Re: Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

I will add my 2 cents worth here too. I agree with Jeff.

As a previous post noted a big cause of this problem was Apple. They forced 
change on us, and on 4D. I was involved in an industry where each month brought 
new requirements that were forced upon us by various governments that we had to 
implement and show in testing that we conformed. Now that was a real juggling 
act with all that was going on with 4D, Microsoft, and Apple in a high pressure 
game. We were doing it, and there were few that were and they had some industry 
giant tools.

I really appreciate where 4D is heading with their product line. A lot of good 
stuff has come out in the 4 years I was able to sit on the sideline. 
Fortunately for me I could, and am ramping up again and my hope is that this 
will meld with a maturing of all the new products that 4D is working on. Of 
course I also hope that Microsoft and Apple will not upset the ‘Apple Cart’ yet 
again.

This discussion is not new in the 4D world. In the years since version 2.0.10 
(was that 1988?) that I started with 4D I have tried out other tools to met 
various needs. As it turns out we eventually left most of those tools as they 
too could not manage the juggling act of revenue - Apple - Windows - 32 to 
64bit etc.

I understand and feel the pain of all involved including those at 4D. 
Technology is a much different world than raising milking goats, fruit, and 
dogs that I spend much of my time in now.

Jody


> On Feb 2, 2018, at 7:12 AM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> On the other hand, the majority who don't need to integrate word processing 
> are probably thinking "why the heck are they spending so much time and 
> resources trying to reinvent word processing when they could be working on 
> "?
> 
> I can see both points of view, but for 4D Write I do think 4D has shown a 
> steady dedication and commitment to taking an ancient tool and moving it 
> forward into current technology. That email wording was probably a mistake 
> though -- unless 4D has decided that 32 bit applications are ending with v16 
> (which I don't think is the case).
> 
> --
> Jeffrey Kain
> jeffrey.k...@gmail.com
> 

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Re: Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

I think 32-bit applications will live on a lot longer than 2 years on Windows.  
I haven't read anything that even hints that Microsoft is thinking about ending 
32-bit application support.  Heck, they still support 16-bit apps on 32-bit 
Windows.

I would expect 32-bit versions of Windows operating systems to disappear 
someday, but that's different from not supporting 32-bit applications.

Apple, on the other hand well, that's why we all love Apple so much.  Out 
with old, in with the new!

--
Jeffrey Kain
jeffrey.k...@gmail.com


> On Feb 2, 2018, at 11:21 AM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> We still have maybe 2 years before it becomes a pressing concern when macOS 
> and Windows end support for 32bit applications.

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Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech]

On Feb 2, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Don Lapin wrote:

> Please let us know what you find out, Tim. From here it's looking like there 
> was never any intention of creating anything but a fig leaf.


Hi Don,

I definitely will. I’m sure the end result of 4D Write Pro will be a big 
improvement over the very aged plugin. Probably a few features lost, but many 
more added. Plus it will be positioned to last for another 20 years in its 
current iteration. 

Remember that there is no big hurry to move to 4D Write Pro. We still have 
maybe 2 years before it becomes a pressing concern when macOS and Windows end 
support for 32bit applications.

From my perspective it is only “required” if you want to run 64bit 4D client 
right now. If you can hang on to 32bit 4D client you should be able to wait 
until 4D Write Pro is “completed’ and “ready” for all purpose use. 

Tim

Tim Nevels 
timnev...@mac.com 
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444


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Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

Especially with 4D supporting the Blink engine on both platforms. I haven't yet 
tried doing any web integrations with a version of 4D that uses Blink, but I'm 
really hopeful that it makes things a lot smoother.

--
Jeffrey Kain
jeffrey.k...@gmail.com

On Feb 2, 2018, at 11:06 AM, Benedict, Tom via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
wrote:

> I meant to add that if you are going to go to the trouble of writing a bunch 
> of code to make 4D Write Pro work as you need, it might be a smaller effort 
> to write the code needed to integrate one of the Javascript word processor 
> libraries to your app.

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RE: Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Benedict, Tom via 4D_Tech]

Whoops. Sent too soon..

I meant to add that if you are going to go to the trouble of writing a bunch of 
code to make 4D Write Pro work as you need, it might be a smaller effort to 
write the code needed to integrate one of the Javascript word processor 
libraries to your app.

Tom

From: Benedict, Tom
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 7:57 AM
To: 4D_Tech@lists.4D.com
Subject: Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email


There are plenty of Javascript text editor libraries available.

