Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
the Mormon doctrine (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement for the sins of the world. DAVEH: As I understand it, the atonement took place in the Garden of Gethsemane, and was finalized (sealed, so to speak) by Jesus' death on the cross. I'm certainly not an authority on this topic, nor am I probably able to explain the atonement in the authoritative detail you are requesting. As I see it, Jesus suffered greatly in the Garden of Gethsemane. Why? I believe it was because he was bearing the burden of our sins at that timein effect, taking upon himself our sins. Such suffering caused him to bleed from his pores. At the Last Supper, he explained to his Disciples that his blood would be shed.. [Mk 14:23] And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. [24] And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. ..and this was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane shortly after the Last Supper. The crucification itself brought him much pain and suffering as well, but interestingly the Bible makes no mention of him shedding blood on the cross until after his death, when his body was lanced with a spear. I believe the pain he suffered on the cross was caused by the physical torture to which he was subjected by being nailed to that cross, and then hung there in a manner designed to bring great suffering and pain, in contrast to the pain he suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane which was caused by what I believe was the effect of taking our sins upon himself. What do you believe brought enough pain to Jesus that it caused him to bleed from every pore in the Garden, John? In order for the atonement to be functional..yikes, that is probably not the best word to describe it, but I cannot think of a more appropriate term at the moment.. for each of us, Jesus had to provide a way for us to be resurrected. Without the resurrection, no atoning sacrifice would benefit those who are bound by (physical) death. Jesus was the only person who could accomplish the resurrection, and for that to happen, he had to die. The pain he suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane was not sufficient to bring death, but that which he experienced on the cross was more than adequate. Nobody could kill Jesus had he not been willing to die. Jesus had the power to call angels to his side to prevent his death there, but in lieu of that..the cross provided the means to bring about his physical death. So, the cross was the tool used by Jesus' enemies to kill him. He rose from the tomb on the 3rd day, which then made it possible for all to be resurrected. This gift of grace was freely given to all mortals, who had inherited physical death from Adam. Just as all who are born on this earth have no control (or option) as to whether or not they will die, Jesus overcame that obstacle for us. Had we not been able to overcome physical death, the need for the atonement would have been a non-issue. Since by virtue of the Lord's resurrection all will be resurrected, it then became possible for the atonement to be available for those who desire it. And as I've mentioned before, those who desire to overcome spiritual death need only to accept and love the Lord by keeping his commandments. Now the question becomes why do we need the atonement at all? If all are to be resurrected, what advantage is there for an atonement? That is where we need to consider the effect spiritual death has upon us. As I've defined it before, spiritual death happens when we are separated from God. Effectively, the further we are from the love of the Lord, the deeper in hell we reside, so to speak. In order to overcome that form of hell (and there are several), those who love the Lord seek to become one with him. To do that, we need to become perfect as God is perfect. Since God is without sin, and we are sinnersthat seems like an impossibility. However, by virtue of the atonement of our Redeemer, those who accept Jesus as their Savior can have their sins remitted, and hence become perfect (complete) as God is perfect.and become closer to and one with our Heavenly Father and Jesus. As I suggested before, without the possibility of a resurrection, the atonement would be of little effect, as physical death would confine us to hell. This explanation may be a bit brief, if not a little awkward..but I hope it answers your question, John. have I stumbled onto something of a difficulty for our Mormon friends? DAVEH: I don't see why you would think such, John. Evidence of the apostasy was already showing itself at the time the NT was being written, as Acts 20 suggested [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock ..and Paul affirmed in his epistle to the Galatians. [1:6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
I see power in the cross. You see defeat. DAVEH: The power of the cross as I see it was the ability of it to actually bring death to Jesus. That is not to say that I don't think Jesus had any power over the cross to prevent his death from occurring on it. Quite the contrary.I think Jesus could easily have avoided being nailed to the cross, as he could have called legions of angels to protect him from his enemies. But...that would not have permitted the plan of salvation to proceed as it had been planned from before the foundations of the world. You are right thoughI do not view the cross as having any good power at all. It was a tool of the enemies of Jesus, and he allowed himself to be subjected to it in order to become the perfect sacrifice. The power of Jesus is in his resurrection which brought life, not in the cross which brought death. The cross killed Jesus just as it killed those who were nailed to it before, since and at the same time. Nowyou have said that I view the cross as defeating Jesus. I don't perceive it that way at all. What temporary victory the enemies of Jesus may have felt by his death on the cross was certainly reversed by his subsequent resurrection. But his resurrection did not occur on the cross. From the time Jesus died on the cross and was subsequently resurrected on the 3rd day thereafter, Jesus experienced hell. By the time Jesus was resurrected, the cross was old history, so to speak. Do you think the cross had any power to resurrect Jesus? I'd be surprised if you do, DavidM. SO.why do you suggest the cross has any power? I view the cross as a symbol of death, whether it is the death of people buried in a cemetery or the cross worn by Christians or the cross that adorns Christian edifices which symbolizes the death of Jesus. It is a symbol of death, which I perceived you to say a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. ..which doesn't seem to different from what I said. I realize that many Christians use the cross to symbolize Jesus, effectively their view of his power over the cross. IF he had been stoned, would those same Christians be wearing a symbol of a stone around their neck, or adorning their edifices? Or, what if Jesus had been killed by a spearsay the spear that was used to lance his skin to make sure he was dead, had the cross not killed him? Would those same Christians then use a spear as their symbol? Just where does the power of Christ residein the device (whether it be a stone, spear or cross) used to kill him, or in his innate power as God? Do you believe Mary or any of the Primitive Christians used the cross as a symbol in the same way many do today? If not, then why do some Christians today feel differently than did the Primitive Christians? David Miller wrote: David Miller wrote: ... a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. Dave Hansen wrote: When I suggested similar, it brought a lot of chastisement. Why do you suppose the difference? Context. I don't think you understand the value of the cross. You raised its issue from skepticism concerning what value the symbol had. I raised the issue from using this symbol to illustrate the victory that Jesus wrought in the cross. I see power in the cross. You see defeat. Is this not true? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] atta boy Canadians]
DAVEH: Naw Terry..no prairie dogs in Western Oregon. But, we've been able to combine two popular sports that may attract you instead..out here we just shoot fish in a barrel. ;-) Terry Clifton wrote: My wife is from Washington state. We have lived in cold weather before, but you find me a prairie dog town in Oregon and we might change our minds. We have been through 48 states and in my memory, oregon was the most beautiful of all. Terry Dave wrote: DAVEH: Unless you've experienced the Montana or Wyoming winters, you might want to take a peek at Oregon before making such a major error of judgment, Terry! =-O Terry Clifton wrote: www.cliftoncustomrifles.com Right now, we have the place up for sale. If we get our price, we intend to move to Montana or Wyoming and spend our last days shooting prairie dogs and coyotes. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets
I think you named the apostles correctly. It appears that your list of names of the others goes down hill from there. You did not even mention Joseph Smith. Certainly he was as much a (False) prophet as Calvin and more influential than any of the liberals you chose to honor. You might want to get a good grip on reality and rethink this. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Within the church , God has placed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teacher. There collective ministries are given a threefold purpose, but the specifics of each functionary is unique and even exclusive. The apostles and prophets are a case in point. They are a part of those named in Eph 4:11 ff while , at the same time, considered apart from the remaining categories (evangelists, pastors and teachers). It is the apostles and prophets who are the foundation of the household of God (Eph 2:20.) Because they are named as the foundation of the Church, we can be confident that their ministries compliment each other. The apostles are given an identify -- the 12 -- while, in fact, their numbers include the original 12, Matthias, Paul, Barnabas, James the brother of Jesus, and arguably Apollos, Silvanus and Titus. With this group of men, we have the writings of all NT scripture except the historical record of Luke (Luke/Acts). The apostles were charged with world mission, binding and loosing and the performace of miracles as an extension (in the Spirit) of who they were. All the recorded miracles of the NT scripture are performed by Jesus or one of the apostles. Their counterpart is the prophet. Whereas the apostles were given to the First Church, the prophets continue with the church throughout the ages. It is not the prophets work to continue the addition of scripture. That work was completed with the apostles. The scriptures were finished with the passing of the apostles. In time, the Church Catholic was challenged to identify those scriptures and, with the providential consideration of God, the Bible was the result. The prophet, named as a part of the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20) is, in reality, those we commonly refer to as theologian. He is the one who continues the work of the apostle as he illuminates the message, keeping the biblical message at center stage and fresh for each new era within the church. People like Athanasuius, Eusebias, Origen, Tertullian, Calvin, Luther, Barth are prophets to the Church Catholic while others, less catholic in function, add to this illuminary function, men like Wesley, Torrance, NT Wright, and, finally, those who have read and are acquainted with the above and have a good working knowledge of the written word, people like Debbie Sawczak, Bill Taylor, Victor Shepherd, Jon Hughs and the like. It is the prophet that keeps the word alive and helps to keep us centered on the Christ. The evangelist, pastor and teacher benefit from these prophets and give their (the prophets) conributions meaning to those within the church who have a better understanding of the common man and his language. And, so , the church at all levels is benefited, edified, regenerated with the living word without adding more and more scripture and bigger and better phenom. A truly divine arrangement. jd -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry
In a message dated 12/26/2005 11:52:23 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Add to this the fact that JS was himself a mason of at least the 32nd degree, Blainerb: I assure you there are not anywhere near 32 degrees in Mormon temple ceremonies. There are NO degrees in the ceremonies. :) There are three degrees of glory in the resurrection, in LDS theology, could this be whatLance was referring to? In a message dated 12/26/2005 5:14:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:..are one and the same 'spirit'. The 'degrees' in Mormonism correspond tothe 'degrees' in freemasonry. DANGEROUS STUFF!There is no provable relationship. If there was, you would do more thanmake a blanket statement.Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry
I am not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he joined the Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they might offer in times of duress--as you are probably aware, he was arrested on false charges many times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and abused both physically and verballya lot of times by antis of his day. But I am sure if there is any official commentary from Church authorities, Kevin would know where it would be found. Especially if it could be used against the Church. :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/26/2005 10:08:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion regarding freemasonary? jd -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/26/2005 5:14:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..are one and the same 'spirit'. The 'degrees' in Mormonism correspond to the 'degrees' in freemasonry. DANGEROUS STUFF! There is no provable relationship. If there was, you would do more than make a blanket statement. Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
I appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden much as I sweat out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to have my chest cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein from my leg and repaired the hoses feeding my heart. It is the waiting for something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be avoided. It is apprehension of what is to come. There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison. I would rather be killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester, but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of every human on Himself. The apprehension of a perfectly innocent person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin possible would be something you or I cannot possibly comprehend. He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin. He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the flogging, would have been much bloodier. A whip was used which had multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of flesh. Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before they could be nailed to the cross. Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage cannot move, and so you cannot breath. In order to breath, you must push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms. This is hard to do when any pressure on your feet causes pain because of the spike that nailed them to the cross. So the victim alternates, first breathing, then suffocating, first supporting himself with his legs, then hanging from his arms, no relief, even for a moment. The two thieves were finally suffocated when the soldiers took a mallet and crushed their legs, ending their ability to breath. With Jesus it was different. Prophecy said that not a bone would be broken and His legs were never hit with the mallet. At the moment He cried out, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me", He paid the price for our sins. Up until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done. When He had done this, He gave up the ghost. No soldier took His life. He laid it down, for you and for me. When the soldier plunged the spear into His side, it would have lacerated the liver, and any blood left in His body would have been almost completely drained from it. Christ paid the ultimate price for my sins on that cross. His lifeless body was taken down from it. Just a final thought: The Bible I use says that every saved person is part of a royal priesthood. Jesus our Lord is high priests, and every follower of His is one of His priests. That tells me that the first black priest was the Etheopean eunuch that Phillip Baptized long before 1978. I hope you can see this. Terry the Mormon doctrine (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement for the sins of the world. DAVEH: As I understand it, the atonement took place in the Garden of Gethsemane, and was finalized (sealed, so to speak) by Jesus' death on the cross. I'm certainly not an authority on this topic, nor am I probably able to explain the atonement in the authoritative detail you are requesting. As I see it, Jesus suffered greatly in the Garden of Gethsemane. Why? I believe it was because he was bearing the burden of our sins at that timein effect, taking upon himself our sins. Such suffering caused him to bleed from his pores. At the Last Supper, he explained to his Disciples that his blood would be shed.. [Mk 14:23] And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. [24] And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. ..and this was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane shortly after the Last Supper. The crucification itself brought him much pain and suffering as well, but interestingly the Bible makes no mention of him shedding blood on the cross until after his death, when his body was lanced with a spear. I believe the pain he suffered on the cross was caused by the physical torture to which he was subjected by being nailed to that cross, and then hung there in a manner designed to bring great suffering and pain, in contrast to the pain he suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane which was caused by what I believe was the effect of taking our sins upon himself. What do you believe brought enough pain to Jesus that it
