[Gimp-developer] Playing with (color) matches
I'm in the market for a color matching book, and I certainly understand that GIMP is rightly focussing on other things right now. I further understand that the famous national brand for color matching is pretty insane about protecting its intellectual property. This really isn't much of an issue because there are other systems that I could use. But if I select a system that isn't supported in GIMP and will likely never be, I can see myself switching to Photoshop. AND I DON'T WANT TO SWITCH TO PHOTOSHOP. So can anyone recommend a color matching system that would be more likely than the others to be included in GIMP at some point, years in the future? -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- Don't mention the war... ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the symbol for inch can be ' ?
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008, Cristian Secar? wrote: Somewhere in the po-plug-ins file there is this string: The unit's symbol if it has one (e.g. \'\ for inches). The unit's abbreviation is used if doesn't have a symbol. Is this correct ? As far as I know the symbol for inch is , not '. I believe the definitive discussion of this is in This is Spinal Tap, where they mistakenly request a model of Stonehenge 18 high, instead of 18', resulting in a prop that was in danger of being crushed by a dwarf. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Please take me off of the list!
On Fri, 28 Nov 2008, David Owens wrote: I've tried and tried but no one will respond... I wanted to be active but things came up and now i cant and all this is is really spam for me... so if you could please take me off theat would be GREAT. No hard feelings... best of luck to you chaps. [Apologies if I'be posted this before] When you send unsubscribe requests to an email list, it lands in the mailboxes of hundreds of people who can't unsubscribe you. I can't unsubscribe you. Try the stuff below. Clip 'n' save these instructions for future reference. =8=Cut-Here=8= How To Unsubscribe From Any Email List 1. Look at the messages you've been getting on the list. Do they have how to unsubscribe messages near the end, or an email address to use in a List-Unsubscribe: header at the top? If so, follow those instructions. 2. Most lists these days, including all lists hosted by the big two (Yahoo! Groups and Topica), have an -unsubscribe alias for this purpose. For example, if you're on the WHATEVER list, either [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be the right address to use. (For the rest of this memo, let's assume that the WHATEVER list is at example.com -- that is, the alias is [EMAIL PROTECTED] If the list has a name like WHATEVER-L, you might try steps 6 and 7 first.) 3. Otherwise, first send a request to the -request alias. For our example, that would be [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is often read by a human being, so write accordingly. In theory, all email lists are supposed to implement this address (though Yahoo! Groups does not). 4. If you get no response from the above, send mail to the majordomo alias. That's [EMAIL PROTECTED] for our example. If the list is administered by the majordomo software, you'll get instructions for unsubscribing mailed back to you. 5. If you get no response, send mail to the owner- alias. For our example, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This should go to the human who administers the list. 6. If you get no response, send mail to LISTSERV. For our example, that address would be [EMAIL PROTECTED] The text of your message should be SIGNOFF WHATEVER. 7. If you get no response, send mail to the listproc alias. For our example, that address would be [EMAIL PROTECTED] The text of your message should be unsubscribe WHATEVER. 8. If you get no response, send mail to the site postmaster. For our example, that address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mention that you tried the previous five steps, to no avail. 9. If you get no response, send mail to root. Our example address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mention that you tried the previous six steps, to no avail. 10. If -- and only if -- all the above fail, send a message to the list itself. Make it courteous, particularly since the vast majority of the people reading it can't do a thing about it. The message should say something like, How do I get off this list?, not UNSUBSCRIBE. Try to avoid setting off a bunch of me too messages by saying something like, Please don't chime in with a bunch of 'I want to unsubscribe too' messages. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] CMYK editing (Was: GIMP PDF export plugin)