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Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Benedict, Tom via 4D_Tech]

There are plenty of Javascript text editor libraries available.

This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
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Re: Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

On the other hand, the majority who don't need to integrate word processing are 
probably thinking "why the heck are they spending so much time and resources 
trying to reinvent word processing when they could be working on "?

I can see both points of view, but for 4D Write I do think 4D has shown a 
steady dedication and commitment to taking an ancient tool and moving it 
forward into current technology. That email wording was probably a mistake 
though -- unless 4D has decided that 32 bit applications are ending with v16 
(which I don't think is the case).

--
Jeffrey Kain
jeffrey.k...@gmail.com




> On Feb 2, 2018, at 6:41 AM, Don Lapin via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Please let us know what you find out, Tim. From here it's looking like there 
> was never any intention of creating anything but a fig leaf.

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Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Don Lapin via 4D_Tech]

Please let us know what you find out, Tim. From here it's looking like there 
was never any intention of creating anything but a fig leaf.

Thanks,
Don


>The big question now is, what is still on that list of things the 4D
>Write Plugin can do that 4D Write Pro still cannot do? If there is a
>feature that is super hard to implement, and nobody uses or asked for
>it, why would they want to spend time implementing it? So I'm expecting
>there to be a short list of things 4D Write Pro will not do that 4D
>Write Plugin does. Emphasis SHORT LIST.
>
>So at this year's 4D Summit I am going to seek out the 4D Write Pro
>engineers and ask them specifically for a list of features 4D Write Pro
>will not provide that 4D Write Plugin does. Will they say "the list is
>empty we are are implementing everything"? Doubtful. Hopefully that list
>will not contain anything that I need. If it does, then I'll have to
>lobby, and lobby hard, for them to add the features I need to 4D Write Pro.

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Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Paul Lovejoy via 4D_Tech]

We’ve been using 4D Write quite extensively for years. We have over 200 user 
licences on two big databases. We mostly use it now to generate html emails.

We haven’t undertaken the move to downgrade to the “pro” version, which we are 
not looking forward to at all.

4D has been gutting functionality for years in areas they called plugins such 
as 4D Chart.

I can appreciate their business constraints but we have ours too.


Paul


> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 18:00, Charles Miller via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> a 
> écrit :
> 
> The more things change the more they stay the same. 4D like any company
> makes decision on how to spend money. There are probably not enough users
> of 4D write to warrant the cost associated with porting to 64 bit. While
> this hurts at one of my customers, think of it this way. How many of you
> used to work using Foxbase, dBase, Omnis, to name a few. Just be greatful
> that the company has been able to keep up with the times and is still a
> viable product.
> 
> Just my 2 cents
> 
> Regards
> Chuck
> 
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 9:53 AM, Herr Alexander Heintz via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
>> I have been using 4D Write Pro for quite some time now as an editor for
>> E-Mails.
>> Porting the functionality I had before using 4d Write (mostly dynamic
>> access to data) was quite simple.
>> Nevertheless, there is quite a lot missing for it to replace 4D Write for
>> those who need a „real“ text editor.
>> 4D Write has been ignored by 4D for ages and the new 4D Write Pro falls
>> short on a lot of things.
>> On the other hand, functionality like 4D Write is used only ba a small
>> percentage of developers, and I am quite baffled, that it is the only
>> special functionality where no plugin developer has come up with something
>> optional (OK, 4D Chart qualifies as well).
>> Could developing a Plugin like 4D Write with modern functionality really
>> bee so difficult as not to be commercially viable?
>> I mean there are (huge) plugins for
>> - Reporting
>> - Drawing
>> - Scheduling
>> - GridTools
>> - Graphics
>> - etc
>> - etc
>> 
>> Come on you plugin developers, give us a real Word processing Plugin and
>> there will be a market for it.
>> Sadly this kind of development is out of my league, or i’d do it.
>> 
>> My 2ct
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Alex
>> **
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> -
> Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306 Fax: (617) 232-1064
> Informed Solutions, Inc.
> Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
>   Providers of 4D, Sybase & SQL Server connectivity
>  http://www.informed-solutions.com
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Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech]

On Feb 1, 2018, at 4:17 PM, Chip Scheide wrote:

> In principle, it should be possible to create a text editor in 4D 
> itself.
> 
> I believe that the 4D design interface is built in/with 4D.  If this is 
> true, you should be able to build a tailorable text editor inside 4D. 
> The Method editor while not perfect, is a usable text editor.
> 
> IF that is true (creating a text editor in 4D) then adding the ability 
> to reference 4D data should not be too hard, not that I am about to do 
> either of these projects :)
> 
> I have no idea about creating anything compatible with Word...