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry
In a message dated 12/26/2005 11:52:23 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine, I beg to differ. I have read two books, side by side, one of the Mormon temple endowment, and one of Freemasonry, and the similarities are unmistakable, from the the clothing and anointing to the secret grips, tokens, and penalties. Add to this the fact that JS was himself a mason of at least the 32nd degree, and it is quite obvious that JS adopted and adapted the Freemason ceremonies for his own use in the LDS temple endowments. Blainerb: I don't think the LDS Church has ever denied what you are saying, so it seems unnecessary to even point it out. The similarities are just that, however, and there are other aspects of the LDS ceremonies that are highly dissimilar.Your conclusions thatJS just went in and adapted/borrowed stuff seems a little rash, it seems to me. A charitable attitude towards JS and Mormons in general would suggest to me that his claims to have received the temple ceremonies by revelation should be given first priority. As in all dreams and other revelations, the Lord often makes use of symbols and etc familiar to the recipient-- I see nothing amiss in this happening with regards to JS's revelations, whether regarding temple ceremonies or otherwise. The Key word here is CHARITY.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry
In a message dated 12/26/2005 11:52:23 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lets add to this some new information...the Freemasons, in their ceremonies, pay homage to several Egyptian gods. Now, you have told us that JS writes in the PoGP that one of hte names of god is Amun, or Ammon, an Egyptian god. See the siilarity. I am anxious to research if JS got that name fromt he pages fromt eh book of the dead he purchased and pretended to translate as the Book of Abraham, or if he learned it in his Masonic lodge. Blainerb: I simply stated that some words from the language of Adam had been revealed to Joseph Smith, among them the word Ahman, for God the Father. In pointing out the similarities between that word and some Egyptian names for deity, I was suggesting that perhaps the Egyptianshad throughtime corrupted the concept of God, but had retained the name to some extent. It is a well known fact that languages change, but still retain words or similar words to the original. An example is the Algonquin Indian word for father--Abba. The same word in Hebrew has the same meaning. I am not an expert on languages, but it seems pretty clear there had to be a linguistic/cultural sameness at some point in time. Again, CHARITYmight help you reach different conclusionsfrom the ones you draw.
Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
Well JD the tone of your email was negative so I read it as something other than a compliment along with the fact that most of the time cute little rich girls are spoiled pagans. Do you know of one cute little rich girl celebrity who is a "steadfast" believer in the Lord Jesus Christ? If not then this is not a description of Linda. jt. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 05:06:40 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nothing wrong with being a cute little rich girl, Judy. You have fashioned an argument for no good reason. I do not need lessons on wealth and happiness. The contrast between her young life in Oregon and the life she now has as a successful doctor's wife has to be remarkable. And it my understanding that she rather enjoys her present circumstance. You made too much of my second paragraph below. jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, what's this "cute little rich girl" stuff? Haven't you read what Linda has been writing all these years. She has hardly had a "cute little rich girl" life. Anyway money does not make anyone happy. Our daughter is married to someone who makes big bucks but is proving tobe spiritually, emotionally, and morally desolate. Ask her if "rich is where it is at?" She is cute and so are our three grandaughters but it is not enough. Hurting ppl hurt other people and seldom hold themselves responsible. judyt On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 23:47:25 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't consider you as one who is qualified to discuss anything concerning the condition of the heart. You will disagree, of course, but you have shown a distinct harshness towards those who disagree with you, who are not of the same poltitical party, who do not share the same social standing (i.e. the poor blacks in N.O.) . Still, at other times, you almost seem human. Your account of the home in Oregon perhaps explains why you enjoy, so much, being a cute little rich girl. jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You and your ilk cant tell the difference between war heroes and murderers. Your loss. What a pitiful state of mind. What an empty heart. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:03 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people real women marry murderers?? On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 13:51:41 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has he ever killed anyone from a mile and half away? -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Its great to know there are some real men in Canada, in spite of the wimps that run the P.C. government. (In fact, my husband was born on a US AF base in Newfoundland. J ) iz Sniping with the .50 BMG in Afghanistan New long-distance record set! (The following is from the Canadian newspaper National Post. The shooters were using .50 BMG rifles that had Lilja barrels on them outfitted with Nightforce 5.5-22x NXS scopes.) OTTAWA BLOCKS U.S. EFFORT TO HONOUR OUR SNIPERS: Canadian snipers pose with their 50-calibre rifle at base camp in Kandahar. Five of the men, whose names the military withheld for security reasons, were nominated for Bronze Stars by the U.S. for their prowess in fighting near Gardez. The sixth joined the unit later in the war. Wait due to 'Canadian protocol'A kill from 2,430 metres By Michael Smith and Chris WattieNational Post The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defence officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned. The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon of the United States Army's 187th "Rakkasan" brigade last month, clearing out
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Terry, Well said. The wages of sin is death, and since Jesus paid the price for our sins, it is his death that paid that price...not the stress He felt in Gethsemene, as great as it was. If that were so, the billions of animals that have been sacrificed by the Jews in in ages past for thier sins would not have been killed...the people could have just transferred their sin to them and then let them go...but there is no substitutionary atonement in that. To be substitutionary the sacrificial lamb MUST suffer the penalty that is due the sinner. Death. On the cross our Lord uttered the word tetelestai. It is finished (http://www.bible.org/qa.asp?topic_id=30qa_id=28). At that moment our debt was paid. He did not say that in the garden, because he did not pay the debt in the garden. The cross is a symbol of His death, yes, but it was His death on that cross that paid the price we could never pay. The cross is a symbol of the good news of our forgiven sins. The cross IS used in the Bible as a symbol by Jesus and the apostles...extensively. So, the question remains, who would make up such a lie that He atoned for our sins in the Garden? Maybe the same one that lied to Eve in the Garden? Perry From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas! Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 08:33:36 -0600 I appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden much as I sweat out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to have my chest cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein from my leg and repaired the hoses feeding my heart. It is the waiting for something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be avoided. It is apprehension of what is to come. There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison. I would rather be killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester, but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of every human on Himself. The apprehension of a perfectly innocent person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin possible would be something you or I cannot possibly comprehend. He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin. He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the flogging, would have been much bloodier. A whip was used which had multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of flesh. Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before they could be nailed to the cross. Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage cannot move, and so you cannot breath. In order to breath, you must push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms. This is hard to do when any pressure on your feet causes pain because of the spike that nailed them to the cross. So the victim alternates, first breathing, then suffocating, first supporting himself with his legs, then hanging from his arms, no relief, even for a moment. The two thieves were finally suffocated when the soldiers took a mallet and crushed their legs, ending their ability to breath. With Jesus it was different. Prophecy said that not a bone would be broken and His legs were never hit with the mallet. At the moment He cried out, *My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me, *He paid the price for our sins. Up until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done. When He had done this, He gave up the ghost. No soldier took His life. He laid it down, for you and for me. When the soldier plunged the spear into His side, it would have lacerated the liver, and any blood left in His body would have been almost completely drained from it. Christ paid the ultimate price for my sins on that cross. His lifeless body was taken down from it. Just a final thought: The Bible I use says that every saved person is part of a royal priesthood. Jesus our Lord is high priests, and every follower of His is one of His priests. That tells me that the first black priest was the Etheopean eunuch that Phillip Baptized long before 1978. I hope you can see this. Terry *the Mormon doctrine (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement for the sins of the world.* DAVEH: As I understand it, the atonement took place in the
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry
I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:06:14 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he joined the Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they might offer in times of duress--as you are probably aware, he was arrested on false charges many times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and abused both physically and verballya lot of times by antis of his day. But I am sure if there is any official commentary from Church authorities, Kevin would know where it would be found. Especially if it could be used against the Church. :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/26/2005 10:08:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion regarding freemasonary? jd From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/26/2005 5:14:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..are one and the same 'spirit'. The 'degrees' in Mormonism correspond to the 'degrees' in freemasonry. DANGEROUS STUFF! There is no provable relationship. If there was, you would do more than make a blanket statement. Blainerb judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets
You surprised me. J Smith was not an illuminary of the biblcial scriptures. He and Calvin are worlds apart. And Calvin's work certainly kept The Discussion alive for the established and Christian church. If you believe that one can be wrongabout something and remain connected to Christ, then you can see why all of those mentioned, with their varying points of view, can be named. jd -- Original message -- From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think you named the apostles correctly. It appears that your list of names of the others goes down hill from there. You did not even mention Joseph Smith. Certainly he was as much a (False) prophet as Calvin and more influential than any of the liberals you chose to honor. You might want to get a good grip on reality and rethink this.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Within the church , God has placed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teacher. There collective ministries are given a threefold purpose, but the specifics of each functionary is unique and even exclusive. The apostles and prophets are a case in point. They are a part of those na med in Eph 4:11 ff while , at the same time, considered apart from the remaining categories (evangelists, pastors and teachers). It is the apostles and prophets who are the foundation of the "household of God" (Eph 2:20.) Because they are named as the foundation of the Church, we can be confident that their ministries compliment each other. The apostles are given an identify -- the "12" -- while, in fact, their numbers include the original 12, Matthias, Paul, Barnabas, James the brother of Jesus, and arguably Apollos, Silvanus and Titus. With this group of men, we have the writings of all NT scripture except the historical record of Luke (Luke/Acts). The apostles were charged with world mission, binding and loosing and the performace of miracles as an extension (in the Spirit) of who they were. All the recorded miracles of the NT scripture are performed by Jesus or one of the apostles. Their counterpart is the prophet. Whereas the apostles were given to the First Church, the prophets continue with the church throughout the ages. It is not the prophets work to continue the addition of scripture. That work was completed with the apostles. The scriptures were finished with the passing of the apostles. In time, the Church Catholic was challenged to identify those scriptures and, with the providential consideration of God, the Bible was the result. The prophet, named as a part of the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20) is, in reality, those we commonly refer to as "theologian." He is the one who continues the work of the apostle as he illuminates the message, keeping the biblical message at center stage and fresh for each new era within the church. People like Atha nasuius, Eusebias, Origen, Tertullian, Calvin, Luther, Barth are prophets to the Church Catholic while others, less catholic in function, add to this illuminary function, men like Wesley, Torrance, NT Wright, and, finally, those who have read and are acquainted with the above and have a good working knowledge of the written word, people like Debbie Sawczak, Bill Taylor, Victor Shepherd, Jon Hughs and the like. It is the prophet that keeps the word alive and helps to keep us centered on the Christ. The evangelist, pastor and teacher benefit from these prophets and give their (the prophets) conributions meaning to those within the church who have a better understanding of the common man and his language. And, so , the church at all levels is benefited, edified, regenerated with the living word without adding more and more scripture and bigge r and better phenom. A truly divine arrangement. jd -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] The cross of Christ