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Martin Nordholts wrote: I am by no means a photography professional and my point of view comes mostly from what other people have said regarding CMYK support; I don't have any direct sources to give. Could you perhaps clarify/give references to your claim that high-end photo editing apps are pushing for an RGB only work-flow? If you are going to print an image, CMYK _will_ play a role in your work-flow. I do work in the printing industry, and I can tell you that output is still CMYK, and will remain CMYK for at least the next few years. Well, some of it is 6-color Hexachrome. And the newest technology is digital presses like the HP Indigo, which are also 6-color or more. The cheap ones cost upwards of $160,000, not counting the product maintenance contract. No one is going to turn around and buy another press that uses a completely different workflow after dropping that much money on a brand new press just 4 years ago. I have seen no evidence that anyone is moving from a CMYK or 6-color workflow to an all-RGB workflow. I do know that some desktop printers use RGB color inputs, but those are desktop printers, not professional presses. The workflow may be different for photo editing than for some of the documents that I work on (most are spot jobs, but some involve image manipulation), especially with things like photo kiosks, but professional-quality press output will remain CMYK for quite some time. I recognize that CMYK editing is a difficult thing, and I'd encourage you to take the time to do it right, but I'd also encourage you to do it. It may take some work to convert current Adobe users to GIMP, but the way GIMP works now, you ensure that they can't even consider it. Full disclosure: I use Adobe products at work, but GIMP at home. I much prefer the UI of GIMP to that of Photoshop, and it works just fine for the amateur work that I enjoy as a hobby at home. In fact, GIMP can do all the professional things that I need it to at work--all except CMYK and spot. I don't even really use 16-bit much, and I can work around PMS colors. If GIMP had CMYK support, I could take my work home. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] CMYK editing (Was: GIMP PDF export plugin)
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Sven Neumann wrote: On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 17:51 -0400, Andrew A. Gill wrote: I do work in the printing industry, and I can tell you that output is still CMYK, and will remain CMYK for at least the next few years. Output, yes, of course. But where in this process do you actually edit an image in CMYK? I don't mean converting it to CMYK to get it printed. I mean actual editing after the conversion. Could you give us some examples of where that is needed? Oh, sure. Like I said, I mainly work with vectors and spot jobs, but I have, in the past, had to deal with some of these issues. Take the following image, for example: http://www.ets.ru/images/pk75.jpg To properly print this image, it should be trapped--that is, either the red plate or the black plate should be altered so that the red and black overlap. That way, a slight misregistration won't result in a white gap along the border. Trapping is usually pretty small, around .25 pt, but here's an exaggerated example of what will happen if you don't trap and the plates are misregistered: http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/superluser/whywetrap.png Some trapping can be done in vector programs and page layout programs, but images with non-geometric edges like the one above cannot. I would have to do it in GIMP, but I cannot do it in GIMP, because that would require having some of the pixels at 100% red and whatever shade of black it is at that point, and GIMP cannot do that because it does not have CMYK support. Likewise rich black. In cases where you are printing black on a multicolored border, it's useful to print in rich black, usually 60%C, 100%K. This makes the effects of trapping less noticeable. You can find an example of rich black here: http://www.graphic-design-employment.com/over-printing.html Again, it is not possible to do this in GIMP without CMYK support. Also, color correction. If I print a proof and it turns out that it is too cyan, I cannot simply turn up the red, because that will also adversely affect both the cyan and magenta plates. And finally, I agree with Sven that I don't know why anyone would want to have multipage PDF output for GIMP. I'd much rather see built-in DjVu support. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP PDF export plugin
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: 2. You have a newspaper where first page should have a two-color photo: black (C=0%M=0%Y=0%K=100%) and blue (C=100%M=0%Y=0%K=0%). separate+ however separates black to 4 channels. The Christian Science Monitor does this pretty frequently, and 2-color ads and brochures are fairly popular because they are cheap. You can look online for examples, but I have to get to my prepress job now. To me it's somewhat strange that GIMP's product vision doesn't mention prepress needs explicitly. Agreed. I don't think anyone here is looking for a Photoshop clone (I know that I personally hate PS for a variety of reasons), but we do realize that it has to compete with Photoshop, and not addressing the issues of large sections of the design market when your competitor does is probably not the best move. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP PDF export plugin
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Vincent Lordier wrote: This is valuable input you're giving actually How about collecting these use cases for prepress in the wiki here http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/ ? (like the UI team did with brainstorm here : http://gimp-brainstorm.blogspot.com/ ) You could put it using these kind of chapters : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWithoutRestricted This way, we could specify the GIMP a bit better and coordinate dev efforts ;) enjoy this day ! I'd be happy to, but I've got to get to work. InDesign is a flaky POS software that makes me wish there were a better free alternative. But since there isn't, I'll have to write up some examples when I get home. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP PDF export plugin