I’ll chime in on this topic because I have 2 clients that make extensive use of 
4D Write. They have “Letter Template” tables with hundreds of 4D Write 
documents they have created over many, many years that are used for all sorts 
of mail merge type things. Exactly what 4D Write was designed to be used for.

For one client, I’ve also done some extensive 4D Write programming using the 
plugin commands to do very complex document creation. I also implemented a 
“print preview” option that allows the user to do a “mail merge” and have it 
create a single, new 4D Write document from all the individual 4D Write 
documents combined so the user can review/edit them before doing the actual 
print. 

This may sound easy, but it’s not when you have to deal with complex 4D Write 
documents that have headers and footers and multiple imbedded images in the 4D 
Write documents. It can be done, but it is a lot of work and makes extensive 
use of many 4D Write Plugin command most have probably never needed to use. But 
they are there to allow doing this kind of complex document manipulation. Will 
4D Write Pro have the same extensive programming capabilities? We don’t know 
yet. 

Of course, some day I will upgrade these clients to use 4D Write Pro. There 
current licenses will work, so no extra expense there. But there will be 
signification expense for the one client that I’ve done the extensive 4D Write 
work for. All my existing code will have to be rewritten. ALL. Every single 
line. And that’s over 50 methods and some with literally hundreds of lines of 
code. Totally new logic too. Just just swapping out old plugin commands with 
equivalent new commands. This will be a big, big job.

Of course, I’m looking forward to rewriting all this code and getting paid $$$ 
for doing it. 

My client is absolutely not looking forward to paying for this. Mainly because 
they will receive no obvious benefits from all the reprogramming. Everything is 
working fine now. After the rewrite to use 4D Write Pro everything should work 
exactly the same and produce documents that look exactly the same. Everyone 
understand this. Nobody likes it. But it’s one of those things that must be 
done at some point in the future when we MUST move to a pure 64bit 4D version. 
That’s the only sales point for this client. It must be done to be 64bit 
compliant. 

I’ve been waiting for 4D Write Pro to mature and provide all the features and 
capabilities in the language to do all the things the current 4D Write plugin 
can do. I have to continue waiting because it is still missing some features. 
Only in the last few months did they finally add command to allow 
programmatically manipulating headers and footers. And placing images on the 
background only appeared recently. 

I remember vividly when 4D Write Pro was first announced at a 4D Summit several 
years ago that one of the bullet points put up on the big screen was “4D Write 
Pro will have ALL THE FEATURES the current 4D Write plugin provides.”  I 
emphasized “all the features” because they made a point of saying that and me 
and several other developers specifically asked about it. FULL FEATURE PARITY 
was the goal. You would be able to open any existing 4D Write document and 
nothing would be lost or changed. Full backwards compatibility if you will. 

We all knew that 4D Write Pro would be released incrementally. As features are 
added and ready they would be released. That’s the new 4D way. Don’t wait 
forever until something is done. Deliver what you can when you can and build on 
it until it is done. 

I have no problem with this type of deployment. In fact, that is exactly how I 
deploy my database applications to clients. Why wait 6 months and get nothing? 
They get something every month for 6 months. Always something new each month 
until the project is done.

I’m guessing that the 4D engineers made a list of every single 4D Write feature 
and plugin command. Then they decided what they would implement first. What was 
required, in their mind. What was needed, in their minds. What was easy. And 
the work began.

The big question now is, what is still on that list of things the 4D Write 
Plugin can do that 4D Write Pro still cannot do? If there is a feature that is 
super hard to implement, and nobody uses or asked for it, why would they want 
to spend time implementing it? So I’m expecting there to 

Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech]

In principle, it should be possible to create a text editor in 4D 
itself.

I believe that the 4D design interface is built in/with 4D.  If this is 
true, you should be able to build a tailorable text editor inside 4D. 
The Method editor while not perfect, is a usable text editor.

IF that is true (creating a text editor in 4D) then adding the ability 
to reference 4D data should not be too hard, not that I am about to do 
either of these projects :)

I have no idea about creating anything compatible with Word...

