[Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia@20 Book of Essays open for Draft Review and Comment

[Jake Orlowitz]

Hi all,

Joseph Reagle, of "Good Faith Collaboration" fame, has a new book project
looking at Wikipedia 20 years after its inception.

There are 20-30 essays up for draft review and comments which are qjuite
diverse and interesting.

Check them out and leave comments: https://wikipedia20.pubpub.org/

Cheers,
Jake Orlowitz
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New Code of Conduct committee candidates

[Amir Sarabadani]

Hey,
People in the committee have meetings from time to time, so they know each
other but we don't have any "dedicated" person to keep track of real
identities/pseudonym of the members.

HTH
Best

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 7:55 PM effe iets anders 
wrote:

> Hi Amir,
>
> Thanks. I agree with your assessment.
>
> Probably asking for the obvious: is there someone on the committee that
> knows the real world identity (and the other way around, the online
> pseudonym) of each member, and could flag a COI/suggest to abstain if need
> be? (aside from people refraining themselves)
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 9:32 AM Amir Sarabadani 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> > (As a member, not talking on behalf of the committee)
> > The committee is a body of volunteers and they can't be forced to
> disclose
> > their real identities. There's no such policy in the CoC and if you think
> > it should be added, feel free start a discussion on CoC amendment [0] but
> > in the mean time, we are not allowed and won't disclose people's real
> > identities. The committee itself refrain involving people who have
> conflict
> > of interest with the case (whether it involves them or someone close)
> >
> > [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Amendments
> >
> > Best
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 7:43 AM Thomas Townsend 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Amir
> > >
> > > May we not know the real names of the committee members, as opposed to
> > > their pseudonyms?  Surely that is necessary, both as a matter of
> > > general principle, and specifically in case it were ever to turn out
> > > that a member of the committee might be involved in a complaint.
> > >
> > > The Turnip
> > >
> > > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 10:39, Amir Sarabadani 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello everyone,
> > > > The deadline for the public feedback was yesterday. Some objections
> > have
> > > > raised but committee decided not to change the structure of committee
> > and
> > > > its candidates. It means the new committee with the given members
> > starts
> > > > serving as of today until 19 June 2020.
> > > >
> > > > Please join me on thanking Nuria and Rosalie for their service and
> > > welcome
> > > > Tonina and MusikAnimal to the main members of the committee.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 9:13 PM Amir Sarabadani 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > > The committee has finished selecting new members and the new
> > committee
> > > > > candidates are (In alphabetical order):
> > > > >
> > > > >- Amir Sarabadani
> > > > >- Lucie-Aimée Kaffee
> > > > >- MusikAnimal
> > > > >- Tonina Zhelyazkova
> > > > >- Tony Thomas
> > > > >
> > > > > And auxiliary members will be (In alphabetical order):
> > > > >
> > > > >- Huji
> > > > >- Matanya
> > > > >- Nuria Ruiz
> > > > >- Rosalie Perside
> > > > >- Tpt
> > > > >
> > > > > You can read more about the members in [0]
> > > > >
> > > > > The changes are:
> > > > > * Nuria and Rosalie are moving from main member to auxilary members
> > > > > * MusikAnimal is moving from auxilary member to main
> > > > > * Tonina Zhelyazkova is joining the main members
> > > > >
> > > > > This is not the final structure. According to the CoC [1], the
> > current
> > > > > committee publishes the new members and call for public feedback
> for
> > > *six
> > > > > weeks* and after that, the current committtee might apply changes
> to
> > > the
> > > > > structure based on public feedback.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please let the committee know if you have any concern regarding the
> > > > > members and its structure until *19 June 2019* and after that, the
> > new
> > > > > committee will be in effect and will serve for a year.
> > > > >
> > > > > [0]:
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee/Members/Candidates
> > > > > [1]:
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee#Selection_of_new_members
> > > > >
> > > > > Amir, On behalf of the Code of Conduct committee
> > > > > Best
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Amir (he/him)
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> >
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New Code of Conduct committee candidates

[effe iets anders]

Hi Amir,

Thanks. I agree with your assessment.

