As I mentioned in an earlier email, the phonograph I want to work on is from 1915 so the finish is probably shelac. Therefore I should be using denatured alcohol to remove or amalgamate it. Does this need a retarding agent tike you mentioned for the lacquer thinner? If so, what should I used? Thanks. BTW I loved your suggestion for applying veneer patches. I've been doing this type of work for some tine and had never heard of that technique. I will try it on my nest project that calls for veneer repair. RMV ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug" <[email protected]> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain colors
> Indeed, you do your cabinet work in at least a somewhat ventilated place. > More importantly, you'd use retarded lacquer thinner in a VERY well > ventilated place. That's why you can do lots of things in the summer, and > not so much in the winter (at least, here in Michigan). > > And as far as inhaling the alcohol vapors, I'd recommend common sense for > that to anyone. That means, not getting to the spout in the can and > inhaling > heavily. Otherwise, just a little sniff of the alky won't hurt you as > you're > working the finish. Just don't drink the stuff, either. > > And above all, never believe what the EPA claims! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron L'Herault" <[email protected]> > To: "'Antique Phonograph List'" <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 9:56 PM > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain colors > > >> The fumes of the shellac thinner? 8-) >> >> Ron L >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >> On >> Behalf Of Doug >> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 6:44 PM >> To: Antique Phonograph List >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain colors >> >> How in blazes did my message ever get garbaged up like THAT? >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Doug" <[email protected]> >> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 5:55 PM >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain colors >> >> >>> That' riht. Once saned down, the edge of the repir will be vey difficult >>> to >>> dicern. >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ron L'Herault" <[email protected]> >>> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 4:23 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>> colors >>> >>> >>>> And, if I am understanding the technique correctly, this is why you >>>> sand >>>> the >>>> original to a feather edge. There is no abrupt change in level and >>>> the >>>> patch can be then sanded to a feather edge to blend it in, right? >>>> >>>> Ron L >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> [mailto:[email protected]]on Behalf Of Doug >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 3:45 PM >>>> To: Antique Phonograph List >>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>> colors >>>> >>>> >>>> Not rerally thin stuff. You'll want to use veneer pieces at least as >>>> thick >>>> as the original . When you clamp it down, it will sink into the little >>>> well >>>> in the existing veneer. That's why you use a soft rubber piece to push >>>> it >>>> into place when it's glued and clamped. >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Robert Wright" <[email protected]> >>>> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 3:10 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>> colors >>>> >>>> >>>>> Sage advice from an abominable wretch! I love radios too, though I >>>>> don't >>>>> have any anymore. My first was a Silvertone (I know, I know) >>>>> AM/78rpm/wire >>>>> recorder (I said I know!) that I intended to completely re-veneer with >>>>> a >>>>> very pronounced grain of some kind... maybe green or purple >>>>> varnish... >>>>> *ahem*. Hey, I was young and needed the money. If it hadn't been >>>>> missing >>>>> a >>>>> couple of teeth on the gear that undulated the wire recorder head, I >>>>> probably would've (egads) finished the thing. I wish now I would >>>>> have -- >>>>> with you guys and gals, it would've been worth a good laugh or two. >>>>> And >>>>> you >>>>> KNOW I woulda put it up on eBay at some point. >>>>> >>>>> I did get about 5 pieces of it veneered, though, and Doug's patching >>>>> advice >>>>> would've come in handy. Hey Doug, is there any special trick to get >>>>> the >>>>> veneer soft enough to really fill the hole exactly, or do you just use >>>>> extremely thin veneer? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Robert >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Doug" <[email protected]> >>>>> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 1:41 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>>> colors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Let me insert another thought or two if I may. I'm one of those >>>>>> abominable >>>>>> wretches who collects and restores those things called Radios. But, >>>>>> the >>>>>> similarity comes with refinishing or repairing cabinets. >>>>>> >>>>>> Firstly, phonographs and radios both never were varnished. While >>>>>> there >>>>> might >>>>>> have been an isolated exception, shellac was used prior to 1925, and >>>>>> nitrocellulose lacquer after that year. There were some hangers-on >>>>>> after >>>>>> '25, of course. You can use Varnish, of course, but you're just >>>>>> making >>>>> life >>>>>> hard for yourself .I used to use varnish, until I learned the facts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, on the veneer grafting issue. If you want to patch in veneer, >>>>>> first, >>>>>> you'll want to get a piece that matches the surrounding grain that >>>>>> you >>>>>> are >>>>>> repairing. Then, with possibly 220 grade wet-dry sandpaper, >>>>>> feather-edge >>>>> the >>>>>> periphery of the hole in the cabinet veneer (the area that you're >>>>>> going >>>>> to >>>>>> repair). Then, take the patching piece, cut a little bigger than the >>>>>> area >>>>>> to be filled. and glue it over the hole, overlapping the edges. Clamp >>>>>> it, >>>>>> using a piece of soft rubber, so as to press the new patch into the >>>>>> "welled" area. Let it harden, at least overnight. After the glue is >>>>>> well >>>>>> set, block sand the patch to where it blends into the rest of the >>>>>> veneered >>>>>> surface. It works like a champ. I',ve done it a few times, and the >>>>>> repair >>>>> is >>>>>> all but imperceptable. I use Franklin's Titebond. but there are other >>>>>> good >>>>>> glues that do just as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "bob" <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:55 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>>>> colors >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Matching old finishes is pretty tricky. I find the best way to do >>>>>> > this >>>>> is >>>>>> > to use old veneer that is similar the original used on the piece. >>>>>> > I >>>>>> > try >>>>>> > to >>>>>> > save veneer from old pieces that are too far gone to restore. Most >>>>>> > old >>>>>> > veneer is finished with a stain varnish. It can be sanded off >>>>>> > easily. >>>>>> > The >>>>>> > key is not to remove the filler in the veneer.. I cut the section >>>>>> > to >>>>>> > be >>>>>> > patched with razor blade held at a 45 degree angle. Then I feather >>>>>> > sand >>>>>> > the >>>>>> > edge of the patch at a similar angle. If the veneer is too thick, >>>>>> > sand >>>>> it >>>>>> > form the back side with coarse sandpaper. When it fits properly >>>>>> > you >>>>>> > can >>>>>> > glue it in with white glue. You can then use any stain you like to >>>>> darken >>>>>> > the patch to match the piece if necessary. I usually use gel >>>>>> > stains >>>>> that >>>>>> > can be wiped on with a rag. After a few minutes you can wipe off >>>>>> > the >>>>>> > excess. The more you remove the lighter the color will be. When >>>>>> > your >>>>>> > satisfied with the color you can clear coat the area to achieve a >>>>>> > gloss >>>>>> > similar to the rest of the piece. The clear coat may darken the >>>>>> > color >>>>>> > a >>>>>> > little so it's best to make some sample pieces with both the stain >>>>>> > and >>>>>> > clear >>>>>> > coast finish on them before you finish the patches on your piece. >>>>>> > I >>>>> think >>>>>> > this technique will also work on a complete piece if you can find a >>>>> piece >>>>>> > of >>>>>> > old veneer large enough to cover a new piece of wood. >>>>>> > RMV >>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> > From: "Mark Albertson" <[email protected]> >>>>>> > To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> >>>>>> > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 11:30 PM >>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>>> colors >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> Ken: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I see that no one is jumping in here. So I will try to give you >>>>>> >> some >>>>>> >> pointers. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Each collector has his or her preference as to finishes. Some use >>>>>> >> original >>>>>> >> shellac (orange or clear). Others like oils, and yet others like >>>>> lacquer >>>>>> >> based products for big jobs such as cabinets or uprights. When it >>>>> comes >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> >> these choices, the size of the job matters as does what one is >>>>>> >> most >>>>>> >> comfortable with. The application also matters...ie: spray vs. >>>>>> >> rubbed >>>>> on >>>>>> >> vs. ragged on. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> So, choosing your refinishing medium is really a personal choice >>>>>> >> as >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> >> what >>>>>> >> your comfortable with and trying to accomplish. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> By the sounds of it, you have original finish machines that need a >>>>>> >> replacement board here or there and the question is how to "match" >>>>>> >> finishes...new to the old. Well, my experience suggests a great >>>>>> >> deal >>>>> of >>>>>> >> patience, a practice board, and a variety of lighting conditions. >>>>>> >> Patience >>>>>> >> is obvious as is a practice board identical to the wood you will >>>>>> >> be >>>>>> >> working >>>>>> >> with. Different lighting (natural vs. fluorescent, vs. >>>>>> >> incandescent) >>>>>> >> will >>>>>> >> cause colors to act differently, so it's important to go slow and >>>>>> >> check >>>>>> >> in >>>>>> >> different lights at different times using the medium of your >>>>>> >> choice. >>>>> But >>>>>> >> you need a product to mix with your shellac, minwax oil >>>>>> >> etc........read >>>>>> >> on. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I have found that the best product for dialing in and matching >>>>>> >> finishes >>>>>> >> is >>>>>> >> an alcohol based anyline dye specifically made by the Wood Finish >>>>> Supply >>>>>> >> Company. They sell a metalized extract concentrate dye mixed in >>>>>> >> MEK. >>>>>> >> The >>>>>> >> advantage of these dyes is that they dissolve in any base medium >>>>>> >> you >>>>> like >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> >> work in (shellac, oil, lacquer..etc.) and come in a host of colors >>>>>> >> for >>>>>> >> very >>>>>> >> precise color control (one drop at a time). In addition, the >>>>>> >> company >>>>>> >> provides baseline quantity combinations for most wood colors you >>>>>> >> will >>>>> be >>>>>> >> seeking. I would recommend starting with four colors...black, >>>>>> >> warm >>>>>> >> brown, >>>>>> >> yellow, and red.....each in 8oz bottles). From there you can nail >>>>>> >> down >>>>>> >> most >>>>>> >> all the colors we see in phonos except green oak. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Used alone, the dye will flash off and evaporate too fast for >>>>>> >> custom >>>>>> >> applications, so you need to use a baseline medium and then add >>>>>> >> dye >>>>> drops >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> >> that for your precision control of color. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Again, take a spoonful of patience before starting and have fun. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> You can check out Wood Finish Supply Co. at >>>>>> >> www.woodfinishsupply.com >>>>>> >> I >>>>>> >> would >>>>>> >> also suggest calling them. They are very helpful. Again, the >>>>>> >> product >>>>> is >>>>>> >> "Metalized Extract Concentrate Dye in MEK"....Get the four colors >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> >> start. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Best >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Mark Albertson >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> >> From: "Ken Danckaert" <[email protected]> >>>>>> >> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>> >> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 3:57 PM >>>>>> >> Subject: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>>>> >> colors >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>I can do almost anything with metal but I have a devil of a time >>>>>> >>>with >>>>>> >>> the cases. When you have to make a new wood part for a cabinet, >>>>>> >>> it >>>>>> >>> is >>>>>> >>> really difficult to color match close to the original. I would >>>>>> >>> really >>>>>> >>> like to see suggestions from you all on how you get wood parts to >>>>>> >>> match. Maybe someone knows a good source for stains or finishes >>>>>> >>> that >>>>>> >>> help you get a match. Is there a magical technique out there? >>>>>> >>> My >>>>> brute >>>>>> >>> strength approaches usually get me close but they are very time >>>>>> >>> consuming and chancy. Any suggestions? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Ken Danckaert >>>>>> >>> Severna Park, MD >>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>> Phono-L mailing list >>>>>> >>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Phono-L Archive >>>>>> >>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >> Phono-L mailing list >>>>>> >> [email protected] >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Phono-L Archive >>>>>> >> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> -- >>>>>> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>>>> >> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/248 - Release Date: >>>>> 2/1/2006 >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > Phono-L mailing list >>>>>> > [email protected] >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Phono-L Archive >>>>>> > http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Phono-L mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> Phono-L Archive >>>>>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Phono-L mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> Phono-L Archive >>>>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Phono-L mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> Phono-L Archive >>>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Phono-L mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> Phono-L Archive >>>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Phono-L mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> Phono-L Archive >>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Phono-L mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> Phono-L Archive >> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Phono-L mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> Phono-L Archive >> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ > > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > [email protected] > > Phono-L Archive > http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/248 - Release Date: 2/1/2006 >
