No need to retard alcohol. The shellac stays dissolved long enough to flow, stroke by stroke. The reason you need retarder with lacquer thinner is that the softened lacquer dries too quickly from one stroke of the brush to the next one. That stuff is fast! I've had cabinets where the blush in the lacquer is so dense that I've stroked on pure retarder. ----- Original Message ----- From: "bob" <[email protected]> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 5:26 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain colors
> As I mentioned in an earlier email, the phonograph I want to work on is > from > 1915 so the finish is probably shelac. Therefore I should be using > denatured alcohol to remove or amalgamate it. Does this need a retarding > agent tike you mentioned for the lacquer thinner? If so, what should I > used? Thanks. BTW I loved your suggestion for applying veneer patches. > I've been doing this type of work for some tine and had never heard of > that > technique. I will try it on my nest project that calls for veneer repair. > RMV > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug" <[email protected]> > To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 10:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain colors > > >> Indeed, you do your cabinet work in at least a somewhat ventilated place. >> More importantly, you'd use retarded lacquer thinner in a VERY well >> ventilated place. That's why you can do lots of things in the summer, and >> not so much in the winter (at least, here in Michigan). >> >> And as far as inhaling the alcohol vapors, I'd recommend common sense for >> that to anyone. That means, not getting to the spout in the can and >> inhaling >> heavily. Otherwise, just a little sniff of the alky won't hurt you as >> you're >> working the finish. Just don't drink the stuff, either. >> >> And above all, never believe what the EPA claims! >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ron L'Herault" <[email protected]> >> To: "'Antique Phonograph List'" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 9:56 PM >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain colors >> >> >>> The fumes of the shellac thinner? 8-) >>> >>> Ron L >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Doug >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 6:44 PM >>> To: Antique Phonograph List >>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>> colors >>> >>> How in blazes did my message ever get garbaged up like THAT? >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Doug" <[email protected]> >>> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 5:55 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>> colors >>> >>> >>>> That' riht. Once saned down, the edge of the repir will be vey >>>> difficult >>>> to >>>> dicern. >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ron L'Herault" <[email protected]> >>>> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 4:23 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>> colors >>>> >>>> >>>>> And, if I am understanding the technique correctly, this is why you >>>>> sand >>>>> the >>>>> original to a feather edge. There is no abrupt change in level and >>>>> the >>>>> patch can be then sanded to a feather edge to blend it in, right? >>>>> >>>>> Ron L >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]]on Behalf Of Doug >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 3:45 PM >>>>> To: Antique Phonograph List >>>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>>> colors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Not rerally thin stuff. You'll want to use veneer pieces at least as >>>>> thick >>>>> as the original . When you clamp it down, it will sink into the little >>>>> well >>>>> in the existing veneer. That's why you use a soft rubber piece to push >>>>> it >>>>> into place when it's glued and clamped. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Robert Wright" <[email protected]> >>>>> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 3:10 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>>> colors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Sage advice from an abominable wretch! I love radios too, though I >>>>>> don't >>>>>> have any anymore. My first was a Silvertone (I know, I know) >>>>>> AM/78rpm/wire >>>>>> recorder (I said I know!) that I intended to completely re-veneer >>>>>> with >>>>>> a >>>>>> very pronounced grain of some kind... maybe green or purple >>>>>> varnish... >>>>>> *ahem*. Hey, I was young and needed the money. If it hadn't been >>>>>> missing >>>>>> a >>>>>> couple of teeth on the gear that undulated the wire recorder head, I >>>>>> probably would've (egads) finished the thing. I wish now I would >>>>>> have -- >>>>>> with you guys and gals, it would've been worth a good laugh or two. >>>>>> And >>>>>> you >>>>>> KNOW I woulda put it up on eBay at some point. >>>>>> >>>>>> I did get about 5 pieces of it veneered, though, and Doug's patching >>>>>> advice >>>>>> would've come in handy. Hey Doug, is there any special trick to get >>>>>> the >>>>>> veneer soft enough to really fill the hole exactly, or do you just >>>>>> use >>>>>> extremely thin veneer? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Robert >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Doug" <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 1:41 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>>>> colors >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Let me insert another thought or two if I may. I'm one of those >>>>>>> abominable >>>>>>> wretches who collects and restores those things called Radios. But, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> similarity comes with refinishing or repairing cabinets. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Firstly, phonographs and radios both never were varnished. While >>>>>>> there >>>>>> might >>>>>>> have been an isolated exception, shellac was used prior to 1925, and >>>>>>> nitrocellulose lacquer after that year. There were some hangers-on >>>>>>> after >>>>>>> '25, of course. You can use Varnish, of course, but you're just >>>>>>> making >>>>>> life >>>>>>> hard for yourself .I used to use varnish, until I learned the facts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, on the veneer grafting issue. If you want to patch in veneer, >>>>>>> first, >>>>>>> you'll want to get a piece that matches the surrounding grain that >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> repairing. Then, with possibly 220 grade wet-dry sandpaper, >>>>>>> feather-edge >>>>>> the >>>>>>> periphery of the hole in the cabinet veneer (the area that you're >>>>>>> going >>>>>> to >>>>>>> repair). Then, take the patching piece, cut a little bigger than >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> area >>>>>>> to be filled. and glue it over the hole, overlapping the edges. >>>>>>> Clamp >>>>>>> it, >>>>>>> using a piece of soft rubber, so as to press the new patch into the >>>>>>> "welled" area. Let it harden, at least overnight. After the glue is >>>>>>> well >>>>>>> set, block sand the patch to where it blends into the rest of the >>>>>>> veneered >>>>>>> surface. It works like a champ. I',ve done it a few times, and the >>>>>>> repair >>>>>> is >>>>>>> all but imperceptable. I use Franklin's Titebond. but there are >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> good >>>>>>> glues that do just as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "bob" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:55 AM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>>>>> colors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Matching old finishes is pretty tricky. I find the best way to do >>>>>>> > this >>>>>> is >>>>>>> > to use old veneer that is similar the original used on the piece. >>>>>>> > I >>>>>>> > try >>>>>>> > to >>>>>>> > save veneer from old pieces that are too far gone to restore. >>>>>>> > Most >>>>>>> > old >>>>>>> > veneer is finished with a stain varnish. It can be sanded off >>>>>>> > easily. >>>>>>> > The >>>>>>> > key is not to remove the filler in the veneer.. I cut the section >>>>>>> > to >>>>>>> > be >>>>>>> > patched with razor blade held at a 45 degree angle. Then I >>>>>>> > feather >>>>>>> > sand >>>>>>> > the >>>>>>> > edge of the patch at a similar angle. If the veneer is too thick, >>>>>>> > sand >>>>>> it >>>>>>> > form the back side with coarse sandpaper. When it fits properly >>>>>>> > you >>>>>>> > can >>>>>>> > glue it in with white glue. You can then use any stain you like >>>>>>> > to >>>>>> darken >>>>>>> > the patch to match the piece if necessary. I usually use gel >>>>>>> > stains >>>>>> that >>>>>>> > can be wiped on with a rag. After a few minutes you can wipe off >>>>>>> > the >>>>>>> > excess. The more you remove the lighter the color will be. When >>>>>>> > your >>>>>>> > satisfied with the color you can clear coat the area to achieve a >>>>>>> > gloss >>>>>>> > similar to the rest of the piece. The clear coat may darken the >>>>>>> > color >>>>>>> > a >>>>>>> > little so it's best to make some sample pieces with both the stain >>>>>>> > and >>>>>>> > clear >>>>>>> > coast finish on them before you finish the patches on your piece. >>>>>>> > I >>>>>> think >>>>>>> > this technique will also work on a complete piece if you can find >>>>>>> > a >>>>>> piece >>>>>>> > of >>>>>>> > old veneer large enough to cover a new piece of wood. >>>>>>> > RMV >>>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> > From: "Mark Albertson" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> > To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 11:30 PM >>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>>>> colors >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >> Ken: >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> I see that no one is jumping in here. So I will try to give you >>>>>>> >> some >>>>>>> >> pointers. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Each collector has his or her preference as to finishes. Some >>>>>>> >> use >>>>>>> >> original >>>>>>> >> shellac (orange or clear). Others like oils, and yet others like >>>>>> lacquer >>>>>>> >> based products for big jobs such as cabinets or uprights. When >>>>>>> >> it >>>>>> comes >>>>>>> >> to >>>>>>> >> these choices, the size of the job matters as does what one is >>>>>>> >> most >>>>>>> >> comfortable with. The application also matters...ie: spray vs. >>>>>>> >> rubbed >>>>>> on >>>>>>> >> vs. ragged on. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> So, choosing your refinishing medium is really a personal choice >>>>>>> >> as >>>>>>> >> to >>>>>>> >> what >>>>>>> >> your comfortable with and trying to accomplish. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> By the sounds of it, you have original finish machines that need >>>>>>> >> a >>>>>>> >> replacement board here or there and the question is how to >>>>>>> >> "match" >>>>>>> >> finishes...new to the old. Well, my experience suggests a great >>>>>>> >> deal >>>>>> of >>>>>>> >> patience, a practice board, and a variety of lighting conditions. >>>>>>> >> Patience >>>>>>> >> is obvious as is a practice board identical to the wood you will >>>>>>> >> be >>>>>>> >> working >>>>>>> >> with. Different lighting (natural vs. fluorescent, vs. >>>>>>> >> incandescent) >>>>>>> >> will >>>>>>> >> cause colors to act differently, so it's important to go slow and >>>>>>> >> check >>>>>>> >> in >>>>>>> >> different lights at different times using the medium of your >>>>>>> >> choice. >>>>>> But >>>>>>> >> you need a product to mix with your shellac, minwax oil >>>>>>> >> etc........read >>>>>>> >> on. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> I have found that the best product for dialing in and matching >>>>>>> >> finishes >>>>>>> >> is >>>>>>> >> an alcohol based anyline dye specifically made by the Wood Finish >>>>>> Supply >>>>>>> >> Company. They sell a metalized extract concentrate dye mixed in >>>>>>> >> MEK. >>>>>>> >> The >>>>>>> >> advantage of these dyes is that they dissolve in any base medium >>>>>>> >> you >>>>>> like >>>>>>> >> to >>>>>>> >> work in (shellac, oil, lacquer..etc.) and come in a host of >>>>>>> >> colors >>>>>>> >> for >>>>>>> >> very >>>>>>> >> precise color control (one drop at a time). In addition, the >>>>>>> >> company >>>>>>> >> provides baseline quantity combinations for most wood colors you >>>>>>> >> will >>>>>> be >>>>>>> >> seeking. I would recommend starting with four colors...black, >>>>>>> >> warm >>>>>>> >> brown, >>>>>>> >> yellow, and red.....each in 8oz bottles). From there you can >>>>>>> >> nail >>>>>>> >> down >>>>>>> >> most >>>>>>> >> all the colors we see in phonos except green oak. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Used alone, the dye will flash off and evaporate too fast for >>>>>>> >> custom >>>>>>> >> applications, so you need to use a baseline medium and then add >>>>>>> >> dye >>>>>> drops >>>>>>> >> to >>>>>>> >> that for your precision control of color. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Again, take a spoonful of patience before starting and have fun. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> You can check out Wood Finish Supply Co. at >>>>>>> >> www.woodfinishsupply.com >>>>>>> >> I >>>>>>> >> would >>>>>>> >> also suggest calling them. They are very helpful. Again, the >>>>>>> >> product >>>>>> is >>>>>>> >> "Metalized Extract Concentrate Dye in MEK"....Get the four colors >>>>>>> >> to >>>>>>> >> start. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Best >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Mark Albertson >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> >> From: "Ken Danckaert" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> >> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>>> >> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 3:57 PM >>>>>>> >> Subject: [Phono-L] Need advice on finishing and matching stain >>>>>>> >> colors >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>>I can do almost anything with metal but I have a devil of a time >>>>>>> >>>with >>>>>>> >>> the cases. When you have to make a new wood part for a cabinet, >>>>>>> >>> it >>>>>>> >>> is >>>>>>> >>> really difficult to color match close to the original. I would >>>>>>> >>> really >>>>>>> >>> like to see suggestions from you all on how you get wood parts >>>>>>> >>> to >>>>>>> >>> match. Maybe someone knows a good source for stains or finishes >>>>>>> >>> that >>>>>>> >>> help you get a match. Is there a magical technique out there? >>>>>>> >>> My >>>>>> brute >>>>>>> >>> strength approaches usually get me close but they are very time >>>>>>> >>> consuming and chancy. Any suggestions? >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Ken Danckaert >>>>>>> >>> Severna Park, MD >>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>> Phono-L mailing list >>>>>>> >>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Phono-L Archive >>>>>>> >>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >> Phono-L mailing list >>>>>>> >> [email protected] >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Phono-L Archive >>>>>>> >> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> -- >>>>>>> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>>>>> >> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/248 - Release Date: >>>>>> 2/1/2006 >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > Phono-L mailing list >>>>>>> > [email protected] >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Phono-L Archive >>>>>>> > http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Phono-L mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phono-L Archive >>>>>>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Phono-L mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> Phono-L Archive >>>>>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Phono-L mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> Phono-L Archive >>>>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Phono-L mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> Phono-L Archive >>>>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Phono-L mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> Phono-L Archive >>>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Phono-L mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> Phono-L Archive >>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Phono-L mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> Phono-L Archive >>> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Phono-L mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> Phono-L Archive >> http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/248 - Release Date: 2/1/2006 >> > > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > [email protected] > > Phono-L Archive > http://www.oldcrank.org/pipermail/phono-l/ >