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, peter sikking wrote: Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: There was a somewhat heated discussion of this thread at linuxgraphics.ru forum and here are several examples from people who deal with prepress work on daily basis: 1. Client brings an image for poster in CMYK which needs color correction. Urgent work, not time to ask him to redo it. Double color space conversion is out of question. So he had to use Photoshop from VMWare. 2. You have a newspaper where first page should have a two-color photo: black (C=0%M=0%Y=0%K=100%) and blue (C=100%M=0%Y=0%K=0%). separate+ however separates black to 4 channels. 3. Some print houses set limit to overall sum of colors, for example 180%. So if you take Cyan 100% + Magenta 100% (already 200%) + a little of K and Y this will result in unnatural colors in a newspaper. 4. Live density control for each CMYK channel is a must (Scribus/SVN has that in preview dialog). To me it's somewhat strange that GIMP's product vision doesn't mention prepress needs explicitly. A vision is an expression of the project of what they want the software to be. There is choice in there, and the user community cannot demand that GIMP does certain things. For instance making web mockups (including the required html + css generation) is explicitly not supported. Now what about that prepress. I think it is fairly safe to say that scribus' vision is to be prepress-king and GIMP should watch it not to want to overlap too much in that department. Everything in the above examples that reeks of newspaper, publications or multiple pages is a job for scribus. They want to do this. Scribus is vector-based, not raster based. I do not believe that Scribus has any intent to be allow raster-based editing, but I could be wrong. I have CC'd the Scribus list. Let us hear their opinions. Does Scribus intend to allow people to tackle the problems listed above? Or would you be able to trap the following image with Scribus? http://www.ets.ru/images/pk75.jpg The vision does speak about creating original art and I am all for it to bring this original art to the printing press. And not via the print dialog (I am also mr. openPrinting) but those printing presses that have operators. From the description above you can see what is should be like: first you create the art, then you bring it to the press. Mix master tape (in rgb) and then cut the lp (in cmyk). As someone who works in prepress, I can tell you that when we take it from original artwork to press, we have to run any raster artwork through Photoshop or a competing product. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP PDF export plugin
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:27 PM, Andrew A. Gill wrote: Agreed. I don't think anyone here is looking for a Photoshop clone (I know that I personally hate PS for a variety of reasons), but we do realize that it has to compete with Photoshop, and not addressing the issues of large sections of the design market when your competitor does is probably not the best move. Do we realize that? :) It is true that GIMP is usually seen as to-be-photoshop-substitution and its maturity in various areas in fact is the reason why people switch to GIMP. However GIMP doesn't seem to be driven by a will to make Photoshop die, die, die :) http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/competitor.html It's a product that has similar features. It's a competing product. (Personally, I want to make Photoshop die, die, die, but that's mainly because of a deep loathing for the UI.) -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | --___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP PDF export plugin
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Graeme Gill wrote: As I understand it, Scribus is not a pixel editor, it is a page layout package, rather a different thing altogether. For the record, Scribus does allow pixel editing. When you right click on an image and select Edit Image, it opens the image in GIMP. I think that's pretty strong evidence that there's no intent to do raster editing in Scribus itself. I really don't think people working in the graphic arts are going to want to master two different pixel editing packages, simply because one of them doesn't support anything other than RGB. If they're in the Linux sphere, then I guess they need to go and look at using Krita instead. FYI, Krita is extremely buggy. It has an SDI, which some people (e.g. me) don't like, but the code will improve and there may be improvements in the interface. Krita may indeed surpass GIMP. Sad, really, since I think GIMP can be the better product. [from here out, `you' refers to core GIMP developers] We want you to succeed, and all you need to do to succeed is to address some of the issues that users need. If you're telling us that GIMP has no intention of ever providing those things, we'll find another product. Maybe Krita when it becomes vaguely stable, or maybe a