Probably asking for the obvious: is there someone on the committee that
knows the real world identity (and the other way around, the online
pseudonym) of each member, and could flag a COI/suggest to abstain if need
be? (aside from people refraining themselves)

Lodewijk

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 9:32 AM Amir Sarabadani  wrote:

> Hello,
> (As a member, not talking on behalf of the committee)
> The committee is a body of volunteers and they can't be forced to disclose
> their real identities. There's no such policy in the CoC and if you think
> it should be added, feel free start a discussion on CoC amendment [0] but
> in the mean time, we are not allowed and won't disclose people's real
> identities. The committee itself refrain involving people who have conflict
> of interest with the case (whether it involves them or someone close)
>
> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Amendments
>
> Best
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 7:43 AM Thomas Townsend 
> wrote:
>
> > Amir
> >
> > May we not know the real names of the committee members, as opposed to
> > their pseudonyms?  Surely that is necessary, both as a matter of
> > general principle, and specifically in case it were ever to turn out
> > that a member of the committee might be involved in a complaint.
> >
> > The Turnip
> >
> > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 10:39, Amir Sarabadani 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello everyone,
> > > The deadline for the public feedback was yesterday. Some objections
> have
> > > raised but committee decided not to change the structure of committee
> and
> > > its candidates. It means the new committee with the given members
> starts
> > > serving as of today until 19 June 2020.
> > >
> > > Please join me on thanking Nuria and Rosalie for their service and
> > welcome
> > > Tonina and MusikAnimal to the main members of the committee.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 9:13 PM Amir Sarabadani 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > > The committee has finished selecting new members and the new
> committee
> > > > candidates are (In alphabetical order):
> > > >
> > > >- Amir Sarabadani
> > > >- Lucie-Aimée Kaffee
> > > >- MusikAnimal
> > > >- Tonina Zhelyazkova
> > > >- Tony Thomas
> > > >
> > > > And auxiliary members will be (In alphabetical order):
> > > >
> > > >- Huji
> > > >- Matanya
> > > >- Nuria Ruiz
> > > >- Rosalie Perside
> > > >- Tpt
> > > >
> > > > You can read more about the members in [0]
> > > >
> > > > The changes are:
> > > > * Nuria and Rosalie are moving from main member to auxilary members
> > > > * MusikAnimal is moving from auxilary member to main
> > > > * Tonina Zhelyazkova is joining the main members
> > > >
> > > > This is not the final structure. According to the CoC [1], the
> current
> > > > committee publishes the new members and call for public feedback for
> > *six
> > > > weeks* and after that, the current committtee might apply changes to
> > the
> > > > structure based on public feedback.
> > > >
> > > > Please let the committee know if you have any concern regarding the
> > > > members and its structure until *19 June 2019* and after that, the
> new
> > > > committee will be in effect and will serve for a year.
> > > >
> > > > [0]:
> > > >
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee/Members/Candidates
> > > > [1]:
> > > >
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee#Selection_of_new_members
> > > >
> > > > Amir, On behalf of the Code of Conduct committee
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Amir (he/him)
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New Code of Conduct committee candidates

[Amir Sarabadani]

Hello,
(As a member, not talking on behalf of the committee)
The committee is a body of volunteers and they can't be forced to disclose
their real identities. There's no such policy in the CoC and if you think
it should be added, feel free start a discussion on CoC amendment [0] but
in the mean time, we are not allowed and won't disclose people's real
identities. The committee itself refrain involving people who have conflict
of interest with the case (whether it involves them or someone close)

[0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Amendments

Best

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 7:43 AM Thomas Townsend 
wrote:

