Hi Nicole, Yes these are the subtle changes I noticed with each of our kids as they approached adolescence too - just covering up etc. our 12 year old (born when his oldest sibling was almost 18! so the older kids all see babies and breasts and birth as normal and natural) is likely to run through the bathroom to clean his teeth whoever is there (much to his 20 year old sisters dismay).
I think it's beautiful that your son sleeps in your family nest. I am certain mothering is more "effortless" when kids can have night time cuddles etc. Of course I would be the first to say there are still no guarantees for a perfect child - as a dear friend who was a director in Plunket (NZ) says, this connected parenting wont guarantee they wont smoke dope at 14 -but they WILL come and tell you if they do! I wonder if your son's "innocence" is because he is the oldest and cocooned in a wholesome family environment. My older kids were less "streetwise" but the youngest swore as a preschooler -I must say I swear a bit, but the sexual crap is rife among some of his mates (Of course there are other lovely kids more like your son too). I took a car load of boys (neighbouring kids) out last weekend for a romp in the hills and threatened to drop a couple of them out to walk home I was so sick of the stupid talk - I must say none of these 3 kids has parents who give a damn, two boys live only with their dads and dont have contact with their mums, so even a bedtime cuddle is not an option - they are surprised James still has bedtime stories and cant believe how he can survive without soft drinks and biscuits in the house -none of them even drink water, well there isnt an option here unless they want to juice up some veges and fruit. I find it incredibly difficult living in the suburbs where there are many families adrift in many ways and as kids grow we need to let them choose their friends. My kids have always been pretty sensible with lovely friends from all sorts of families, but Im noticing a change in families over the last few years and quite a lot of kids in James classes have parents not much older than his siblings yet have step children plus new bubs to a new partner, other wise many parents are working long hours so there doesnt seem to be a hearth at home . I know Im lucky I can be flexible with my own work so its not a judgement, rather an observation. I asked him if he'd like to invite some new friends from high school (hes just started) to stay over at the weekend but he said "they re all divorced so they have to go to their other parents." (he has just slept over with some kids from a games club he belongs to -all quite studious kids and a bit more "innocent") Just a pity there isnt more support for nurturing at all ages, isnt it? Pinky. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole Christensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:09 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] older children and co-sleeping > re. older children co-sleeping..... > I don't shower with my almost 12 yr old son - (although he sees me in the > shower when in and out of the bathroom as children do) yet he often sleeps > in our room (in the single bed next to his 2 yr old brother... who is next > to me in the queen bed... who is next to our baby....). He slept more > frequently in his own bed and room before baby no. 3 (who is now 7 1/2 > months) arrived... yet after Ezra's beautiful homebirth.... and the rest of > our little family all snuggled up in our room/nest (with the heater on - as > it was Winter) - I felt sorry for our eldest - who seemed on the 'outer'... > and casually offered that he could pull up a mattress on the floor if he > wanted.... and he has pretty much been there ever since... > Our eldest son is a gorgeous kid - a remarkable, sensitive and beautiful > soul - and a brilliant intuitive older brother to his much younger siblings > (he was at both their births). All who see him interact with them are in awe > (even us too!). > Outside of our home - our son is the school prefect, house captain and is > currently in the 'OC' class (for gifted and talented children). He is also > an EXTREMELY gifted sportsman - speedily making his way up the ladder to > serious cricketing success (he is currently trialing for Emerging Blues > cricket at the SCG!!!)... PLUS representing his school, the Blue Mountains > and the Sydney West region in numerous other sports..... > He is a passionate animal libber - and has been a vegetarian for the past > couple of years.. > At the same time - he is a VERY innocent and sheltered (nearly-) 12 yr old. > Although is is well and truly at the beginning of adolesence... he does not > have the thought processes, attitude or 'street-wiseness' (is there such a > word??!!) that many boys of around his age in school do..... (swearing, > sex-talk, bullying, macho, bravado etc etc) > My point here, is not to brag about my eldest son (although I will quite > happily!)....I guess what I am trying to say - is that - although you would > not expect a child of that age to be co-sleeping... it's also not wierd or > freaky - and hasn't produced a wierd/nerdy/emotionally scarred child.... > Alot of my eldest son's make-up is his own beautiful personality... yet I > feel his well-roundedness has much to do with our parenting - providing him > with a nurturing, loving and accepting environment.... where he sees his Dad > do the dishes, cook dinner, wash nappies, hang the clothes on the line... > bath the younger babies... wrestle with him...(each and every night!) AND > sometimes cuddle his mother every now and then, too! > I feel confidant that he will bring all of these things to father his own > children in a positive, nurturing and uninhibited way (that he already shows > with his two younger brothers) and feel that he will be a beautiful partner, > too.... > I see his being in our room (er.. MY room at the moment!) as very > numbered..... as I said, he has hit adolesence....and I have noticed subtle > changes.... ie. he often will shower with our 2 1/2 yr old (his shadow) - > and have noticed him casually covering his genitals with one hand... whereas > only a couple of months ago, he wasn't.... > and with these changes... I will go with the flow and his cues.... as I have > always done... ever since he was my chubby first-born babe in my arms.... > kindest regards, > Nicole > > ps. the whole of his year were away on camp last week for the entire week. > Prior to camp - I overheard a couple of parents expressing their concerns > (to the school teacher) about their children coping at night-time without > them.... one parent said that her daughter had problems getting to sleep... > and woke in the night - needing her mother to get her back to sleep......... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pinky McKay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 11:46 AM > Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] husbands on co-sleeping > > > > Hi Silvia, > > Re harmful effects of co-sleeping -there are some comprehensive articles > in > > my links page -I have a heading Co sleeping links. ( > www.pinky-mychild.com ) > > One of these is an entire issue of Mothering Magazine devoted to research > on > > cosleeping by various experts (including James MCKenna) . The studies of > > long term benefits are interesting and positive (male college students who > > co-slept when babies had better sex lives!!). > > > > This may have been a fairly typical but innocent comment from a 9 year old > > who actually saw what was happening with his parents. Our kids were not in > > our bed at that age except if they wandered in to cuddle the baby or have > a > > morning cuddle and chat at weekends, and I dont know of anyone having this > > experience (perhaps because they would be tooo embarrassed to say so??) - > > most kids simply think parents are cuddling so as littlies often do ask > can > > they cuddle too. > > > > Once when our youngest was just 5 , he was looking through story books > > beside our bed and came across a pair of knickers among the rubble. He > > exclaimed - Girls knickers!! Some one has been having sex in this bed! I > > thought ,oh my goodness, my baby has lost his innocence -(hes the bonus > baby > > and we had teenagers then too) but as I casually said -"Sex - what's > that?" > > he said "Oh, mum , you know - when you cuddle for a very long time with > your > > clothes off." > > > > Maybe we should clarify what kids really mean - perhaps their intentions > > really are quite innocent and we are the ones reading deviance into what > > they say and consequently making them feel abnormal / "dirty" by our > > reactions - if they were truly deviant do you think they would actually > say > > these things out loud? > > > > I must say, I have found families with various levels of comfort about > older > > children sharing sleep etc with them, nudity etc. My own kids went happily > > off to their own beds between 3 and 5 (all different needs and > > personalities) and all developed a natural need for privacy as they > > approached adolescence - all at different ages again (Sarah, my > photographer > > daugheter has a beautiful photo of Larissa my other daughter) nude on a > > beach at 5 am in winter in Melbourne - Sarah had apparently thought it > would > > be great to do in the afternoon on a sunny day, but Larissa was more > > comfortable with a deserted beach even tho it was freezing!) . A woman I > > knew quite well had a big house with a double shower and her boys used to > > shower with her -I remembering being quite shocked that her 13 year old > > would shower with her -mine certainly wouldnt have and I wouldnt have felt > > comfortable with this. I am not sure whether this is a bit odd or whether > my > > boundaries are much stronger. My 12 year old certainly shuts his bedroom > > and the bathroom door these days. > > > > Pinky > > > > Pinky > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Sylvia Boutsalis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 10:58 AM > > Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] husbands on co-sleeping > > > > > > > I read some very interesting thoughts, and thankyou for sharing them > > > with me. I may just do an activity about co-sleeping and take some > > > comments from your messages if you give me permission. > > > I also came from home with no nudity and anything sexual was taboo. We > > > as parents though are totally different too. We bathe all our children > > > together (1 girl, 2 boys) and everytime I come out of the shower there > > > is always a couple of little hands wanting to pull my nipples! My > > > husband is very involved with the upbringing of our children. Sometimes > > > I feel he loves them more than I do (that's the exhaustion speaking!) > > > It is as you say, back then all children slept with their parents and > > > then slowly society has changed it to each child has a room and > > > therefore co-sleeping has become taboo along with breastfeeding past 1 > > > year and tandem breastfeeding. > > > > > > I still have concerns because my young cousin (9 at the time) was asking > > > his mother if he could 'stick his thing in her like daddy does' while > > > co-sleeping because my uncle thought he was asleep while they were > > > having sex. This child is now seeing a therapist. But after reading > > > all these responses of well adjusted adults who co-slept, is this > > > instance with my cousin rare? > > > > > > > > > Sylvia > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nicole > > > Christensen > > > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2004 11:57 PM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: [ozmidwifery] husbands on co-sleeping > > > > > > > > > Hi Sylvia -as you were curious about the effects of co-sleeping on > > > husbands....thought I might tell you of mine... My husband was brought > > > up in a very traditional household - no nudity, no going near parent's > > > bed etc etc. yet he has fathered the complete anti-of his father (thank > > > goodness!!!) We shower and bath with our children, all doors are left > > > open (including toilet)... and he lavishes our boys with lots of kisses, > > > love and his time. We are self-confessed dags - our little family - we > > > do absolutely EVERYTHING together... grocery shopping, collecting our > > > eldest son from school, watching him play sport, training, walks etc > > > etc We also have no real family support - so my husband and I never > > > have time alone - and whenever we go out - it is always with our boys. I > > > breastfeed my children until they are ready to self-wean (still going > > > strong tandem feeding my 2 1/2 yr old and 7 mth old)...with FULL support > > > of my husband ... so, co- sleeping has been pretty much an unsaid > > > natural extension of our parenting.... (ie doing everything together). > > > My husband has NEVER complained about sharing our bed with our children > > > (or even having to sleep in another room and bed when he gets booted > > > out... which is OFTEN) . We have a single bed pushed up to our queen > > > bed. Most nights our nearly 12 yr old sleeps in the single bed (the > > > other nights my husband gets a turn...) and I sleep in the middle of the > > > queen bed with my baby on one side and our 2 yr old on the other. I love > > > having my children sleep with me. having all 3 boys with me, safe and > > > cosy and snuggly all night long. Then there's the giggles and fun when > > > they all awake together - particularly with my 12 yr old and 2 yr old > > > who are extremely close. When my husband is in there too - he loves this > > > also! My husband and I are very in-love and very close... yet we don't > > > have the intimacy that we once had before I was completely exhausted and > > > chronically sleep deprived. My husband sees how exhausted I am... and he > > > is tired too... as our very demanding and non-sleeping 2 1/2 yr old > > > finally drops at 11 pm each night - and this is when we are doing the > > > dishes, washing nappies etc etc. Our sex life is a dire contrast to > > > pre-children... I was the sex goddess... and now I am a PLANT!!! I know > > > he would like to have sex every now and then (and we don't do it in the > > > bedroom, either!) - and will sometimes be not so subtle in hinting... > > > but at the same time -he sees how exhausted I am, and feels sorry for me > > > - so would never push it with me. he also misses cuddling me in bed - > > > but knows that this time of our children being so young, needy and > > > dependant is too short-lived - so accepts that this is how it is NOW but > > > will not always be this way..... I think the only thing that makes my > > > husband frustrated - is the fact that our toddler goes to bed so late - > > > and then we do some housework... which by then, it is around midnight. > > > He would LOVE to have some "me time" for himself to wind down... and > > > some time shared with me. This isn't possible with a wakeful night-owl 2 > > > 1/ yr old!!! Your comment "that is not what's supposed to happen" -ie > > > giving your children yourself over your husband during the night - is > > > interesting. I agree that it is important to give time to your husband > > > and your marriage... but it is not always realistic. If our children > > > want me/us in the night - it is and has never been an issue... or even > > > discussed for that matter.. as it has always been an unspoken natural > > > thing foir us to do... and we enjoy being with them in bed at night as > > > much as the children love being with us too... kind regards, Nicole > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Sylvia Boutsalis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 10:10 AM > > > Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] sleep stuff > > > > > > > > > > I don't mean to be judgmental in relation to co-sleeping but I am > > > > curious about what happens to the couples relationship? I am not a > > > > selfish person but I do regard my bed time to be something shared with > > > > > > > my husband alone. For me having a child in bed turns my attention > > > > away from my partner and intimacy and focuses on my child. That is > > > > not what is supposed to happen. Children take up so much time that > > > > it's important to be able to find time to nurture our own relationship > > > > > > > with our partner, and most of that time is usually at night when the > > > > children go to bed and when we go to bed. Children are an extension > > > > of us, not a replacement of our affections. > > > > > > > > I would be interested to know how the men in your lives are coping > > > > with this arrangement. Are they really into it or have they just > > > > accepted it? > > > > > > > > Sylvia > > > > Mum to Ellie 10, Chris 6 and Evan 4 (who all breastfed, but never > > > > co-slept) > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wayne and > > > > Cas > > > > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2004 8:48 AM > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: [ozmidwifery] sleep stuff > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, we tried the side car thing last night and he went down without > > > > any hassles at 8.30, then woke up at 10pm so I fed him and gently > > > > rolled him over to the cot and he didn't stir until 5am this morning. > > > > So far so good. It was the best night's sleep I've had in weeks. > > > > Thanks for all of your suggestions. > > > > > > > > I wanted to add though that sleeping with children and babies is not > > > > right for everyone. I don't actually know too many adults or children > > > > that seem affected by the fact their parents made them sleep in a cot > > > > when they were babies. There is a lot more to parenting than whether > > > > you co-sleep or not. Ie. If you don't love your kids unconditionally, > > > > no amount of co-sleeping is going to give the added security a child > > > > needs. I think we are all individuals and so are our children and we > > > > just need to work out what best suits them. When Liam was the same age > > > > > > > as Daniel he was very hands off, didn't want hugs, didn't want the > > > > breast a lot and it hurt me at the time but it was what he needed. > > > > Daniel is a totally different baby. > > > > > > > > I will let you know if our good fortune last night continues. > > > > > > > > Cheers Cas. > > > > > > > > Cas, Wayne, Liam and Daniel McCullough > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > www.casmccullough.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. > > > > Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. > > > > Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe. > > > > > > > -- > > > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. > > > Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. > > > Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe. > > > > -- > > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. > > Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe. > > > -- > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. > Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. 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