Ben- agreed. The wave has to have a function, so to speak. I think that it's to 
offer choice within the actual world. The classical idea of matter is that 
there is no choice; every that 'is', already 'is' so to speak; it's just that 
our inadequate senses can't observe it, but, by gosh, it's there. 

But the notion of potentiality or probability (yes, yes, I know they aren't the 
same) introduces the capacity for novelty. Total novelty, constrained of course 
by what is already actual.  I think the wave function operates not as many 
large numbers (for that's post wave function) but as a 'vast exploratory 
networking informational search engine' of what is actually 'out there' in the 
local time and space; it comes up with several probable solutions to the 
existential realities in that local time and space. All of them would function. 
Which one becomes actualized - is chance. And this new actualization in its 
turn requires adaptation from other actualities in that local time and space. 
Within the biological realm - I think this 'informational sensing' plays a 
vital role in the development of diversity and novelty and constant adaptation. 
 [That's also why I don't think we should deplore extinction; nature abhors a 
vacuum and is always developing new morphologies.]

I think this production of novelty is almost non-existent in the 
physico-chemical realm for the simple reason that 'matter' can't afford such 
dynamism in the most basic realm. Imagine what our planet would be like if its 
most basic components, eg, hydrogen, oxygen, would no longer replicate as such 
but would simply cease to exist and some other molecule would emerge.  Science 
fiction TV drama?

Agreed;  destiny or necessity, or the laws of Thirdness, would emerge within 
large numbers whose very actualization would inhibit the power of smaller 
'niche' populations. 

Edwina
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Benjamin Udell 
  To: [email protected] ; [email protected] 
  Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2014 12:16 PM
  Subject: [biosemiotics:7414] Re: Natural Propositions


  Edwina, Koichiro, lists,

  What you say makes sense, Edwina. The wave function would seem not quite so 
meaningful if there were no definite quantitative outcomes. The wave function 
gives probabilities for definite outcomes (that's part of the point of 
unitarity, the probabilities of alternate definite outcomes sum to unity) at a 
given stage of its time evolution.  I haven't read anything on quantum 
indeterminacy in biology that was E-Z enough for me to follow, but I've seen 
some claims at least.

  On a side note, it's occurred to me that Peirce's idea of absolute chance may 
be not too much in conflict with the idea of the deterministic time evolution 
of the wave function in the following sense. Peirce allows (I forget what 
terminology he used) for destiny, or necessity in the sense of destiny, to 
arise from probabilities in large numbers of things, a la the Law of Large 
Numbers. Now, the probabilities given by the wave function, despite its 
'apriorism' (as I've sometimes seen it called), reflect what would be the 
result of indefinitely many trials - a very large number indeed. That the wave 
function, for its part, as a potentiality, would evolve deterministically in 
time, then, could make sense even in terms of Peirce's tychism (absolute 
chance). 

  Best, Ben 

  On 11/9/2014 11:19 AM, Edwina Taborsky wrote:

    Ben, you wrote:

    "the 'realist' assumption that particles have determinate quantitative 
values in all measurable respects prior to a given act of measurement. I tend 
to chalk such phenomena up as a potential validation of Peirce's realism about 
modalities (such as possibility) and absolute chance, although I don't 
understand the physics well enough to make a serious argument. A related 
question is, is Peirce's idea of absolute chance consistent with the idea of 
the deterministic continuous time evolution of the wave function (from which 
probabilities are calculated)? I don't know. "

    The 'realist' assumption - understanding realism as the existence of 
general laws  - would, to my understanding of semiosis, suggest that the 
organization of matter as it moves from potentiality  (the wave function)  to 
actuality of morphological existence mean that within these laws , matter will 
organize in 'determinate quantiative values'. But which quantitative 
organizational mode takes precedence can be an issue of 'absolute chance'. 

    I think in the physico-chemical realm, there are limited chance 
possibilities - after all, since this realm is the basis of life, a chaotic 
physico-chemical realm would be disastrous. But in the biological realm, chance 
emerges within potentiality (wave function) as a vital, if not key agent, in 
the ability to diversify, network and expand the ability of organized matter to 
prevent energy dissipation.


    Edwina

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Benjamin Udell
      To: [email protected] ; [email protected] 
      Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2014 10:45 AM
      Subject: [PEIRCE-L] Re: [biosemiotics:7407] Re: Natural Propositions

      Koihiro, lists,

      With this one I would get more out of my depth than usual. It gets into 
the question known as that of Bertlmann's socks, about which I read many years 
ago and was left shaking my head. Anyway, from what little I understand, the 
experimentally shown violation of Bell's inequalities conflicts with (classical 
physical) local _realism _, not with locality by itself without the 'realist' 
assumption that particles have determinate quantitative values in all 
measurable respects prior to a given act of measurement. I tend to chalk such 
phenomena up as a potential validation of Peirce's realism about modalities 
(such as possibility) and absolute chance, although I don't understand the 
physics well enough to make a serious argument. A related question is, is 
Peirce's idea of absolute chance consistent with the idea of the deterministic 
continuous time evolution of the wave function (from which probabilities are 
calculated)? I don't know. 


      Best, Ben

      On 11/8/2014 7:24 PM, Koichiro Matsuno wrote:

        At 1:40 AM 11/09/2014, Benjamin Udell wrote: 

        In particular, Peirce regards individual existence as a matter not 
merely of location or proximity in space and time, but of reaction, resistance, 
interaction, like so many natural measurements. This is congenial to the QM 
view of things as becoming determinate through interaction with the 
environment, the 'observer', the 'measurer', etc.

           In a related context, John Bell (1964) said:

        "In a theory in which parameters are added to quantum mechanics to 
determine the results of individual measurements, without changing the 
statistical predictions, there must be a mechanism whereby the setting of the 
one measuring device can influence the reading of another instrument, however 
remote."

           The violation of Bell’s inequality in QM reveals the failure of 
Einstein locality or local realism strictly on the experimental ground. I am 
not well acquainted with how Peirce or Peirceans would have responded to this 
observation. 

          Koichuro
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