Edwina, Gary, Robert, List, I'm sure that we're all familiar with Peirce's note about the ethics of terminology. But it's not clear whether its influence was good, bad, or indifferent. The position he recommended was the Linnaean conventions for naming biological species. But very few things in the world are so rigidly classifiable. And those that are have been classified by international conventions: the integers, the chemical elements, and the chemical compounds.
And if you look at Peirce's own practice, he replaced 'phenomenology' with 'phaneroscopy' just a couple of years later. I believe that he was justified in coining the new term 'phaneroscopy', but there is enough overlap that he could have continued to use 'phenomenology'. As for the choice of 'mark' vs 'tone', I believe that 'tone' was a poor choice, and his vacillation in 1908 indicates that he had some misgivings. That vacillation nullifies any obligation to continue his practice. Another poor choice on Peirce's part was to make 'logic' a synonym for 'logic as semeiotic'. Until 1902, he used 'logic' as a synonym for the symbolic logic of Boole and his followers (of which he was one). Instead, he chose the usage for the title of books, such as Whateley's. I believe that Peirce made a serious mistake, and Fisch (in his 1986 book) deliberately chose the term 'semeiotic' as the abbreviation for 'logic as semeiotic'. In my recent article on phaneroscopy, I adopted Fisch's recommendation. And by the way, my citation of Fisch is NOT an appeal to authority. It is the practice of taking the advice of an expert in a field for choosing terminology for that field. I recommend that practice. John ---------------------------------------- From: "Edwina Taborsky" <edwina.tabor...@gmail.com> Gary R, List 1] Yes - I am aware of Peirce’s insistence on accurate terminology. I am also aware of the many different terms he used for the same thing. I am also aware of the many different terms that other scholars use to refer to the same situations as Peirce describes. My point is that we cannot isolate scholars and research from each other by insisting that use only the terms that specific scholar used. We should, rather, understand that these different scholars were trying to examine the same situations - and should be open to using these different terms for the SAME situation. 2] Yes - I am indeed suggesting that the focus on terminology - and the insistence that one can use only Peirce’s terminology - because, for some reason, the meaning of Peirce’s terms cannot be considered as similar to the meanings yet with different terms used by others - - is a reduction into nominalism. And by nominalism - I mean a focus rejecting commonality - aka universals, such that one rejects the fact that, despite the different terms, there can be a commonality of existence….This can also be known as conceptualism. Of course - different terminology can mean different meanings….but that’s not my point, is it? 3] You yourself referred to me as ‘pseudo-Peircean. As well as ‘dogmatic, idiosyncratic- and your claim that my work ‘has ‘long been discredited’. 4] A ‘purist’ in my view is someone who is unwilling to acknowledge that the work of some scholar can be similar in its analysis to the work of another scholar - but - that the terms used are different. ..and above all - it is perfectly acceptable to , for example, examine the work of Peirce using the terms used by other scholars. 5] I’m not sure what your point is with your outline that JAS is an ‘accomplished andn distinguished structural engineer’ - and has given conference papers and published papers on Peirce. The same accolades can be made about most others on this List - and, apart from it being an example of the logical fallacy of 'appeal to authority’ to which you have made reference, - such doesn’t make his comments any more valid than those of other people on the list. Edwina On Apr 12, 2024, at 11:21 PM, Gary Richmond <gary.richm...@gmail.com> wrote: Edwina, List, This is in response to your message to the List today as well as your addendum to that message. For now I mainly have just a few questions: You are no doubt aware of Peirce's insistence on a rigorous ethics of terminology. Are you suggesting that he is incorrect in his insistence that terminology matters, and can matter significantly -- that is, that it can constitute a difference which makes a difference? If you disagree (which you appear to), why? And are you suggesting that scholars and scientists who may occasionally focus on terminology -- recently, on the List, John Sowa, Jon Alan Schmidt, and myself -- are slipping into nominalism? I myself cannot see how a rigorous insistence on the importance of terminology has anything to do with nominalism. Please explain how it does. And please also include your definition of nominalism. And do you disagree that using different terminology can correlate with having different concepts? Further, if my memory isn't too diminished, I don't recall anyone on the List referring to you as a "pseudo-Peircean," something which would indeed constitute unacceptable 'name calling' on Peirce-L. However, today you suggested that some on this list are "Purists" which, had that expression been directed at particular List participants would indeed constitute a mild kind of 'name calling' depending on the context. However, I have no idea what you mean by alleging that some here are 'purists' -- please explain what you mean by this. It seems to be that there are many rooms in the houses of Peircean semeiotic, of Peircean pragmaticism -- more generally, of semiotic and pragmatism -- and that they are not mutually exclusive, that a scholar/scientist can be interested both in theory and practice (and although Peirce once denied it, he himself accomplished much in both theory and practice). So it would be quite helpful if you would clarify your comments today. And I will add, although he might prefer that I not, that Jon Alan Schmidt, not infrequently accused by some here as being a sort of Peircean theoretical 'purist' simply because, as he wrote yesterday, his "own priority is accurately understanding, helpfully explaining, and fruitfully building on Peirce's views by carefully studying and adhering to his words," is an accomplished and distinguished structural engineer, often invited to speak at conventions and other gatherings because of his expertise. And among the 44 papers of his cited on Google Scholar one will find, along with the specifically Peircean ones, some papers in which Peircean thought is applied in various ways, including engineering reasoning and ethics. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=EfQhY7cAAAAJ&hl=en Best, Gary On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 10:38 AM Edwina Taborsky <edwina.tabor...@gmail.com> wrote: List As an addendum - I wonder if this tortured focus on ‘ which term is the correct one’ has shades of nominalism in it…ie, that focus on the particular, the individual, [ ie the exact term] and an difference to ‘what is real’. [ ie the meaning and function]. Edwina On Apr 12, 2024, at 9:32 AM, Edwina Taborsky <edwina.tabor...@gmail.com> wrote: Robert- I agree with you about examining how the ‘relations of embodiment’ of the triadic sign actually function - but this recent debate - and it’s a debate not a discussion’[ i.e., it’s focused on Who Wins ]- rejects a more basic requirement of analysis; namely - what is the operative function of the triad which is using those terms; it is instead focused solely on ‘which term to use’ - and the focus is on ‘purity vs functionality’. . Therefore , as you point out, we get a focus on ‘which word did Peirce prefer’ with the result as you point out that “imaginary distinctions are often drawn between beliefs which differ only in their mode of expression - the wrangling which ensues is real enough, however” 5.398…But, equally according to Peirce - these are ‘false distinctions’…. Is it so impossible to state that one prefers the use of x-term [ which Peirce used] to Y-term [ which Peirce used] because, according to your analysis, it better explains the operative function of what is semiotically taking place - without the heavens opening up with a downpour of rejection??? I recall the equal horror of some members of this list when I use the terms ‘input’ and ‘output’ to refer to the incoming data from the Dynamic object and the resultant output Interpretant meaning of the semiosic mediation….[Peirce never used those words!! You’re a pseudo-Peircean; you are…” . But without such modernization and explanation of the function of semiosis, and the insistence by ’The Purists’ on using only Peircean terms - and above all, his ‘favourite terms’ - , we will never be able to move the real analytic power of Peircean semiosis into the modern world. And that - - is where I believe the focus should be. Edwina On Apr 12, 2024, at 6:29 AM, robert marty <robert.mart...@gmail.com> wrote: List,I contribute to the debate with this note that I posted on Academia.edu a few years ago ... at my peril ... I have not yet looked at tone/mark, but the same methodology should make it possible to conclude that each of the six types of token involves a tone/mark of a particular kind. https://www.academia.edu/61335079/Note_on_Signs_Types_and_Tokens Regards, Robert Marty Honorary Professor ; PhD Mathematics ; PhD Philosophy fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Marty https://martyrobert.academia.edu/ Le ven. 12 avr. 2024 à 05:04, Jon Alan Schmidt <jonalanschm...@gmail.com> a écrit : John, List: JFS: As words, there is no logical difference between the words 'mark' and 'tone' as a term for a possible mark. Again, the key difference is between Peirce's definition of "mark" in Baldwin's dictionary and his definition of "tone"--as well as "tuone," "tinge," and "potisign"--in various other places. JFS: But some words, such as potisign are rather unusual and may even be considered ugly. They are certainly not memorable. Peirce famously preferred an ugly word for his version of pragmatism so that it would be "safe from kidnappers." If being memorable is a criterion, then "tone" is superior to "mark" due to its alliteration with "token" and "type"; as Gary said, someone suggested to him "that the three all starting with the letter 't' perhaps constituted a kind of mnemonic device." JFS: Jon made the claim that Peirce used the word 'tone' more often, mainly in obscure MSS. That is not a ringing endorsement. It is not a mere claim that I made, it is an indisputable fact--"tone" is the only word that Peirce used in multiple places and at multiple times between 1906 and 1908 for the possible counterpart of existent "token" and necessitant "type." It is also the only one that was published during his lifetime (CP 4.537, 1906)--the others appear in Logic Notebook entries and the December 1908 letters to Lady Welby, with "mark" and "potisign" found solely in the latter, although she subsequently endorsed "tone." As someone once said, "She had a solid intuitive way of explaining principles that he tended to explain in ways that were more abstract and difficult to understand. Her influence enabled him to find simpler and more convincing explanations for his abstract ideas" (https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/arc/peirce-l/2024-02/msg00096.html). JFS: That is not a scientific survey, but I could not find a single non-Peircean scholar who would even consider the word 'tone'. If anybody else has any further evidence (or just a personal preference) one way or the other, please let us know. Gary already provided anecdotal evidence to the contrary and expressed his personal preference for "tone." As always, my own priority is accurately understanding, helpfully explaining, and fruitfully building on Peirce's views by carefully studying and adhering to his words. Regards, Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt
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