Re: [AFMUG] Pot

[Adam Moffett]

Well…it is expensive, but fortunately I meet the insurance deductible by June 
every year due to wife and kids getting allergy shots.  After that the 
prescription copay is not so bad.  I skip the meds every weekend so I won’t 
build tolerance, and it lets me build my own secret reserve for times when 
availability is an issue.  I can’t say I ever felt like doing anything crazy or 
butchering anyone.

And yeah, I’m glad I don’t have any severe allergies.  The shots are a couple 
hundred bucks every week and then like 800 every 6 weeks or so when they get a 
new serum made.  And they need that for several years to make the effects 
permanent.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Steve Jones 

Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2024 2:31:23 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

Id love to be on ADHD meds, but that prescription availability/price is a crazy 
risk. Folks find themselves doing wildly insane things when their meds suddenly 
cant be refilled, like butchering their family.

As for the prescribed pot BS, I have found that most of the people with a 
medical card didnt get it from their primary physician, they went to a mill doc 
and got the bought card. They have all kinds of reasons why they cant use the 
non intoxicating variants. Truth is theyre simply potheads with a get out of 
jail free card who its best to find any of the other reasons you can find to 
terminate their employment. Most of these types, its not hard to find a reason 
thats not related to their dependence on a weed.

On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 1:34 PM Ken Hohhof 
mailto:khoh...@kwom.com>> wrote:

People who take Vyvanse or even the generic equivalent probably wish they could 
make their own.  It ain’t cheap.



I thought we were now out of the 6 months exclusivity that the first generic 
gets, but the price hasn’t come down, and there are still shortages.  
Supposedly demand was up because people without any particular condition take 
it as kind of a performance enhancing drug.



If it works for someone’s ADHD symptoms, then you don’t want to be unable to 
refill your prescription and go back to feeling like a 4th of July fireworks 
show inside your brain.  Oddly, people with ADHD can also be somewhat autistic, 
they can go down a rabbit hole focusing on one thing for hours, but they can’t 
multitask because of all the mental distractions.  SQUIRREL!



Sometimes I suspect social media is giving everybody the equivalent of ADHD.  I 
have 5 things to do today.  Oh, look, Facebook.  Tiktok.  Texts.  Now where did 
the day go?



It makes me feel like a drug dealer selling Internet.



From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2024 12:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot



After my last meth lab blew up my motor home, I quit doing it.







From: dmmoff...@gmail.com

Sent: Monday, May 6, 2024 11:07 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot



I started on lisdexamfetamine recently.  My productivity is much higher.  My 
focus still drifts elsewhere, but I find I recenter on my main task more 
quickly.



ADHD is profoundly genetic by the way.  If your son has it then you or his 
mother does.  The current thinking is that it’s so widespread because it’s a 
survival adaptation which happens to not always fit well into the structures of 
our modern life.  A study in Kenya compared a nomadic population with a settled 
one.  The genes responsible are well known, so they could identify who in each 
population had them and compare their outcomes.  Among the settled population 
the kids with ADHD genes had worse grades in school, and the adults were less 
well nourished.  Among the hunter-gatherer nomads, the people with ADHD genes 
were more well nourished.



We probably shouldn’t medicate kids for it as much as we do, but I’m saying in 
my case a little bump of amphetamine in the morning does me good.



-Adam







From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Ken Hohhof
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2024 3:50 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot



OK, looking at it another way. Some people need meds to be normal. My son has a 
prescription for lisdexamfetamine because he has ADHD. He's not impaired, and 
it's not like he's a meth head.

That said, I can see a problem if your employee wants to smoke a joint in the 
workplace. Bigtime secondhand smoke problem. And if you don't want him 
operating machinery or vehicles, your insurance company would probably agree.

Has he asked to bring his emotional support alligator to work yet?

