I don't understand what is wrong with "military looking". Bob Simons
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jer. 29:11 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff & Ellrena Ortner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:33 PM Subject: [RR] Camo uniforms? > The item sent from a email Scout page is not what we trying to promote, it > is a understanding of the problems that could, do and will happen at camps. > WE DO NOT go by BSA standards, but we do glean from over 100 years of > experience. If not, look at the resources of where our Royal Rangers leaders > manual came from, and read the credits were we got our information. I too > don't go y scout rules of BSA but I have to agree with Ronnie Franklin > about Camo's and para-military looks today. Setting the right image to a > lost world is very important, Using fatigues is not camo, and solid colors > is what we use as a summer wear. Khaki 6-pocket fatigues, many of the boys > wear the hiking pants that look just like them. I see nothing wrong wearing > this as it doesn't portray a military style look. > CAMO DOES and WILL cause people to take a second curious look at what > kind of group you are. I see no good in wearing shirts or pants in camo > colors for class C, D, or F uniforms. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jonathan Marcantel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:40 PM > Subject: [Leaders] Re: [Leaders] Camo Uniforms, NOPE not for my group > > > > Gentlemen- > > > > Far be it for me to assert my opinion- for I have been in Rangers for only > > just over 2 years (as a Pioneer Cdr.) Why are we using BSA guidelines to > > argue (for or against) uniform regs in Rangers? Here's my take on this > > subject. > > > > I feel that wearing BDU pants during Rangers is ok; we prefer the boys to > > wear their khakis, however, Calcasieu Parish (Louisiana is governed by > > Napoleonic Code, not Common Law, hence parish) School Board instituted a > > dress code for K-12th grades. The uniform pants are blue or khaki with > > white, green or blue shirt. Anyway, alot of my boys only have 2 pair of > > khaki pants that they own- they use them for school and for Rangers. > > Therefore, we allow the boys to wear Class A, B, or C uniforms to the > > meetings. Class C as I can best remember (cant quote- @ school and my LM > is > > at the house) is Blue jeans or BDU pants with Ranger Tshirt. So here's my > > point: why use BSA stuff to govern Rangers?! THIS IS NOT BOY SCOUTS! WE > ARE > > ROYAL RANGERS. There is a BIG difference, right from the get go. And > > before you ask, I was in Boy Scouts as a kid. So please, if you are going > > to continue to use BSA references, stop, look it up in your Royal Rangers > > Leaders Manual (that every commander should own a copy of...ours were > > provided with our training material during LTC) and quote from there. > And > > while I am ranting, didnt we have this same discussion about quoting BSA > > regs instead of RR regs awhile back?? BSA regs on uniforms have NO > bearing > > WHATSOEVER on our Royal Ranger uniform regs. > > > > Thanks for lettimg me rant, > > > > Jonathan Marcantel > > Pioneer Cdr. > > OP 109 > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > From: "Jeff Ortner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [Leaders] Camo Uniforms, NOPE not for my group > > Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 09:38:31 -0500 > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Received: from [209.48.241.70] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id > > MHotMailBE97F64B00A740043752D130F14607C50; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 07:34:01 -0700 > > Received: from ace.htcomp.net (ace.htcomp.net [207.17.189.146]) by > > mailsvr-2.itexas.net (Vircom SMTPRS 1.1.219) with ESMTP id > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 30 > > Apr 2002 09:39:08 -0500 > > Received: from htcomp.net (unverified [127.0.0.1]) by ace.htcomp.net > > (Rockliffe SMTPRA 5.2.3) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, > 30 > > Apr 2002 09:38:31 -0500 > > From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue, 30 Apr 2002 07:34:58 -0700 > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > X-EM-Version: 6, 0, 1, 3 > > X-EM-Registration: #00E0620610781F002A20 > > X-Priority: 3 > > Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Read this and do agree with it too concerning Rangers in the same > > boat about Camo clothing. Thet have a few stinks too, > > > > Camouflage/Military Uniforms and Scouting > > > > Hi Scouters! > > This is a LONG POSTING because the questions and the followups > > deserved to be answered as completely as