> Amir
>
> May we not know the real names of the committee members, as opposed to
> their pseudonyms?  Surely that is necessary, both as a matter of
> general principle, and specifically in case it were ever to turn out
> that a member of the committee might be involved in a complaint.
>
> The Turnip
>
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 10:39, Amir Sarabadani  wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> > The deadline for the public feedback was yesterday. Some objections have
> > raised but committee decided not to change the structure of committee and
> > its candidates. It means the new committee with the given members starts
> > serving as of today until 19 June 2020.
> >
> > Please join me on thanking Nuria and Rosalie for their service and
> welcome
> > Tonina and MusikAnimal to the main members of the committee.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 9:13 PM Amir Sarabadani 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > > The committee has finished selecting new members and the new committee
> > > candidates are (In alphabetical order):
> > >
> > >- Amir Sarabadani
> > >- Lucie-Aimée Kaffee
> > >- MusikAnimal
> > >- Tonina Zhelyazkova
> > >- Tony Thomas
> > >
> > > And auxiliary members will be (In alphabetical order):
> > >
> > >- Huji
> > >- Matanya
> > >- Nuria Ruiz
> > >- Rosalie Perside
> > >- Tpt
> > >
> > > You can read more about the members in [0]
> > >
> > > The changes are:
> > > * Nuria and Rosalie are moving from main member to auxilary members
> > > * MusikAnimal is moving from auxilary member to main
> > > * Tonina Zhelyazkova is joining the main members
> > >
> > > This is not the final structure. According to the CoC [1], the current
> > > committee publishes the new members and call for public feedback for
> *six
> > > weeks* and after that, the current committtee might apply changes to
> the
> > > structure based on public feedback.
> > >
> > > Please let the committee know if you have any concern regarding the
> > > members and its structure until *19 June 2019* and after that, the new
> > > committee will be in effect and will serve for a year.
> > >
> > > [0]:
> > >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee/Members/Candidates
> > > [1]:
> > >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee#Selection_of_new_members
> > >
> > > Amir, On behalf of the Code of Conduct committee
> > > Best
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Amir (he/him)
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 



-- 
Amir (he/him)
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Robert Fernandez]

If you want to see the entire world through the lens of Kafka, be my
guest, but we can't make policy in this movement based on that.

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 10:01 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
 wrote:
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be subject 
> to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and having no way 
> to defend yourself appeal.
>
> Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only happening 
> to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in first person 
> how flawed the system is.
>
> Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total lack 
> of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already 
> experimented it failing in first hand.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
>
> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez  
> escreveu:
>>
>> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
>> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
>> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
>> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
>> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
>> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>>
>> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
>> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
>> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
>> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates
>> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to
>> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle
>> > for severe harassment itself.
>> >
>> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really
>> > be looked at.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
>> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
>> >
>> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
>> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
>> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>> > >
>> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
>> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged 
>> > > offenders,
>> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
>> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
>> > > harrassment.
>> > >
>> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
>> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
>> > >
>> > > Nattes à chat
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
>> > > écrit :
>> > >
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the 
>> > > >> Wikimedia
>> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
>> > > someone
>> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
>> > > to
>> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
>> > > affected
>> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
>> > > you
>> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> > > >> feelings of others."
>> > > >>
>> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
>> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect 
>> > > >> on
>> > > >> this thread.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
>> > > > energy to write.
>> > > >
>> > > > Chris
>> > > > ___
>> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > 
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ___
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > 
>> > ___
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
>> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Isaac Olatunde]

Hi Natacha

I am not sure this thread is about whether T action was in order or not.

Aside the recent WP:FRAM, I am not aware of a single instance where T
action's was criticized largely by the community or those you described as
official representative of movement/chapters. Most opinion expressed at
WP:FRAM are mere speculations and relies entirely on what  Fram thought
might be the reason for their ban.

That being said, some members of the community who are familiar with
Romaine's past works considered them valuable to our movement and I think
that should be respected. Interpreting their comments as endorsement of the
behaviour that led to T's action and criticising official representative
of chapters who pen down a farewell note is inappropriate.

Romaine, there are other ways to volunteer and as you may already be aware,
you don't have to attend Wikimedia events to add value to our movement.
There are plenty of ways to make a difference. Personally, I appreciate
your on-wiki works and I hope you will continue the good works. But if you
want to quit contributing altogether, I wish you all the best in your
future endeavor.