 Original Message 
From: "Jan-GAMs"
Sent: 5/3/2024 2:20:33 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

First I would ask for the Dr. to call me.  2nd 

Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

[Adam Moffett]

I wonder if it would work as 4x 25gig links.  Should be able to configure it 
that way.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Chuck McCown via AF 

Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 5:36:06 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

Gotta think of the Fourier series of the pulse.  Yes group velocities or group 
delay of the whole enchalada.  It is all kinda the same thing.  They were doing 
some kind of soliton fiber development.  Haven’t heard much for some time about 
that.  No idea how frequency pure/coherent the tx is.  I imagine phase 
coherency is a big deal.



From: Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 4:12 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels


Looks like different wavelengths have different group velocities, so 
compensation is possible (but probably not cheap?).



Is this because the transmitter doesn’t generate literally a single wavelength? 
 Or is this a WDM issue?  Chuck says the pulses get smeared out in time, that 
sounds like the first one.



From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 3:56 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels



Yeah, the pulses tend to get smeared out in time if there is too much 
dispersion.  Similar to trying to use too high level of QAM with SNR issues.



From: Josh Luthman

Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 12:26 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels



Even if the RX level is good?

> rx was within 0.3dBm on all 4 lanes on both sides



On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 1:22 PM Daniel Pautz via AF  wrote:

Yeah makes me think the two paths have different loss.   We have had that on 
mirrored paths,  or even single paths with crappy splices on one of the strands.



From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 11:12 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels



Did anyone do dispersion testing on the fiber?



Chuck McCown
McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503
435-830-4306 cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench-blades.com
www.terabitnetworks.com



From: Zach Underwood

Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 12:07 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels



tired again this morning and still no link. rx was within 0.3dBm on all 4 lanes 
on both sides. We got 10gb 80km to link up. This will do for now. We will be 
looking at getting 40gb 80km single lane optics or adding another site to fiber 
loop to shorten the footage to under 40km.



On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 11:14 AM Colin Stanners  wrote:

So both of those SFPs are within the tx power range.



100G may not work on a link that long unless you have dispersion compensation 
fiber on the path or in a huge loop in a box style at one end.



You likely cannot change tx power levels on those SFPs, they will run at the 
max they can do for that specific unit.



On Wed, Jan 24, 2024, 7:46 a.m. Zach Underwood  wrote:

TX Power   2~6.5dBm



I am struggling to get this 100gb link up. In the field this link is quoted at 
31 miles. The rx levels are -22 and -20 on both sides but I can't get it to 
link. I take the same optics to the lab and add 20dbm of attenuator to get 
almost the same rx levels as the field and it will link up.

I have added error-correction encoding reed-solomon per the user guide for 
links over 40km.

So far I have not found a way to change the TX levels in arista, the options 
are in the CLI but they dont seem to change the outcome. For me this is the 
first time dealing with 80km optics or 100gb optics over 10km.

switch is Arista DCS-7060SX2-48YC6-R



https://resource.fs.com/mall/doc/20230531114903y4ljxw.pdf
https://www.fs.com/products/115818.html?attribute=29032=3462585



On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 8:35 AM Colin Stanners  wrote:

There should be. What does their datasheey indicate for tx power range?



On Wed, Jan 24, 2024, 7:31 a.m. Zach Underwood  wrote:

Yep labels identical but there is a difference in default power levels.



On Wed, Jan 24, 2024, 8:13 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

Oh, meaning the variance between the two, otherwise identical models?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP







From: "Zach Underwood" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2024 12:51:39 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

I got 2x 100gb 80km optics from FS that run difficult default TX power levels 
one is 3.81dBm and the other 

Re: [AFMUG] Ken Hohof

[Adam Moffett]

I always miss his wisdom.
I know an election years is coming, but Steve & Jamie please behave yourselves 
this time.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Chuck McCown via AF 

Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2023 1:08:02 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: [AFMUG] Ken Hohof

Everbuddy say welcome back Ken!!!

Sent from my iPhone


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Modbus

[Adam Moffett]

That line from the vertiv manual is so cryptic.

If the there isn’t a standard set of registers for this purpose then there must 
be a specific AC meter it supports.  I don’t see one on the listed accessories 
in the literature though.