possible. I've also kept > > Mike Craig's original question as well as the e-mail addresses to > > others who contributed to the answering of this question while I have > > them. > > > > Mike Craig wrote and asked on rec.scouting.usa: > > > > We have had three scouts families join our troop in the last 2 months > > from troops based on military bases. All three fathers were/are > > registered adults, one of the adults still wears his district > > commissioner shirt. All have told our troop committee that wearing > > military camouflage pants and jackets is acceptable within the BSA > > policy. Our troop is not stationed on any base, and several other > > adults are questioning this 'policy'. > > > > Mike: > > > > Your "District Commissioner" guy is lying. > > > > Out and out, he's lying. > > > > The Boy Scouts of America does NOT approve of ANY camo clothing for > > wear by youth members nor adults at ANY TIME. > > > > The immediate reference to this is found in the first pages of the > > BSA's Insignia Guide where it states that "imitation of military > > uniforms and clothing is not permitted under the BSA's Charter and > > Bylaws and in accordance with federal law relating to the wear of > > that clothing." (those aren't the exact words, but it's close enough > > to the exact words; later, I'll find the exact wording and post > > it...). > > > > I AM a military officer, Mike, and I also served as a former District > > Commissioner. I KNOW that some "army people" will want to wear "army > > gear" to give the BSA program some sort of "specialness" they think > > isn't there already in the program. What I tell them, besides that > > it's illegal under FEDERAL LAW (and the Uniform Code of Military > > Justice, which gets their attention REALLY QUICKLY!), is that this is > > like a soldier showing up for work in a pair of Scout pants and a BDU > > (Battle Dress Uniform, the "work uniform" of the Army) shirt. > > > > There has been NO MOVE, no discussion, not even any kind of > > consideration toward wearing ANY form of camoed gear by Scouts, > > Explorers/Venturers, or Scouters. > > > > Just to let the guy know, Mike: In 1996, two Scouters wearing camoed > > pants and a Scouts shirt were REFUSED ENTRY into a Council Camporee > > by the Scout Executive of that Council. The Scout Executive informed > > them of the BSA's uniforming policy and told them that unless they > > choose to be in compliance with that policy, they would not be > > allowed entry into the Camporee. One adult complied; the other adult > > re-asserted his personal right to wear whatever the hell he wanted to > > wear. The Scout Executive simply said "fine", both Scouters went into > > the camp facility. > > > > An hour later, the Scout Executive, accompanied by the local County > > sheriff, served the Scouter still wearing the camo gear with a > > "letter of membership denial", and advised him that since he is no > > longer a registered member of the BSA, that his presence on the > > campground is no longer welcomed. He was given 15 minutes to pack out > > his gear, and he and his son (because the man said "If I go, my son > > goes too...") was escorted off the camp property by the law > > enforcement people. > > > > The message THAT Scout Executive, in central Alabama (the home to > > hunters, trappers and outdoorsmen of all persuasions) gave was that > > "there's no place in the BSA for militaristic uniforming." > > > > So, Mike, you might want to share this little tidbit of information > > with your "former District Commissioner" friend and let him know.... > > > > The same statement found in the Charter and Bylaws is found in the > > BSA's Insignia Guide. > > > > It does NOT matter, Mike, if the person used to be a Scouter in > > Europe or Asia. The SAME policy applies for Scouters there as they do > > for Scouters in the States. I have been a Scouter in Europe for many > > years, and I can tell you that we in Scouting Europe are even MORE > > hard-nosed about the wearing of camo than our peers in the States > > are...because we're there and are aware of the possible "mixed > > message" that wearing such things can produce among our "host > > nations" and their Scouting associations. > > > > Other then the Handbook, where can I find the documented Policy for > > the BSA uniform? Is a copy of this document on the web? Do the BSA > > Policy or Guidelines specifically address camouflage clothing? If so, > > where can I find this information? > > > > and Big Chris wrote: > > > > Usually, I defer to your knowledge, but this is a bit out of left > > field for you Mike. > > > > Sorry you think so, Big Chris, but the fact of the matter is that the > > BSA has established uniform