Modern 4D Skills...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

For those seasoned developers of 4D v2 -> v16, before the days of ORDA, that 
want to start programming new projects (or enhancing old projects) with the 
current 4D best practices, is there a document that contrasts the old and new 
ways of accomplishing common tasks and where the benefit of the new way is 
stated? What’s the recommended way to get up top speed on the new 4D goodness? 
:)

Thanks,

Rob

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[OFF] Domain Purchase & Hosting...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Best place to buy new domains? Does it really matter?  I have a need to snatch 
a few domains. Last one was bought via 1and1 (now IONOS). Where do you shop?

Also, is there a certain hosting company that you use for web hosting. I have 
some machines in data centers that use 4D directly but in this case the web 
server will be separate.

Thanks,

Rob
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[OFF] Premise wiring, who's the Mac-Daddy?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

What premise wiring products fro CAT-6 or better? Back in the 90s I used 
Hubbell Premise Wiring and it was definitely a premium experience. Now it looks 
like the Belden RevConnect system is the new Hubbell. What jacks/Mod-plug 
manufacturers do you prefer? Have you used RevConnect?

Thanks,

R
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Re: 4D v13 web service error: -9926

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Hi Lutz,

At the moment, I don’t have access to the source code for this project but it 
was running for years without a problem. I’ll dig deeper, thanks for your input.

Robert

> On Apr 2, 2020, at 1:55 AM, Epperlein, Lutz (agendo) via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> It may related to the XML content of your SOAP request or of response. Did 
> you check that? Maybe you want to access some not existing elements.
> 9926 means 
> -9926 The referenced element is invalid.
> 
> So it could be something wrong with your parsing code. But I'm guessing ...

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Re: 4D v13 web service error: -9926

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Where oh where are your -9926 thoughts?

R

> On Apr 1, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> With a somewhat older Mac-based, v13.6-based, 4D application running with 
> legacy Web Application Server license that has been running unaltered for 
> several months any idea why I might be getting a -9926 web service error? I’m 
> noticing some orders are not transmitting (SOAP calls)…don’t see any reason 
> why. When I check them out, its usually the next day now and the only thing I 
> see is that the request date is the day before the transmit date…so I adjust 
> it to the current date and then they go through…but they were current when 
> sent to the queue. Thoughts?

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4D v13 web service error: -9926

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

With a somewhat older Mac-based, v13.6-based, 4D application running with 
legacy Web Application Server license that has been running unaltered for 
several months any idea why I might be getting a -9926 web service error? I’m 
noticing some orders are not transmitting (SOAP calls)…don’t see any reason 
why. When I check them out, its usually the next day now and the only thing I 
see is that the request date is the day before the transmit date…so I adjust it 
to the current date and then they go through…but they were current when sent to 
the queue. Thoughts?

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: Why did 4D kill the Solutions Guide?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Although, I have not changed my Dev info for years, there was no need to since 
my information remained current. I was not aware that any data was dated or 
that there was a problem in any way with the solutions guide. Also, I’ve never 
heard a word that there was a problem with it. I always enjoyed it as one of 
the partner perks. 

R

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 14, 2020, at 6:56 PM, Charles Miller via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> I think the answer is more complex. Firstly when you looked there was a
> paucity of developers listed. It made 4D look even more small than they
> really are. Second. I know that Tracy had reached out to all developers to
> update their listings. Most do not so were really out of date. The last
> time I looked and it was available you could search for a developer in many
> states and find no one.
> If enough developers will agree to update their pages and infomercial, I
> would bet it would come back
> 
> Hope this helps.

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[OFF] How to install 4D Demo?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

This past week, I was associating with some Linux professionals and I wanted to 
show them 4D. Since I did not have a licensed version of 4D with me at the 
time, I attempted to install and run a demo version. Unfortunately, after a lot 
of effort, and not being able to reach my usual sales people (normally VERY 
reliable and available), I could not get the license to work. As a last ditch 
effort I created a new 4D account and there was always a problem with the 
license. So, what’s the secret handshake?  I asked Michael at 4D about this 
today. He agreed that it was terrible that I could not easily run a demo but he 
had no immediate solution. Yes, he offered to transfer me to Tech Support but 
the need to install a demo had passed, so I did not accept that option. 
Thoughts?

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: Why did 4D kill the Solutions Guide?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I would love to see it restored, it was a benefit to the developers represented 
and to decision makers wanting to see what 4D developers were in their area. 
Could it be that this was a conflict with 4D’s own professional services? I 
asked Michael (covering 4D sales) today, “when was the Solution’s Guide 
removed?”, after a brief hold, they did not know when, only that it was not 
recent. 

So, what else is missing from the Silver-level partner program…? 

Thanks,

Robert

> On Mar 13, 2020, at 6:49 PM, John DeSoi via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I'm also curious because I previously used the link below to go to the 
> partner site and create tech support requests. This seemed like the only 
> avenue to report bugs for a non-beta version. Now it just redirects to 
> https://us.4d.com .
> 
> http://partnercentral.4d.com/ 
> 
> John DeSoi, Ph.D.

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[OFF] Where is Randall Wolf?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

For a very long while now, I’ve been missing my friend Randall Wolf…..  I have 
some suspicions on what could have happened but nothing confirmed. So, what 
happened to Randall?

Thanks,

Robert
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Why did 4D kill the Solutions Guide?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

One of the benefits of being a 4D partner was the ability to be represented in 
the online solutions guide (previously shown on the 4D web site), when and why 
did 4D take this away? Enquiring minds want to know!

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: [OFF] Mojave Backup Server Authentication Fail

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Disaster averted…. After restarting both machines, and re-adding the TM 
destination, it’s working as expected. I’m used to working with Linux servers 
as of late and did not think that restarting the OS would make a difference. I 
miss the old days when we did not have to power cycle devices.

Thanks,

Robert

> On Sep 13, 2019, at 12:26 AM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> It's sad that Apple is so busy designing dongles and thinking about new 
> iPhones that making basic Mac software work as it should is not on the 
> table...

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Re: Selection-Based Listbox Sizing/Printing...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Hi Adam, normally each list box will have a different number of rows, but 
typically in the 1-3 range. This page (tight with many other objects) contains 
several note fields below these list boxes and where they can grow as needed. 
Optimally it would be best if objects grew as needed and spilled onto a second 
page if needed.

One thought I had would be to populate a TEXT var with the listbox data and set 
that to print variable frame… It seems like a kluge and that a better solution 
might be available.

Thanks,

Robert


> On Jul 12, 2019, at 3:15 PM, Adam Bevan via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Robert,
> 
> I take it that listbox 1 could have more or less rows than listbox 2.
> You would like to show each row of both listboxes.
> 
> This would depend on the customer and if there is enough room on the page
> to display all rows of both listboxes.
> 
> You could limit the number of rows printed on the initial page, say 5 rows.
> If there are more than the 5 rows add a comment "continued on page X".
> On page "X" you could then continue printing the listbox rows.

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Stylesheet Search?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Is there a way to search for a specific Stylesheet? I inherited a DB where many 
objects reference a blank stylesheet name. I guess I could create a stylesheet 
with a blank name but I’d prefer to find all of the objects that are 
referencing an non existent stylesheet.

Thanks,

Robert
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Selection-Based Listbox Sizing/Printing...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

When printing a form with Print Record where you have two list boxes beside 
each other, how might you define the size of the listbox to accommodate all of 
the data in the selection?

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: Listbox Subform Modern UI

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Hi Kirk, I’m using Windows v17.2. 

The unusual issues with the Subform have been fixed, thanks to Tim Nevels. The 
converted database had fields defined on the included form which did not leave 
enough space for the chosen font size. Converted databases can take slightly 
more room and if there is no room to give than very strange behavior ensues. So 
for now this database will continue to use the old subform approach in these 
Admin only areas… but I’m still curious how you might choose to implement this 
with Listboxes.

