Understood. However (and this has been a discussion many many times on this forum), I think multiplexing gets too much hate. I've had multiplexed (IN14) clocks that are still going strong over 10 years now with no noticeable deterioration in the tube, so my opinion differs from some, in fact you will find specific multiplexing details in some nixie tube datasheets (Burroughs wrote an application note on just this topic - https://neonkev.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/n101.pdf). I understand all the comments about increased current for similar brightness etc and how that *may* impact tube life, especially when dealing with tubes that are becoming rarer and rarer, but it may be a bit overly cautious?
... bracing for the can of worms this may unleash on the forum.... :) On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 9:59 AM Chachi88 <[email protected]> wrote: > Nick, > > This design uses a multiplex scheme, which as discussed is considered > undesirable as it impacts tube life. I have seen this design but am > looking for a direct drive alternative. I am seeing that there is a > "smartsocket" that supports this tube...interesting. > > Thanks > > On Monday, September 23, 2024 at 3:42:55 PM UTC-4 Nicholas Stock wrote: > >> https://www.thomasnixie.com/the-gps-flw-nixie-clock >> >> Still available without tubes etc if you're interested... >> >> Nick >> >> On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 12:31 PM Chachi88 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I don't think I have enough tubes to do 3 6-tube clocks. I am also >>> noticing that all the FLW circuits and boards I am finding seem to be >>> multiplex drive, which is undesirable from what we have discussed...but I >>> would love to be proven wrong. If not, there might be an opportunity >>> here... >>> >>> Thanks again y'all. >>> On Monday, September 23, 2024 at 12:10:01 PM UTC-4 MichaelB wrote: >>> >>>> I do. Still 5 or so in stock. Thanks Nick >>>> >>>> On Monday, September 23, 2024 at 8:26:10 AM UTC-7 Nicholas Stock wrote: >>>> >>>>> There's always the MOD_6 in case you're not familiar with it... I >>>>> believe Michael may have some left? >>>>> >>>>> http://badnixie.com/Badnixie.com_Welcome.html >>>>> >>>>> @Michael Barile ? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> Nick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 8:05 AM Chachi88 <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Richard, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks I will PM >>>>>> >>>>>> gregebert, >>>>>> >>>>>> Funny you should mention the B7971, in this lot with the NL8091s I >>>>>> also received an armload of these tubes (they actually have the same >>>>>> socket), funnily enough... You wouldn't happen to have a FLW clock >>>>>> design >>>>>> using your circuitry available? That will be next on my hit-list and I >>>>>> will >>>>>> need kits to make 3 clocks (one will be a gift to the person who gave me >>>>>> all these tubes). >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks so much for your help, folks. >>>>>> On Thursday, September 19, 2024 at 2:32:49 AM UTC-4 Richard Scales >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think I have some info at nixology.uk under the PRISM-18 project >>>>>>> page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Full NTP Sync (clock needs wifi), web gui, pir activation, >>>>>>> etc/etc/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PM me for any more info. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Richard >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday 18 September 2024 at 21:33:00 UTC+1 Chachi88 wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> First off, thank you guys very much for your input here, I will >>>>>>>> address them most recent to oldest. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Peter, >>>>>>>> I apologize I cannot view this link I do not use facebook. I also >>>>>>>> cannot find a link to Richard Scales B-8091 clock PCB that you mention. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nicholas Stock, >>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for showing me this website, I had come across it >>>>>>>> also, but was discouraged by the "sold out" notification for this >>>>>>>> board. >>>>>>>> Is there any way I can message the seller, you think? I really like >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> the features this board has already implemented for me...but maybe >>>>>>>> greg's >>>>>>>> first comment is calling my name... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gregebert, >>>>>>>> Thanks for the very informative points, I have addressed my >>>>>>>> responses and followup questions individually below in *Italics.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> #1. I dont like sockets because they put stress on the tube pins. >>>>>>>> Some of them grip the pins very hard and it's difficult to insert or >>>>>>>> remove >>>>>>>> the tubes, which adds to the risk of bending or breaking the pins or >>>>>>>> putting stress on the glass. Instead, I use socket pins soldered into >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> PCB, and the force to insert/remove tubes is very low. >>>>>>>> *Point taken, I will look at my sockets carefully before >>>>>>>> considering using them. Otherwise I will probably borrow your idea, >>>>>>>> cheers.