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:18:36 +0100, Peter Bozek via 4D_Tech wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 3:53 PM, Herr Alexander Heintz via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
>> Come on you plugin developers, give us a real Word processing Plugin and
>> there will be a market for it.
>> Sadly this kind of development is out of my league, or i’d do it.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> Definitely, do not do it. 4D plugins are currently cut out of system
> interaction. 4D assumes that external area will receive all events - mouse,
> keyboard etc - from 4D.
> 
> On other hand, it is not possible to write a decent text editor that does
> not heavily depend on system services - from measuring text, multi language
> support, font replacement, cursor placement and behaviour etc.. With modern
> operating systems, it means providing system with callback that are called
> as needed. That is extremely difficult, if not outright impossible, with 4D.
> 
> --
> 
> Peter Bozek
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Peter Bozek via 4D_Tech]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 3:53 PM, Herr Alexander Heintz via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Come on you plugin developers, give us a real Word processing Plugin and
> there will be a market for it.
> Sadly this kind of development is out of my league, or i’d do it.
>
>
>
>
Definitely, do not do it. 4D plugins are currently cut out of system
interaction. 4D assumes that external area will receive all events - mouse,
keyboard etc - from 4D.

On other hand, it is not possible to write a decent text editor that does
not heavily depend on system services - from measuring text, multi language
support, font replacement, cursor placement and behaviour etc.. With modern
operating systems, it means providing system with callback that are called
as needed. That is extremely difficult, if not outright impossible, with 4D.

--

Peter Bozek
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Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Alan Chan via 4D_Tech]

Omnis is still around and very alive.

Alan Chan

4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> writes:
>How many of you
>used to work using Foxbase, dBase, Omnis, to name a few. Just be greatful
>that the company has been able to keep up with the times and is still a
>viable product.

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Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Charles Miller via 4D_Tech]

The more things change the more they stay the same. 4D like any company
makes decision on how to spend money. There are probably not enough users
of 4D write to warrant the cost associated with porting to 64 bit. While
this hurts at one of my customers, think of it this way. How many of you
used to work using Foxbase, dBase, Omnis, to name a few. Just be greatful
that the company has been able to keep up with the times and is still a
viable product.

Just my 2 cents

Regards
Chuck

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 9:53 AM, Herr Alexander Heintz via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> I have been using 4D Write Pro for quite some time now as an editor for
> E-Mails.
> Porting the functionality I had before using 4d Write (mostly dynamic
> access to data) was quite simple.
> Nevertheless, there is quite a lot missing for it to replace 4D Write for
> those who need a „real“ text editor.
> 4D Write has been ignored by 4D for ages and the new 4D Write Pro falls
> short on a lot of things.
> On the other hand, functionality like 4D Write is used only ba a small
> percentage of developers, and I am quite baffled, that it is the only
> special functionality where no plugin developer has come up with something
> optional (OK, 4D Chart qualifies as well).
> Could developing a Plugin like 4D Write with modern functionality really
> bee so difficult as not to be commercially viable?
> I mean there are (huge) plugins for
> - Reporting
> - Drawing
> - Scheduling
> - GridTools
> - Graphics
> - etc
> - etc
>
> Come on you plugin developers, give us a real Word processing Plugin and
> there will be a market for it.
> Sadly this kind of development is out of my league, or i’d do it.
>
> My 2ct
>
> Cheers
> Alex
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
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>



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 Informed Solutions, Inc.
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  http://www.informed-solutions.com
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Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Herr Alexander Heintz via 4D_Tech]

I have been using 4D Write Pro for quite some time now as an editor for E-Mails.
Porting the functionality I had before using 4d Write (mostly dynamic access to 
data) was quite simple.
Nevertheless, there is quite a lot missing for it to replace 4D Write for those 
who need a „real“ text editor.
4D Write has been ignored by 4D for ages and the new 4D Write Pro falls short 
on a lot of things.
On the other hand, functionality like 4D Write is used only ba a small 
percentage of developers, and I am quite baffled, that it is the only special 
functionality where no plugin developer has come up with something optional 
(OK, 4D Chart qualifies as well).
Could developing a Plugin like 4D Write with modern functionality really bee so 
difficult as not to be commercially viable?
I mean there are (huge) plugins for
- Reporting
- Drawing
- Scheduling
- GridTools
- Graphics
- etc
- etc

Come on you plugin developers, give us a real Word processing Plugin and there 
will be a market for it.
Sadly this kind of development is out of my league, or i’d do it.