fork. But you've got the time to do it before the others catch up, and you've got GEGL, the toolset to do it right. Here's a thought: I can code. I'm sure others on this list can, too. Why don't you tell us what you would require for a CMYK mode to be incorporated into the trunk of GIMP. We can all read the API, but you can tell us what coding standards we need, what toes we can't step on and why other attempts to add similar functionality (like Cinepaint nee FilmGimp) foundered, and what we can do to avoid making those same mistakes. If you tell us what we need to do, we can do it. That's the point of Open Source! If you don't, people are going to get sick of the excuses and simply move on to develop this functionality somewhere else. From the outside, GIMP is seen as a shining example of what open source is capable of. Inside the OSS movement, it's seen much like the XFree86 guys--constantly bickering about the same issues. I'm sure that you'd have no trouble getting developers to work on a flagship product if they were convinced that it would end some of the internal conflicts in OSS. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP PDF export plugin
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Guillermo Espertino wrote: Even though I agree that most of the CMYK cases mentioned use CMYK almost as spot colors, I can think of a very common usage scenario in Graphic Design where you need to be able to edit CMYK directly: Corporate colors. Most frequently Pantones. Brands have their corporate colors and ask designers to use them, but they can not always afford extra spot passes in offset press, so the colors have to be converted to the most aproximate CMYK combination (the Pantone Bridge catalog is for that). So you have to adjust the color of a photograph of a sign, a truck and a producto of your client to their corporate CMYK color. It's a photograph, you need CMYK, you can't use spot. This is a very common scenario, and it's a task for a image manipulation program. Sadly for the cause of CMYK, that's not really a good example. That's a better example for the need for Pantone and other color matching system support. Which GIMP will eventually need, but I'm thinking that day will come a decade or two from now, hopefully when there's an open source rival for Pantone. (I actually plan to take that task on, myself in a few years, as part of some research) -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP PDF export plugin
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Louis Desjardins wrote: To this point I don?t believe it?s that important to start figuring out whether the case is as good an example as it possibly can. I guess we are not at all trying to make the trial of the use of CMYK in the printing industry! (Now, that would be a total waste of time!) For those interested I bet a full glass of beer ? available at LGM! ? that they can find without too much efforts plenty of explanations about CMYK use in the printing industry on the web. Even non-offset printing go by CMYK and inkjet printing involves CMYK plus Light Cyan, Light Mangenta and/or Vivid Magenta and some Black variations. Somehow, somewhere in the process these printers need to convert the data so the printer can use one of the CMYK inks that?s in the machine, be it toner or printing ink. There is no way to ignore this reality. I am informed that some CcMmYK printers accept only RGB data. In such cases, it would be better not to convert to CMYK, since it will only have to be converted back to RGB before it goes to the device. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP PDF export plugin
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Louis Desjardins wrote: This mostly depends on the RIP that is attached to the printer but really, this doesn?t prove the point of the need of CMYK editing ability to be wrong, does it? On the contrary. Just trying to give people all the facts. I find it helps to avoid being accused of partisanship. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP PDF export plugin
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Martin Nordholts wrote: I must say I find this a bit arrogant. Maybe. Probably. But I think it's time for me a a user to stop telling developers what I need and to start asking what you need to make that happen. I think it's time to stop looking at this from the position of nebulous wants and desires and to start looking at the end product and asking what restrictions need to be placed on its development. Where does it connect to the rest of the program? How does it interact with the rest of the program? When we know that, we'll be able to start figuring out how best to implememt it. Supporting someone that is inexperienced with hacking on the GIMP core I'm not asking for support. I'm just asking you what the shape of the hole is that the CMYK peg must fit into. I'm not really suggesting that I tackle the problem, but in my experience, the first response to ``You should have feature X'' is usually ``You forgot to attach the patch.'' Talk is cheap, and somebody needs to offer to help. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP PDF export plugin