Meanwhile the same manual has explicit instructions for setting up to get data 
from a particular brand of battery controller with modbus.  On the topic of AC 
meters I just get, “oh yeah we can meters with modbus.”

I did send a message to support.  I’ll bet $5 they don’t know either.

Thanks for all the info everyone.


Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AF  on behalf of Forrest Christian (List 
Account) 
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 4:08:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Modbus

Yes, and no.

The modbus protocol defines how to move data between two devices.  However, the 
contents of the data being passed is vendor-defined and there aren't any 
industry standards I'm aware of (although it wouldn't surprise me if there 
were).

Every vendor that produces a modbus-capable device usually publishes some sort 
of guide to the modbus registers for each device.   For instance, a quick 
google search turned up this document:

https://www.vertiv.com/4ac5f2/globalassets/products/monitoring-control-and-management/monitoring/modbus-protocol-for-bdsu-reference-guide.pdf

"modbus register map" or "modbus communication guide" or simply "modbus" when 
added to your vendor or product name often will turn up the right document.

Just FYI, A couple of years ago, I would have suggested you provide me with the 
vendor of the equipment, and I'd make you a firmware load for the sitemonitor 
serial module to be able to read this, but that codebase needs to be re-written 
to support the base 3.   At some point in the future I'm going to resume doing 
those requests in which case you'd end up with a module which pulls data from 
this device.   Doesn't help you right now though.





On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:25 AM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Is it likely that AC meters for monitoring circuits or subpanels have a 
standard message format?


-Original Message-
From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Mark Radabaugh
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 10:52 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Modbus

Modbus is an ancient serial protocol to pass values back and forth.   It’s very 
open but also somewhat vendor specific.   You can send any message you like 
from A <->B but the two devices have to know what the specific message means.   
Various industries have defined the message content but I would be somewhat 
surprised if a Vertiv rectifier knows what to do with the information from a 
meter.

Tons of information online, and it’s not a hard protocol to code for.   Used to 
do it in BASIC years ago. There are two protocols - MODBUS and MODBUS RTU.  
 The RTU protocol is much more difficult to work with due to timing 
requirements, MODBUS itself is just standard serial at a baud rate and timing 
of responses is not critical at all.

Mark




> On Oct 26, 2023, at 7:38 AM, Adam Moffett 
> mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I've never used modbus.  I'm looking at AC usage meters that support modbus 
> over RS-485.   And the controller on my Vertiv rectifier says this in the 
> manual:
>
> "e) Modbus Protocol:  The NCU can communicate with an AC Meter using the 
> Modbus protocol."
>
> and that's literally all it says.  Is this something standardized where I 
> can expect any modbus capable AC meter to work the same?  Is this plug and 
> play or would I have to learn yet another discipline?
>
> If it's not an easy answer I can take it to Vertiv tech support.  Just 
> wondering if this group magically has the answer.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--
- Forrest
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] Modbus

[Adam Moffett]

I've never used modbus.  I'm looking at AC usage meters that support modbus
over RS-485.   And the controller on my Vertiv rectifier says this in the
manual:

"e) Modbus Protocol:  The NCU can communicate with an AC Meter using the
Modbus protocol."

and that's literally all it says.  Is this something standardized where
I can expect any modbus capable AC meter to work the same?  Is this plug
and play or would I have to learn yet another discipline?

If it's not an easy answer I can take it to Vertiv tech support.  Just
wondering if this group magically has the answer.
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] dumb OTDR question

[Adam Moffett]

It’s definitely a splitter

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AF  on behalf of Josh Luthman 

Sent: Friday, September 29, 2023 3:25:32 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb OTDR question

Probably not a splitter.  It gets very confused shooting past it (both our 
cheap China & the demo Veex).

On Fri, Sep 29, 2023 at 3:24 PM Trey Scarborough 
mailto:t...@3dsc.co>> wrote:

Could be a bad splice, but if it is a splitter it could just be an artifact of 
that. It all depends on the type of splitter you are using and what wavelength 
the OTDR is. It also depends what is on the other ends of the splitter. If that 
is a splitter with nothing spliced to one of the ends you  can get a reflection 
off of a dead end.