policy and standards. > > > > Camoed pants and shirts (whether or not they have the nametapes on > > them or not) and whether they are purchased at a military clothing > > goods store or at an "Army-Navy store" are NOT one of the standards > > for ANYONE in the BSA's programs. It is not an appropriate uniform, > > nor is it a personal option. If we are going to do Scouting, let's at > > least look the part of Scouts and Scouters. > > > > Jean pants, I can see...the earlier Scouts wore dungarees and shirts > > until they could afford the pants and leggings. Other pants, again, I > > can see until they can get the official pair. Jackets...again, I can > > see wearing what Mom and Dad got you as an outdoor jacket to "play > > rough" in and to keep you warm. But a Camoed jacket isn't an option > > to wear with the Scout uniform. They don't mix. > > > > CAMOED pants and shirts, I don't see at all...even until they can get > > the official pair. They don't mix and presents a negative image of > > Scouting and Scouts. > > > > A couple other points: > > > > You wrote in part: > > > > I don't think many people will mistake a group for 14 year olds in > > the woods for the US Marines. > > > > Not necessarily the Marines, Chris, but as part of a paramilitary > > group (which the BSA is trying hard to distance themselves from!). > > Surely you don't want your son and his friends being associated with > > the "Young Klan".... > > > > No, we don't hunt, but there is nothing wrong with blending in with > > our surroundings, in fact I prefer that over a troop running around > > in hot pink. > > > > Why? Why are we trying to 'blend into our surroundings', Chris?? Even > > with our earlier uniform -- the green khaki uniforms didn't readily > > blend in with the outdoor surroundings (it did a better job than the > > current khaki-tan shirts do), but we were not concerned with > > "blending in" back then, so why should we do it now?? > > > > Are we in Scouting "trying to hide what we're doing" in the woods?? > > No. We want people to see our program and what we're doing....so, > > there's NO need to camouflage any aspect of our outdoor program! > > > > ...and finally.... > > > > I can choose to wear whichever I want, the GSS (Guide to Safe > > Scouting) does not limit the colors or patterns one might wear. > > > > No, it doesn't, Chris...but the Rules and Regulations (I previously > > stated that this was in the Charter and Bylaws) of the BSA does limit > > you. > > > > Here's the official statement: > > > > "BSA Rules and Regulations, Article X, Section 4, Clause 4. > > Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation: > > > > a). No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as > > described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations > > covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations > > thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting > > official or local Council or any local executive board or committee, > > except the National Executive Board after consideration by the > > Program Group Committee. > > > > b) Imitation of United States Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Air Force > > uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of Act of > > Congress, approved June 3, 1916." > > > > And JW Walker wrote in part: > > > > I think we now need the benefit of seeing the actual written BSA > > guidelines concerning "civilian" camo.... > > > > Me too, JW. The BSA doesn't address "civilian camo" in anything > > except written memorandum to Scout Executives concerning "camouflage > > clothing worn by Scouts and Scouters" (the last copy of such a item I > > have was dated November 1994 and was signed by the former Program > > Group Director now Chief Scout Executive). > > > > As part of the memorandum, it talks about the Insignia Guide being > > updated to reflect the emphasis...but I have three copies of the > > Insignia Guide here in my hotel room, and all three doesn't address > > "civilian camo" like "hunting gear" even though Mr. Williams' > > memorandum does address "hunting and military-style clothing and > > equipment" in the memorandum. > > > > He states that "hunting and military-style clothing, combined with or > > worn instead of the official Boy Scout or Explorer uniform, are not > > acceptable wear during any Boy Scouting or Exploring activity. Scout > > Executives are to instruct unit leaders and volunteers that those > > articles of clothing along with equipment like pistol belts, > > suspenders and military field gear are not allowed to be worn with > > official Boy Scouts of America clothing or in the place of BSA > > uniforms and outdoor clothing." (I wish that someone