Edwina, List,
a qualisign neither, as general, is classified for, nor does it involve 3ns. But classification and involution are not the only matters of a sign having to do with 3ns. A sign always is combined with an interpretant. However, I dont know, if everybody agrees, that the interpretant is the 3ns of the sign triad. I remember, that somebody said, "first, second, third" were just ordinal numbers (of semiosis, of the S,O,I- triad), not at all having to do with the categories. Dear reader, if you think so too, don´t read on. Now, what is the interpretant of a novel sign? The emotional interpretant is the reason for the sign to be uttered. Imagine a jungle, with the sudden sound "Ouooaiiih" appearing. A biologist is walking through the jungle, hearing it. She thinks: I don´t know any animal, producing such a sound, but it should mean something". Being a scientist, she does not suppose, just anticipates the meaning "something". In fact, it was two tree-branches rubbing at each other due to wind. This is the emotional interpretant (1ns of 3ns). The energetic interpretant is "This should mean something", and the so-far effectual interpretant is "something". This example I gave to corrobate my plea, that all elements of the triad and of the hexad always appear togerther. Now there also is a child walking in the jungle, hearing the sound, It thinks: This must be the legendary and harmful chupacabra, I am afraid now". This energetic interpretant is not involved in the effectual, let alone, final interpretant. Also, with the scientist, the tree-branches rubbing at each other is not involved in her interpretation of the sound. So the three interpretants are not a trichotomy. They are a combination, always appearing together, being the interpretant.
Best, Helmut
7. November 2025 um 02:57
"Edwina Taborsky" <[email protected]>
wrote:JAS wrote:
even a "first-time" sign token is an instance of a sign type because its (definitely significant) form is capable of repetition in subsequent sign tokens, and the same is true of natural signs. In fact, anything that we can describe using words, which as sign tokens are always instances of sign types, must likewise be either a general itself or an instantiation of a general. Only an entirely unique sign token would not be an instance of a sign type--something brute, unrepeatable, and indescribable; pure 2ns, with no 3ns whatsoever, which of course is impossible for anything involved in semiosis.
I find this a strange outline, because, it is asserting that all triads/signs include 3ns or general habits, ie,enabling reproduction of that type. But I note that of Peirce’s ten sign classes within semeiosis, , four have no 3ns involved: the Qualisign, the Iconic Sinsign, the Rhematic Indexical Sinsign, and the Dicent Sinsign. Aren’t these ‘involved in semeiosis’?
Furthermore, using Robert Marty’s laltice model it can be shown tha there is an ‘accretive path’ from the sign lacking 3ns, to the inclusion of 3ns, suggesting that the matter/mind of the world is capable of knowledge acquisition and the generation of entirely new forms of matter/mind, where as Marty points out, one sees a ‘process of growth or enlargement by a gradual categorical build up”..Of course this is also briefly outlined by Peirce in 1.413- the emergence of the universe,
JAS’s outline, if I understand him correctly, rejects any such evolutionary buildup and instead, posits an a priori Habit/3ns already existent in any novel emergent Sign.Where did this general law come from? Is there some kind of a priori bank filled with Platonic Forms waiting to be called upon? Or-Is it purely a mutant randomness with no interaction with its environmental realities?
Or is the answer to the emergence of new signs a mater of semiosic informational dynamics, with a novel instance emerging in interaction with its environment, and when enough of these reach a critical threshold of commonality - 3ns becomes operative within their format.
These are two very different approaches to the question of How Does Novelty Emerge within Semiosis.
Edwina
On Nov 6, 2025, at 8:10 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt <[email protected]> wrote:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _Gary R., List:I changed the subject line to reflect the narrower focus of this discussion.I agree with you and those other scholars that even a "first-time" sign token is an instance of a sign type because its (definitely significant) form is capable of repetition in subsequent sign tokens, and the same is true of natural signs. In fact, anything that we can describe using words, which as sign tokens are always instances of sign types, must likewise be either a general itself or an instantiation of a general. Only an entirely unique sign token would not be an instance of a sign type--something brute, unrepeatable, and indescribable; pure 2ns, with no 3ns whatsoever, which of course is impossible for anything involved in semiosis.In a communicational context, there can be a disconnect between the intention of the utterer, which pertains to the object of the sign, and the understanding of the interpreter, which pertains to its interpretant. Put simply, the utterer can be unsuccessful in conveying his/her intention in the sign's immediate interpretant, resulting in an unexpected dynamical interpretant; everyone has experienced this. In your example, the sender wanted to utter an instance of the sign whose type in English is "hide," but the receiver interpreted it as an instance of the sign whose type in English is "run." Did the receiver misinterpret, or did the sender misspeak (using his/her hands)?Who can say, since there was no pre-established definition of that particular gesture, corresponding to its immediate interpretant? Although like every sign token, it was an instance of a sign type, that type had not yet been associated by both parties with any sign in itself, such that it was capable of being translated into "hide," "run," or some other English word. The sender presumably thought something equivalent to "hide," which he/she translated into a certain hand signal; but when the interpreter saw it, he/she instead thought something equivalent to "run."I do not know how to answer your concluding question, "how wide should we consider 'type' and 'law' to be in Peirce's semiotic?" What does "wide" mean in this context? By contrast, what would "narrow" mean?Regards,Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USAStructural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian
On Wed, Nov 5, 2025 at 8:14 PM Gary Richmond <[email protected]> wrote:Jon, List,
Is it possible that any of these -- a unique (first time) hand signal, or a lightning flash, or a hiccup -- is an example of a token that is not an instance of a type?
Some Peirce scholars, including Joe Ransdell (but also Short, Liszka, and Parker), wondered about 'first-time' or 'natural' signs that at "first blush" (as Joe would say) look type-less. But, as I recall, these scholars, each and all, concluded that such (e.g., 'natural signs') function under some generality: a natural law, a habit, or an 'interpretive generalization', even if that interpretation were formed on the spot (and even, say, if that first time unique hand signal were misinterpreted to mean 'run' when the signaler meant 'hide'.)
So my own answer to the question would be that there really isn't a sign-token that isn’t, in some way, an instance of a type.
But then another question arises: how wide should we consider 'type' and 'law' to be in Peirce's semiotic?
Best,
Gary R
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