Thanks,

Robert

> On Jun 27, 2019, at 4:59 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> What version are you using?

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Re: Listbox Subform Modern UI

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

What would cause a subform (not a listbox) to only show the first of several 
related records and when you click below that record, the first record 
disappears?
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Listbox Subform Modern UI

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Although, I’ve implemented this in various ways, I’d like to know the modern UI 
approach that you’ve found to be beneficial to your users and with an efficient 
programming effort. How do you handle included subforms (on a detailed form)? 
I’ve replaced an old included form with a new listbox object ( that’s populated 
with a related election of records. When I assign a required list to the only 
field presented in the listbox the selected record is not maintained which 
prevents the delete button from working. Also, the interface is a bit clunky 
since adding new records brings up the related table input form… So, how do you 
approach simple listbox objects to manage multiple related records where the 
acceptable values must be entered from a certain list.

Thanks,

Robert
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[OFF] The Death of Sebastian...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Sadly I returned home, from two back to back trips (National Association of 
Broadcasters & MotoGP), to find my beloved cat (Sebastian), the coolest cat 
that ever lived, died unexpectedly while I was at MOTOGP on Sunday... I’m so 
devastated that I did not see him for 8 days straight and that my unusually 
poor decision making was a factor in his death and that I could have done more 
to save his life! He was reportedly not well Saturday night but I didn’t think 
his condition would be fatal 24 hours later. I feel like I’ve really f@cked up 
and I’ll never forgive myself. Sorry to drop this on you. I know that some of 
you knew him, while some had no such opportunity…

Robert Broussard
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Re: Finding the proper source code...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

You know, that’s a very good point and it rings a bell. You guys are 
great—thanks!

R

> On Mar 25, 2019, at 2:49 PM, Olivier Flury via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> The problem with missing attachements may not be related to the new version 
> of the app but to:
> 
> https://doc.4d.com/4Dv16/4D-Internet-Commands/16/File-Transfer-Overview.300-3069885.en.html
>  
> 
> 
> The path to the attachement on MacOS X is limited to 63 Chars (documentation) 
> and the length of the file itself is limited to 30 Chars, including suffix 
> (own experienece).
> 
> Time to move to 64 bits...

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Finding the proper source code...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I’ve got a compiled Mac-based v13 application (yes, I know I need to update to 
v17!) that is almost all web-based (few 4D forms) and where it sends reports 
via email attachments to users. I have a need to make a few enhancements to 
this application. Just to make sure that, I’ve located the proper source code 
for this application, I recompiled and re-delivered this application which 
resulted in no email attachments being received—they got the report email but 
no attachment. Apparently the compiled version in production is not the same 
version that I believe to be the current source code. The version online shows 
a creation date of 11/28/18 (surprising since nothing happened on that date, 
certainly no deliverable) and my records indicate that the last release was 
4/10/18. Any thoughts about locating the proper source code for a compiled 
application in production? I keep careful records about this but somehow there 
is a problem. I suppose a delivered version was rolled back at some point and 
that was not well documented. 

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: Can'r run as a service on Windows 2016

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Hi Pat, I’m with you…. Let me know when you find a solution.

Thanks,

Robert

> On Mar 24, 2019, at 6:09 PM, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi peeps,
> I am still having no luck with this :)

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Re: Simulated Multiuser Testing

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Tom, thanks for your input. I’ll let you know if I pursue this and come up with 
something interesting.

R

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 15, 2019, at 6:28 PM, Tom Benedict  wrote:
> 
> We used it a lot to try to understand 4D Server “anomalies” but in the end we 
> never really came up with anything conclusive.

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Re: $D V17 as a service

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I’m having the same issue with Windows Server 2016 and Windows 10 Pro (local 
Dev OS) when using a built server. 

The steps I generally take are:
-Launch the built server as Admin.
-Say yes to any firewall questions from the OS.
-Register as a service.
-Start 4D Server service via Service control panel of the OS.
-connect with 4D client…. Be happy!

The problem is that the client does not connect. Upon closer inspection, I 
notice that the server is initially started as a server then it apparently 
quits just after it starts. The Service list shows it running and it looks like 
it’s running, then after a refresh of that list, it’s clearly not running.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Robert

> On Jan 28, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Uist Macdonald via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> When I run 4d Server V17.0 as an app under Windows Server 2016, I can connect 
> to it OK.  However if I run it as a service, I cannot connect.

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Simulated Multiuser Testing

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I’m trying to diagnose an issue with 4D client disconnecting from the server 
and it only seems to happen when there are 10 or more users connected. Have you 
ever simulated multiple users during your own testing?

Thanks,

Robert 

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Comparing two structures...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Many thanks to: Miyako, Tom, Wane, Dani & Randy!

I do need to see the methods….  The V17r3 method is the most comprehensive, so 
my plan is to adopt that approach.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses,

Robert

> On Feb 27, 2019, at 10:18 AM, Randy Jaynes  > wrote:
> 
> I would open copies of the 2 structures in v17R3 and use the export function 
> from that so you get all the form objects and everything.
> 
> Then a diff tool (I use DeltaWalker) can compare everything for you.

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Comparing two structures...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I’ve inherited a v13-based 4D database and I have a need to determine the 
differences amongst two. So, what are my structure comparison options?

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: 4D Authentication Strategy...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Hi Tim,

Right, I understand the SSO as originally explained—that was very helpful. Yet, 
for testing purposes at my location (without the authentication server) or at 
the client site when you might need to login as a specific user, how might you 
switch to/from SSO or not? I suppose there is an authentication sequence used 
by 4D where it tries to use SSO if the checkbox is checked in preferences and 
if no server is found or the authentication 4D code is not called then the 
traditional built-in 4D Password system will be in effect? See? I’m not sure 
how to switch or when SSO is automatically in play.

Thanks,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 5, 2019, at 9:34 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> You don’t want to use 4D’s password system directly.

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Re: 4D Authentication Strategy...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Right, I’ll look at that video again. I recall Tim saying that there was some 
confusion and unnecessary coding on the server side and that his successful and 
simple code was client side only. Anyway that’s my recollection. 

Thanks,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2019, at 8:33 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I would urge you to take a look at the video,
> 
> https://blog.4d.com/single-sign-on-sso/
> 
> it show the code on the client side and the server side that manages 
> authentication.
> 
>> 2019/01/05 6:36、Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>のメール:
>> 
>> Tim, I just toggled on the checkbox on the server that activates this 
>> feature but I’ve not implemented the code just yet….  So, how do you specify 
>> that you are logging in with the local 4D password instead of SSO? Modifier 
>> keys? Hidden Menu? Also, I’m not sure when the SSO login is in effect. Once 
>> the SSO code is in effect will you lock yourself out if the authentication 
>> server is down or you are developing on a different network without AD 
>> services?
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: 4D Authentication Strategy...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Tim, I just toggled on the checkbox on the server that activates this feature 
but I’ve not implemented the code just yet….  So, how do you specify that you 
are logging in with the local 4D password instead of SSO? Modifier keys? Hidden 
Menu? Also, I’m not sure when the SSO login is in effect. Once the SSO code is 
in effect will you lock yourself out if the authentication server is down or 
you are developing on a different network without AD services?

Thanks,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 14, 2018, at 11:56 AM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> I do still have a password field in my [Users] table and a special way that I 
> can log in to the database as any [Users] record using that password. But 
> that’s only for me and the IT administrator when we need to do testing of 
> permissions or privileges in the database as another user.

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Re: Understanding Unicode Characters

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Hi Arnaud, thanks for the clarification. 

