On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 4:14 PM, 'Tom Zander' via qubes-users <
qubes-users@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, 4 February 2018 18:10:44 CET Yuraeitha wrote:
> > Also it's been explicitly said that no Qubes 4 existing features will be
> > added to the new-old Qube Manager. Which might also hint towards no
> > changes coming to Qube Manager. If anything, it has to be re-made almost
> > entirely to work well with Qubes 4+, and currently no one is doing that.
> The Qubes Manager is written to Qt4, which is equally outdated as the
> backends of Qubes it used (3.x).
> I started a project using Qubes4-api and Qt5 APIs, though. See Ps at the
> bottom of the mail.
> [start rant]
> The biggest issue i ran into is that Qubes4 is just too immature to
> actually
> use for more than browsing and email. It was too painful for my desktop
> full-time work machine.
> I tried for 2 months, my significant other stated that I had been
> extraordinary patient with Qubes when I finally stopped using it ;)
> My problems are widespread;
> * the admin-api is very immature and poorly implemented. Getting a stack-
> trace in the server logs and no answer is just unacceptable. Unit tests,
> anyone?
> * system-tray is hopelessly broken. Losing apps because they don't show in
> the system-tray up when you close them was fun!
> * The design of qubes-daemon is too fragile, it starts/stops VMs and
> patiently waits and hopes everything will work. I expected a much more
> 'hands-on' approach (at least for Linux kernels) with much more reporting.
> I
> also lost data because apps aren't being quit, they are being killed on VM
> shutdown.
> * Why do I see 'lock'-icons for most of my windows in the task-bar?
> * the documentation is very out-of-date.
> * I don't know how, it may be fedora packaging, it may be qubes packaging
> or
> configs, but the amount of KDE (apps running in dom0) crashes I had in the
> 2
> months of using Qubes is greater than the amount i had in the previous 5
> years. This boggles the mind...
> * The graphics pipeline is hopelessly outdated. Its about a decade behind
> the industry.
> * Poor quality of many tools, the icon-copier copying the 22px icon from a
> VM instead of the 256 one that was also there is just... sad.
> * The amount of services, bash-scripts, config files, duplicated data in
> qubes and then again in the system is horrible, under documented mess.
> * rexecd validation being implemented using bash is a joke (mostly felt
> because its extremely slow)
> * total lack of mature end-user-focused tools. Swear to God. There are zero
> today.
> * Having nothing but python APIs for your operating system is something
> that
> makes no sense. Python was never meant for servers, or even big
> applications. Finding a full-stack python developer is more rare than
> finding a Bitcoin C++ developer.
> end-rant.
> Qubes is an amazing idea, has some fantastic and genius concepts in it.
> I hope many of those things will get fixed, although the list has grown so
> long that I'm not sure it can without being forked.

I am here from the first release of Qubes and every new major release it
was the same: a major remake breaking almost everything that was working
fine. The miracle was that over time devs were able to fix it again. How
much time? About one year. So I am still using 3.2 with no plan to upgrade
anytime soon.

So I understand that if you are using R4 as your daily operative machine it
may be too much. Also in your case the situation is even worse because you
are dealing with the GUI which will be the last to be fixed.

But it will be fixed faster than you think as always happened in the past.
Also I have a strong feeling that this will be the last major remake, so
there will be plenty of time to polish it. Are you in a hurry? Take your
time, open your heart to the community as you have done now.  Ask what you
need and be faithful, it will be done.

You cannot impose your rhythm to a project like Qubes because resources are
really very limited, this is why you finished your patience. But just adapt
to Qubes own rhythm and you'll enjoy this wonderful community and this
awesome project.  Your GUI needs will be a strong stimulus to pay more
attention to the needs of ends users.  Often developers see only their
needs. Well it is natural specially in an open source project. But end
users are the only ones able to confirm the real success of a project over

But try also to understand if there are conditions for your Qubes Manager
to be incorporated as an official tool.

You wrote you accepted my offer to cover some efforts of a rewritten Qubes
Manager with $5000. Do not leave me with this money, rather help us promote
the idea that end users should pay for what is directly done for them like

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