My 2ct

Cheers
Alex
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Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Richard Wright via 4D_Tech]

If 4D Write Pro doesn’t, and won’t, have all the features of 4D Write then 4D 
should give it a different name instead of pretending that it’s a replacement. 
I’ve been totally baffled by this seemingly endless piecemeal rollout of a 
“pro” product. I remember getting an email a couple years ago announcing the 
spectacular ability of 4D Write Pro to save documents!! What’s the point? 
Why not finalize it and then announce it? Eventually 32 bit support is going 
away and that means 4D Write is going away and if 4D Write Pro isn’t going to 
have all the features then we ought to be told the details now so we can make 
the appropriate plans. Here’s my feature request: I want 4D Write Pro to have 
all the features of 4D Write.


Richard Wright
DataDomain
rwri...@datadomainsoftware.com


> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 22:49:11 +
> From: Brian Young 
> 
> Hi Don,
> 
> If you haven’t already, please add your concern about "Export to MS Word" to 
> the 4D Forum where the Product team can see it and respond. Here is a feature 
> request you can up-vote:
> 
> http://forums.4d.com/Post/EN/20813501/1/20814772#20814772
> 
> Among the posts linked in the email today is one that gives example code to 
> build a toolbar similar to the one in 4D Write:
> 
> https://blog.4d.com/4d-write-like-toolbar-example-for-4d-write-pro/
> 
> We are working to make sure you and the 4D community are aware of the 
> resources already available by bundling 4D Write Pro related info together.
> 
> my very best
> 
> -Brian



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Re: Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Arnaud de Montard via 4D_Tech]

> Le 1 févr. 2018 à 02:28, Don Lapin via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> a écrit 
> :
> 
> Hi Brian,
> 
> You did not answer the question regarding whether 4D will continue to work 
> with 4D Write (the regular version, not the Pro). That's my primary concern 
> at the moment. 

Hi Don, 
I heard that in last summit in Paris (on stage, sounds "official"): there will 
never be a 4d write 64bits, 4d write is no longer supported, go to WP, we do 
our best to make it better every day. 
So the response to your question is in another: "how many time can I still use 
32b 4D apps". Apple said next MacOS won't.  

-- 
Arnaud de Montard 




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Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Don Lapin via 4D_Tech]

Hi Alfonso,

I agree with most of what you state here. My customers for this application are 
on Windows, so I'm not as concerned about the 64-bit thing. Apple's always 
dropping "last year's" technology, but Windows maintains good compatibility, 
even with their 64-bit systems.

Because the Write Pro product suffers from such a paucity of usefulness, I am 
hoping that they will at least allow plain 4D Write to run as a 32-bit plug in. 
Under present circumstances a "Goodbye 4D Write" email today seemed a bit 
off-key.

Thanks for responding,
Don


>Hi Don,
>
>I agree with you that 4D Write PRO can't replace today 4D Write.
>But, forget trying that 4D mantain 4D Write. Because MacOs High Sierra 
>is the last Mac Os working compatible 32 bits. So, all applications must 
>be 64 bits, in the future.
>4D Write PRO borned 64 bits for that reason.
>We have to ask 4D to get 4D Write PRO as close to 4D Write (commands), 
>as soon as possible.
>There are great commands in 4D Write like "WR Direct find" . Would it be 
>on 4D Write PRO ?
>
>Idemsoft
>Alfonso

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Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Bernd Fröhlich via 4D_Tech]

Don Lapin:

> You did not answer the question regarding whether 4D will continue to work 
> with 4D Write (the regular version, not the Pro). That's my primary concern 
> at the moment.

From my understanding the "old" 4D Write will continue working in 32Bit 
versions of 4D. There will be no 64Bit versions of 4D Write.

I sincerely hope that V17 and maybe V18 will still be available in 32Bit 
versions so we can continue using Write until WritePro will offer all the 
features of the old Write.

One thing that is missing for me is freely placing pictures on a page.

Rewriting all the old code will be a PITA for sure, but I guess it will have to 
be done sometimes in the next few years.
Fine with me, but I can only rewrite my code if the new version covers all the 
options that exist in the old version.
My users rightfully would complain if a new version would miss some features 
that have been there for decades.