will dig out > > that copy and send it to the Chief and tell him to please post in in > > the new edition of the Insignia Guide.....I think it's pretty clear > > but it's not out there where everyone can read and go by it....) > > > > I can only post what the Rules and Regulations state, and it doesn't > > address "hunting camo" or "military gear", but DOES make a point of > > talking about uniforming which is clearly "military", as the poster > > asked about. > > > > Does the BSA National policy on camo pants list them as "prohibited" > > or are they "discouraged"?... > > > > I posted the exact wording, JW...it can't be any clearer than that. > > We in the BSA DO NOT WEAR MILITARY-STYLE CLOTHING as part of our > > uniforms. > > > > As to your account of a Council Executive "banning a Scouter for > > life" and throwing his son out of a Camporee.. I would love to see > > the complete story... > > > > First, the facts are that the Scouter was given a "letter of denial > > of membership". Not "banned for life". The letter of denial of > > membership offers that Scouter an opportunity to appeal that decision > > through the Region and if necessary, through the BSA's National > > Executive Board. As I wrote, the Scouter was then escorted off the > > property by the local law enforcement personnel acting at the behest > > of the Council's Scout Executive. > > > > Second, the man's son was NOT "thrown out of the camp"; he left with > > Daddy when Daddy was being escorted off the property because Daddy > > didn't want him there anymore. > > > > Third, the rules (including the prohibition on the wearing/usage of > > camouflaged clothing) was in the materials sent to every unit prior > > to the Camporee...and those two Scouters I am sure were not the only > > ones asked to change....most did once they understood what the "deal > > was". This guy was determined to have his own way no matter what the > > "rules are"...and like you, I am sure that the Council's Scout > > Executive used an appropriate level of tact when explaining and > > asking the two Scouters to please change their clothing before coming > > into the camp. I am positive that this guy didn't immediately "fly > > off the handle" and say "it's my way or the highway...." > > > > Fourth, the same weekend as the Camporee, *another organization which > > uses camouflaged materials as a uniform* was holding a similar type > > event close by. The Council was aware of it, which is why the Scout > > Executive was present at the Camporee. > > > > I am sure that if you contact someone in the Central Alabama Council > > whom was there when the Council was the Tennessee Valley Area Council > > (I believe that was the name of the Huntsville, AL Council before > > it's merger), they can probably give you lots more detail. It was a > > big deal back then..... > > > > Do I REALLY have to say this again?? I guess so.... > > > > A SCOUT EXECUTIVE (not your District Executive, but the Council's > > Scout Executive or Council Executive) can remove ANY REGISTERED > > SCOUTER from the BSA for ANY REASON WHATSOEVER ("I don't like you; > > you're a troublemaker; you are not a "team player"; you do not follow > > the Scout Oath and Law....") for ANY PERIOD OF TIME (two weeks, a > > month, six months, forever...) AT ANY TIME. > > > > He or she does NOT need a "hearing" to determine whether or not to > > remove you; he or she does NOT have to contact National to do this > > (although most do as a matter of course and in the processing of the > > refund of your prorated registration fee). > > > > He or she simply has to complete two pieces of paper, faxing one copy > > to the BSA's Registration Service, and deliver the original to you in > > person or via registered mail the letter and that's it. > > > > Done. Finished. End of story. And if he or she feels that you will > > not cooperate appropriately, he or she can be accompanied by the > > Council's legal counsel and/or by law enforcement personnel. > > > > This is all written in the BSA's "Maintaining Standards of > > Membership" publication which every Scout Executive has and can use. > > > > Someone posted me privately and asked me "Does this mean that unless > > I show up wearing the COMPLETE SCOUT UNIFORM (pants, shirt, etc.), I > > stand the chance of being thrown out of Scouts?" > > > > NO. > > > > The BSA's policy is simple: we do NOT wear clothing which is > > associated with our military. It cannot be any simpler than that, > > folks. We don't wear "camo pants or shirts". We don't wear "camoed > > field jackets". We don't wear those military camo hats -- even if it > > has a BSA emblem on it. > > > > We have a uniform, and everyone should wear it. SHOULD