Good luck.

Isaac


On Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 6:57 AM Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:

> First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>
> I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
> showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> harrassment.
>
> How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> questionned by official members of our movement?
>
> Nattes à chat
>
>
>
>
>
> Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> écrit :
>
> >>
> >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> someone
> >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> to
> >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> affected
> >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> you
> >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> >> feelings of others."
> >>
> >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> >> this thread.
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > energy to write.
> >
> > Chris
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Camelia,

My comment was not about harassment, was about systemic and rampant lack of
due process on the part of the WMF.
And it's not drama, it's reality.

Paulo

camelia boban  escreveu no dia sexta, 21/06/2019
à(s) 15:24:

> Oh my Gosh Paulo, can you stop this dramma about yourself and your problem
> with everything is connected with WMF?
>
> To others, please have respect for the both parts engaged in this sad
> story and do what Geert asked, stop discussing about this specific
> conflict publicly.
> If you want to talk more about harassment (in a generic way), then open
> another thread.
>
> Thank you,
> Camelia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Il giorno ven 21 giu 2019 alle ore 16:05 Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> False accusation with the respective punishment, that is. If it was just a
>> false accusation I would not care that much about it, though I obviously
>> dislike being falsely accused.
>>
>> Paulo
>>
>> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 15:01, Paulo Santos Perneta <
>> paulospern...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>>
>> > Hi Robert,
>> >
>> > I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be
>> > subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and
>> > having no way to defend yourself appeal.
>> >
>> > Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only
>> > happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in
>> > first person how flawed the system is.
>> >
>> > Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total
>> > lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who
>> already
>> > experimented it failing in first hand.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez <
>> > wikigamal...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>> >
>> >> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
>> >> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
>> >> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
>> >> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
>> >> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
>> >> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>> >>
>> >> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
>> >> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
>> >> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process
>> to
>> >> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
>> >> creates
>> >> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool
>> >> easy to
>> >> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
>> >> vehicle
>> >> > for severe harassment itself.
>> >> >
>> >> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
>> >> really
>> >> > be looked at.
>> >> >
>> >> > Best,
>> >> > Paulo
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
>> >> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
>> >> >
>> >> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
>> >> that I
>> >> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable
>> and
>> >> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
>> >> official
>> >> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
>> >> offenders,
>> >> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
>> >> alleged
>> >> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
>> >> > > harrassment.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
>> >> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Nattes à chat
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating 
>> a
>> >> > > écrit :
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
>> >> Wikimedia
>> >> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to
>> supporting
>> >> > > someone
>> >> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that
>> they
>> >> had
>> >> > > to
>> >> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
>> >> > > affected
>> >> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help
>> you
>> >> when
>> >> > > you
>> >> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> >> > > >> feelings of others."
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and
>> why
>> >> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[camelia boban]

Oh my Gosh Paulo, can you stop this dramma about yourself and your problem
with everything is connected with WMF?

To others, please have respect for the both parts engaged in this sad story
and do what Geert asked, stop discussing about this specific conflict
publicly.
If you want to talk more about harassment (in a generic way), then open
another thread.