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 21, 2018, at 6:54 AM, Arnaud de Montard via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> In the good old ascii, decimal 165 (hex 0xA5) was represented by a bullet, as 
> you cas see in the range 128..255:
> 
> But in this range, the resulting char could vary, depending on the OS 
> "flavour" (see bottom of list, many codes were represented on mac with no 
> equivalent on windows). 
> In unicode, one code = one char and, definitely, 165 is "¥" and 0x2022 is "•".

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Understanding Unicode Characters

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

In a galaxy far far away, we commonly used option-8 on the Mac to get a bullet 
glyph or symbol. At some point while converting databases from Mac to Windows 
this was changed to Char(165). Now, I see that Char(165), in a converted 
database, gives me the Yen sign. I’ve stumbled on the fact that Char(8226) 
gives me the bullet symbol in Windows but I don’t understand it.

So Option-8 on the Mac and Char(8226) via 4D seem to give me the same 
character, where Bbedit reports the character as:

Hex: E2 80 A2
Decimal: 226 128 162
Unicode: 2022

Why is the decimal value of 8226 not mentioned in the data above? Is there a 4d 
command that takes unicode values as a parameter, such that I could input 2022 
and get the bullet glyph?

Also when you look at the wiki referenced by the 4D docs 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unicode_characters 
) and refer to the 
bullet, you get “U+2022” and what seems like a decimal value of 916. Where is 
the 916 coming from and why is the unicode value written as “U+2022”, do you 
ever have to type “U+”?

Sorry for such a fundamental question, I guess it’s time to learn more about 
character sets.

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: 4D Write for v17

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Mitch,

4D Write Pro is no longer a plug-in but is fully integrated into 4D itself.

Regards,

Robert Broussard 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2018, at 10:38 PM, Mitchell Shiller via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In process of migrating from v16 32 bit to v17 64 bit all on Mac.
> Converted my interpreted database, but can’t find a copy of 4D Write for v17. 
> The v16 version won’t load in v 17.
> I wanted to convert all my 4D Write to 4D WritePro in 32 bit. Once stable 
> then jetison the old 4D Write and compile for 64 bit.
> 
> Any idea where I can find the plug in (It is not in the Mac complete 
> installer)? Or do I have to do this in v16 first?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Mitch
> **
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Re: Where do we inform 4D about program bugs?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Chris, I think it’s on the French forum...  okay, here’s a link for you. There 
are different reporting methods if you are a partner or not. 

http://forums.4d.com/Bugs/EN/

I hope this helps,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 15, 2018, at 12:02 AM, Chris Belanger via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Can someone kindly direct me to a link whereby I can inform 4D about program 
> bugs I have come across?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Tim, actually, I’ve nearly always used custom stylesheets…. I’ve never utilized 
the scale form feature until recently and only on one form as a test. Since 
I’ve never used this, I never knew the history or intent of the feature. I was 
just exploring how best to bring this legacy structure into v17 and wanted to 
verify best practices when it comes to stylesheet use… 

When Kiesuke says "Today it is better to use the same form for both platforms 
and use only automatic stylesheets.” I took this seriously and questioned my 
whole approach to custom stylesheets since I’ve never used or thought to use 
the automatic stylesheets. So, I’m not looking for a checkbox solution for 
design issues that deserve a custom approach. But I do want to occasionally 
re-consider my approach, at times, and to make efficient design decisions. As 
you know there is such a thing as to work within the natural flow of 4D and 
that’s the smart approach. Yes, I want to be that guy. :)

Again, thanks for your contribution. 

Robert

> On Dec 7, 2018, at 3:54 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Robert is just looking for a quick — check that checkbox — to solve his 
> problem. Form Scaling is really not that fix.

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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

“Giving it the eye ball…” this cracked me up! :)

Thanks Tim for the detailed response. Using custom style sheets extensively was 
my most utilized approach. 

Robert

> On Dec 7, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> You determine what looks good by printing it out and giving it the eye ball

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Re: Built Server—Best Practices...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Problem solved!  I'd built the server with the latest R3 version while the test 
server was running Hotfix 4. I re-built the server with HF4 and all is right 
with the world.

Robert

> On Dec 6, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Error: “The database or component “StructureName/4DC” requires the method 
> named “SVG_Clear” in the component “4D SVG” to be thread-safe.”
> 
> Have you seen that before?

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Re: Built Server—Best Practices...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I know I’ve swapped .4DC files for minor structure updates in the past on 
built-servers; yet, I just swapped out the entire “Server Database” folder in 
the built client and I’m now setting an error that I’ve never seen before. I’m 
sure I could copy over the massive server build and be done with this error but 
I was hoping to better understand why this error came up.

Error: “The database or component “StructureName/4DC” requires the method named 
“SVG_Clear” in the component “4D SVG” to be thread-safe.”

Have you seen that before?

Thanks,

Robert

===
Robert Broussard
Houston, TX
===

> On Oct 16, 2018, at 2:24 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> but will say I've
> been doing those sorts of updates to my built server app for - years. I've
> never has an issue that tracked back to it. Yet.


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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

The “Automatic” setting appears to be using Segoe UI 12 as a default. I also 
see “Automatic (Main)” which has a default of 16 point. The sweet spot for this 
Windows interface might be 13 point font; yet, it’s my understanding that any 
font-size over-rides on a particular object drops the dynamic behavior, and key 
benefit, of the automatic style sheet. So, please tell me how you use the 
automatic stylesheet. I didn’t notice originally that there was a “main" and an 
“additional” automatic stylesheets (so 3 in total). In the past I used custom 
stylesheets and never used the automatic. Now, I’d like to understand it better 
so that I can apply this more effectively.

From the manual: "Automatic style sheets manage the font as well as its size 
and color. If you modify one of the properties managed by an automatic style 
sheet in the Form editor, this style sheet no longer works dynamically. 
However, you can apply custom style properties (Bold, Italic or Underline) 
without altering its functioning.”

Thanks,

Robert

===
Robert Broussard
Houston, TX
===

> On Nov 18, 2018, at 11:46 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Today it is better to use... only automatic stylesheets.

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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I showed a scaled up version of a few forms, during a migration to v17 and 
later I decided to move everything to automatic stylesheets as recommended by 
Keisuke that this is best practices now. So, Jefferey, are you using automatic 
stylesheets?  

What determines the font size of automatic style sheets?  In Windows 10, what 
should that size be…?

I have a client that kinda liked the scaled up larger forms…. I moved away from 
that because of the “best practices” suggestions here and because the button 
graphics were also scaled and did not look as sharp. 

This is a screenshot of the current size, it does not look too small to me.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f24b4xukcm28il9/Screenshot%202018-12-06%2018.32.29.png?dl=0
 


I appreciate your input.

Thanks,

Robert

> On Nov 19, 2018, at 8:46 AM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> The Automatic style sheet on Mac still pick the wrong font on 10.11 and 
> later.  It uses Helvetica Neue instead of San Francisco.  

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Re: Redrawing List Subform...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Problem solved. The record was being added but was not part of the current 
selection. A query was added that performs the same duty as the automatic 
Relate Many. So the problem was not one of object redraw it was data related. 

FWIW, 

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 20, 2018, at 12:37 PM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> I have a list subform showing related records and when a record is added via 
> programming the list does not update.

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Re: Audit File Updates via Triggers...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Wow, you guys are the best—GREAT idea! I think we all need to use objects more 
often and this is a great example—thanks Kirk.

> On Nov 20, 2018, at 2:48 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> Robert,
> My thoughts on the created by/modified by stuff:
> 1) I moved all this to a single object field. I call it '_meta' and it's on
> every table I want to manage.
> 2) At a minimum the field has:
> {created"; {"name: "", "date": ""},
> "modified"; {"name": "", "date": ""}}

Thanks,

Robert

===
Robert Broussard
Houston, TX
===

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Re: Selection-based Listbox Deletions...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Hi Keisuke, thanks for your response….  Just trying to get clarification here.