is the > > operative word. If you show up at a Scouting event wearing jeans with > > your shirt, I feel that while some people will question your choice > > of clothing, nobody will throw you out of the program. > > > > But the BSA is VERY STRONG on its members wearing SCOUTING-LIKE > > CLOTHING as opposed to MILITARY-LIKE CLOTHING. > > > > WHY?? > > > > > > *Paramilitary organizations -- and more closely, their "young adult > > organizations" tied to them -- wear camoed clothing. It doesn't take > > a rocket scientist to understand that there stands to be a bit of > > confusion, especially in locations in our country where those > > organizations freely (as they should be) organize and participate in > > local events and activities, between the BSA program and their "club" > > or "group". The BSA stands in part for equality, and this is the > > strongest reason why the BSA and some local Councils come down hard > > on people wearing such clothing during BSA events and activities. > > > > *It is against FEDERAL LAW. With all due respect to my peers over at > > rec.scouting.issues arguing about why the BSA doesn't follow "ALL > > federal laws", this is a no-brainer. This could get people placed IN > > JAIL, not just fined or slapped on the wrist. The law clearly states > > that only military people (active, reserve, guard, retirees) wear > > military clothing. > > A while back here, I posted a note in part based on what happened to > > some Scouts whom were wearing military-like clothing. The military > > police, looking for a deserter, saw the boy and his friends who bore > > the same description as the deserter. They detained all three boys > > and gave them the opportunity for their parents to come get them > > after they determined (a few hours) that "they were not deserters". > > Yes, that's a responsibility of our military police, working with > > local law enforcement, to have -- to find deserters and return them > > to military custody. > > > > > > *We don't hunt in the BSA. While some Venturing units may use > > handguns or rifles in their program, the BSA doesn't hunt. So, we > > don't need to "blend in with the woods" to do our program. (note: The > > Venturing program has an OPTION whereby Venturers working toward the > > Ranger Award, can indeed hunt. However, while hunter training is a > > part of the Venturing program, it is NOT a part of the Boy Scout, > > Varsity Scout, or Cub Scouting programs.) > > > > *It doesn't even MATCH. There's NOTHING in our khaki-tan uniform > > shirts which matches the woodland or desert patterns of military > > clothing. So why would you want to wear such clothing (I know, I > > know...it keeps you warmer than the BSA's stuff does. Good come-back. > > So find something which IS NOT CAMOED to wear instead if you feel > > that way). > > > > ONE MORE TIME, because I can just see my email box filling with > > "comments": > > The BSA (not Mike Walton) says "no military clothing". Our Sea > > Scouting program uses clothing approved by the Coast Guard and Navy > > and which is DISTINCTIVELY DIFFERENT from their uniforms. Their > > insignia is located in DIFFERENT PLACES than how we wear ours, and > > the color scheme is DIFFERENT. Our Venturing, Boy Scouting and Cub > > Scouting programs have NO NEED for "military clothing". And in > > Learning for Life/Exploring, those units associated with military > > installations or their units, wear clothing which is NOT CLOSE to the > > official military clothing worn by our Army, Air Force, Coast Guard, > > Navy, or Marine Corps. > > > > If you show up wearing jeans or chinos or Levi's (tm) pants, chances > > are very little will be said about it...uniforms ARE expensive and > > there ARE people whom cannot afford every bit of clothing the BSA > > puts out. Financial realities say you wear what you can afford to > > wear and most people will understand this and will do what they can > > to help you out. I've seen it happen here a lot and it should > > continue. > > > > But let's not trade in what is LAWFULLY WRONG with what's > > "comfortable and cheap"...again, with respect to the ongoing > > conversation going on down the hall in rec.scouting.issues, two > > wrongs don't make a right, and if there's a law on the books (the > > BSA's or in THE BOOKS), the BSA and it's membership does the best it > > can to uphold that law. > > > > The other Scouter, by the way, allowed entry into the campground > > > area, changed into a pair of jeans; and Scout Executives DO have that > > power to remove anyone from the program at any time for any reason > > and all it takes is a phone call and a typewritten piece of paper to > > do it and its done. > > > > Mike Brown wrote