Thank you,
Camelia










Il giorno ven 21 giu 2019 alle ore 16:05 Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulospern...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> False accusation with the respective punishment, that is. If it was just a
> false accusation I would not care that much about it, though I obviously
> dislike being falsely accused.
>
> Paulo
>
> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 15:01, Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
> > Hi Robert,
> >
> > I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be
> > subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and
> > having no way to defend yourself appeal.
> >
> > Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only
> > happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in
> > first person how flawed the system is.
> >
> > Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total
> > lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who
> already
> > experimented it failing in first hand.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez <
> > wikigamal...@gmail.com> escreveu:
> >
> >> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
> >> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
> >> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
> >> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
> >> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
> >> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
> >>
> >> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
> >> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
> >> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
> >>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process
> to
> >> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
> >> creates
> >> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool
> >> easy to
> >> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
> >> vehicle
> >> > for severe harassment itself.
> >> >
> >> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
> >> really
> >> > be looked at.
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> > Paulo
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> >> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
> >> >
> >> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
> >> that I
> >> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable
> and
> >> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> >> > >
> >> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
> >> official
> >> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> >> offenders,
> >> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
> >> alleged
> >> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> >> > > harrassment.
> >> > >
> >> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> >> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
> >> > >
> >> > > Nattes à chat
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating 
> a
> >> > > écrit :
> >> > >
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> >> Wikimedia
> >> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to
> supporting
> >> > > someone
> >> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that
> they
> >> had
> >> > > to
> >> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> >> > > affected
> >> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
> >> when
> >> > > you
> >> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> >> > > >> feelings of others."
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and
> why
> >> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
> >> reflect on
> >> > > >> this thread.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon
> >> the
> >> > > > energy to write.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Chris
> >> > > > ___
> >> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
I am afraid that this is a misrepresentation. Romaine is a "self confessed"
person with Asperger. Within our community we have an overrepresentation
with people with a mental health issue. This is to be expected. This is
typically not appreciated hardly ever understood. I have noticed before
that people with a mental health issue got into problems including the
imposition of a life time ban.

I do not know about trained and responsible but when there is no experience
with mental health, given the composition of our community when there is no
understanding for mental health issues, I do not think trained and
responsible is justified. The notion that we are dealing with a "mob" is
not helpful, it alienates the people you target with your speech. It
prevents us from getting to an understanding.\
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 15:43, Robert Fernandez 
wrote:

> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>
> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>  wrote:
> >
> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
> creates
> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy
> to
> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
> vehicle
> > for severe harassment itself.
> >
> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
> really
> > be looked at.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
> >
> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
> that I
> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> > >
> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
> official
> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> offenders,
> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
> alleged
> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > > harrassment.
> > >
> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
> > >
> > > Nattes à chat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> > > écrit :
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> Wikimedia
> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > > someone
> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
> had
> > > to
> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > > affected
> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
> when
> > > you
> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > > >> feelings of others."
> > > >>
> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
> reflect on
> > > >> this thread.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > > energy to write.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

False accusation with the respective punishment, that is. If it was just a
false accusation I would not care that much about it, though I obviously
dislike being falsely accused.

Paulo

A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 15:01, Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulospern...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> Hi Robert,
>
> I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be
> subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and
> having no way to defend yourself appeal.
>
> Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only
> happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in
> first person how flawed the system is.
>
> Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total
> lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already
> experimented it failing in first hand.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
>
> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez <
> wikigamal...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
>> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
>> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
>> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
>> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
>> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
>> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>>
>> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
>> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
>> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
>> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
>> creates
>> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool
>> easy to
>> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
>> vehicle
>> > for severe harassment itself.
>> >
>> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
>> really
>> > be looked at.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
>> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
>> >
>> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
>> that I
>> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
>> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>> > >
>> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
>> official
>> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
>> offenders,
>> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
>> alleged
>> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
>> > > harrassment.
>> > >
>> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
>> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
>> > >
>> > > Nattes à chat
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
>> > > écrit :
>> > >
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
>> Wikimedia
>> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
>> > > someone
>> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
>> had
>> > > to
>> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
>> > > affected
>> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
>> when
>> > > you
>> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> > > >> feelings of others."
>> > > >>
>> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
>> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
>> reflect on
>> > > >> this thread.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon
>> the
>> > > > energy to write.
>> > > >
>> > > > Chris
>> > > > ___
>> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > > Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > 
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ___
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> ,
>> > > 
>> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Hi Robert,

I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be
subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and
having no way to defend yourself appeal.

Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only
happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in
first person how flawed the system is.

Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total
lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already
experimented it failing in first hand.