> On Nov 20, 2018, at 2:32 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> ...selection-based list box did not exist back then,
> and it was never further updated to work for list boxes.
> using it outside the context of a list form or a list subform with focus is 
> undefined.

In the 4D Design Reference documentation, in the List Boxes section, it clearly 
states that:
"A button or a menu item associated with the Delete Subrecord standard action 
is automatically enabled when there is at least one row selected in a 
"selection" type list box. When multiple rows are selected, the action is 
applied to all the records. When a user clicks on the button or selects the 
menu item, a confirmation dialog box appears so that the user can confirm or 
cancel the deletion…"

Using standard actions
> http://doc.4d.com/4Dv17R2/4D/17-R2.1720/Using-standard-actions.300-3839577.en.html
>  
> 

Are you saying the documentation is incorrect?

> and most important, it was never defined to work for related records;
> only the current selection of a list form (main or sub form),
> which in the context of a table displayed in a subform of a related 1 table's 
> input form,
> happens also to be related records.

My understanding is that the current selection of a list form (sub form) are 
the related records…. And that if the action was to only work on the current 
selection then it would be “Delete Record” not "Delete SubRecord” both of which 
seem to be valid if I’m understanding the documentation correctly.

Thanks,

Robert

===
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Houston, TX
===

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Re: Audit File Updates via Triggers...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Hi Chuck, I think in this case, this makes sense. I never thought about 
tracking all record updates or going further… all updates on chosen fields. I 
recall in the past that other developers that cared about such things had a 3-4 
fields added to each record and could easily see who created and who updated 
and when….  When I looked at some of the previous (more recent) NUG messages I 
see the where some people needed the granularity of field level or they need to 
know about every update (not just creation/modified). Thanks for chiming in. 4D 
is an amazing set of tools but sometimes you want to consider design ideas that 
have been successful in other projects.

Thanks,

Robert

===
Robert Broussard
Houston, TX
===

> On Nov 20, 2018, at 2:12 PM, Charles Miller via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> I think the strategy depends upon need. If all you need to to know
> who created, data and time created and last modified by, last modified date
> and time, then I would add fields to table in question.

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Audit File Updates via Triggers...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

At a minimum, I just have the simple need of recording “CreatedBy” and  
“ModifiedBy” values (username or ID) for one particular table. I do have extra 
fields already in that table that could be repurposed and I would probably add 
“DateModified” to that. However, that’s three fields used just for auditing. 
When I look back at previous posts I see that some of you are tracking (saving 
audit data for) for tables and even individual fields. So, as I have a chance 
to redesign this DB, I wanted to re-think how this is implemented. 


So, Chip, when you have the need to store the username (or ID) of the user that 
created and/or last modified a key record, do you ever have this data in the 
field of the original record? I’m sure I have seen this more commonly where the 
data is in the original record. I guess to keep things normalized, you would 
use a related table (or a standalone table) where each transaction that you 
want to remember is stored. However, with the separate table method I suppose 
you would have to search this audit table every time your detail form is loaded 
(assuming you want to show who created or modified a record) and that each time 
the record is updated the audit table would be getting a new record.

Thoughts about your data audit strategy are appreciated.

Thanks,

Robert

===
Robert Broussard
Houston, TX
===

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 9:26 AM, Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org> wrote, 
> Re: Triggers and error handling:
> 
> so my triggers tend to look like this:
> case of
> (Database event = : (Database event=On Saving New Record Event)
>  trk_Last_Modified (->[Account_Postings]Created_Who)
>  trk_Last_Modified (->[Account_Postings]Modified_Who)

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Re: Redrawing List Subform...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Also, I forgot to mention:
> On May 14, 2016, at 1:59 PM, David Belote  wrote, 
> Re: redrawing subform:
> Keisuke, Thank you for that nugget.  I have been confused for a long time 
> about REDRAW.  In the past, when I’m coding and something doesn’t display or 
> doesn’t display like I think it should, I start putting REDRAW commands into 
> my code.  In almost all case, eventually, I determine it was something else 
> and have removed them.  Essentially, what you are saying is that except for 
> ListBoxes this command is not needed (which should be the 4D behavior).  If 
> so, I sure wish the documentation would state that.

Apparently, there is plenty of confusion about redrawing subforms.

Thanks,

Robert

> On Nov 20, 2018, at 12:37 PM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Searching the NUG I found:

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Redrawing List Subform...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I have a list subform showing related records and when a record is added via 
programming the list does not update. So, I tried to use Redraw using the: 
object name; variable name, table name as a parameter and the redraw did not 
occur. Also, Redraw window had no affect either. Any ideas on how to get this 
simple subform to refresh?

Searching the NUG I found:

> On May 13, 2016, at 2:40 PM, Gary Boudreaux  wrote Re: 
> redrawing subform:
> REDRAW([ManyTable]) //[this worked for Gary]


> On Sep 5, 2018, at 2:43 PM, Stephen J. Orth via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote, Re: v13 - screen redraw:
> Chip, Another option is to use CALL PROCESS (-1) and see if that works...
> Steve

Also, 4D v17 does not seem to have the Call Process command….  Was this removed?

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: WARNING: Beware when rebuilding a structure using XML definition!

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Pat, I know this is an ancient thread but I wanted to know, what was the 
original problem that was solved by the xml-based structure rebuild?

I rebuilt one of my structures today via xml and it seemed to go smoothly. I 
knew I’d have to copy methods and forms lists were only selectable one at a 
time and menus seem to require rebuilding manually. I also noticed that all 
subtables were established as related tables only, no compatibility mode which 
is fine with me. 

The rebuild in my case did not resolve an ongoing problem but it was easier 
than expected and I was even able to open an old data file from v11, data 
intact. 

Thanks,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 16, 2015, at 11:03 AM, Pat Bensky  wrote:
> 
> Maybe this rant will save somebody a great deal of pain in the future ...
> 
> I've spent DAYS trying to fix a hugely problematical upgrade from v13 to
> v14. Eventually I realised that the only solution would be to recreate the
> whole project by exporting the structure definition to XML, then creating a
> new structure from that definition (File->New->Database from structure
> definition).

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Selection-based Listbox Deletions...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I have a rather simple form with a selection-based Listbox from a related table 
where the automatic action button “Delete Subrecord” simply does not work. The 
unexpected results include: a) one of the parent records are deleted and it may 
not be the parent record you are working with; b) no records deleted at all; or 
c) the parent record is deleted instead of the selected child record.

The documented behavior that I was expecting is:
Using standard actions
> http://doc.4d.com/4Dv17R2/4D/17-R2.1720/Using-standard-actions.300-3839577.en.html
>  
> 

History: this related table started life as a subtable and has been converted 
to regular table. This deletion behavior occurs with the special relation in 
place or not. I built a new structure via XML and the undocumented behavior 
still occurs.

So, when you are working with selection-based list boxes on a detail form from 
a related table how do you handle deletions?

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: V17 MSC Reports Orphaned Methods...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Hi Tim, I’ve only noticed this behavior on this particular structure. I’ve 
accepted it somewhat after I realized that most of the recent anomalies go away 
after restarting 4D. 

Thanks,

Robert 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 17, 2018, at 7:11 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> It’s just a 4D bug in how it handles deleting methods connected to objects.  
> It does a less than perfect job of handling this. Sometimes it does it right, 
> sometimes it screws up. Been this way for years in untold number of 4D 
> versions.