and asked: > > > > So, what are the grounds for appeal, if the CE can remove you for any > > reason whatsoever? > > > > The underlying reason for denial of membership, Mike, is because "the > > person is not a suitable positive example of an adult using the Scout > > Oath and Law in his or her life". It's a judgemental personal > > character thing. > > > > So, to appeal to the Region or to National, one must demonstrate > > through written exhibits (one cannot appear before the appeal > > committee nor can he or she have legal or other representation to > > appear before the appeal committee) and testimonials that indeed you > > are a person of sound, moral character and that to the best of their > > knowledge, know that you try to abide by the Scouting ideals in your > > life as a Scouter and around young people. > > > > The appeal process is explained in a paragraph and a half in the > > letter of denial. > > > > Even though the BSA's own publications publish photos containing > > Scouts and Scouters wearing incomplete uniforms, uniforms with badges > > in wrong places and Scouters wearing military-style items - that does > > NOT denote "a change in policy". (Changes in official policy come > > down from National to our local Councils in written form.) "Anything > > goes to make a good action photo", one of the BSA's photographers > > commented to me way back when I asked about why they continue to take > > "action photos" of Scouts wearing "whatever". "It gives the idea that > > the uniform is secondary to the activity." It's hard to disagree with > > that statement, gang, but it's still one of my personal pet peeves of > > our Magazine and Editorial Divisions. > > > > I've already posted the BSA's policy as it is written in their > > publications. I've also provided separately a snippet from a BSA > > professional memoradum on the same subject. Additionally, Stephen > > Henning (a field professional posting from Pennsyvania) provided a > > similiar take on this on rec.scouting.usa about this topic: > > > > Stephen M. Henning wrote: > > > > Point: not all camo is military. Much is for sporting such as that > > for archers. More important points: no camo is appropriate for > > Scouting: > > > > 1) bright orange clothing is more appropriate than camo for safety. > > 2) uniformity is appropriate so that a Scout group is recognizable as > > a Scout group. > > 3) hunting is not an approved Scout activity. > > 4) military games are not approved Scout activities. > > 5) units that wear camo usually have much bigger problems than the > > camo. I have never seen a good troop wear camo, and I have seen many > > troops with serious problems wear camo. It is usually a symptom of a > > "boys club" that wants to use the name "Scouting" but doesn't use > > Scouting methods or Scouting principles and doesn't achieve Scouting > > aims. > > > > > > Finally, a Scouter wrote me privately and asked me (I'm leaving his > > name and location out...it doesn't matter who he is or where he's > > from...): > > > > You wrote and asked me: > > > > I am a Scoutmaster for a new Troop and we are trying to acquire > > uniforms for out Scouts. We have access to a large quantity of > > inexpensive unofficial shirts. The only real difference is BSA > > nametape, unofficial buttons, and slightly more khaki than beige > > color. > > > > In other words, these are surplus military shirts. Why haven't you > > asked your local Council to assist you in getting some "experienced" > > Scout shirts instead of trying to "create" a shirt from "TW" khaki > > shirts. > > > > There's several problems with the way you want to do this: > > > > First, the "Boy Scouts of America" strip isn't something you can > > order from the Supply Division. They are only manufactured with the > > stock Scout shirts. This means that you have to purchase or somehow > > get some tan shirts, remove the strips from those shirts, and attach > > them to your shirts. They are made also in a color combination which > > doesn't come close to the khaki color used on the shirts. > > > > Second, the pockets of the "TW" (tropical wear, or the khaki shirts > > used by the military in the past) are not of the same size and > > dimension of the BSA pockets. This is the most obvious "discovery" > > that the shirt isn't a BSA shirt. > > > > Third, while you can purchase the BSA buttons from the Supply > > Division (they come in a sewing kit), the buttonholes on the shirt > > are SMALLER than the Scout buttons by about a quarter-inch. That > > doesn't mean anything between you and me, but can cause some > > frustration for some kid trying to button the shirt and not realizing > > that a lot more pressure would have to be