Best,
Paulo



A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez 
escreveu:

> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>
> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>  wrote:
> >
> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
> creates
> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy
> to
> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
> vehicle
> > for severe harassment itself.
> >
> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
> really
> > be looked at.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
> >
> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
> that I
> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> > >
> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
> official
> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> offenders,
> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
> alleged
> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > > harrassment.
> > >
> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
> > >
> > > Nattes à chat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> > > écrit :
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> Wikimedia
> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > > someone
> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
> had
> > > to
> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > > affected
> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
> when
> > > you
> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > > >> feelings of others."
> > > >>
> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
> reflect on
> > > >> this thread.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > > energy to write.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Robert Fernandez]

At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?

Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
the popularity contests of the mob any day.


On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
 wrote:
>
> Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
> verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates
> a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to
> abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle
> for severe harassment itself.
>
> This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really
> be looked at.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
>
>
>
> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
>
> > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> >
> > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
> > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > harrassment.
> >
> > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> > questionned by official members of our movement?
> >
> > Nattes à chat
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> > écrit :
> >
> > >>
> > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > someone
> > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> > to
> > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > affected
> > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> > you
> > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > >> feelings of others."
> > >>
> > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> > >> this thread.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > energy to write.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Robert Fernandez]

You do realize that you can email Romaine privately?


On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 1:18 AM Gerard Meijssen
 wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> You do not get it. For me this is about saying goodbye. Saying goodbye to
> someone I/we truly value. Saying goodbye to someone who we owe gratitude.
> This was not allowed to be, we say goodbye and we are told that we are
> wrong because a situation where the POV expressed is that we cannot say
> goodbye, express our gratitude because they are / feel aggrieved.
>
> I have no opinion on why this situation exists, what transpired. What I
> object to is that there is no room given for our feeling of loss. That is
> an injustice in its own right.
> Thanks,
>GerardM
>
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 00:26, Pierre-Selim  wrote:
>
> > Her POV ?
> >
> > Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
> >
> > What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
> >
> > It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
> > wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported.
> > Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by
> > Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
> >
> > Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have
> > reported Romaine might be reading this.
> >
> > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen 
> > a
> > écrit :
> >
> > > Caroline,
> > > For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
> > > the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
> > all
> > > he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
> > not
> > > know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
> > may
> > > help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > > feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
> > > do not know you at all.
> > >
> > > What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
> > you
> > > stuck in your pov.
> > > Thanks,
> > >  GerardM
> > >
> > > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
> > and
> > > > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> > > > willingness to grow and learn.
> > > >
> > > > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
> > > right
> > > > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
> > > you
> > > > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> > > >
> > > > Caroline
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During  a
> > > écrit :
> > > >
> > > > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> > > unfortunate
> > > > > outcome
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki  > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >  Dear community,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > > > > attend
> > > > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
> > me,
> > > > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
> > feel
> > > > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > > > individuals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dennis C. During
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > 
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Fæ]

Thank you for a sensible response.

Hopefully Wikimedia Belgium will be able later to publish some agreed
recommendations or conclusions, both for how this case could have been
handled more appropriately, and how the WMF procedures or policies
should improve better to protect the interests of all those involved
in allegations of harassment or similar at our events.

As for others making stereotypical statements about "victims" and
"perpetrators", just shut up please. This was not a criminal case, the
police were not called, and this is not about you and your need for
virtue signalling. There are real people involved and the only thing
on the table has been an allegation which should have been resolved at
the time, not left with toxic fallout that appears to have now damaged
the reputations of both parties, along with Wikimedia organizations.