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Re: I've updated sideORDA

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Thanks Kirk, I was one of those that was looking for that version. I was not 
sure that my DM via your lists_kirk email were received.

Robert

> On Nov 17, 2018, at 12:57 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> A few folks have asked me to update sideORDA
>  > to include the examples I showed
> in my 4D Method presentation

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Re: What's the thinking on setting/clearing semaphores rapidly?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

The overall performance of the server is sluggish or the log writing routine? 
Why does the loop have to be so tight? How about writing the log every minute 
or every 5 minutes I suppose that’s not an option for some reason. 

Robert Broussard 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 17, 2018, at 10:38 AM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> The overall performance is pretty sluggish and
> I'm looking at things that may contribute to that.

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Re: What's the thinking on setting/clearing semaphores rapidly?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Kirk, what’s the problem with the current setup?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 17, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> This is an obvious case for moving to a worker process once we get off v15
> but for the moment this method is causing me problems.

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Re: V17 MSC Reports Orphaned Methods...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Actually I was using build 229490 but now I’m using the most recent (229707) 
with the same behavior as previously reported.

Thanks,

Robert

> On Nov 17, 2018, at 1:10 AM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> While using v17R3 (Build 17.228509)

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Re: V17 MSC Reports Orphaned Methods...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Okay, after a lot of testing…. I noticed that after deleting a form object and 
seeing MSC report the warning, on a couple of occasions the “anomaly” was 
cleared solely by re-launching 4D. I still would like to ensure that I have a 
clean, corruption-free structure and for MSC to report a clean bill of health. 
So, if you have any ideas on what to check, I’m all ears. BTW: I could see that 
the 4D Forum shows that this was an issue with an old V13 beta but was quickly 
fixed after being reported by Tony R.

Robert

> On Nov 17, 2018, at 1:10 AM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> MSC shows that there is an anomaly...The problem is that this issue continues 
> after the structure repair.

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V17 MSC Reports Orphaned Methods...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

While using v17R3 (Build 17.228509) and v17.0 HF3, I noticed that my converted 
structure (coming from v11) that I’ve been regularly modifying during this v17 
upgrade started to report anomalies via MSC Verify. To reproduce a problem I 
just delete a from object that was recently duplicated, just for testing and 
then MSC shows that there is an anomaly. On several occasions, orphaned methods 
(sometimes up to 93 orphaned methods) were viewable via Explorer and were 
deleted (and the Trash emptied) and sometimes MSC just completed the repair 
(seemingly without issue). However, deleting a single object (testing with two 
different forms) will trigger the warning: "The method resource CC4D of id 17 
is not used anywhere”. The problem is that this issue continues after the 
structure repair.

So, any thoughts on how to get a clean bill of health from MSC…? I’ve deleted 
all orphaned methods, repaired & compacted the structure. I’m running out of 
things to try.

BTW: a few days ago, I noticed that I could not select buttons on a form I was 
working with and I could not duplicate that form either. I rebuilt that form 
copying some of the objects and all seemed well. MSC did not report any issues 
at the time. Here is one screenshot of the larger warning list…. 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6wmk6nqb3qp7o8c/Screenshot%202018-11-16%2019.44.33.png?dl=0

Thanks,

Robert


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Re: Screenshot via Windows...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Okay, I found a way that works for me.  I triggered the print screen command 
via Parallels. Then, I had the image on the clipboard and was able to paste 
into Paint 3D. Then crop and save to a file. I’m sure there is a better way but 
this works for me for now.

Thanks,

Robert

> On Nov 15, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> ...an efficient way to grab a specific portion of a Windows screen where the 
> pixel dimensions are preserved...

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Screenshot via Windows...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I’ve got a form from another system that I would like to use as a guide in this 
new v17 database. I used the Mac to get a screenshot of a windows form and all 
seemed well until I dragged that image file onto a new 4D form and noted that 
it was far larger than expected. I suppose that the Mac retina thing on this 
machine is the culprit since the actual pixels captured are larger than real 
life. So, I suppose there is a quick and easy way to get a screen shot via 
Windows 10 using native Win software. I don’t have the printScreen button on my 
Mac keyboard and triggering PrintScrn or ALT-PrintScrn via Parallels VM does 
not seem to produce a file. Thoughts on an efficient way to grab a specific 
portion of a Windows screen where the pixel dimensions are preserved?

Thanks,

Robert

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Re: 4D Authentication Strategy...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Oops! Sorry about that—I had no idea!!!

Many Thanks Helge. I see it’s almost 7 in the evening your time—god kveld.

Robert

> On Nov 15, 2018, at 2:36 AM, 4dialog via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> By the way, Hilsen = Greeting in norwegian :)

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Re: 4D Authentication Strategy...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Hi Hilsen, thanks for your input.

So, if you are storing users in user tables, couldn’t that be used to restore a 
new structure? When you say you are storing lists outside of the DB you lose 
me.  With your strategy, is the structure or the data file the authority? Are 
you using your own custom dialog for all authentication?

Thanks,

Robert

> On Nov 9, 2018, at 2:00 AM, 4dialog via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> I always use both, 4d user and user tables to add info about the user. 4D
> user has a uniq id, so its easy to add records about any user. When updating
> versions on the server, i just sends the 4D users to a list that can be
> stored outside or in the dbase and replace them after startup of server.

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Re: activating default user

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

HI Kirk, thanks for taking the time to weigh-in on this… I’m in need of some 
clarification, see below:

> I include a field in the [Users] table for the database id and database
> name. The significance of that value depends on the rules you set up for
> yourself.

I assume that these are arbitrary values….  How might you use this ID 
(Integer?) and the Database Name? I’m assuming that the scope is limited to 
this single database.
 
> 1) You could say the 4D structure is the authority in which case if the
> structure doesn't, or no longer, has that user's db id in it that [user] is
> inactive and I'd clear the db id field.

Are you looking for a [User]DB_ID in the structure? Clearing an ID from the 
structure? Okay, I think I understand now… Since the structure is the 
“authority” in this case I’m thinking you are using the 4D dialog and allow the 
user to login… you GET USER LIST then lookup the user_ID via user_name that was 
retrieved from Current User and then see if the user is in the [user] table? 
However, the more I think about it, I bet your perspective is coming from a 
custom dialog… where the [user] table could be used first and that the 4D users 
could still be the authority…

> 2) Or you can take the other approach and say that every 'active' [user]
> will have a 4D login and create any that are missing.

Okay, that makes sense…

> With #1 you can limit who can create users to who can get to EDIT USERS.

WHAT?!? :)  Please clarify what you mean here.

> It's easy to… update the 4D user id…

What do you mean by update the 4D user ID here...

> The tricky part about creating 4D users is keeping out of the password
> business. Part of my goal was to not have to manage passwords. I want users
> to be responsible for that. But you still need some control. Plus when you
> create a user you have to assign a password. My solution is to have a temp
> password field in [users]. If a user has their password reset by admin, for
> whatever reason, a temp password is assigned to the 4D user and saved in
> the [user] record. My rule is 'the next time you log in with the temp
> password you have to change it.’

Great Idea!  With this current DB the Admin is managing users and passwords via 
“Edit Access”. Only about 10 users but I suppose the Admin knows everyone’s PW. 

> This is where USERS TO BLOB and BLOB TO USERS comes in. These
> commands preserve the 4D user passwords. To allow me to update the
> structure I save the users with USERS TO BLOB every time the server shuts
> down. And then every time is starts up I look for the user blob and call
> BLOB TO USERS.

So in this case where you USERS TO BLOB and BLOB TO USERS, is the 4D structure 
the authority? How was it originally populated?  I can see it starting from 
[users] that updated 4D or where the Admin created a bunch of users that got 
synced to [users] or where no users table was used at all since it could be 
maintained in 4D if you needed no additional user info stored and if you were 
not using your password reset feature.