On 9/28/23 8:32 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
Can you have return loss (i.e. reflections) on bad fusion splices?

Attached trace is a splitter showing return loss.  It's supposed to be fusion 
spliced, not connectorized.  There are several of these on this project.  
Trying to figure out if contractor snuck in some incorrect parts or if he's got 
issues with his fusion splicer.  I'd assume it's bad splices, but maybe 
coincidentally the reflectance just happens to be about right for UPC 
connectors.


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] wispa

[Adam Moffett]

I think my parents still have it.

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 6:27 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> Wow, is vonage still a thing?
>
>
>
> *From:* Mike Hammett
> *Sent:* Friday, July 14, 2023 2:44 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] wispa
>
> *nods* I get them for everything that could exist relating to IT or ISPs.
>
> Do you want to know a list of Vonage customers? We'll sell you that list!
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Colin Stanners" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Friday, July 14, 2023 12:09:12 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] wispa
>
> It is likely unrelated in any way to WISPA, we get such emails for every
> event that we could possibly be related to, every few months.
>
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 10:34 a.m. Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> I wonder if wispa sanctions this spam?
>>
>> *From:* Alicia Paul
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 14, 2023 8:59 AM
>> *To:* sa...@go-mtc.com
>> *Subject:* Go-Mtc
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> Just wanted to do a quick follow-up on my below email.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please review my below email and let me know your interest.
>>
>>
>>
>> May I send quote/pricing details for decision-making?
>>
>>
>>
>> Looking forward to hearing from you.
>> Alicia
>> --
>>
>> *From:* Alicia Paul
>> *Sent: *Thursdy, July 13, 2023, 10:53 AM
>> *To:* sa...@go-mtc.com
>> *Subject:* Go-Mtc
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> We are happy to let you know that the pre-registered attendance list for
>> the “WISPAPALOOZA 2023” is now available to buy at the best possible price.
>>
>> Attendees: WISP Industry Professionals | Industry Experts |
>> Decision-Makers in the ISP Industry | Service Providers | Leading Suppliers
>> in the Fixed Wireless Internet Industry and many more…
>>
>> Please let me know your views, so that I can share the counts and pricing
>> details.
>>
>> I look forward to your response.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alicia Paul | Event Database Coordinator.
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] "Low pass" attenuator

[Adam Moffett]

Sorry no, I phrased it poorly. The actual receiver sensitivity is equivalent.  
By “sensitivity issue” I meant they’re being “sensitive” about strong signals.  
Like how I’m “sensitive” about being hit with a bat, but I don’t actually have 
a better than normal sense of touch.


Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AF  on behalf of castarritt 

Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 5:11:48 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] "Low pass" attenuator

So overload is -14db where the other one is -7, but is rx sensitivity also ~7db 
higher?  if it is, just pop a ~7db attenuator into it and all the weaker ONTs 
will still connect just fine.

On Wed, Jul 12, 2023 at 3:31 PM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

In my imagination I picture something with microsecond response time that only 
affects the signal from the stronger ONT.

If signal is stronger than -15 then reduce it by 5dB.



Maybe some kind of opto-electronic switch that directs light through two equal 
length paths.  One path has the attenuator, and the signals from the strong ONT 
take that path and recombine with the unattenuated path afterwards.  I suppose 
it doesn’t exist and would cost a million dollars if it did.



We’ll see if the vendor can fix the sensitivity issue, and otherwise we’ll just 
not buy that unit.



-Adam





From: ch...@go-mtc.com<mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 1:01 PM
To: dmmoff...@gmail.com<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>; 'AnimalFarm Microwave 
Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] "Low pass" attenuator



The real hot ones are just a time slice I presume so you would have to take the 
attenuator in and out of the circuit synched on the ont transmit schedule.

Pads on hot ONTs seem to be the only solution to me.







From: dmmoff...@gmail.com<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 10:16 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com<mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>

Subject: RE: [AFMUG] "Low pass" attenuator



Exactly.