Thanks,
Fae
-- 
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 09:48, Geert Van Pamel  wrote:
>
> The initial message was a private message from Romaine (WMBE Board member)
> on his own initiative; not verified, nor approved by (the Board of)
> Wikimedia Belgium. Please read this reply carefully in order to try to bring
> more clarity.
>
> I have immediately notified Romaine that he abused his function in the WMBE
> Board to communicate private matters on the general mailinglist.
>
> Since Monday I am in private contact, both with T and the management of
> Wikimedia Nederland to follow-up this dispute. This caused delay in replying
> to this message. The Wikimedia Belgium Board will continue to evaluate the
> situation and take further measures.
>
> Wikimedia Belgium wants to apologize for any moral damage that the initial
> message provoked.
>
> What one member of the general assembly did propose is that an internal
> audit could be requested to investigate the general behavior, the working,
> the completeness of procedures, and the treatment of cases by the Trust and
> Safety (T), and the grants team.
>
> Specifically, we have encountered as a chapter repeatedly during the last
> several years a lack of appeal, both in the T complaints handling, and in
> the grants team handling sAPG requests.
>
> Specifically in the T handling procedures, the rights of the alleged
> offender are not sufficiently guaranteed. There is a possibility that rumors
> are invoking a punishment without careful verification of the facts, without
> the defendants being sanctioned in a neutral way, and without taking into
> account certain handicaps like hard-hearing, or autism.
>
> That being said, please stop discussing this specific conflict publicly,
> because a lot of important details are missing, are single-sided
> interpretations, or even completely wrong.
>
>
>
> -- Geert Van Pamel, chair of Wikimedia Belgium
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates
a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to
abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle
for severe harassment itself.

This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really
be looked at.

Best,
Paulo





A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:

> First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>
> I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
> showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> harrassment.
>
> How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> questionned by official members of our movement?
>
> Nattes à chat
>
>
>
>
>
> Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> écrit :
>
> >>
> >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> someone
> >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> to
> >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> affected
> >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> you
> >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> >> feelings of others."
> >>
> >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> >> this thread.
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > energy to write.
> >
> > Chris
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Foundation management of volunteers

[Martijn Hoekstra]

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 07:43 Mister Thrapostibongles <
thrapostibong...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Martin
>
>
> > No, I'm saying that it's ridiculous to judge wikipedia on its policy that
> > citing itself is disallowed.
> >
>
> Perhaps, then, rather than telling us what it is that you don't agree with,
> you would like to propound your own position, and in your own words.


I'm under no such obligation, and I'm not much inclined to argue with you
on the details - but I do want to call out when something so egregiously
off base is put forward as the assertion that wikipedia is unreliable
*because* it has a policy that prevents it from citing itself, while the
very opposite is true: that any source would completely destroy its
credibility if it would cite itself and claim that is a sign of reliability.

That's the topic at hand here. My views on the reliability on wikipedia are
off topic for that discussion. But I'll  humor you and answer it anyway.


Do
> you believe that Wikipedia is a success?


It accomplishes bringing true information to many people, which I'd a
succes. It very occasionally brings false information to people, which is a
problem.

Improvements to reach, localization, and reliably are all important.


That it merits the description
> of "encyclopaedia"?


Yes, that's a reasonable description  though it is broader in scope.


In particular that it is reliable?
>


Reliable is not a yes/no answer, but you can rely on wikipedia to be likely
correct, much like more traditional encyclopedias. In addition, you can
often rely on it to cite its sources, though not always, and arguably not
often enough. You cant trust its editorial board though, as it has none, in
stark contrast to traditional encyclopedias.


> Thrapostibongles
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Geert Van Pamel]

The initial message was a private message from Romaine (WMBE Board member)
on his own initiative; not verified, nor approved by (the Board of)
Wikimedia Belgium. Please read this reply carefully in order to try to bring
more clarity.

I have immediately notified Romaine that he abused his function in the WMBE
Board to communicate private matters on the general mailinglist. 

Since Monday I am in private contact, both with T and the management of
Wikimedia Nederland to follow-up this dispute. This caused delay in replying
to this message. The Wikimedia Belgium Board will continue to evaluate the
situation and take further measures.

Wikimedia Belgium wants to apologize for any moral damage that the initial
message provoked.

What one member of the general assembly did propose is that an internal
audit could be requested to investigate the general behavior, the working,
the completeness of procedures, and the treatment of cases by the Trust and
Safety (T), and the grants team.