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Vincent Lordier wrote: Hello happy CMYK warriors, This is valuable input you're giving actually How about collecting these use cases for prepress in the wiki here http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/ ? Well, I'm a man of my word and so I just contributed my wiki attempt to do my part to change this from pie-in-the-sky dreaming. There's an incomplete draft here: http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/ToDo/FloorpieCMYK I still need to come up with a good color correction example and a good rich black example, but I should sleep now. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP PDF export plugin
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, yahvuu wrote: just to be shure (i'm probably just paraphrasing Andrew A. Gill's follow-up): No, you're not. That came out a little sharp. Let me try to soften it. You're entitled to your opinion, but I just want to make sure that there's no misunderstanding. I think this task can be done equally well in an RGB space, say sRGB. If Pantone's Bridge has sRGB approximations, it should be trivial. If not, you have to convert that single color from your best-guess CMYK to sRGB first. I said before that I didn't think this was a real use for CMYK, but that is because I think that even if GIMP had CMYK support, it would not be able to perform this task well enough. GIMP would need native Pantone support, which I don't think is really that useful at this time. As little as I trust Pantone to CMYK, I trust Pantone to RGB even less. By this i mean anything which can't be done by processing the plates as separate grayscale channels (see ?yvind Kolas's post). This is not fun. What you are suggesting is a very laborious process, and having such a process work properly would probably result in tens of minutes to hours of wasted time, depending on the image in question. And it still would result in one of the following: 1.) A helper application which creates the CMYK image 2.) GIMP still is unable to deal with trapping or rich black. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP PDF export plugin
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, ?yvind Kol?s wrote: I was not describing user interface anywhere in my mail, To be honest, I think I missed your message. If I have mischaracterized what you have said (and judging from what you say below, it looks like someone has), I crave pardon. Here's what I was disagreeing with: yahvuu: Yet AFAIKS none of the examples has shown a requirement for doing actual image processing in CMYK space (which is a good thing, btw). To justify this, the message continues: yahvuu: By this i mean anything which can't be done by processing the plates as separate grayscale channels (see ?yvind Kolas's post). It sounds to me like the latter sentence is referring to the UI, considering the content of the former sentence. I was describing underlying implementation mechanisms. GEGL stores pixels in buffers that can store and on demand convert to and from RGB, YCbCr, CIE Lab and Grayscale (dynamically extendable with other color models). Allowing image processing operations to be implemented using the models best fit for a particular operation. I certainly don't take issue with that. At the moment I do not have interest in CMYK but the above outline is in line with my ideas on how GEGL should evolve. At first blush, what you said seems about right. I'll read it more closely and give it more thought. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] digested: printing presses, cmyk, tiff + pdf...
I think I agree with 99% of what you wrote. Clarifications/quibbles: (wait. Nevermind. Probably about 75%) On Fri, 27 Mar 2009, peter sikking wrote: 4) tiff or pdf? it is just a transport method. it is a strategic choice what to do first/better/at all. PDF isn't really appropriate for raster images, but printers know how to deal with them and some expect it. 1) all creative work in GIMP is in rgb. Is currently? Or should be? I can agree that it is currently, but it should allow CMYK editing. 2) when it is one of those times (plural) to work on the printing press mastering of this file, then pull the press projection over the image window. now you can see the plates (similar to layers) and work on each or combinations. This would make a very useful feature, but it must accompany full CMYK editing. CMKYGO can easily be also a default. Probably not, for a few reasons. Hexachrome(R) is patent-encumbered, for starters. 4) flip the press projection up again and continue to work on the creative part. flip the press projection down again and the plates are updated from the image changes. with previous plate modifications applied on top. Ah. This is needlessly complicated and would require two versions of the same image. Remember--rich black is a necessary CMYK color and cannot be represented in RGB. Trapping images requires CMYK and the trapped image cannot be represented in RGB. Changes to one image cannot be automatically transferred to the other without complicated transforms. This is far more than just RGB CMYK. This would involve things like edge detection and intelligent algorithms to determine when a boundary between two colors in one version of the image has shifted and thus requires a change to the other version. To put it simply, this solution would require probably twice as much work as CMYK editing would. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] digested: printing presses, cmyk, tiff + pdf...