We were testing a different brand of XGS-PON transceiver.  It works fine, 
except clients stronger than about -14 don’t connect.  Our current brand alarms 
at -10, but functions as high as -7, so our design assumes -10 as a cutoff.

We can go around and pad the hot ONT’s, but it would be super convenient if we 
could magically add 5dB to only the real hot ones.



…. we could just not use the transceiver, but it’s a lot cheaper than what the 
OLT manufacturer is selling us so it would be nice to make it work.



-Adam





From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 11:01 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com<mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] “Low pass” attenuator



Curious, where would you have two signals of different amplitude in a fiber 
system?  PON return signals?





From: Adam Moffett

Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 5:07 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

Subject: [AFMUG] “Low pass” attenuator



Is there such a thing as a fiber attenuator that only attenuates a signal 
higher than some threshold?



I’m thinking to prevent overloading a receiver, but let weaker signals pass 
unimpeded.



Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] "Low pass" attenuator

[Adam Moffett]

We could add splitters or fixed attenuators at the ont end.  It could be done 
at the NID or the drop termination closure.

That’s just inconvenient due to all the site visits.  It’s easy to attenuate at 
the OLT also, but it would affect every customer on the port equally.  I’d want 
to attenuate selectively.  Oh geez I wonder if Nokia has a setting to just dial 
back the tx on the ONT.

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AF  on behalf of Bill Prince 

Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 6:58:49 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] "Low pass" attenuator


What if you just feed it into a splitter? a 32-way split will knock off a bunch 
of dBs.


bp


On 7/12/2023 2:11 PM, castarritt wrote:
So overload is -14db where the other one is -7, but is rx sensitivity also ~7db 
higher?  if it is, just pop a ~7db attenuator into it and all the weaker ONTs 
will still connect just fine.

On Wed, Jul 12, 2023 at 3:31 PM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

In my imagination I picture something with microsecond response time that only 
affects the signal from the stronger ONT.

If signal is stronger than -15 then reduce it by 5dB.



Maybe some kind of opto-electronic switch that directs light through two equal 
length paths.  One path has the attenuator, and the signals from the strong ONT 
take that path and recombine with the unattenuated path afterwards.  I suppose 
it doesn’t exist and would cost a million dollars if it did.



We’ll see if the vendor can fix the sensitivity issue, and otherwise we’ll just 
not buy that unit.



-Adam





From: ch...@go-mtc.com<mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 1:01 PM
To: dmmoff...@gmail.com<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>; 'AnimalFarm Microwave 
Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] "Low pass" attenuator



The real hot ones are just a time slice I presume so you would have to take the 
attenuator in and out of the circuit synched on the ont transmit schedule.

Pads on hot ONTs seem to be the only solution to me.







From: dmmoff...@gmail.com<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 10:16 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com<mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>

Subject: RE: [AFMUG] "Low pass" attenuator



Exactly.

We were testing a different brand of XGS-PON transceiver.  It works fine, 
except clients stronger than about -14 don’t connect.  Our current brand alarms 
at -10, but functions as high as -7, so our design assumes -10 as a cutoff.

We can go around and pad the hot ONT’s, but it would be super convenient if we 
could magically add 5dB to only the real hot ones.



…. we could just not use the transceiver, but it’s a lot cheaper than what the 
OLT manufacturer is selling us so it would be nice to make it work.



-Adam





From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 11:01 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com<mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] “Low pass” attenuator



Curious, where would you have two signals of different amplitude in a fiber 
system?  PON return signals?





From: Adam Moffett

Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 5:07 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

Subject: [AFMUG] “Low pass” attenuator



Is there such a thing as a fiber attenuator that only attenuates a signal 
higher than some threshold?



I’m thinking to prevent overloading a receiver, but let weaker signals pass 
unimpeded.



Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] “Low pass” attenuator

[Adam Moffett]

Is there such a thing as a fiber attenuator that only attenuates a signal 
higher than some threshold?

I’m thinking to prevent overloading a receiver, but let weaker signals pass 
unimpeded.