I very much appreciate your detailed post—for some reason I’m having trouble 
getting full clarity. 

Thanks,

Robert


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Can Designer Groups Be Deleted?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Is there a way to delete Designer groups in 4D?

Thanks,

Robert


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Re: 4D Authentication Strategy...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Thanks Jim, for the database I’m working on I might be able to get by with a 
couple of checkboxes that represent groups and not really have a groups table. 
I’m planning to have all of the database users in a users table and to 
authenticate against that and to also verify that there is a matching 4D user 
in the structure and to automatically create one if necessary. BTW: the main 
benefits of having the users in the table is that I need to record a user ID to 
certain records that have been created and I need user initials and when new 
structure is delivered the credentials are all in place. Oh, and if I decide to 
implement SSO I already have a Windows_ID field ready to go. So, I’m trying to 
keep it simple. I’ve never tried to do to this way, I call it a hybrid approach 
since it uses table and structure based resources. Any ideas on ways to keep it 
simple are appreciated.

Robert

> On Nov 14, 2018, at 3:39 PM, Jim Labos - infobase via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> We roll our own mostly. Using a list of available "action". Each user then
> either has or has not permission for the "action". 

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Re: activating default user

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Kirk, what was your method of keeping use rand 4d recs in sync?

Thanks,

R

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 10:52 AM, Kirk Brooks  wrote:
> 
> You have to explicitly
> offer some way to log in as a different 4D user or, as I eventually did,
> tie my user records to a 4D user.

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Re: 4D Authentication Strategy...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Tim, I just toggled on the checkbox on the server that activates this feature 
but I’ve not implemented the code just yet….  So, how do you specify that you 
are logging in with the local 4D password instead of SSO? Modifier keys? Hidden 
Menu? Also, I’m not sure when the SSO login is in effect. Once the SSO code is 
in effect will you lock yourself out if the authentication server is down or 
you are developing on a different network without AD services?

Thanks,

Robert

> On Nov 9, 2018, at 9:08 AM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I do still have a password field in my [Users] table and a special way that I 
> can log in to the database as any [Users] record using that password. But 
> that’s only for me and the IT administrator when we need to do testing of 
> permissions or privileges in the database as another user. 

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Re: 4D Authentication Strategy...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Supercool Tim!

BTW: did you have a way of testing this in your office?  Right now I’m thinking 
that when I’m connected to the client VPN I’d have access to that Windows 
server for authentication.

Thanks,

Robert

> On Nov 9, 2018, at 9:08 AM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> This is going to be my standard, default way of letting users connect to 4D 
> Server on pure Windows environments. Totally eliminates the need to save 
> passwords in the 4D data file. No need to implement a change password” 
> feature in your database. No need for a “login” dialog box for the average 
> user. 

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Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

For many projects, I’m working with a larger team where the precise size of 
fonts and other stylesheet details are already decided. In this case, I’m 
designing new forms and optimizing some old ones via Windows 10 (for a legacy 
application that looks like it ran on a Mac Plus) and I wanted to make a wise 
choice about an approach with respect to: stylesheets; optimal fonts and sizes 
for each platform and what to do about form scaling, if anything. I’ve never 
thought much about the form scaling feature of 4D but it seems like scaling is 
always in effect with a default of  "Windows to Mac (75%)”.

Form Scaling... Is this still a thing? :) 

While converting a v11-based structure to v17 that started life on a Mac many 
years before, I noticed that most forms seemed rather small on Windows 
(currently the only destination platform but I don’t want to exclude Mac 
clients). At first, the 133% increase in form size seemed seemed to fit the 
bill (if not slightly large). One issue I noticed is that the glass button 
graphics are obviously scaled beyond the bitmap (meaning that these buttons 
only look sharp at 48X48 and all standard 4D buttons are this size). I’ve never 
noticed scaling artifacts on other projects.

V17 Default Stylesheet
Windows 7 & 8 (Segoe UI, 12 point)
Windows Classic (MS Sans Serif, 12 point)
OS X (Lucida Grande, 13 point)

Regarding the default stylesheet, what is “Windows Classic” and what stylesheet 
would Windows 10 use?

Which Windows fonts and sizes do you find optimal for your 4D applications? Do 
you use explicit stylesheets? Do you use automatic stylesheets too?  Scaling 
other than 133%? I saw recently where 125% was considered optimal. I appreciate 
your thoughts on modern, high-quality form design.

Thanks,

Robert





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Collection of Telemetry Data

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I know that Jody has some expertise on this where he rolled his own remote data 
mirror. In my case, I just want my apps to phone home via the magic of the 
internet.  I’d like to collect usage data to see what areas and features are 
used. I imagine this data would be collected in local tables and synced to 
another 4D database every night. In addition, I suppose licenses for vertical 
market apps could be verified or could be extended or validated after payments 
for continued service is satisfied. So, I have a lot of ideas on what could be 
measured. I’m not sure how best to get that data over the internet to another 
database. I assume this type of data could be sent via http without special  
port forwarding on corporate routers. Thoughts? How does your app phone home? 
And do you like what it has to say? :)

Thanks,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone
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4D Authentication Strategy...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I’ve inherited many 4D databases over the years and some have a custom password 
system and some use the built in 4D system or a hybrid approach. I know that 4D 
also allows authentication via Active Directory (single sign on) but I’ve not 
implemented that. So, I’m looking to enhance a few legacy systems and wanted to 
consider my authentication strategy... I’ll probably want to keep the users and 
groups in the data file so that the data would always be valid after structure 
changes and to store more data about each user. Also, what if users could 
register on the system and use the system to reset passwords and such just like 
a public web site, this would lighten the load for the admin... I know this was 
all the rage 20 years ago. So, have you rolled your own password system in 4D? 
What are the key benefits in your situation?

Thanks,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Cannot Dismiss Form When Compiled... (Robert ListMail)

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Tim, you nailed it. I knew the approach was rudimentary ("super legacy”) but it 
just seemed to work (and I was okay with that for now) and I couldn’t find 
anything in the docs that suggested that Modify Selection should be called with 
a preceding explicit Open Form Window and in it’s own process. 4D TS was 
thinking (first thought) that one of the objects on the form might be damaged… 
after deleting all form objects except the button the behavior continued. 
Putting that legacy code in a new process seems to have solved the problem. For 
the moment, the request has been to get this app running on v17 with minimal 
changes. It’s one of those things that the more you look at it the more work 
needs to be done. 

Thanks,

Robert

> On Nov 7, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Is there an “Open window” company anywhere to be found, or is this all 
> running in the default 4D splash screen window? That could be the issue. Need 
> to stop using that window and process and start creating new processes and 
> doing explicit “Open window” commands in the new processes. That’s the new 4D 
> way. The single-window-never-open-a-window way is super legacy and is being 
> left behind rapidly by 4D engineering. My opinion.

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Picture Buttons--Benefits of Picture Library...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I’ve been working with button images which the picture library... While doing 
this I noticed one nice feature of the picture library. When dragging button 
graphics from the picture library to a form (assuming that the picture 
properties are defined as a split object), the destination object is assumed to 
be a picture button and is sized properly (48x48). When I do this with the 
resource folder as a source, I get just the graphic (not a button) and I have 
to muck with the sizing properties since this apparently cannot be set via the 
resource tab of the toolbox. Any suggestions about this subject?  What’s the 
consensus about where to store these resources? I think 4D is suggesting 
resources (the external resource folder) is the future but clearly there are 
some picture folder benefits. What do you use?

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: Cannot Dismiss Form When Compiled...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Any thoughts?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 7, 2018, at 12:43 AM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> cannot be dismissed when the application is compiled.

