>> value, >>>>>>>>> though I'm not fond of it. >>>>>>>>> *I tend to agree with you, for me, this was considered >>>>>>>>> aesthetically not necessary, but if there is value in ensuring >>>>>>>>> operation, I >>>>>>>>> will plan on incorporating this in the design even if it is left >>>>>>>>> partially >>>>>>>>> implemented in hardware or neglected in software...* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That should cover the necessities for the tubes; there are always >>>>>>>>> lots of other features that can be done, especially if the clock has >>>>>>>>> open-source software (or you develop it on your own). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Thank you again sincerely for expounding this much on this, I in >>>>>>>>> the end, I am hoping to find a clock/driver board with open source >>>>>>>>> software >>>>>>>>> or just raw signal input pins exposed that way I can incorporate it >>>>>>>>> in with >>>>>>>>> my VFD with minimal additional effort expounded on the nixie driver >>>>>>>>> block >>>>>>>>> (because it has already been done probably way better than I would do >>>>>>>>> it on >>>>>>>>> a first pass). I can then address it, animate it, etc. with a >>>>>>>>> microcontroller of my own...* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2024 at 11:05:11 AM UTC-4 Nicholas >>>>>>>>> Stock wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Pete also has a remote driver system that will work with >>>>>>>>>> B8091s... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.pvelectronics.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=43 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 2024, at 07:16, Peter Doroba <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is the clock I made using Richard Scales B-8091 clock PCB. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/142414439207058/search/?q=b-8091 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2024 at 12:41:14 AM UTC-4 gregebert >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Those are very valuable tubes, so if you are willing to design >>>>>>>>>>> your own driver and the PC board, I would do that. I've made >>>>>>>>>>> several clocks >>>>>>>>>>> and never had a design problem that affected the tubes. Even if you >>>>>>>>>>> find a >>>>>>>>>>> board to purchase, see if any of the following apply: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Some of my suggestions: >>>>>>>>>>> #1. I dont like sockets because they put stress on the tube >>>>>>>>>>> pins. Some of them grip the pins very hard and it's difficult to >>>>>>>>>>> insert or >>>>>>>>>>> remove the tubes, which adds to the risk of bending or breaking the >>>>>>>>>>> pins or >>>>>>>>>>> putting stress on the glass. Instead, I use socket pins soldered >>>>>>>>>>> into the >>>>>>>>>>> PCB, and the force to insert/remove tubes is very low. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> #2. Direct drive. There's no need to multiplex individual tubes, >>>>>>>>>>> and there's no cost benefit when tubes are worth hundreds of >>>>>>>>>>> dollars apiece >>>>>>>>>>> and the drive electronics is at most a few dollars. Multiplexing >>>>>>>>>>> requires >>>>>>>>>>> higher current, and that degrades the tube's lifetime. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> #3. Use a current regulator, and set the current at the >>>>>>>>>>> recommended spec value; too high and you wear-out the tube. Too low >>>>>>>>>>> and you >>>>>>>>>>> risk cathode poisoning. A single anode resistor per-tube is OK, but >>>>>>>>>>> as the >>>>>>>>>>> anode voltage varies, so does the current (no such problem with a >>>>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>>>> regulator, though). You can mitigate this by using a higher anode >>>>>>>>>>> supply >>>>>>>>>>> voltage and larger anode resistor, at the expense of more wasted >>>>>>>>>>> energy. As >>>>>>>>>>> tubes age, their striking voltage may increase, so having a higher >>>>>>>>>>> anode >>>>>>>>>>> voltage will help mitigate this. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> #4. PIR sensor. Turn off the tubes if nobody is there to watch >>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> #5. Protect the tubes inside a case, and make sure there is >>>>>>>>>>> enough ventilation so the heat doesn't build-up inside. On my later >>>>>>>>>>> designs >>>>>>>>>>> I have a thermal sensor (sometimes several) so that software can >>>>>>>>>>> monitor >>>>>>>>>>> critical temperatures and shutdown if things get too warm. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> #6. Depoisoning routine to exercise all cathodes. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> #7. Backlighting (or base lighting). I havn't done this on any >>>>>>>>>>> of my clocks, and I've never had problems with tubes not firing-up. >>>>>>>>>>> Others >>>>>>>>>>> have reported problems without backlighting. It can have aesthetic >>>>>>>>>>> value, >>>>>>>>>>> though I'm not fond of it. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That should cover the necessities for the tubes; there are >>>>>>>>>>> always lots of other features that can be done, especially if the >>>>>>>>>>> clock has >>>>>>>>>>> open-source software (or you develop it on your own). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, September 17, 2024 at 8:17:28 PM UTC-7 Chachi88 >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am climbing stairs from the foot of the mountain to sit at >>>>>>>>>>>> the feet of all you nixie gurus. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What is the current state of the art for remote driver boards? >>>>>>>>>>>> I am aware some of the older drivers are not as reliable or can >>>>>>>>>>>> cause the >>>>>>>>>>>> tubes to degrade quicker. Some of the new options I am seeing >>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>> "cathode poisoning prevention" I have recently come upon qty 6 of >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> NL8091's and their original sockets and socket mounting plate, >>>>>>>>>>>> which I wish >>>>>>>>>>>> to reuse for a clock. Are there any off the shelf boards even >>>>>>>>>>>> capable of >>>>>>>>>>>> driving this tube? I was looking at a board on ebay that comes >>>>>>>>>>>> with an IR >>>>>>>>>>>> remote but it seems too good to be true, I would be willing to >>>>>>>>>>>> spend 5 >>>>>>>>>>>> times as much for a board that was properly documented and put >>>>>>>>>>>> together and >>>>>>>>>>>> had some sort of pedigree... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for any advice or direction you can give. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/bac36066-03e6-4a6e-a83a-69020b75572fn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/bac36066-03e6-4a6e-a83a-69020b75572fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/24034a0a-3836-4449-9693-1eb861b77570n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/24034a0a-3836-4449-9693-1eb861b77570n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/6c53bfce-70bc-406b-8b68-04bb086d14a8n%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/6c53bfce-70bc-406b-8b68-04bb086d14a8n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "neonixie-l" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> > To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/89307466-2c08-483e-8cfb-73abd5dc7b35n%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/89307466-2c08-483e-8cfb-73abd5dc7b35n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/107c0a87-4aa3-49e4-9bca-db4c14c66e36n%40googlegroups.com.