Greetings from Germany,
Bernd Fröhlich
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Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Alfonso Zafon via 4D_Tech]

Hi Don,

I agree with you that 4D Write PRO can't replace today 4D Write.
But, forget trying that 4D mantain 4D Write. Because MacOs High Sierra 
is the last Mac Os working compatible 32 bits. So, all applications must 
be 64 bits, in the future.

4D Write PRO borned 64 bits for that reason.
We have to ask 4D to get 4D Write PRO as close to 4D Write (commands), 
as soon as possible.
There are great commands in 4D Write like "WR Direct find" . Would it be 
on 4D Write PRO ?


Idemsoft
Alfonso

El 01/02/2018 a las 2:28, Don Lapin via 4D_Tech escribió:

Hi Brian,

You did not answer the question regarding whether 4D will continue to work with 
4D Write (the regular version, not the Pro). That's my primary concern at the 
moment.

Since my rep told me that it would continue to work at the last developer event in San 
Jose, I don't understand why I would be getting a "Goodbye" email at this 
point. Was he wrong? Did I understand him incorrectly? This product is based on the 
functionality and capability of 4D Write, as painful as it was to write those lines of 
code.

With regard to Pro, last I looked it had a ruler which blocks a much larger 
amount of the writing area (*thick* vertically), making the writing area too 
small on detailed forms.

The existing 4D Write menus and toolbar use about 2.5 cm on the form, leaving 
about 8.5 cm of useful area (before zoom) for composing. The example you linked 
to, of a 4D Write Pro toolbar and menu combination, is about twice as thick. I 
think I have seen that example before.

How would someone be able to use a word processing area over half of which is 
taken over by those thick elements?

Fold in:
  
- the apparent absence of the rich command set available in 4D Write, particularly commands involving procedural generation of forms and style sheets;

- the absence of control for placing graphics on forms;
- the absence of Word-compatible style sheets;
- the absence of a Word export;

...what is left that's of any utility?

Given how intuitive the existing 4D Write interface is for the average, 
word-processing-type user, why would 4D abandon that? Why do the 4D developers, 
rather than the developers of 4D, need to spend hours trying to reproduce a 
detailed, compact interface that was already in the product?

Please find some answers if you can. A negative answer to the first one would 
make a product that I have spent most of my time working on since early 2015 
become useless in new versions of 4d. These are all Windows users, so I have no 
interest in 64-bit stuff.


Thank you for responding,
Don




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Re(2): "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Don Lapin via 4D_Tech]

Hi Brian,

You did not answer the question regarding whether 4D will continue to work with 
4D Write (the regular version, not the Pro). That's my primary concern at the 
moment. 

Since my rep told me that it would continue to work at the last developer event 
in San Jose, I don't understand why I would be getting a "Goodbye" email at 
this point. Was he wrong? Did I understand him incorrectly? This product is 
based on the functionality and capability of 4D Write, as painful as it was to 
write those lines of code.

With regard to Pro, last I looked it had a ruler which blocks a much larger 
amount of the writing area (*thick* vertically), making the writing area too 
small on detailed forms. 

The existing 4D Write menus and toolbar use about 2.5 cm on the form, leaving 
about 8.5 cm of useful area (before zoom) for composing. The example you linked 
to, of a 4D Write Pro toolbar and menu combination, is about twice as thick. I 
think I have seen that example before.

How would someone be able to use a word processing area over half of which is 
taken over by those thick elements? 

Fold in:
 
- the apparent absence of the rich command set available in 4D Write, 
particularly commands involving procedural generation of forms and style sheets;
- the absence of control for placing graphics on forms;
- the absence of Word-compatible style sheets;
- the absence of a Word export;

...what is left that's of any utility?

Given how intuitive the existing 4D Write interface is for the average, 
word-processing-type user, why would 4D abandon that? Why do the 4D developers, 
rather than the developers of 4D, need to spend hours trying to reproduce a 
detailed, compact interface that was already in the product?  

Please find some answers if you can. A negative answer to the first one would 
make a product that I have spent most of my time working on since early 2015 
become useless in new versions of 4d. These are all Windows users, so I have no 
interest in 64-bit stuff.