The power of the cross is found in the "turn the other cheek" doctrine of Christ. Jesus said that his disciples must take up their cross and follow him. It is the doctrine of self denial, illustrated most perfectly by Jesus going to the cross to die for us. Without the cross, you have just another religion. It is the doctrine of the cross and its power to bring salvation that makes Christianity unique. In my opinion, not understanding the cross and the power of the cross is a very serious error. An apprehension of the crossis so important that it truly makes a difference between those who are born from above and those who are not. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: Dave To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 3:47 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas! I see power in the cross. You see defeat.DAVEH: The power of the cross as I see it was the ability of it to actually bring death to Jesus. That is not to say that I don't think Jesus had any power over the cross to prevent his death from occurring on it. Quite the contrary.I think Jesus could easily have avoided being nailed to the cross, as he could have called legions of angels to protect him from his enemies. But...that would not have permitted the plan of salvation to proceed as it had been planned from before the foundations of the world. You are right thoughI do not view the cross as having any good power at all. It was a tool of the enemies of Jesus, and he allowed himself to be subjected to it in order to become the perfect sacrifice. The power of Jesus is in his resurrection which brought life, not in the cross which brought death. The cross killed Jesus just as it killed those who were nailed to it before, since and at the same time. Nowyou have said that I view the cross as defeating Jesus. I don't perceive it that way at all. What temporary victory the enemies of Jesus may have felt by his death on the cross was certainly reversed by his subsequent resurrection. But his resurrection did not occur on the cross. From the time Jesus died on the cross and was subsequently resurrected on the 3rd day thereafter, Jesus experienced hell. By the time Jesus was resurrected, the cross was old history, so to speak. Do you think the cross had any power to resurrect Jesus? I'd be surprised if you do, DavidM. SO.why do you suggest the cross has any power? I view the cross as a symbol of death, whether it is the death of people buried in a cemetery or the cross worn by Christians or the cross that adorns Christian edifices which symbolizes the death of Jesus. It is a symbol of death, which I perceived you to say a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ...which doesn't seem to different from what I said. I realize that many Christians use the cross to symbolize Jesus, effectively their view of his power over the cross. IF he had been stoned, would those same Christians be wearing a symbol of a stone around their neck, or adorning their edifices? Or, what if Jesus had been killed by a spearsay the spear that was used to lance his skin to make sure he was dead, had the cross not killed him? Would those same Christians then use a spear as their symbol? Just where does the power of Christ residein the device (whether it be a stone, spear or cross) used to kill him, or in his innate power as God? Do you believe Mary or any of the Primitive Christians used the cross as a symbol in the same way many do today? If not, then why do some Christians today feel differently than did the Primitive Christians?David Miller wrote: David Miller wrote: ... a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. Dave Hansen wrote: When I suggested similar, it brought a lot of chastisement. Why do you suppose the difference? Context. I don't think you understand the value of the cross. You raised its issue from skepticism concerning what value the symbol had. I raised the issue from using this symbol to illustrate the victory that Jesus wrought in the cross. I see power in the cross. You see defeat. Is this not true? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets
And to compare the range of influence of J Smith with any on the list is spurious, at best. There is a big difference between one who creates a "new religion" and one who works within given boundaries to explain and definition a religion. J Smith has NO INFLUENCE outside his religion. Many on my list do. jd -- Original message -- From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think you named the apostles correctly. It appears that your list of names of the others goes down hill from there. You did not even mention Joseph Smith. Certainly he was as much a (False) prophet as Calvin and more influential than any of the liberals you chose to honor. You might want to get a good grip on reality and rethink this.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Within the church , God has placed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teacher. There collective ministries are given a threefold purpose, but the specifics of each functionary is unique and even exclusive. The apostles and prophets are a case in point. They are a part of those na med in Eph 4:11 ff while , at the same time, considered apart from the remaining categories (evangelists, pastors and teachers). It is the apostles and prophets who are the foundation of the "household of God" (Eph 2:20.) Because they are named as the foundation of the Church, we can be confident that their ministries compliment each other. The apostles are given an identify -- the "12" -- while, in fact, their numbers include the original 12, Matthias, Paul, Barnabas, James the brother of Jesus, and arguably Apollos, Silvanus and Titus. With this group of men, we have the writings of all NT scripture except the historical record of Luke (Luke/Acts). The apostles were charged with world mission, binding and loosing and the performace of miracles as an extension (in the Spirit) of who they were. All the recorded miracles of the NT scripture are performed by Jesus or one of the apostles. Their counterpart is the prophet. Whereas the apostles were given to the First Church, the prophets continue with the church throughout the ages. It is not the prophets work to continue the addition of scripture. That work was completed with the apostles. The scriptures were finished with the passing of the apostles. In time, the Church Catholic was challenged to identify those scriptures and, with the providential consideration of God, the Bible was the result. The prophet, named as a part of the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20) is, in reality, those we commonly refer to as "theologian." He is the one who continues the work of the apostle as he illuminates the message, keeping the biblical message at center stage and fresh for each new era within the church. People like Atha nasuius, Eusebias, Origen, Tertullian, Calvin, Luther, Barth are prophets to the Church Catholic while others, less catholic in function, add to this illuminary function, men like Wesley, Torrance, NT Wright, and, finally, those who have read and are acquainted with the above and have a good working knowledge of the written word, people like Debbie Sawczak, Bill Taylor, Victor Shepherd, Jon Hughs and the like. It is the prophet that keeps the word alive and helps to keep us centered on the Christ. The evangelist, pastor and teacher benefit from these prophets and give their (the prophets) conributions meaning to those within the church who have a better understanding of the common man and his language. And, so , the church at all levels is benefited, edified, regenerated with the living word without adding more and more scripture and bigge r and better phenom. A truly divine arrangement. jd -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
Back to your old tactics of adding words and meaning to my post. If you cannot accept my explanation of what I wrote AND, at the same time, feel the need to add wording to the post, I see no point in continuing the discussion. jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well JD the tone of your email was negative so I read it as something other than a compliment along with the fact that most of the time cute little rich girls are spoiled pagans. Do you know of one cute little rich girl celebrity who is a steadfast believer in the Lord Jesus Christ? If not then this is not a description of Linda. jt. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 05:06:40 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nothing wrong with being a cute little rich girl, Judy. You have fashioned an argument for no good reason. I do not need lessons on wealth and happiness. The contrast between her young life in Oregon and the life she now has as a successful doctor's wife has to be remarkable. And it my understanding that she rather enjoys her present circumstance. You made too much of my second paragraph below. jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, what's this cute little rich girl stuff? Haven't you read what Linda has been writing all these years. She has hardly had a cute little rich girl life. Anyway money does not make anyone happy. Our daughter is married to someone who makes big bucks but is proving to be spiritually, emotionally, and morally desolate. Ask her if rich is where it is at? She is cute and so are our three grandaughters but it is not enough. Hurting ppl hurt other people and seldom hold themselves responsible. judyt On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 23:47:25 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't consider you as one who is qualified to discuss anything concerning the condition of the heart. You will disagree, of course, but you have shown a distinct harshness towards those who disagree with you, who are not of the same poltitical party, who do not share the same social standing (i.e. the poor blacks in N.O.) . Still, at other times, you almost seem human. Your account of the home in Oregon perhaps explains why you enjoy, so much, being a cute little rich girl. jd -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] You and your ilk cant tell the difference between war heroes and murderers. Your loss. What a pitiful state of mind. What an empty heart. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:03 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people real women marry murderers?? On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 13:51:41 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has he ever killed anyone from a mile and half away? -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Its great to know there are some real men in Canada, in spite of the wimps that run the P.C. government. (In fact, my husband was born on a US AF base in Newfoundland. J ) iz Sniping with the .50 BMG in Afghanistan New long-distance record set! (The following is from the Canadian newspaper National Post. The shooters were using .50 BMG rifles that had Lilja barrels on them outfitted with Nightforce 5.5-22x NXS scopes.) OTTAWA BLOCKS U.S. EFFORT TO HONOUR OUR SNIPERS: Canadian snipers pose with their 50-calibre rifle at base camp in Kandahar. Five of the men, whose names the military withheld for security reasons, were nominated for Bronze Stars by the U.S. for their prowess in fighting near Gardez. The sixth joined the unit later in the war. Wait due to 'Canadian protocol' A kill from 2,430 metres By Michael Smith and Chris Wattie National Post The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defence officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned. The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon of the United States Army's 187th Rakkasan brigade last month, clearing out diehard fighters from the mountains near Gardez in eastern Afghanistan. The Americans were so impressed by the Canadian snipers that they recommended them for medals after the battle. Sources told the Post that U.S. General Warren Edwards had already signed the recommendation for five Bronze Stars for the sniper teams, drawn from 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, last month. Gen. Edwards, deputy commanding general of coalition land forces in Afghanistan, had recommended three Canadians for a Bronze Star and two for a Bronze Star with distinction. The night before the troops were to be awarded the medals, about three weeks ago, Canadian
Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets
His condition was "If you abide in Me and My Words abide in you" Tell me how does one meet the condition with other words abiding in them. Also how can one be a doer of the Word if they reject the true and embrace the false? On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 15:16:30 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You surprised me. J Smith was not an illuminary of the biblcial scriptures. He and Calvin are worlds apart. And Calvin's work certainly kept The Discussion alive for the established and Christian church. If you believe that one can be wrongabout something and remain connected to Christ, then you can see why all of those mentioned, with their varying points of view, can be named. jd From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think you named the apostles correctly. It appears that your list of names of the others goes down hill from there. You did not even mention Joseph Smith. Certainly he was as much a (False) prophet as Calvin and more influential than any of the liberals you chose to honor. You might want to get a good grip on reality and rethink this. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Within the church , God has placed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teacher. There collective ministries are given a threefold purpose, but the specifics of each functionary is unique and even exclusive. The apostles and prophets are a case in point. They are a part of those na med in Eph 4:11 ff while , at the same time, considered apart from the remaining categories (evangelists, pastors and teachers). It is the apostles and prophets who are the foundation of the "household of God" (Eph 2:20.) Because they are named as the foundation of the Church, we can be confident that their ministries compliment each other. The apostles are given an identify -- the "12" -- while, in fact, their numbers include the original 12, Matthias, Paul, Barnabas, James the brother of Jesus, and arguably Apollos, Silvanus and Titus. With this group of men, we have the writings of all NT scripture except the historical record of Luke (Luke/Acts). The apostles were charged with world mission, binding and loosing and the performace of miracles as an extension (in the Spirit) of who they were. All the recorded miracles of the NT scripture are performed by Jesus or one of the apostles. Their counterpart is the prophet. Whereas the apostles were given to the First Church, the prophets continue with the church throughout the ages. It is not the prophets work to continue the addition of scripture. That work was completed with the apostles. The scriptures were finished with the passing of the apostles. In time, the Church Catholic was challenged to identify those scriptures and, with the providential consideration of God, the Bible was the result. The prophet, named as a part of the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20) is, in reality, those we commonly refer to as "theologian." He is the one who continues the work of the apostle as he illuminates the message, keeping the biblical message at center stage and fresh for each new era within the church. People like Atha nasuius, Eusebias, Origen, Tertullian, Calvin, Luther, Barth are prophets to the Church Catholic while others, less catholic in function, add to this illuminary function, men like Wesley, Torrance, NT Wright, and, finally, those who have read and are acquainted with the above and have a good working knowledge of the written word, people like Debbie Sawczak, Bill Taylor, Victor Shepherd, Jon Hughs and the like. It is the prophet that keeps the word alive and helps to keep us centered on the Christ. The evangelist, pastor and teacher benefit from these prophets and give their (the prophets) conributions meaning to those within the church who have a better understanding of the common man and his language. And, so , the church at all levels is benefited, edified, regenerated with the living word without adding more and more scripture and bigge r and better phenom. A truly divine arrangement. jd -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