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Robert Krawitz wrote: I think the case of text black is a partial, qualified exception -- but it's arguable that it has any bearing on RGB vs. CMYK. It really means the darkest, sharpest black that can be produced regardless of rendering device. It could just as well be represented as RGB+K, or simply as a separate layer. I'd argue that it's actually a creative choice, though. It doesn't necessarily mean the darkest, but it does mean the sharpest. And you're right that it could essentially be represented as RGB+K. Perhaps prepress tasks would better be implemented as a plugin (or set of plugins)? It's hard for me to see how trapping (for example) would make any sense at all as part of the core, but as a plugin it would make perfect sense. I know Adobe at least used to sell a product called TrapWise whose purpose in life was to do nothing but trapping. Automatic trapping is actually not a bad idea for a plugin. You could have things like trap along path or edge detection trapping (which I used as an example of something that would be prohibitively expensive in an interactive mode, but in one-time mode wouldn't be an issue). It would, in general, be a very dumb plugin, but some simple jobs don't need intelligent algorithms to determine that we don't need the red eye effect trapped but that the magenta hankerchief in the suit pocket does need to be, just to trap the edge of the photo that got torn and you're outlining with a black border. I don't know if it had a Photoshop plugin component or not. TrapWise began with Aldus and was subsequently acquired by Adobe. TrapWise is now owned by Kodak, who describe it thus[*]: ``TRAPWISE's streamlined workflow, intelligent trapping engine and flexible productivity tools combine to give you precision trapping whenever and wherever you need it.'' As I suggested in the other message, sophisticated automated trapping is probably going to be more difficult than simply implementing CMYK editing, since you're going to have to implement many of the same features--CMYK editing (batch, not interactive, granted), colorspace conversion, alterations to the XCF file format--plus a bunch of other features like advanced edge detection and an evaluation system to determine what needs to be trapped and what does not. There's a reason why TrapWise was pulling in $7000 a copy in 2001 when CS2 Premium was only $1200. [*] http://graphics1.kodak.com/us/product/workflow_data_storage/production_planning/trapwise/default.htm -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] digested: printing presses, cmyk, tiff + pdf...
On Fri, 27 Mar 2009, peter sikking wrote: I think the case of text black is a partial, qualified exception -- I have a hard time spotting what you mean. this is troubling because I will have to understand the everything to be able to drive the Ui side of the solution. Here, this may help: http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0001OR Specifically, the comparison of 4-color and single color here: http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/images/0001OS-1068.jpg To ensure that text is readable, it must be printed as a single color, otherwise the grit may render the text unreadable. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] digested: printing presses, cmyk, tiff + pdf...
On Fri, 27 Mar 2009, peter sikking wrote: OK, that part I already got before I wrote my digest. But Robert points this out to show that there is a (minor) spanner in the works. where's the spanner? There are two spanners: one in favor of CMYK and one against. I'm not sure which Robert means, since he alludes to both in his message. In favor of CMYK, text black must be implemented as a single color and can only appear on a single plate. Against CMYK, regardless of what system you use, text black is going to be a spot color, so it could just as easily be RGB+K, CMYK+K, LAB+K, or even YIQ+K. Does this answer your question or should I respond when I've had more sleep? -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] digested: printing presses, cmyk, tiff + pdf...