exerted on the button to > > get it through the smaller buttonhole. > > > > I can understand the financial situations that many of your Scouts > > may be under, but I also know from fact that if a kid wants a $5-10 > > Scout shirt, then they can save the cash to get one. While new shirts > > cost between $12 and $19 (based on material), older shirts cost a lot > > less. As a matter of fact, I've got sitting beside me in my office > > here in the Pentagon a cotton and a polyblend small Scout shirt which > > I purchased for the patches via eBay for $16. ($8 per shirt). > > > > The other thing you need to do is to have a fund-raiser involving > > your Scouts with the purpose of purchasing Scout shirts. This too is > > where your local Council will come into play here...they can purchase > > the shirts under a reduced-price plan straight from the Supply > > Division (you can't do this on your own; it requires a signature from > > a field professional because they reduce the price based on the > > professional's "expense accounting code", which he or she has to > > provide). The fund-raiser also establishes the fact that you and your > > chartering organization are DEAD SERIOUS about organizing and > > supporting Scouting and the new Troop. > > > > When we "try to short-cut the program", it gives a definite message > > to the youth that other aspects of the program can be likewised > > "short-cutted" just because "we are who we are". If you ask your > > Scouts about this, they will tell you privately (or publicly) that > > "we want to do the same things that every other Scout has to do" and > > that means to raise or have their own, official Scout shirt. NOTHING, > > and I do mean NOTHING makes a child feel most inferior when *they > > know* that the clothing they are wearing are "knockoffs" of the real > > mccoys. They can deal with wearing "someone else' shirt" as long as > > its the SAME shirt that EVERYONE ELSE in Scouts is wearing (they can > > look in the mirror and see the same things that the books and the > > other kids have) but they can't deal with the teasing and stares and > > pointed fingers that they will get with "piecemeal uniforms." > > > > Ask your Council if they have "experienced" uniforms that they can > > loan or give you....most Councils have them (they get them from Sal > > Army, GoodWill and other sources to include the BSA's Supply > > Division). Raise the money to purchase a new or "experienced" uniform > > shirt for each Scout and Scouter. Go online to one of the auction > > houses (eBay and Yahoo frequently have the old "khaki tan" shirts for > > auction starting at $1.00 each). > > > > But please don't try to "make a Scouting uniform" from a "military > > uniform". That may have worked back when Scouting was younger, when > > people truly didn't care, and when there was less of a "divide" > > between "rich" and "poor". It doesn't work today. > > > > I truly feel that every Scout -- and I'm am example of that "every > > Scout" statement -- can raise the money to purchase a Scout shirt. > > That's the most important part of the Scout uniform, and it is the > > part which all of the insignia of our program goes on and is > > displayed from. It is the item which makes me just as equal as every > > other Scout in every other Troop in every other Council. It it the > > item which tells the world that I'm ready for service. > > > > I and every Scout deserves to have "the real deal" and not a > > "imitation shirt". And the same goes for camoed gear as well. > > > > I hope this all helps out! Thanks to those who contributed in this > > page! > > > > > > > > > > ----------- > > This message was sent on [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you need information > > on valid commands on this list, including how to unsubscribe, send a > message > > to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following word in the body of > > the message: Help > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > > ----------- > > This message was sent on [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you need information > on valid commands on this list, including how to unsubscribe, send a message > to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following word in the body of > the message: Help > > > > _______ > Let the Golden Rule be your daily rule. > > Please pray for your list sponsor: http://eBible.org/mpj/ > > To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe rangernet" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > or visit http://rangernet.org/subscribe.htm > http://rangernet.org > > _______ Let the Golden Rule be your daily rule. 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