I take care not to add words or meaning to the words of scripture, however your words are not in the same category JD. I just can't figure why you would send such a comment as this. jt On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 15:24:48 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Back to your old tactics of adding words and meaning to my post. If you cannot accept my explanation of what I wrote AND, at the same time, feel the need to add wording to the post, I see no point in continuing the discussion. jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well JD the tone of your email was negative so I read it as something other than a compliment along with the fact that most of the time cute little rich girls are spoiled pagans. Do you know of one cute little rich girl celebrity who is a "steadfast" believer in the Lord Jesus Christ? If not then this is not a description of Linda. jt. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 05:06:40 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nothing wrong with being a cute little rich girl, Judy. You have fashioned an argument for no good reason. I do not need lessons on wealth and happiness. The contrast between her young life in Oregon and the life she now has as a successful doctor's wife has to be remarkable. And it my understanding that she rather enjoys her present circumstance. You made too much of my second paragraph below. jdFrom: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, what's this "cute little rich girl" stuff? Haven't you read what Linda has been writing all these years. She has hardly had a "cute little rich girl" life. Anyway money does not make anyone happy. Our daughter is married to someone who makes big bucks but is proving to be spiritually, emotionally, and morally desolate. Ask her if "rich is where it is at?" She is cute and so are our three grandaughters but it is not enough. Hurting ppl hurt other people and seldom hold themselves responsible. judytOn Mon, 26 Dec 2005 23:47:25 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't consider you as one who is qualified to discuss anything concerning the condition of the heart. You will disagree, of course, but you have shown a distinct harshness towards those who disagree with you, who are not of the same poltitical party, who do not share the same social standing (i.e. the poor blacks in N.O.) . Still, at other times, you almost seem human. Your account of the home in Oregon perhaps explains why you enjoy, so much, being a cute little rich girl. jd-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You and your ilk cant tell the difference between war heroes and murderers. Your loss. What a pitiful state of mind. What an empty heart. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:03 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people real women marry murderers??On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 13:51:41 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has he ever killed anyone from a mile and half away? -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Its great to know there are some real men in Canada, in spite of the wimps that run the P.C. government. (In fact, my husband was born on a US AF base in Newfoundland. J ) iz Sniping with the .50 BMG in Afghanistan New long-distance record set!(The following is from the Canadian newspaper National Post. The shooters were using .50 BMG rifles that had Lilja barrels on them outfitted with Nightforce 5.5-22x NXS scopes.) OTTAWA BLOCKS U.S. EFFORT TO HONOUR OUR SNIPERS: Canadian snipers pose with their 50-calibre rifle at base camp in Kandahar. Five of the men, whose names the military withheld for security reasons, were nominated for Bronze Stars by the U.S. for their prowess in fighting near Gardez. The sixth joined the unit later in the war. Wait due to 'Canadian protocol' A kill from 2,430 metres By Michael Smith and Chris Wattie National Post The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defence officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned. The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon of the United States Army's 187th "Rakkasan" brigade last month, clearing out diehard fighters from the mountains near Gardez in eastern Afghanistan. The Americans were so impressed by the Canadian snipers that they recommended them for medals after the battle. Sources told the Post that U.S. General Warren Edwards had already signed the recommendation for five Bronze Stars for the sniper teams, drawn from 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry,
Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
myth (e.g., evidence shows that you'verevise/d the meaning of the book of James toaccommodate your private doctrinal demands) On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:33:23 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I take care not to add words or meaning to the words of scripture, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry
Blainerb: Freemasonry is obviously descended from the time when the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple and the walls of the city. It is one thing to say such as you have stated below, but quite another to show beyond reasonable doubt that your assertions are correct. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to double-check your sources. In a message dated 12/27/2005 8:04:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:06:14 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he joined the Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they might offer in times of duress--as you are probably aware, he was arrested on false charges many times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and abused both physically and verballya lot of times by antis of his day. But I am sure if there is any official commentary from Church authorities, Kevin would know where it would be found. Especially if it could be used against the Church. :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/26/2005 10:08:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion regarding freemasonary?
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
My thinking, too, jd. In fact, I wonder if Marlin collects antiques. Marlin, do you hold onto the past in other ways, too? Blainerb In a message dated 12/25/2005 9:57:09 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hello Marlin. Christmas has a very different definition around our house. I am not one who cares about the history or even the etimology of words and events that have taken on definitions of their own. It is a blessed time of year. We think of and even celebrate the birth of Christ, knowing that His presense was all about emanuel. jd -- Original message -- From: "Marlin halverson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1.) Christ 2.) Mass I think we all know that "Christ" refers to God's Son Jesus. The word "Mass" comes from Old English mæsse, a modification of (assumed) Vulgar Latin messa from the Late Latin missa, literally meaning "dismissal"; as in at the end of a religious service. The Middle English Christemasse, comes from Old English Cristes mæsse, literally, Christ's mass - shortened to "Christ-mas". Meaning the "dismissal" or passing away of Christ; or more directly, the death of Christ.. Those who understand a bit about the Catholic religion realize that the "Mass" always refers to the sacrificial death of Christ. The word "Christmas" comes from the Roman Catholic ritual. Folks walk around this time of year saying "Merry Christmas!" to each other. I wonder if it occurs to anyone they are saying "Merry Death of Christ." www.truthontheweb.org/NwsClpz/122405.htm- Maranatha
Re: [TruthTalk] Perhaps YOU can 'share', David!
Blainerb: I believe most people, being children of God, experience spiritual experiences, possibly termed miracles, at some time or other in their lives.I read of such accounts in crediblesources quite often. I have no real reason to doubt the sincerity of these people, who are not even Mormons, usually. However, the type of miracles mentioned in the scriptures, such as casting out devils, instantaneous healing by the laying on of hands, being healed by spiritual means, and doing such in the name of Jesus Christ, even raising the dead, are much rarer. They do appear in Mormon literature quite often. My own grandfather, while he was on missions (2) to Norway, reports such events happening. Hewrites a detailed account ofcasting out devils by the laying on of hands, and in the name of Jesus Christ. He reports healing people, also by the laying on hands, by authority of the priesthood after the order of the Son of God (Melchizedek PH), which he had received beforedeparting for his mission.He reports being healed, by the laying on of hands--hands that were felt tangibly but unseen. He reports seeing other Elders do these things also. As I said, Mormon literature is full of these things. As for me, my miracles have been restricted to personal spiritual experiences, of which I have had many--some confirming the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be true, and the BoM to be true. I have not healed anyone, nor cast out devils. Perhaps my faith needs to be strengthened before doing these things. In a message dated 12/26/2005 3:38:48 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFO would appreciate hearing from you on this.- Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: December 25, 2005 15:23Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides Blainerb: Just for the record, I believe the Lord was speaking to his apostles, but was speaking concerning all whom they taught. That's how I read it too, but I will continue to consider Perry's comments. Blaine wrote: As Jesus said to Joseph Smith, concerning the Christians of that day, "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof." (Speaking of the power of God to perform miracles) The problem is, there is an almost universal disbelief in God's power to perform miraculous acts. Miracles are commonly reported among Mormon believers--I have experienced a number of them myself--almost always in connection with work in the church. Miracles are common among many of the Christian communities that operate in faith, but this unfortunately is a minority among all the Christians of the world. Most of the Mormons I have known and spoken to do not have direct experience with miracles. Perhaps you can share some of your testimony with us concerning how God has worked miraculously in your Mormon community. I watched a movie not too long ago about a Mormon missonary named John Groberg whose assignment was Tonga. It was called, "The Other Side of Heaven." Have you seen it? What do you think of it? It seemed a bit skimpy on the kind of miracles that I hear from most Christian missionaries. Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] The cross of Christ
An apprehension of the crossis so important that it truly makes a difference between those who are born from above and those who are not. DAVEH: Do you believe the Primitive Christians had that apprehension? David Miller wrote: The power of the cross is found in the "turn the other cheek" doctrine of Christ. Jesus said that his disciples must take up their cross and follow him. It is the doctrine of self denial, illustrated most perfectly by Jesus going to the cross to die for us. Without the cross, you have just another religion. It is the doctrine of the cross and its power to bring salvation that makes Christianity unique. In my opinion, not understanding the cross and the power of the cross is a very serious error. An apprehension of the crossis so important that it truly makes a difference between those who are born from above and those who are not. Peace be with you. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Dave To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 3:47 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas! I see power in the cross. You see defeat. DAVEH: The power of the cross as I see it was the ability of it to actually bring death to Jesus. That is not to say that I don't think Jesus had any power over the cross to prevent his death from occurring on it. Quite the contrary.I think Jesus could easily have avoided being nailed to the cross, as he could have called legions of angels to protect him from his enemies. But...that would not have permitted the plan of salvation to proceed as it had been planned from before the foundations of the world. You are right thoughI do not view the cross as having any good power at all. It was a tool of the enemies of Jesus, and he allowed himself to be subjected to it in order to become the perfect sacrifice. The power of Jesus is in his resurrection which brought life, not in the cross which brought death. The cross killed Jesus just as it killed those who were nailed to it before, since and at the same time. Nowyou have said that I view the cross as defeating Jesus. I don't perceive it that way at all. What temporary victory the enemies of Jesus may have felt by his death on the cross was certainly reversed by his subsequent resurrection. But his resurrection did not occur on the cross. From the time Jesus died on the cross and was subsequently resurrected on the 3rd day thereafter, Jesus experienced hell. By the time Jesus was resurrected, the cross was old history, so to speak. Do you think the cross had any power to resurrect Jesus? I'd be surprised if you do, DavidM. SO.why do you suggest the cross has any power? I view the cross as a symbol of death, whether it is the death of people buried in a cemetery or the cross worn by Christians or the cross that adorns Christian edifices which symbolizes the death of Jesus. It is a symbol of death, which I perceived you to say a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. ..which doesn't seem to different from what I said. I realize that many Christians use the cross to symbolize Jesus, effectively their view of his power over the cross. IF he had been stoned, would those same Christians be wearing a symbol of a stone around their neck, or adorning their edifices? Or, what if Jesus had been killed by a spearsay the spear that was used to lance his skin to make sure he was dead, had the cross not killed him? Would those same Christians then use a spear as their symbol? Just where does the power of Christ residein the device (whether it be a stone, spear or cross) used to kill him, or in his innate power as God? Do you believe Mary or any of the Primitive Christians used the cross as a symbol in the same way many do today? If not, then why do some Christians today feel differently than did the Primitive Christians? David Miller wrote: David Miller wrote: ... a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. Dave Hansen wrote: When I suggested similar, it brought a lot of chastisement. Why do you suppose the difference? Context. I don't think you understand the value of the cross. You raised its issue from skepticism concerning what value the symbol had. I raised the issue from using this symbol to illustrate the victory that Jesus wrought in the cross. I see power in the cross. You see defeat. Is this not true? Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry
rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. DAVEH: Could not the same argument be made about Christmas and Easter, Judy? http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.html http://www.outsidethecamp.org/dyk14.htm http://www.benbest.com/history/xmas.html It seems to me that if you want to criticize Mormonism in such a manner, you should probably want to review modern Christianity in the same light. Judy Taylor wrote: I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] The cross of Christ
DAVEH: Do you believe the Primitive Christians had that apprehension? Yes, absolutely. Just look at how much the New Testament writes about the cross. The earliest of the church fathers also wrote about the cross. Ignatius of the first century magnified the cross even more than Paul did. Polycarp, born in the first century and martyred in the middle of the second century, was a disciple of John. He said in one of his epistles that whosoever does not confess the testimony of the cross is of the devil. Justin Martyr of the early second century also wrote extensively on the cross. There is no doubt that the cross was extremely important and emphasized by the primitive Christians, much more so than by most Christians today. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] here is the real questions
Just think about your family ending up raped,
tortured, and in one of those terrorist mass graves.