On Fri, 27 Mar 2009, peter sikking wrote: the plan as you can see in my conclusions does not hardwire a cmyk system, it uses (stolen from pippin) an everything is spot aka a-plate-is-a-plate system where the separation is free configurable, and cmyk and cmy+k are standard configurations. so we are not snookered by this. That's good. Some other solutions might not work that way, so clarifying this point they way we just did is probably a Good Thing. I was also thinking about CMYKOG, and I may have been a little glib in my dismissal of it. CMYKOG is essentially a special type of 6-color, which is not patent-encumbered, to the best of my knowledge. There's certainly no reason why the user can't have Hexachrome(R) if they install proper add-ons, but it couldn't ship with GIMP as long as it has a libre license. After all, there's a way to get PMS to work with Scribus (and I believe you can use this to get approximations in GIMP as well): http://wiki.scribus.net/index.php/Scribus_and_Pantone_colors -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] PLEASE REMOVE ME
When you send unsubscribe requests to an email list, it lands in the mailboxes of hundreds of people who can't unsubscribe you. I can't unsubscribe you. Try the stuff below. Clip 'n' save these instructions for future reference. =8=Cut-Here=8= How To Unsubscribe From Any Email List 1. Look at the messages you've been getting on the list. Do they have how to unsubscribe messages near the end, or an email address to use in a List-Unsubscribe: header at the top? If so, follow those instructions. 2. Most lists these days, including all lists hosted by the big two (Yahoo! Groups and Topica), have an -unsubscribe alias for this purpose. For example, if you're on the WHATEVER list, either whatever-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com or whatever-unsubscr...@topica.com would be the right address to use. (For the rest of this memo, let's assume that the WHATEVER list is at example.com -- that is, the alias is whate...@example.com. If the list has a name like WHATEVER-L, you might try steps 6 and 7 first.) 3. Otherwise, first send a request to the -request alias. For our example, that would be whatever-requ...@example.com. This is often read by a human being, so write accordingly. In theory, all email lists are supposed to implement this address (though Yahoo! Groups does not). 4. If you get no response from the above, send mail to the majordomo alias. That's majord...@example.com for our example. If the list is administered by the majordomo software, you'll get instructions for unsubscribing mailed back to you. 5. If you get no response, send mail to the owner- alias. For our example, owner-whate...@example.com. This should go to the human who administers the list. 6. If you get no response, send mail to LISTSERV. For our example, that address would be lists...@example.com. The text of your message should be SIGNOFF WHATEVER. 7. If you get no response, send mail to the listproc alias. For our example, that address would be listp...@example.com. The text of your message should be unsubscribe WHATEVER. 8. If you get no response, send mail to the site postmaster. For our example, that address is postmas...@example.com. Mention that you tried the previous five steps, to no avail. 9. If you get no response, send mail to root. Our example address is r...@example.com. Mention that you tried the previous six steps, to no avail. 10. If -- and only if -- all the above fail, send a message to the list itself. Make it courteous, particularly since the vast majority of the people reading it can't do a thing about it. The message should say something like, How do I get off this list?, not UNSUBSCRIBE. Try to avoid setting off a bunch of me too messages by saying something like, Please don't chime in with a bunch of 'I want to unsubscribe too' messages. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Wanted: Gimp Modification for Kids Product
On Wed, 27 May 2009, Simon Budig wrote: Jackson Tam (j...@sditech.com) wrote: We want to simplify things so that a kid could : Actually you might want to have a look at tuxpaint, which seems to have the same target audience as you. I'm not sure about TuxPaint, but there are a lot of similar graphics programs out there. Furthermore, you can - remove just about all the tools from the toolbox. - launch it via a command like `gimp frames.xcf` which would load an image with the frames as separate layers. - add a plugin that places a resized SVG as a border on top of the image. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] lgm talk, part 2...
On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, peter sikking wrote: guys, the second part of my lgm talk is blogged now: http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/2009/06/gimp-squaring-cmyk-circle.html enjoy, I do appreciate your work on this, but I have to say that I still have some concerns. I have to go somewhere, so I haven't read evreything yet, but I'd like to make this point. Converting from CMYK to RGB and vice versa are not lossless by a long shot. This is by necessity and the fact that GEGL is non-destructive has nothing to do with it, since large porions of image data will have to be tossed when converting. The gamut for RGB is far larger in the bright colors, and CMYK can produce effects that cannot be produced in RGB. See, for example: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2009/06/expanding-the-gamut-sharp-to-increase-color-range-of-lcds.ars I am very concerned that your overlay concept would simply degrade the image over successive conversions. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] The name Gimp
Well, if we're going to do this discussion, I think I'll just unsubscribe for a while. Let me know when you guys decide to keep the name GIMP. Or better yet, don't. -- | Andrew A. Gill To ensure continued quality of service, | |this e-mail is being monitored by the NSA | | superlu...@frontiernet.net http://www.needsfoodbadly.com | -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