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Cannot Dismiss Form When Compiled...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

While upgrading a v11 structure to v17R3 (Windows), I’ve noticed that the form 
(“PCDisplay”) loaded via Modify Selection cannot be dismissed when the 
application is compiled. Can you spot the problem?

//
DIALOG([DocketFile];"PullCaseSearch")
If (OK=1)
QUERY([DocketFile];[DocketFile]DocketSite=vSite;*)
QUERY([DocketFile];[DocketFile]DocketDate=vDate)
If (Records in selection([DocketFile])>0)
RELATE ONE SELECTION([DocketFile];[IntakeFile])
table([IntakeFile]))
NEXT RECORD([DocketFile])
ORDER BY([IntakeFile];[IntakeFile]CaseNo;>)
FORM SET OUTPUT([IntakeFile];"PCDisplay")
FORM SET INPUT([IntakeFile];"TestIntake")
MODIFY SELECTION([IntakeFile];*)
Else 
ALERT("No cases found for that docket.")
End if 
End if 
UNLOAD RECORD([IntakeFile])
//

Thanks,

Robert
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Changing Picture/3D Button Sets Dynamically...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

How might you implement changing or swapping picture (or 3D Button) sets on the 
fly?  I see the picture source can take a variable. Think about the flexibility 
we have with a display or entry filter where the filter definition is centrally 
defined with almost no effort. Have you had the buttons assigned centrally 
before…?  The more I think of this, I can see this could be part fo a 
dynamically generated form and not just the buttons.

Thanks,

Robert

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Re: Moving picture resources from one database to another

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Tim, nice piece if code that I was hoping to use to convert my PICT library 
images to PNG….  This works perfectly but it must be done BEFORE you convert 
the structure to v17. I hope this helps someone.

Regards,

Robert

> On Feb 10, 2018, at 4:28 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> This method converts all pictures in the library to PNG format and then 
> writes them back to the library. It’s an example to see the logic that you 
> would use.
> 
> C_TEXT($pictureName_t)
> C_PICTURE($picture_c)
> C_LONGINT($i;$pictureID_l)
> ARRAY LONGINT($pictureID_al;0)
> ARRAY TEXT($pictureName_at;0)
> 
> PICTURE LIBRARY LIST($pictureID_al;$pictureName_at)
> 
> For ($i;1;Size of array($pictureID_al))
>   $pictureID_l:=$pictureID_al{$i}
>   $pictureName_t:=$pictureName_at{$i}
>   GET PICTURE FROM LIBRARY($pictureID_l;$picture_c)
> 
> // convert the picture
>   CONVERT PICTURE($picture_c;".png")
> 
> // make all white pixels transparent
>   TRANSFORM PICTURE($picture_c;Transparency;0x00FF)
> 
> // write back to library
>   SET PICTURE TO LIBRARY($picture_c;$pictureID_l;$pictureName_t)
> End for 

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Re: Intelligent Use of Entry/Display Filters...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

At the moment, I’m thinking of rolling my own using the filters centrally 
defined as follows. The functionality

The method is easy to call via: Set_ZipCode_Display (Self)


//Method Set_ZipCode_Display
C_POINTER($1;$ZipCode)
$ZipCode:=$1

Case of 
: (Length($ZipCode->)=5)
OBJECT SET FORMAT($ZipCode->;"|Zip_Display_Standard")
: (Length($ZipCode->)=9)
OBJECT SET FORMAT($ZipCode->;"|Zip_Display_Extended")
Else 
OBJECT SET FORMAT($ZipCode->;"")
End case
========

> On Nov 3, 2018, at 5:54 PM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> ...zip code data entry and display.

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Intelligent Use of Entry/Display Filters...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I’m refactoring and old database in v17 and wanted to re-think how the entry 
and display filters are implemented. At the moment, I’m focused on zip code 
data entry and display. The current system is setup to handle extended zip 
codes but there is often an extra hyphen when 5 standard length codes are used. 
Do you allow for standard and extended length zip codes? How do you have your 
entry and display filters defined? The documentation talks about combining 
entry and splay into one but the property inspector has a place for both values 
separately. 

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: subtables issue

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Keisuke, can you elaborate on the potential ORDA approach in this situation…? 
I’m dealing with subtables as well in v17 and was about to eliminate the 
obsolete subtable/subrecord commands when I noticed that you mentioned leaving 
it alone….  Are you suggesting that I leave the old “_o_” commands in place on 
a converted V17 database?  For those of us wrapping our heads around ORDA, tell 
(please) how we can use the new 4D technology to resolve legacy subtable issues.

Thanks,

Robert

> On Jul 15, 2018, at 11:57 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> you are already on v17,
> so the debate should be whether to stick with subtables or reengineer the 
> whole thing using ORDA.

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Built Client/Server Anomalies (Probably My Fault) v17R3 Beta

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

So, when I last reported effortless success of my V11 to V17 migration I’d used 
a v14 version that I’d experimented with years earlier and everything seemed to 
be working well….  I went back to the original v11 version just to make sure 
that any and all updates to the source were accommodated and had to re-create 
some of the previous work I’d done previously such as choosing or creating 
primary key fields and such. Although, this structure does have numerous PICT 
resources scattered throughout, v17 allows me to compile and to make a built 
Client/Server. While testing I noticed that: some output listing buttons don’t 
work and that the app freezes if I click around enough and has to be forced to 
quit. Also, sometimes the input form does not render properly with the left 
edge truncated. When running uncompiled single user everything works well but 
merged the reliability goes out the window. Could all of this be explained by 
the existing PICT images in this structure? BTW: I’m enjoying the r3 version 
since I can use version control!

Thanks for your input!

Robert
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Re: Structure Location--Best Practices...?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Does using another folder within the 4D folder resolve any problem? My first 
thought was to have the database folder as a root folder and not in another 
folder and TS is telling me the same. I suppose this makes more sense if 
the server is serving > 1 DB. 

Thanks,

R

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 1, 2018, at 5:25 PM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> C:\4D\ base folder would be fine...

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Re: Structure Location--Best Practices...?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Thanks guys, that covers Windows... what about macOS?

R

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 1, 2018, at 5:25 PM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I'd stay away from Program Files and the root of C (but a C:\4D\ base folder 
> would be fine if you only have one drive).

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Structure Location--Best Practices...?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

When deploying a 4D (v17) structure (actually a built Server in this case) 
where is the optimal place to store these files? Over the years I’ve seen the 
structure stored in numerous places. However, as I’m configuring a new Windows 
2016 server to be used exclusively to server 4D Server, I wanted to consider 
the optimal location. When I asked 4D TS about this (the answer seemed like 
shades of grey) I was told that a root directory off the C drive might be 
problematic and that I should consider “Program Files” but that there is tech 
note where it says that Program Files is not a good location…. And that the 
Desktop or Documents folder could be used but then no other users could see the 
structure or launch it. 4D TS will be researching this and will get back to 
me—meanwhile I wanted to see what the community had to say on this subject. 
BTW: eventually (after testing is complete) this database will be running as a 
service.

So, where do you like to store your 4D Server-based database for Mac & Windows?

Thanks,

Robert

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Re: Using 4D with Git...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

If you start with your own local git data and then publish the project to 
GitHub and then move it to bitbucket do you get to see the granularity of the 
commits and have all of the other options offered via Git? Or, do you lose the 
history with each transition?

Thanks,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 31, 2018, at 3:23 PM, John DeSoi via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Yes, it can do those things plus just manage local repositories if you don't 
> publish anywhere.

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Re: Using 4D with Git...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

John, just clarify… Fork is simply a GUI client to access GitHub or BitBucket 
repositories?