And remember 9-11. iz
If the survival of my nation isof
no ultimateimportance to God {let's keep in mind that America is a
Gentile and secualr nation to the exclusion of all other considerations), how
do I defenda personal involvement in the military
establishment?
jd
RE: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
Just to protect your sorry . From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:55 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people perhaps..partic while 'combat'contains the operative myth, below; e.g., when rival gangs engage in combative streetlevel sniping, the police investigate the/ir 'murder(er)s'; however, ppl like Izzy, contrary to their own law/s,require society to invest itsmoral capital in manufacturing (their) 'murder' anexpedientexemption fortheir particular priorities purpose/s On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 10:12:08 -0800 Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gary, your statement seems to imply that you believe that killing incombatis murder. Is that you belief? ||
RE: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
I was truly hoping my son would drop a big J-dam right on Osama's nose. In fact, I'd be proud to kill him myself. (Think Jael!) iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:36 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people Has your husband killed anyone? How 'bout your relative, the pilot? Sounds like merit badge of manhood for ya. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 26, 2005 13:12 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people Gary, your statement seems to imply that you believe that killing in combat is murder. Is that you belief? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:03:27 -0700 real women marry murderers?? On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 13:51:41 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has he ever killed anyone from a mile and half away? -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's great to know there are some real men in Canada, in spite of the wimps that run the P.C. government. (In fact, my husband was born on a US AF base in Newfoundland. J ) iz Sniping with the .50 BMG in Afghanistan New long-distance record set! (The following is from the Canadian newspaper National Post. The shooters were using .50 BMG rifles that had Lilja barrels on them outfitted with Nightforce 5.5-22x NXS scopes.) OTTAWA BLOCKS U.S. EFFORT TO HONOUR OUR SNIPERS: Canadian snipers pose with their 50-calibre rifle at base camp in Kandahar. Five of the men, whose names the military withheld for security reasons, were nominated for Bronze Stars by the U.S. for their prowess in fighting near Gardez. The sixth joined the unit later in the war. Wait due to 'Canadian protocol' A kill from 2,430 metres By Michael Smith and Chris Wattie National Post The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defence officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned. The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon of the United States Army's 187th Rakkasan brigade last month, clearing out diehard fighters from the mountains near Gardez in eastern Afghanistan. The Americans were so impressed by the Canadian snipers that they recommended them for medals after the battle. Sources told the Post that U.S. General Warren Edwards had already signed the recommendation for five Bronze Stars for the sniper teams, drawn from 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, last month. Gen. Edwards, deputy commanding general of coalition land forces in Afghanistan, had recommended three Canadians for a Bronze Star and two for a Bronze Star with distinction. The night before the troops were to be awarded the medals, about three weeks ago, Canadian military officials in Ottawa put the decorations on hold, according to a U.S. Army source in Afghanistan. The Canadian military told their U.S. counterparts to wait before awarding the medals for reasons of Canadian protocol. Spokesmen for the Department of National Defence would not comment on the award last night, but a source within the department said the medals are on hold while the military decides whether or not to award the men a similar Canadian decoration. However, Dr. David Bercuson, director of the Centre of Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary, said the real reason for the delay was likely official squeamishness. Canadians don't kill -- they don't even use the word kill; that's the problem, he said. I think the military is not sure that the government is prepared to accept the fact, let alone celebrate the fact ... that Canadian soldiers do sometimes end up killing people. Many of the U.S. scouts who worked directly with the Canadian snipers were incensed that the Canadians did not get the Bronze Star, the medal for bravery the U.S. military usually gives foreign soldiers serving alongside its troops. The snipers themselves, all of whom spoke on condition their names not be printed, have said they would prefer to receive a medal from their peers in the field rather than from National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa. Dr. Bercuson said there should be no objection to Canadians receiving a U.S. decoration: As recently as the Gulf War, two Canadian CF-18 pilots were given the Bronze Star. He said the medals would be a badly needed boost to the morale of the almost 900 Canadian soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan, especially after four of their comrades were killed and eight others wounded in last week's friendly fire incident. Absolutely they should get it, Dr. Bercuson said. It would be good for the
RE: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
So what does that have to do with anything? (Nothing at all.) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 5:43 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people perhaps you're sorta naive..glib..parrot-like, too, mouthing such stuff..like a .50 caliber round into the heart of somebody you don't even know is the essence of yourfeminine virtue..ftr, there was an excerpt on '60 Minutes' about these particweapons, e.g. the destructive impact of one such bullet on a moving car or truck even from a mile away but they didn'tdelve into what it would do to a human being, e.g., sitting peacefully ona front porch out there..a beautiful sight for you--eh, sorta likelimbaugh's loveof the lord himself in your tender republicanheart On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 17:26:05 -0600 ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You and your ilk cant tell the difference between war heroes and murderers. Your loss. What a pitiful state of mind. What an empty heart. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:03 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people real women marry murderers?? On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 13:51:41 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has he ever killed anyone from a mile and half away? -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Its great to know there are some real men in Canada, in spite of the wimps that run the P.C. government. (In fact, my husband was born on a US AF base in Newfoundland. J ) iz Sniping with the .50 BMG in Afghanistan New long-distance record set! (The following is from the Canadian newspaper National Post. The shooters were using .50 BMG rifles that had Lilja barrels on them outfitted with Nightforce 5.5-22x NXS scopes.) OTTAWA BLOCKS U.S. EFFORT TO HONOUR OUR SNIPERS: Canadian snipers pose with their 50-calibre rifle at base camp in Kandahar. Five of the men, whose names the military withheld for security reasons, were nominated for Bronze Stars by the U.S. for their prowess in fighting near Gardez. The sixth joined the unit later in the war. Wait due to 'Canadian protocol' A kill from 2,430 metres By Michael Smith and Chris Wattie National Post The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defence officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned. The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon of the United States Army's 187th Rakkasan brigade last month, clearing out diehard fighters from the mountains near Gardez in eastern Afghanistan. The Americans were so impressed by the Canadian snipers that they recommended them for medals after the battle. Sources told the Post that U.S. General Warren Edwards had already signed the recommendation for five Bronze Stars for the sniper teams, drawn from 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, last month. Gen. Edwards, deputy commanding general of coalition land forces in Afghanistan, had recommended three Canadians for a Bronze Star and two for a Bronze Star with distinction. The night before the troops were to be awarded the medals, about three weeks ago, Canadian military officials in Ottawa put the decorations on hold, according to a U.S. Army source in Afghanistan. The Canadian military told their U.S. counterparts to wait before awarding the medals for reasons of Canadian protocol. Spokesmen for the Department of National Defence would not comment on the award last night, but a source within the department said the medals are on hold while the military decides whether or not to award the men a similar Canadian decoration. However, Dr. David Bercuson, director of the Centre of Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary, said the real reason for the delay was likely official squeamishness. Canadians don't kill -- they don't even use the word kill; that's the problem, he said. I think the military is not sure that the government is prepared to accept the fact, let alone celebrate the fact ... that Canadian soldiers do sometimes end up killing people. Many of the U.S. scouts who worked directly with the Canadian snipers were incensed that the Canadians did not get the Bronze Star, the medal for bravery the U.S. military usually gives foreign soldiers serving alongside its troops. The snipers themselves, all of whom spoke on condition their names not be printed, have said they would prefer to receive a medal from their peers in the field rather than from National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa. Dr. Bercuson said there should be no objection to Canadians receiving a U.S.
RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: atta-boy Canadians]
Okay. Think King David, a man after Gods own heart. Think Peter, Paul, Samson, Moses, Joshua. You get the idea. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:33 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: atta-boy Canadians] Not gonna get a serious comment from you on this are we? - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 26, 2005 13:24 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: atta-boy Canadians] They sure aint Girliemen! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 5:37 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: atta-boy Canadians] This, Judy, is that of which I speak. REAL MEN? equated with GUNS? Seriously, ASK GOD if that is HOW HE DEFINES 'REAL MEN'!. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 26, 2005 06:15 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: atta-boy Canadians] Its great to know there are some real men in Canada, in spite of the wimps that run the P.C. government. (In fact, my husband was born on a US AF base in Newfoundland. J ) iz Sniping with the .50 BMG in Afghanistan New long-distance record set! (The following is from the Canadian newspaper National Post. The shooters were using .50 BMG rifles that had Lilja barrels on them outfitted with Nightforce 5.5-22x NXS scopes.) OTTAWA BLOCKS U.S. EFFORT TO HONOUR OUR SNIPERS: Canadian snipers pose with their 50-calibre rifle at base camp in Kandahar. Five of the men, whose names the military withheld for security reasons, were nominated for Bronze Stars by the U.S. for their prowess in fighting near Gardez. The sixth joined the unit later in the war. Wait due to 'Canadian protocol' A kill from 2,430 metres By Michael Smith and Chris Wattie National Post The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defence officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned. The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon of the United States Army's 187th Rakkasan brigade last month, clearing out diehard fighters from the mountains near Gardez in eastern Afghanistan. The Americans were so impressed by the Canadian snipers that they recommended them for medals after the battle. Sources told the Post that U.S. General Warren Edwards had already signed the recommendation for five Bronze Stars for the sniper teams, drawn from 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, last month. Gen. Edwards, deputy commanding general of coalition land forces in Afghanistan, had recommended three Canadians for a Bronze Star and two for a Bronze Star with distinction. The night before the troops were to be awarded the medals, about three weeks ago, Canadian military officials in Ottawa put the decorations on hold, according to a U.S. Army source in Afghanistan. The Canadian military told their U.S. counterparts to wait before awarding the medals for reasons of Canadian protocol. Spokesmen for the Department of National Defence would not comment on the award last night, but a source within the department said the medals are on hold while the military decides whether or not to award the men a similar Canadian decoration. However, Dr. David Bercuson, director of the Centre of Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary, said the real reason for the delay was likely official squeamishness. Canadians don't kill -- they don't even use the word kill; that's the problem, he said. I think the military is not sure that the government is prepared to accept the fact, let alone celebrate the fact ... that Canadian soldiers do sometimes end up killing people. Many of the U.S. scouts who worked directly with the Canadian snipers were incensed that the Canadians did not get the Bronze Star, the medal for bravery the U.S. military usually gives foreign soldiers serving alongside its troops. The snipers themselves, all of whom spoke on condition their names not be printed, have said they would prefer to receive a medal from their peers in the field rather than from National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa. Dr. Bercuson said there should be no objection to Canadians receiving a U.S. decoration: As recently as the Gulf War, two Canadian CF-18 pilots were given the Bronze Star. He said the medals would be a badly needed boost to the morale of the almost 900 Canadian soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan, especially after four of their comrades were killed and eight others wounded in last week's friendly fire incident. Absolutely they should get it, Dr. Bercuson said. It would
RE: [Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] atta boy Canadians]
Only if you are working for the US railroad I suppose. White folks arent allowed otherwise on Indian reservations. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 6:27 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] atta boy Canadians] Sounds ideal. Is it still available? ShieldsFamily wrote: I lived on an Indian reservation in the Oregon mts when I was very young,but still remember it. My grandfather worked on a railroad that went thruthe area. Lived in a house made of two side by side railroad cars heatedwith a wood stove. Outhouse out back. Lots of wilderness and deep snow inthe winter. The snakes weren't so cute, though. iz-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Monday, December 26, 2005 7:55 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] atta boy Canadians]My wife is from Washington state. We have lived in cold weather before, but you find me a prairie dog town in Oregon and we might change our minds. We have been through 48 states and in my memory, oregon was the most beautiful of all.TerryDave wrote: DAVEH: Unless you've experienced the Montana or Wyoming winters, you might want to take a peek at Oregon before making such a major error of judgment, Terry! =-OTerry Clifton wrote: www.cliftoncustomrifles.comRight now, we have the place up for sale. If we get our price, we intend to move to Montana or Wyoming and spend our last days shooting prairie dogs and coyotes. --Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may knowhow you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
How judgmental you are jd. We will all give account for our words one day. And, as Ive explained more than once, I came from poverty. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 5:47 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people I don't consider you as one who is qualified to discuss anything concerning the condition of the heart. You will disagree, of course, but you have shown a distinct harshness towards those who disagree with you, who are not of the same poltitical party, who do not share the same social standing (i.e. the poor blacks in N.O.) . Still, at other times, you almost seem human. You account of the home in Oregon perhaps explains why you enjoy, so much, being a cute little rich girl. jd -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] You and your ilk cant tell the difference between war heroes and murderers. Your loss. What a pitiful state of mind. What an empty heart. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:03 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people real women marry murderers?? On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 13:51:41 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has he ever killed anyone from a mile and half away? -- Original message -- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Its great to know there are some real men in Canada, in spite of the wimps that run the P.C. government. (In fact, my husband was born on a US AF base in Newfoundland. J ) iz Sniping with the .50 BMG in Afghanistan New long-distance record set! (The following is from the Canadian newspaper National Post. The shooters were using .50 BMG rifles that had Lilja barrels on them outfitted with Nightforce 5.5-22x NXS scopes.) OTTAWA BLOCKS U.S. EFFORT TO HONOUR OUR SNIPERS: Canadian snipers pose with their 50-calibre rifle at base camp in Kandahar. Five of the men, whose names the military withheld for security reasons, were nominated for Bronze Stars by the U.S. for their prowess in fighting near Gardez. The sixth joined the unit later in the war. Wait due to 'Canadian protocol' A kill from 2,430 metres By Michael Smith and Chris Wattie National Post The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defence officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned. The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon of the United States Army's 187th Rakkasan brigade last month, clearing out diehard fighters from the mountains near Gardez in eastern Afghanistan. The Americans were so impressed by the Canadian snipers that they recommended them for medals after the battle. Sources told the Post that U.S. General Warren Edwards had already signed the recommendation for five Bronze Stars for the sniper teams, drawn from 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, last month. Gen. Edwards, deputy commanding general of coalition land forces in Afghanistan, had recommended three Canadians for a Bronze Star and two for a Bronze Star with distinction. The night before the troops were to be awarded the medals, about three weeks ago, Canadian military officials in Ottawa put the decorations on hold, according to a U.S. Army source in Afghanistan. The Canadian military told their U.S. counterparts to wait before awarding the medals for reasons of Canadian protocol. Spokesmen for the Department of National Defence would not comment on the award last night, but a source within the department said the medals are on hold while the military decides whether or not to award the men a similar Canadian decoration. However, Dr. David Bercuson, director of the Centre of Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary, said the real reason for the delay was likely official squeamishness. Canadians don't kill -- they don't even use the word kill; that's the problem, he said. I think the military is not sure that the government is prepared to accept the fact, let alone celebrate the fact ... that Canadian soldiers do sometimes end up killing people. Many of the U.S. scouts who worked directly with the Canadian snipers were incensed that the Canadians did not get the Bronze Star, the medal for bravery the U.S. military usually gives foreign soldiers serving alongside its troops. The snipers themselves, all of whom spoke on condition their names not be printed, have said they would prefer to receive a medal from their peers in the field rather than from National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa. Dr. Bercuson said there
Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] His condition was "If you abide in Me and My Words abide in you" Tell me how does one meet the condition with other words abiding in them.There is no reason to believe that any other word than the word of God abides in any of the named individuals in my post. Also how can one be a doer of the Word if they reject the true and embrace the false? That is the purpose of the cross, Judy. The cross is not about turning the other cheek or suffering just for the heck it, having already done so in the garden. No. It about the offer of grace expressed in redemption and it forever means that God accepts us as we are, where we are while, at the same time, giving us the power and good sense (ala His advice) to be free to to become what we were meant to be. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 15:16:30 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You surprised me. J Smith was not an illuminary of the biblcial scriptures. He and Calvin are worlds apart. And Calvin's work certainly kept The Discussion alive for the established and Christian church. If you believe that one can be wrongabout something and remain connected to Christ, then you can see why all of those mentioned, with their varying points of view, can be named. jd From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think you named the apostles correctly. It appears that your list of names of the others goes down hill from there. You did not even mention Joseph Smith. Certainly he was as much a (False) prophet as Calvin and more influential than any of the liberals you chose to honor. You might want to get a good grip on reality and rethink this.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Within the church , God has placed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teacher. There collective ministries are given a threefold purpose, but the specifics of each functionary is unique and even exclusive. The apostles and prophets are a case in point. They are a part of those na med in Eph 4:11 ff while , at the same time, consi dered apart from the remaining categories (evangelists, pastors and teachers). It is the apostles and prophets who are the foundation of the "household of God" (Eph 2:20.) Because they are named as the foundation of the Church, we can be confident that their ministries compliment each other. The apostles are given an identify -- the "12" -- while, in fact, their numbers include the original 12, Matthias, Paul, Barnabas, James the brother of Jesus, and arguably Apollos, Silvanus and Titus. With this group of men, we have the writings of all NT scripture except the historical record of Luke (Luke/Acts). The apostles were charged with world mission, binding and loosing and the performace of miracles as an extension (in the Spirit) of who they were. All the recorded miracles of the NT scripture are performed by Jesus or one of th e apostles. Their counterpart is the prophet. Whereas the apostles were given to the First Church, the prophets continue with the church throughout the ages. It is not the prophets work to continue the addition of scripture. That work was completed with the apostles. The scriptures were finished with the passing of the apostles. In time, the Church Catholic was challenged to identify those scriptures and, with the providential consideration of God, the Bible was the result. The prophet, named as a part of the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20) is, in reality, those we commonly refer to as "theologian." He is the one who continues the work of the apostle as he illuminates the message, keeping the biblical message at center stage and fresh for each new era within the church. People like Atha nasuius, Eusebias, Origen, Tertullian, Calvin, Lu ther, Barth are prophets to the Church Catholic while others, less catholic in function, add to this illuminary function, men like Wesley, Torrance, NT Wright, and, finally, those who have read and are acquainted with the above and have a good working knowledge of the written word, people like Debbie Sawczak, Bill Taylor, Victor Shepherd, Jon Hughs and the like. It is the prophet that keeps the word alive and helps to keep us centered on the Christ. The evangelist, pastor and teacher benefit from these prophets and give their (the prophets) conributions meaning to those within the church who have a better understanding of the common man and his language. And, so , the church at all levels is benefited, edified, regenerated with the living word without adding more and more scripture and bigge r and better phenom. A truly divine arrangement. jd -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be
Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
then it's true, as evidence shows, that youkeep neitheryour own laws,nor God's On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:22:27 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just to protect your sorry . From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:55 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people ..ppl like Izzy, contrary to their own law/s,require society to invest itsmoral capital in manufacturing (their) 'murder' anexpedientexemption fortheir particular priorities purpose/s ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
what's the relationship betw your 'virtue' your 'value/s'? On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:22:27 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So what does that have to do with anything? (Nothing at all.) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 5:43 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people perhaps you're sorta naive..glib..parrot-like, too, mouthing such stuff..like a .50 caliber round into the heart of somebody you don't even know is the essence of yourfeminine virtue..ftr, there was an excerpt on '60 Minutes' about these particweapons, e.g. the destructive impact of one such bullet on a moving car or truck even from a mile away but they didn'tdelve into what it would do to a human being, e.g., sitting peacefully ona front porch out there..a beautiful sight for you--eh, sorta likelimbaugh's loveof the lord himself in your tender republicanheart On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 17:26:05 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You and your ilk cant tell the difference between war heroes and murderers. Your loss. What a pitiful state of mind. What an empty heart. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:03 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people real women marry murderers?? On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 13:51:41 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has he ever killed anyone from a mile and half away? -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Its great to know there are some real men in Canada, in spite of the wimps that run the P.C. government. (In fact, my husband was born on a US AF base in Newfoundland. J ) iz Sniping with the .50 BMG in Afghanistan New long-distance record set! (The following is from the Canadian newspaper National Post. The shooters were using .50 BMG rifles that had Lilja barrels on them outfitted with Nightforce 5.5-22x NXS scopes.) OTTAWA BLOCKS U.S. EFFORT TO HONOUR OUR SNIPERS: Canadian snipers pose with their 50-calibre rifle at base camp in Kandahar. Five of the men, whose names the military withheld for security reasons, were nominated for Bronze Stars by the U.S. for their prowess in fighting near Gardez. The sixth joined the unit later in the war. Wait due to 'Canadian protocol'A kill from 2,430 metres By Michael Smith and Chris WattieNational Post The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defence officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned. The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon of the United States Army's 187th "Rakkasan" brigade last month, clearing out diehard fighters from the mountains near Gardez in eastern Afghanistan. The Americans were so impressed by the Canadian snipers that they recommended them for medals after the battle. Sources told the Post that U.S. General Warren Edwards had already signed the recommendation for five Bronze Stars for the sniper teams, drawn from 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, last month. Gen. Edwards, deputy commanding general of coalition land forces in Afghanistan, had recommended three Canadians for a Bronze Star and two for a Bronze Star with distinction.The night before the troops were to be awarded the medals, about three weeks ago, Canadian military officials in Ottawa put the decorations on hold, according to a U.S. Army source in Afghanistan. The Canadian military told their U.S. counterparts to wait before awarding the medals for reasons of "Canadian protocol." Spokesmen for the Department of National Defence would not comment on the award last night, but a source within the department said the medals are on hold while the military decides whether or not to award the men a similar Canadian decoration. However, Dr. David Bercuson, director of the Centre of Military and Strategic Studies at the
Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
You do add words to the posts of others and you do it often. Here are some words added to my post -- ".most of the time cute little rich girls are spoiled pagans. Do youknow of one cute little rich girl celebrity whois a "steadfast" believer in the Lord Jesus Christ? If not then this is ot a description of Linda." You are the one comparing "cut little rich girls" to "spoiled pagans." You have added your bias to my post in this case. And,again,you use words not found in my post nor implied therein with these words --"Do you know of one cute little rich girl celebrity ." You do the same with scripture. jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I take care not to add words or meaning to the words of scripture, however your words are not in the same category JD. I just can't figure why you would send such a comment as this. jt On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 15:24:48 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Back to your old tactics of adding words and meaning to my post. If you cannot accept my explanation of what I wrote AND, at the same time, feel the need to add wording to the post, I see no point in continuing the discussion. jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well JD the tone of your email was negative so I read it as something other than a compliment along with the fact that most of the time cute little rich girls are spoiled pagans. Do you know of one cute little rich girl celebrity who is a "steadfast" believer in the Lord Jesus Christ? If not then this is not a description of Linda. jt. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 05:06:40 +0 000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nothing wrong with being a cute little rich girl, Judy. You have fashioned an argument for no good reason. I do not need lessons on wealth and happiness. The contrast between her young life in Oregon and the life she now has as a successful doctor's wife has to be remarkable. And it my understanding that she rather enjoys her present circumstance. You made too much of my second paragraph below. jdFrom: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, what's this "cute little rich girl" stuff? Haven't you read what Linda has been writing all these years. She has hardly had a "cute little rich girl" life. Anyway money does not make anyone happy. Our daughter is married to someone who makes big bucks but is proving to be spiritually, emotionally, and morally desolate. Ask her if "rich is where it is at?" She is cute and so are our three grandaughters but it is not enough. Hurting ppl hurt other people and seldom hold themselves responsible. judytOn Mon, 26 Dec 2005 23:47:25 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't consider you as one who is qualified to discuss anything concerning the condition of the heart. You will disagree, of course, but you have shown a distinct harshness towards those who disagree with you, who are not of the same poltitical party, who do not share the same social standing (i.e. the poor blacks in N.O.) . Still, at other t; times, you almost seem human. Your account of the home in Oregon perhaps explains why you enjoy, so much, being a cute little rich girl. jd-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You and your ilk cant tell the difference between war heroes and murderers. Your loss. What a pitiful state of mind. What an empty heart. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:03 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill peoplereal women marry murderers??On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 13:51:41 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has he ever killed anyone from a mile and half away?-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Its great to know there are some real men in Canada, in spite of the wimps that run the P.C. government. (In fact, my husband was born on a US AF base in Newfoundland. J ) iz Sniping with the .50 BMG in Afghanistan New long-di stance record set!(The following is from the Canadian newspaper National Post. The shooters were using .50 BMG rifles that had Lilja barrels on them outfitted with Nightforce 5.5-22x NXS scopes.) OTTAWA BLOCKS U.S. EFFORT TO HONOUR OUR SNIPERS: Canadian snipers pose with their 50-calibre rifle at base camp in Kandahar. Five of the men, whose names the military withheld for security reasons, were nominated for Bronze Stars by the U.S. for their prowess in fighting near Gardez. The sixth joined the unit later in the war. Wait due to 'Canadian protocol' A kill from 2,430 metres By Michael Smith and Chris Wattie National PostThe United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern
RE: [TruthTalk] here is the real questions
"vengenance" is your answer? !! I am not surprised. I think the question I have asked is a good one and deserving of an intellectual answer. Emotional bias is not what I even care about.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Just think about your family ending up raped, tortured, and in one of those terrorist mass graves. And remember 9-11. iz
If the survival of "my" nation isof no ultimateimportance to God {let's keep in mind that America is a Gentile and asecular nation to the exclusion of all other considerations), how do I defenda personal involvement in the military establishment?
jd
RE: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
I am not sure your escape from poverty has been completed. jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] How judgmental you are jd. We will all give account for our words one day. And, as Ive explained more than once, I came from poverty. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 5:47 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people I don't consider you as one who is qualified to discuss anything concerning the condition of the heart. You will disagree, of course, but you have shown a distinct harshness towards those who disagree with you, who are not of the same poltitical party, who do not share the same social standing (i.e. the poor blacks in N.O.) . Still, at other times, you almost seem human. You account of the home in Oregon perhaps explains why you enjoy, so much, being a cute little rich girl. jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You and your ilk cant tell the difference between war heroes and murderers. Your loss. What a pitiful state of mind. What an empty heart. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:03 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people real women marry murderers?? On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 13:51:41 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has he ever killed anyone from a mile and half away? -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Its great to know there are some real men in Canada, in spite of the wimps that run the P.C. government. (In fact, my husband was born on a US AF base in Newfoundland. J ) iz Sniping with the .50 BMG in Afghanistan New long-distance record set! (The following is from the Canadian newspaper National Post. The shooters were using .50 BMG rifles that had Lilja barrels on them outfitted with Nightforce 5.5-22x NXS scopes.) OTTAWA BLOCKS U.S. EFFORT TO HONOUR OUR SNIPERS: Canadian snipers pose with their 50-calibre rifle at base camp in Kandahar. Five of the men, whose names the military withheld for security reasons, were nominated for Bronze Stars by the U.S. for their prowess in fighting near Gardez. The sixth joined the unit later in the war. Wait due to 'Canadian protocol'A kill from 2,430 metres By Michael Smith and Chris WattieNational Post The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defence officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned. The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon of the United States Army's 187th "Rakkasan" brigade last month, clearing out diehard fighters from the mountains near Gardez in eastern Afghanistan. The Americans were so impressed by the Canadian snipers that they recommended them for medals after the battle. Sources told the Post that U.S. General Warren Edwards had already signed the recommendation for five Bronze Stars for the sniper teams, drawn from 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, last month. Gen. Edwards, deputy commanding general of coalition land forces in Afghanistan, had recommended three Canadians for a Bronze Star and two for a Bronze Star with distinction.The night before the troops were to be awarded the medals, about three weeks ago, Canadian military officials in Ottawa put the decorations on hold, according to a U.S. Army source in Afgh anistan. The Canadian military told their U.S. counterparts to wait before awarding the medals for reasons of "Canadian protocol." Spokesmen for the Department of National Defence would not comment on the award last night, but a source within the department said the medals are on hold while the military decides whether or not to award the men a similar Canadian decoration. However, Dr. David Bercuson, director of the Centre of Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary, said the real reason for the delay was likely official squeamishness. "Canadians don't kill -- they don't even use the word kill; that's the problem," he said. "I think the military is not sure that the government is prepared to accept the fact, let alone celebrate the fact ... that Canadian soldiers do sometimes end up killing people." Many of the U.S. scouts who worked directly with the Canadian snipers were incensed that the Canadians did not get the Bronze Star, the medal for bravery the U.S. military usually gives foreign soldiers serving alongside its troops. The snipers themselves, all of whom spoke on condition their names not be printed, have said they would prefer to receive a medal from their peers in the field rather than from
RE: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people
Forget about the "cute" part. Little rich girls who talk like sailors do not qualify. jd -- Original message -- From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just to protect your sorry . From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 12:55 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Real men kill people perhaps..partic while 'combat'contains the operative myth, below; e.g., when rival gangs engage in combative streetlevel sniping, the police investigate the/ir 'murder(er)s'; however, ppl like Izzy, contrary to their own law/s,require society to invest itsmoral capital in manufacturing (their) 'murder' anexpedientexemption fortheir particular priorities purpose/s On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 10:12:08 -0800 "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gary, your statement seems to imply that you believe that killing incombatis murder. Is that you belief?||
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
some differences in our views. DAVEH: To boil it down, Terry..It seems to me the main difference is that you believe it necessary for the pain to be inflicted on Jesus from a 3rd party to make the atonement work. From my perspective, Jesus took our sins upon himself and suffered because of them without needing a 3rd party. As I mentioned before, his death was a necessary element of the atonement, because IF he had not died, the atonement would have been unable to have any effect due to our physical death preventing us from returning from the grave. So, in effect his death on the cross sealed the dealwhich is admittedly a poor choice of words. The atonement was a series of events that needed to transpire before it could take effect, which why the Lord uttered the words, It is finished. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden DAVEH: I understand your perspective on this, but for Jesus to literally sweat blood worrying about what is to come seems a bit oddeffectively, it would seem the anticipation is worse than the dreaded event. Do you really believe Jesus was so weak as that he would succumb in such a way to that mental distress? I don't. Why do many Christians perceive Jesus as God, who is all powerful and then think he would be mentally weak when facing death by torture? If on the other hand one would think (as you did below) that he suffered such in anticipation of taking on the sins of the world, then why could he not have taken upon himself our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane? He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin. DAVEH: In effect, you are saying his physical death paid the price of sin. And, since our physical death is a result of Adam's sin, Jesus had to die to atone for our sins, notwithstanding Adam's sin. Yet I perceive that many Christians fail to differentiate the double nature of salvation. Do you recognize that Jesus' resurrection is a separate issue from his atonement for our sins, Terry? until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done. DAVEH: I find that interesting. It had not occurred to me that you would feel that way. Do you know if that is perceived that way by most Christians? Terry Clifton wrote: I appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden much as I sweat out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to have my chest cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein from my leg and repaired the hoses feeding my heart. It is the waiting for something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be avoided. It is apprehension of what is to come. There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison. I would rather be killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester, but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of every human on Himself. The apprehension of a perfectly innocent person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin possible would be something you or I cannot possibly comprehend. He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin. He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the flogging, would have been much bloodier. A whip was used which had multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of flesh. Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before they could be nailed to the cross. Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage cannot move, and so you cannot breath. In order to breath, you must push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms. This is hard to do when any pressure on your feet causes pain because of the spike that nailed them to the cross. So the victim alternates, first breathing, then suffocating, first supporting himself with his legs, then hanging from his arms, no relief, even for a moment. The two thieves were finally suffocated when the soldiers took a mallet and crushed their legs, ending their ability to breath. With Jesus it was different. Prophecy said that not a bone would be broken and His legs were never hit with the mallet. At the moment He cried out, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me", He paid the price for our sins. Up until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world,
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Dave wrote: some differences in our views. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden DAVEH: I understand your perspective on this, but for Jesus to literally sweat blood worrying about what is to come seems a bit oddeffectively, it would seem the anticipation is worse than the dreaded event. Do you really believe Jesus was so weak as that he would succumb in such a way to that mental distress? I don't. Why do many Christians perceive Jesus as God, who is all powerful and then think he would be mentally weak when facing death by torture? If on the other hand one would think (as you did below) that he suffered such in anticipation of taking on the sins of the world, then why could he not have taken upon himself our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane? = 1. I don't think you (or I ) know how much God hates sin. Revulsion would be too mild a term. Hate may be too mild to describe it. Only when we fall at His feet a moment after we die will we truly realize how perfectly holy He is and how evil we are. Jesus was not mentally weak. He was morally strong. 2. Even a casual look at the blood sacrifices offered for the atonement of sin will tell you that the substitute has to die. The payback for sin is death. Always has been, always will be. I do not see Him dying for Adam's sin. I see that He died for mine. I think that anyone who sees Jesus as their personal savior feels that way. He died for me. I live for Him.