Thank you for responding, 
Don



>Hi Don,
>
>If you haven't already, please add your concern about "Export to MS
>Word" to the 4D Forum where the Product team can see it and respond.
>Here is a feature request you can up-vote:
>
>http://forums.4d.com/Post/EN/20813501/1/20814772#20814772
>
>Among the posts linked in the email today is one that gives example code
>to build a toolbar similar to the one in 4D Write:
>
>https://blog.4d.com/4d-write-like-toolbar-example-for-4d-write-pro/
>
>We are working to make sure you and the 4D community are aware of the
>resources already available by bundling 4D Write Pro related info together.
>
>my very best
>
>-Brian
>
>
>
>   
>Brian Young
>Technical Marketing Manager
>Telephone :+1-408-557-4626
>Email :byo...@4d.com
>Web :  www.4D.com  
>4D inc
>95 S. Market Street, Suite #240
>95113 San Jose - United States
>Standard : +1-408-557-4600
>Fax :  +1-408-271-5080
> 
>On Jan 31, 2018, at 12:59 PM, Don Lapin via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.
>4d.com> wrote:
>
>Did anyone else get this "Goodbye 4D Write" email today?
>
>I was told by my rep that 4D Write would continue to work with future
>versions of the program. I have over 200 customers on a 4D Write-based
>application. Thousands of lines of code that procedurally assemble long
>OSHA, Canadian, and EU chemical compliance-related documents. Complete
>with Word-compatible style sheets and the export directly into the Word
>(.doc) format. It's one of our biggest selling points compared to the
>competition. 
>
>When I last looked at their so-called "Pro" version, it had a tiny
>fraction of the capability of 4D Write, and a clunky, witless widget
>interface that won't even fit on my forms. No Word export. After all
>time that they have taken to make a replacement, they came up with this.
>
>Am I not up to speed with progress on the "pro" version? Does it have a
>normal interface again? Can it procedurally assemble documents with Word
>style sheets and a Word export?
>
>Please let me know if you know more, or if I am mistaken.
>
>Thanks,
>Don
>
>
>
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Re: "Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Brian Young via 4D_Tech]

Hi Don,

If you haven’t already, please add your concern about "Export to MS Word" to 
the 4D Forum where the Product team can see it and respond. Here is a feature 
request you can up-vote:

http://forums.4d.com/Post/EN/20813501/1/20814772#20814772

Among the posts linked in the email today is one that gives example code to 
build a toolbar similar to the one in 4D Write:

https://blog.4d.com/4d-write-like-toolbar-example-for-4d-write-pro/

We are working to make sure you and the 4D community are aware of the resources 
already available by bundling 4D Write Pro related info together.

my very best

-Brian





On Jan 31, 2018, at 12:59 PM, Don Lapin via 4D_Tech 
<4d_tech@lists.4d.com<mailto:4d_tech@lists.4d.com>> wrote:

Did anyone else get this "Goodbye 4D Write" email today?

I was told by my rep that 4D Write would continue to work with future versions 
of the program. I have over 200 customers on a 4D Write-based application. 
Thousands of lines of code that procedurally assemble long OSHA, Canadian, and 
EU chemical compliance-related documents. Complete with Word-compatible style 
sheets and the export directly into the Word (.doc) format. It's one of our 
biggest selling points compared to the competition.

When I last looked at their so-called "Pro" version, it had a tiny fraction of 
the capability of 4D Write, and a clunky, witless widget interface that won't 
even fit on my forms. No Word export. After all time that they have taken to 
make a replacement, they came up with this.

Am I not up to speed with progress on the "pro" version? Does it have a normal 
interface again? Can it procedurally assemble documents with Word style sheets 
and a Word export?

Please let me know if you know more, or if I am mistaken.

Thanks,
Don



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"Goodbye 4D Write" email

[Don Lapin via 4D_Tech]

Did anyone else get this "Goodbye 4D Write" email today?

I was told by my rep that 4D Write would continue to work with future versions 
of the program. I have over 200 customers on a 4D Write-based application. 
Thousands of lines of code that procedurally assemble long OSHA, Canadian, and 
EU chemical compliance-related documents. Complete with Word-compatible style 
sheets and the export directly into the Word (.doc) format. It's one of our 
biggest selling points compared to the competition. 

When I last looked at their so-called "Pro" version, it had a tiny fraction of 
the capability of 4D Write, and a clunky, witless widget interface that won't 
even fit on my forms. No Word export. After all time that they have taken to 
make a replacement, they came up with this.

Am I not up to speed with progress on the "pro" version? Does it have a normal 
interface again? Can it procedurally assemble documents with Word style sheets 
and a Word export?

Please let me know if you know more, or if I am mistaken.

Thanks,
Don



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