Thanks,

Robert 

> On Oct 31, 2018, at 8:42 AM, John DeSoi via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I like Fork. Nice interface, open source, free. I tried to find a donation 
> page, but did not see one.
> 
> https://git-fork.com 
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Re: Using 4D with Git...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Hi Mike, I’ll look into this. I like that all of the big git hosting companies 
like GitHub can integrate with third party trouble ticket trackers. For example 
I think GitHub works with ZenDesk while BitBucket uses Jira. 

Thanks,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 30, 2018, at 9:48 AM, Mike Kerner via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> We've been using GitKraken for a couple of years because it seems the
> easiest to use to teach n00bs to use.  It also has an integrated issue
> tracker called glo that is very nice.

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Re: Using 4D with Git...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Paul, if you are using BitBucket aren’t they doing the hosting...?

Also, BitBucket is free for up to 5 users with unlimited private repositories.  

R

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 30, 2018, at 12:51 AM, Paul Dennis via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> If you host your own stuff as I do, use bitbucket its 10$ for 10 users.

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Using 4D with Git...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Historically I’ve not been much of a Git user… now that I’m using Git on other 
projects and that 4D v17 R3 brings a native way to represent a complete 4D 
structure as text that can be managed by a Git repository, I’m excited to use 
Git to mange version control of my projects. However at the moment, we have no 
ability to clone a Git repository (that was populated by the new export 
structure command) or to convert this version of the source code back into a 
useable 4D structure. So, I expect that 4D will be providing a way to work with 
the structure as text or that we have a way to generate a new .4db file from 
the Git managed source. 

So, how do you use Git (or GitHub) with 4D? Do you prefer the GUI or the CLI? 
If you are using GitHub are you using public repositories? Historically, any 4D 
source code was a prized possession, but with other IDE’s it seems much harder 
to preserve source code privacy and many people have the full source on Git 
Hub. I suppose make sure you have no license or passwords or other private data 
in the source code. Has 4D announced a Git roadmap…? I suppose they could have 
4D directly connect to Git (or GitHub).

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: Creating button icons with Photoshop

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Doug, did you find that? I’m working on a few button strategies myself. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Doug Hall  wrote:
> 
> Earlier today I ran across directions in the 4D documentation on how to use
> Photoshop to create the four different layers of of a rollover button
> picture for 4D. Now, for the life of me, I can't find it. Anyone know right
> where this is, and could post the link?
> 
> Thanks!
> **
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Re: Icon & Picture Button Sources...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Thanks Rudy and Stephen, you’ve given me some things to consider. It’s been a 
long time since I’ve customized buttons. Back in 1994 I used photoshop to 
create some custom buttons but it seems it’s been a while. I’ve inherited many 
different apps over the years and never paid close attention to these 
resources. Now, with v17 we are forced to update these objects. Of course they 
really needed to be refreshed anyway—buttons cannot live forever. :)

Thanks,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 24, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Two Way Communications via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Actually, I prefer to roll my own.

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Re: Icon & Picture Button Sources...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Stephen, are you photoshopping the other states manually creating the other 
button versions...?

Thanks,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 23, 2018, at 7:15 PM, Stephen J. Orth  
> wrote:
> 
> If you want to create a multi-state button, which is what you are describing, 
> you simply create a PNG image with 4 states.  This is how we handle this in 
> our system...

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Re: Icon & Picture Button Sources...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Hi Tim thanks for the reminder. I recall liking your interface design. So, are 
you using the various button states where 4D has the ability to swap the images 
during different states such as “rollover”? If so, did you have to create two 
or three different versions of each icon for matrix of images…?

Thanks,

Rob

> On Oct 23, 2018, at 2:04 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> https://glyphlab.com 
> 
> You have to pay money, but for me it was worth it as I paid once and got a 
> library of high quality images I’ve been using for years in all my projects.  
> For me, well worth the one time price.
> 
> Tim

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[OFF] Credit card payments...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

I have a client with an overdue invoice….  They want to pay via CC but I 
normally don’t take credit cards. Do you take credit card payments…? My first 
thought its to use PayPal.

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: Leaving the .4DB behind??

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

But what if the structure was that collection of files and that 4D runs as it 
always does but the github version management is always in play without an 
export? What if the .4db is simply a package that didn’t have to be there? Just 
a thought. I think at a minimum, we will be one mouse-click from exporting the 
code, as you can see from the new v17r3 release and I’m assuming we’ll be able 
to import that same code to build a .4b from scratch. My idea saves the 
conversion steps, all other functionality would be identical. 

FWIW,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 23, 2018, at 3:36 AM, Epperlein, Lutz (agendo) via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> No, I don't think so. It would be a complete different system. 4D relies on 
> the structure file, it is a database of code and other information, UI and so 
> on.

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Leaving the .4DB behind??

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Will 4D be able to work directly from remote GitHub repositories and where the  
.4db is no more??

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Icon & Picture Button Sources...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

As I recall, Tim Nevels mentioned a favorite picture button resource which has 
escaped me... Tim, can you refresh my memory...?

Thanks,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 22, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> So, were do you find modern pictures to use for your picture buttons?

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Icon & Picture Button Sources...

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

As I move some v11 projects to v17, the old picture buttons fail to work as 
expected since they were using a PICT image and since those file formats are no 
longer supported by 4D. So, were do you find modern pictures to use for your 
picture buttons?  Optimally it would be great if these are already setup with 
the 4 possible states recognized by 4D.

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: Help->v11 to v17 Upgrade or New?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Kirk, I think any mechanism that can export 4D code as text (plain text, JSON, 
XML, etc) can be used via GitHub to at least manage method changes. So, with 
the new v17r3 we have a native way to share the entire structure which will 
allow us to use version control. However, the limitations seem to be that we 
can not pull a version from a Git repository and integrate that back into 4D. I 
assume that’s coming to a 4D version near you, but as I understand it, we don’t 
have that ability just yet. It’s a one way street although a very welcome one.

FWIW,

Robert

> On Oct 19, 2018, at 6:28 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Did I just hear you say something about uploading direct from 4D into
> GitHub... 

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Re: Application Metrics

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Jody, how did your deployed app phone home?

Thanks,

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 4, 2018, at 8:38 AM, Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> This information with the doctor information removed was sent to our central 
> server to accumulate.

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Re: Help->v11 to v17 Upgrade or New?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Patrick or Dani, how might your tool help identify what needs to change?

R

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 19, 2018, at 2:09 AM, Patrick Emanuel via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Some tools can help you like QS_Toolbox from me or CodeAnalysis from Dani
> Beaubien for example, and they should help you to idenify what to update for
> your migration.
> These tools are free and very helpful.

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Re: Help->v11 to v17 Upgrade or New?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Okay, I can’t find it now but someone said, "hey pop it into v17 and see if it 
works…" or something like that. Well, I did just that and without any changes 
it compiled (after toggling unicode on) and I created a built server and client 
and ran a few tests. Yes, as I recall, I did fix all of the syntax errors years 
ago. It seems to work for the most part (PICT icons and images do not show and 
a couple of fields cannot be used for data entry, I’m sure that’s an easy fix). 
I’m surprised this works at all! So, there are more than 700 lines of code with 
the deprecated “_o_” prefix. Perhaps I could make a lot of that go away via 
Search/Replace (a feature that I normally don’t use).

Thanks to all of you that have contributed. It looks like I can get this 
running as it did before via v17 so that it can run on their new hardware 
running the latest Windows server and Win10 clients…. Of course they want this 
yesterday, so I could deliver the converted one and then upgrade incrementally. 
Yes, it does look ugly as f*ck but sadly no one is complaining about that.

Thanks,

Robert

> On Oct 17, 2018, at 3:11 PM, Spencer Hinsdale via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> 4D automatically converts Subtables. This should not be a problem.

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