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> #2. Direct drive. There's no need to multiplex individual tubes, >>>>>>>> and there's no cost benefit when tubes are worth hundreds of dollars >>>>>>>> apiece >>>>>>>> and the drive electronics is at most a few dollars. Multiplexing >>>>>>>> requires >>>>>>>> higher current, and that degrades the tube's lifetime. >>>>>>>> *This is what I have understood as well, thanks for confirming.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> #3. Use a current regulator, and set the current at the recommended >>>>>>>> spec value; too high and you wear-out the tube. Too low and you risk >>>>>>>> cathode poisoning. A single anode resistor per-tube is OK, but as the >>>>>>>> anode >>>>>>>> voltage varies, so does the current (no such problem with a current >>>>>>>> regulator, though). You can mitigate this by using a higher anode >>>>>>>> supply >>>>>>>> voltage and larger anode resistor, at the expense of more wasted >>>>>>>> energy. As >>>>>>>> tubes age, their striking voltage may increase, so having a higher >>>>>>>> anode >>>>>>>> voltage will help mitigate this. >>>>>>>> *Understood, is this implemented a current regulator per tube or is >>>>>>>> this a single current regulator? If single current regulator, how do >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> account for possibly having varying current with different digit >>>>>>>> activation? or am I missing an operating principle here?* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> #4. PIR sensor. Turn off the tubes if nobody is there to watch them. >>>>>>>> *This will definitely be part of the overall clock design (also >>>>>>>> incorporating a Noritake Itron 20 character 5x7 VFD). I plan on >>>>>>>> having a >>>>>>>> smoked plexiglass case housing the electronics and VFD while mounting >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> nixie tubes on top. Which leads on to our next point...* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> #5. Protect the tubes inside a case, and make sure there is enough >>>>>>>> ventilation so the heat doesn't build-up inside. On my later designs I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> a thermal sensor (sometimes several) so that software can monitor >>>>>>>> critical >>>>>>>> temperatures and shutdown if things get too warm. >>>>>>>> *If the tubes are always going to be high up in the air (on a >>>>>>>> dedicated wall shelf), is casing them necessary? Could not casing them >>>>>>>> cause convection heat to rise around them and risk stressing the glass? >>>>>>>> The thermal sensor is a good idea, for the inside of my case I will >>>>>>>> certainly implement this, probably in multiple spots as you suggested. >>>>>>>> Do >>>>>>>> people ever put thermocouples on the tubes themselves to monitor heat >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> could you see value in it? I might consider that in my design.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> #6. Depoisoning routine to exercise all cathodes. >>>>>>>> *This is not the first time I have read of depoisoning (a common >>>>>>>> feature on most bonafide driver boards I have seen). I have also seen >>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>> are different marketed techniques for depoisoning: slot machine, >>>>>>>> strobe, >>>>>>>> etc...* >>>>>>>> *What are the principles behind cathode poisoning and the theory of >>>>>>>> prevention? If this has already been documented somewhere please give >>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>> strength on my journey you send me on.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> #7. Backlighting (or base lighting). I havn't done this on any of >>>>>>>> my clocks, and I've never had problems with tubes not firing-up. Others >>>>>>>> have reported problems without backlighting. It can have aesthetic >>>>>>>> value, >>>>>>>> though I'm not fond of it. >>>>>>>> *I tend to agree with you, for me, this was considered >>>>>>>> aesthetically not necessary, but if there is value in ensuring >>>>>>>> operation, I >>>>>>>> will plan on incorporating this in the design even if it is left >>>>>>>> partially >>>>>>>> implemented in hardware or neglected in software...* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That should cover the necessities for the tubes; there are always >>>>>>>> lots of other features that can be done, especially if the clock has >>>>>>>> open-source software (or you develop it on your own). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Thank you again sincerely for expounding this much on this, I in >>>>>>>> the end, I am hoping to find a clock/driver board with open source >>>>>>>> software >>>>>>>> or just raw signal input pins exposed that way I can incorporate it in >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> my VFD with minimal additional effort expounded on the nixie driver >>>>>>>> block >>>>>>>> (because it has already been done probably way better than I would do >>>>>>>> it on >>>>>>>> a first pass). I can then address it, animate it, etc. with a >>>>>>>> microcontroller of my own...* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2024 at 11:05:11 AM UTC-4 Nicholas >>>>>>>> Stock wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pete also has a remote driver system that will work with B8091s... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.pvelectronics.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=43 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 2024, at 07:16, Peter Doroba <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is the clock I made using Richard Scales B-8091 clock PCB. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/142414439207058/search/?q=b-8091 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2024 at 12:41:14 AM UTC-4 gregebert >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Those are very valuable tubes, so if you are willing to design >>>>>>>>>> your own driver and the PC board, I would do that. I've made several >>>>>>>>>> clocks >>>>>>>>>> and never had a design problem that affected the tubes. Even if you >>>>>>>>>> find a >>>>>>>>>> board to purchase, see if any of the following apply: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Some of my suggestions: >>>>>>>>>> #1. I dont like sockets because they put stress on the tube pins. >>>>>>>>>> Some of them grip the pins very hard and it's difficult to insert or >>>>>>>>>> remove >>>>>>>>>> the tubes, which adds to the risk of bending or breaking the pins or >>>>>>>>>> putting stress on the glass. Instead, I use socket pins soldered >>>>>>>>>> into the >>>>>>>>>> PCB, and the force to insert/remove tubes is very low. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> #2. Direct drive. There's no need to multiplex individual tubes, >>>>>>>>>> and there's no cost benefit when tubes are worth hundreds of dollars >>>>>>>>>> apiece >>>>>>>>>> and the drive electronics is at most a few dollars. Multiplexing >>>>>>>>>> requires >>>>>>>>>> higher current, and that degrades the tube's lifetime. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> #3. Use a current regulator, and set the current at the >>>>>>>>>> recommended spec value; too high and you wear-out the tube. Too low >>>>>>>>>> and you >>>>>>>>>> risk cathode poisoning. A single anode resistor per-tube is OK, but >>>>>>>>>> as the >>>>>>>>>> anode voltage varies, so does the current (no such problem with a >>>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>>> regulator, though). You can mitigate this by using a higher anode >>>>>>>>>> supply >>>>>>>>>> voltage and larger anode resistor, at the expense of more wasted >>>>>>>>>> energy. As >>>>>>>>>> tubes age, their striking voltage may increase, so having a higher >>>>>>>>>> anode >>>>>>>>>> voltage will help mitigate this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> #4. PIR sensor. Turn off the tubes if nobody is there to watch >>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> #5. Protect the tubes inside a case, and make sure there is >>>>>>>>>> enough ventilation so the heat doesn't build-up inside. On my later >>>>>>>>>> designs >>>>>>>>>> I have a thermal sensor (sometimes several) so that software can >>>>>>>>>> monitor >>>>>>>>>> critical temperatures and shutdown if things get too warm. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> #6. Depoisoning routine to exercise all cathodes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> #7. Backlighting (or base lighting). I havn't done this on any of >>>>>>>>>> my clocks, and I've never had problems with tubes not firing-up. >>>>>>>>>> Others >>>>>>>>>> have reported problems without backlighting. It can have aesthetic >>>>>>>>>> value, >>>>>>>>>> though I'm not fond of it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That should cover the necessities for the tubes; there are always >>>>>>>>>> lots of other features that can be done, especially if the clock has >>>>>>>>>> open-source software (or you develop it on your own). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, September 17, 2024 at 8:17:28 PM UTC-7 Chachi88 wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am climbing stairs from the foot of the mountain to sit at the >>>>>>>>>>> feet of all you nixie gurus. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What is the current state of the art for remote driver boards? >>>>>>>>>>> I am aware some of the older drivers are not as reliable or can >>>>>>>>>>> cause the >>>>>>>>>>> tubes to degrade quicker. Some of the new options I am seeing have >>>>>>>>>>> "cathode poisoning prevention" I have recently come upon qty 6 of >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> NL8091's and their original sockets and socket mounting plate, >>>>>>>>>>> which I wish >>>>>>>>>>> to reuse for a clock. Are there any off the shelf boards even >>>>>>>>>>> capable of >>>>>>>>>>> driving this tube? I was looking at a board on ebay that comes >>>>>>>>>>> with an IR >>>>>>>>>>> remote but it seems too good to be true, I would be willing to >>>>>>>>>>> spend 5 >>>>>>>>>>> times as much for a board that was properly documented and put >>>>>>>>>>> together and >>>>>>>>>>> had some sort of pedigree... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for any advice or direction you can give. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/bac36066-03e6-4a6e-a83a-69020b75572fn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/bac36066-03e6-4a6e-a83a-69020b75572fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> >>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/24034a0a-3836-4449-9693-1eb861b77570n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/24034a0a-3836-4449-9693-1eb861b77570n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/6c53bfce-70bc-406b-8b68-04bb086d14a8n%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/6c53bfce-70bc-406b-8b68-04bb086d14a8n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "neonixie-l" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/89307466-2c08-483e-8cfb-73abd5dc7b35n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/89307466-2c08-483e-8cfb-73abd5dc7b35n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. 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