Specifically, we have encountered as a chapter repeatedly during the last
several years a lack of appeal, both in the T complaints handling, and in
the grants team handling sAPG requests.

Specifically in the T handling procedures, the rights of the alleged
offender are not sufficiently guaranteed. There is a possibility that rumors
are invoking a punishment without careful verification of the facts, without
the defendants being sanctioned in a neutral way, and without taking into
account certain handicaps like hard-hearing, or autism. 

That being said, please stop discussing this specific conflict publicly,
because a lot of important details are missing, are single-sided
interpretations, or even completely wrong.

 

-- Geert Van Pamel, chair of Wikimedia Belgium

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Ilario Valdelli]

The main problem happens when someone considers to don't have received a
fair assessment.

I understand that the T must have a certain role, but I am sorry for the
T, the criticisms are part of this role.

Considering that every decision will be accepted unconditionally is not
suitable. To ensure a fair trial, in general two levels of evaluation are
often created with two different "courts" so those who consider themselves
to have been wrongly judged (people can make mistakes), can ask another
"independent" court to be evaluated and to confirm or to reject the first
level. Here it seems to me that T always considers itself on the right
side but this sense of infallibility is not the feeling that the community
has.

Apart from all what strikes me is that a person must publicly say his
sexual tendencies because he believes that he has not been judged correctly
and excused, apart from the moral lesson, this thing is very sad because
the T has produced an act that has committed an even more serious act.

Imagine that the part recognized in error is right, how will the T be
excused? Will it write a letter of public apology?

Kind regards

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 9:31 AM Philip Kopetzky 
wrote:

> Questioning is ok - we might indeed need to introduce some oversight, but
> to be honest, I doubt this would solve the trust issue as long as some
> people demand full transparency where there can never be full transparency.
>
> Speculating and accusing victims of being the actual perpetrators,
> believing the perpetrators more than the victims, perpetrators depicting
> themselves as the victims, is a sad default behaviour in our community.
> This needs to change. Seriously.
>
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 08:17, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
> wrote:
>
> > How can we BE safe in the movement if we cannot question the decisions of
> > T? (when they appear questionable and unsafe)
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:57 AM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all
> >
> > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> >
> > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> offenders,
> > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > harrassment.
> >
> > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> > questionned by official members of our movement?
> >
> > Nattes à chat
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> > écrit :
> >
> > >>
> > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> Wikimedia
> > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > someone
> > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> > to
> > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > affected
> > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> > you
> > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > >> feelings of others."
> > >>
> > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect
> on
> > >> this thread.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > energy to write.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Philip Kopetzky]

Questioning is ok - we might indeed need to introduce some oversight, but
to be honest, I doubt this would solve the trust issue as long as some
people demand full transparency where there can never be full transparency.

Speculating and accusing victims of being the actual perpetrators,
believing the perpetrators more than the victims, perpetrators depicting
themselves as the victims, is a sad default behaviour in our community.
This needs to change. Seriously.

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 08:17, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> How can we BE safe in the movement if we cannot question the decisions of
> T? (when they appear questionable and unsafe)
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:57 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all
>
> First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>
> I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
> showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> harrassment.
>
> How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> questionned by official members of our movement?
>
> Nattes à chat
>
>
>
>
>
> Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> écrit :
>
> >>
> >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> someone
> >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> to
> >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> affected
> >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> you
> >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> >> feelings of others."
> >>
> >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> >> this thread.
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > energy to write.
> >
> > Chris
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Peter Southwood]

How can we BE safe in the movement if we cannot question the decisions of T? 
(when they appear questionable and unsafe)
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:57 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I 
personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and wise. I 
totally support and trust their judgement. 

I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official 
chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders, 
showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged 
victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment. 

How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are questionned by 
official members of our movement? 

Nattes à chat





Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a écrit :

>> 
>> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
>> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone
>> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
>> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
>> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you
>> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> feelings of others."
>> 
>> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
>> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
>> this thread.
> 
> 
> Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> energy to write.
> 
> Chris
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 


___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 



___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,