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
-- Original message -- From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] some differences in our views.DAVEH: To boil it down, Terry..It seems to me the main difference is that you believe it necessary for the pain to be inflicted on Jesus from a 3rd party to make the atonement work. From my perspective, Jesus took our sins upon himself and suffered because of them without needing a 3rd party. you contrast the theoretical with the (biblical) reality. The(biblical)fact is this: He died on the cross at the hands of others.Converting thetheoretical into a "fact" puts you (or anyone) at the center of your faith. As I mentioned before, his death was a necessary element of the atonement, because IF he had not died, the atonement would have been unable to have any effect due to our physical death preventing us from returning from the grave. So, in effect his death on the cross sealed the dealwhich is admittedly a poor choice of words. The atonement was a series of events that needed to transpire before it could take effect, which why the Lord uttered the words, It is finished.I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the gardenDAVEH: I understand your perspective on this, but for Jesus to literally sweat blood worrying about what is to come seems a bit oddeffectively, it would seem the anticipation is worse than the dreaded event. Do you really believe Jesus was so weak as that he would succumb in such a way to that mental distress? I don't. Why do many Christians perceive Jesus as God, who is all powerful and then think he would be mentally weak when facing death by torture? If on the other hand one would think (as you did below) that he suffered such in anticipation of taking on the sins of the world, then why could he not have taken upon himself our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane?He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin.DAVEH: In effect, you are saying his physical death paid the price of sin. And, since our physical death is a result of Adam's sin, Jesus had to die to atone for our sins, notwithstanding Adam's sin. Yet I perceive that many Christians fail to differentiate the double nature of salvation. Do you recognize that Jesus' resurrection is a separate issue from his atonement for our sins, Terry?until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done. DAVEH: I find that interesting. It had not occurred to me that you would feel that way. Do you know if that is perceived that way by most Christians?Terry Clifton wrote: I appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views.I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden much as I sweat out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to have my chest cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein from my leg and repaired the hoses feeding my heart. It is the waiting for something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be avoided. It is apprehension of what is to come.There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison. I would rather be killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester, but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of every human on Himself. The apprehension of a perfectly innocent person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin poss ible would be something you or I cannot possibly comprehend. He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin.He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the flogging, would have been much bloodier. A whip was used which had multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of flesh. Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before they could be nailed to the cross.Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage cannot move, and so you cannot breath. In order to breath, you must push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms. This is hard to do when any pressure on your feet causes pain because of the spike that nailed them to the c ross. So the victim alternates, first breathing, then suffocating, first supporting himself with his legs, then hanging from his arms, no relief, even for a moment. The two thieves were finally suffocated when the soldiers took a mallet and crushed their legs, ending their ability to breath.With Jesus it was different. Prophecy said that not a
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
The(biblical)fact is this: He died on the cross at the hands of others. DAVEH: I agree, John. What do you think caused Jesus to suffer so much in the Garden of Gethsemane? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] some differences in our views. DAVEH: To boil it down, Terry..It seems to me the main difference is that you believe it necessary for the pain to be inflicted on Jesus from a 3rd party to make the atonement work. From my perspective, Jesus took our sins upon himself and suffered because of them without needing a 3rd party. you contrast the theoretical with the (biblical) reality. The(biblical)fact is this: He died on the cross at the hands of others.Converting thetheoretical into a "fact" puts you (or anyone) at the center of your faith. As I mentioned before, his death was a necessary element of the atonement, because IF he had not died, the atonement would have been unable to have any effect due to our physical death preventing us from returning from the grave. So, in effect his death on the cross sealed the dealwhich is admittedly a poor choice of words. The atonement was a series of events that needed to transpire before it could take effect, which why the Lord uttered the words, It is finished. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden DAVEH: I understand your perspective on this, but for Jesus to literally sweat blood worrying about what is to come seems a bit oddeffectively, it would seem the anticipation is worse than the dreaded event. Do you really believe Jesus was so weak as that he would succumb in such a way to that mental distress? I don't. Why do many Christians perceive Jesus as God, who is all powerful and then think he would be mentally weak when facing death by torture? If on the other hand one would think (as you d id below) that he suffered such in anticipation of taking on the sins of the world, then why could he not have taken upon himself our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane? He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin. DAVEH: In effect, you are saying his physical death paid the price of sin. And, since our physical death is a result of Adam's sin, Jesus had to die to atone for our sins, notwithstanding Adam's sin. Yet I perceive that many Christians fail to differentiate the double nature of salvation. Do you recognize that Jesus' resurrection is a separate issue from his atonement for our sins, Terry? until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done. DAVEH: I find that interesting. It had not occurred to me t hat you would feel that way. Do you know if that is perceived that way by most Christians? Terry Clifton wrote: I appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden much as I sweat out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to have my chest cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein from my leg and repaired the hoses feeding my heart. It is the waiting for something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be avoided. It is apprehension of what is to come. There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison. I would rather be killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester, but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of every human on Himself. The apprehension of a perfectly inn ocent person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin poss ible would be something you or I cannot possibly comprehend. He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin. He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the flogging, would have been much bloodier. A whip was used which had multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of flesh. Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before they could be nailed to the cross. Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage cannot move, and so you cannot breath. In order to breath, you must push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms. This is hard to do when any pressure on your feet c auses pain because of the spike that nailed them to the c ross. So the victim alternates, first breathing, then suffocating, first supporting himself with his
Re: [TruthTalk] The cross of Christ
There is no doubt that the cross was extremely important and emphasized by the primitive Christians, much more so than by most Christians today. DAVEH: I've found a few comments that suggest some early Christians were less than enamored by the cross The use of the cross as a symbol was condemned by at least one church father of the 3rd century CE because of its Pagan origins. The first appearance of a cross in Christian art is on a Vatican sarcophagus from the mid-5th Century. 11 It was a Greek cross with equal-length arms. Jesus' body was not shown. The first crucifixion scenes didn't appear in Christian art until the 7th century CE. The original cross symbol was in the form of a Tau Cross. It was so named because it looked like the letter "tau", or our letter "T". One author speculates that the Church may have copied the symbol from the Pagan Druids who made crosses in this form to represent the Thau (god). 7 They joined two limbs from oak trees. The Tau cross became associated with St. Philip who was allegedly crucified on such a cross in Phrygia. May Day, a major Druidic seasonal day of celebration, became St. Philip's Day. Later in Christian history, the Tau Cross became the Roman Cross that we are familiar with today. ** According to author Graydon F. Snyder: "[Today's]universal use of the sign of the cross makes more poignant the striking lack of crosses in early Christian remains, especially any specific reference to the event on Golgotha. Most scholars now agree that the cross as an artistic reference to the passion event cannot be found prior to the time of Constantine." ..The previous two comments are found at http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_symb.htm And Christian Symbols: Ancient and Modern by Child Colles claims.. In the first three centuries A.D. the cross was not openly used as a Christian symbol, for the early believers looked beyond the Crucifixion to the Resurrection, and the emphasis was not on the cross of suffering and humiliation but on the Promise of Life with Christ here in the world and hereafter in the life beyond the grave. ...which seems to contrast what you are claiming. David Miller wrote: DAVEH: Do you believe the Primitive Christians had that apprehension? Yes, absolutely. Just look at how much the New Testament writes about the cross. The earliest of the church fathers also wrote about the cross. Ignatius of the first century magnified the cross even more than Paul did. Polycarp, born in the first century and martyred in the middle of the second century, was a disciple of John. He said in one of his epistles that whosoever does not confess the testimony of the cross is of the devil. Justin Martyr of the early second century also wrote extensively on the cross. There is no doubt that the cross was extremely important and emphasized by the primitive Christians, much more so than by most Christians today. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] The job of the apostles was not to write the Bible,Matthew, Mrak (probably under the supervision of the Apostle Peter), John's gospel and letters, Paul's authorship including Hebrews, James, and (perhaps) Titus author all of the NT books except three(Luke/Acts andJude) and the apostles did not suddenly disappear once theBible was "complete."The recording of "scripture" ended with the death of John. Coincidence? I think not.Most of the apostles left us no Scripture at all, including the chief apostle, Jesus Christ himself.true. And I am not saying that they all did. But, if we were to delete Luke/Acts and Jude, we would still have all of NT teaching - and all of it done by or under the tutelage of the apostles. Most authors of the Bible were not apostles.We have Matthew, John, Paul, Peter and James writing 23 books and three writers authoring 4 books.It is doubtful that James the Lord's brother was an apostleand yet, 21 lines from now (not counting salutations and headings) you argue for the apostleship of James !! and Jude the Lord's brother probably was not either. The author below did not comment on Markthat author thought DM was aware of the opinion of many that Peter supervised the writing of Mark and gave Mark most of his information - since Mark was not around Christ as far we any of us knowor this other JudeJude was , indeed, an oversight but my point remains as restated above when he says, "with this group of men, we have the writings of all the NT scripture..." bsp;Then the author here casts modern day theologians intoprophets?Such could not be further from the truth. The theologians of today are more analogous to the scribes of Jesus day. Think about it. "Prophet" as in apostles and prophets, the foundation of the household of God (Eph 2:20) can have one of [at least] two meanings. The first, a prophet as one who predicts the future and the second, as one who reveals or explains the revelation of God. I think the later notion gives us a better fit, the apostles loose and bind, present revelation and the prophet (for all ages) continues to illuminate this revelation. I can't insist on this idea as excathedra, but I can certainly teach it. The effect of this teaching is important. If one is a prophet, has the ability to present and explain and excite the mind of the student and he/she does not --- what does that mean for them personally? If Bill Taylor, for example, is gifted with the ability to tie Chruch history and the Revelation of the written word and the reality of the Living Christ together into something that is a t least understood by the evangelist, the pastor, the teacher and he decides to do something else -- well, how should he view his stewardship of the gift given? And then there is the false assertion that all the miracles of the NT were performed by Jesus or one of the apostles. Let's look at what John actually said, shall we: The apostles were chargedwith world mission, binding and loosing and the performace of miracles as an extension (in the Spirit) of who they were. All the recorded miracles of the NT scripture are performed by Jesus or one of the apostles.The phrase "as an extension of who they were" is very important to me. All of what was promised in Mark 16: applies to the apostles. Peter could walk by and people were healed. Paul could be hung on the wall of ajail cell, knowing all the while that God had placed his opponents into his hands - that he would be the victor. Stephen is an exceptional case. He is singled out in scripture as being full o f faith and the Spirit and power. I certainly do not beleive that miracles ended with the passing of the apostles !! God continues to use men and women to this day to accomplish even the miraculous - it is a gift, one of many. But I do not believe in "faith healers." And why? Because I believe that only the apostles could do such things by way ofministry assignment , as a result of who they were andnot just how they were gifted. The apostles were the complete package. There is no reason to believe that they continued beyond the first century (except, perhaps, John). Consider Ananais who brought sight back to Sauland imparted to him theBaptism of the Holy Spirit, and Stephen who did many miracles among the people, as did the evangelistPhilip, preaching in Samaria. Following is something I wrote about apostles and prophets back in 1992. Although dated, perhaps it will help you in your thinking about apostles and prophets. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets Within the church , God has placed apostles, prophets,evangelists, pastors and teacher. There collective ministries are given a threefold purpose, but