Get Outlook for iOS
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] This thing on?

[Adam Moffett]

I can’t tell if you’re joking.  But everything you just said is wrong.

It’s not literally dead dinosaurs.  Most of it is from plant matter.  The earth 
makes a lot of plant matter.  Oil seeping into a well from surrounding rock is 
not a mystery, and it doesn’t mean the well is “full” again, and it doesn’t 
mean it’s going to last forever.

And using hydro, wind, geothermal, nuclear, and solar isn’t going to destroy 
our economy.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Steve Jones 

Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:51:18 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] This thing on?

Except we dont know that it is running out. Capped once empty wells are found 
to be full of oil. The same people who were giving mercury to kids for cuts and 
scratches are the ones who decided oil wa derived from spoiled dinosaurs. 
That's a lot of dinosaurs. Less dinosaurs by volume than there are people dying 
now and, by their logic, also turning into oil.
For all we actually know oil is just the organic earths blood, replenisheshed 
by its liver just like ours.
Decimating economies to save us from fossil fluid depletion is on par with 
causing hepatitis outbreaks in the 2020s by switching to plastic bags in the 
80s to save the rain forests which turned out not to actually be the lungs of 
the earth.
Al gore invented the series of tubes we know as he internet to spread fear 
mongering.
Work toward oil independence because we want more efficient tooling, not 
because some suit with an ego needs it to happen.

On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 1:02 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:

So the real news article was about floating artic ice being gone, and they say 
80-85% of it is gone now.  So they missed on the exact timing, but most of it 
is gone.

The bit about the “end of humanity” was a clickbait headline someone attached 
to that.

The kid thought a clickbait headline was representing the real story, believed 
it and retweeted it.  She was wrong.  Her 15 minutes are up anyway, and now 
it’s “Greta who?” unless you’re someone who wants to pick on her.



One kid being wrong doesn’t mean the earth isn’t getting warmer or that it’s 
not a problem.



For any who don’t believe that the climate will create problems for our 
descendants, and that it’s nothing to do with us if it does, do you at least 
believe these points?
1) No matter how much fossil fuel there is it’s not infinite so it makes sense 
to conserve it.

2) To get the oil price we have, we sell to where it’s more expensive and buy 
from where it’s cheaper.  “Where it’s cheaper” is almost universally countries 
that don’t like us (or we don’t like), and reducing consumption means we can 
buy less from them without paying more.



I know people made a lot of hay about “energy independence” when domestic oil 
production exceeded domestic demand a few years ago, but I think they were 
overlooking that if we actually tried to be independent on oil the price would 
skyrocket on account of not having those cheaper imports in our supply and 
losing the revenue from the exports.  We’ve also long since exceeded that 
production level, but it’s not worth crowing about it in 2022-2023. The price 
remains high because Russia is mostly off the market, and as we increase 
production Saudi Arabia (and OPEC in general) reduces theirs to preserve the 
high price.  The low price sometimes cited occurred when demand plummeted 
during lock downs.  Then everybody (USA included) cut production because low 
prices are bad for the oil producers.



If you’re not on board with fossil fuel reduction for climate change reasons 
you should be on board because it’s simply better for our country if we stop 
relying on something that will eventually run out, which finances regimes that 
are belligerent to us, and finances business interests that meddle in both our 
foreign and domestic policy for their own benefit.



-Adam







From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2023 1:15 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] This thing on?



She did say :“A top climate scientist is warning that climate change will wipe 
out humanity unless we stop using fossil fuels over the next five years.”



That was 5 years ago.



So the warning seems to say that we had 5 years to stop using fossil fuels or 
humanity will be wiped out.

So time to get  your affairs in order...



From: Bill Prince

Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2023 10:28 AM

To: af@af.afmug.com

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] This thing on?



The rest of the story.

https://www.factcheck.org/2023/06/viral-posts-distort-greta-thunberg-tweet-warning-about-climate-change/

bp



On 6/21/2023 3:53 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Greta Thunberg day.  5 years ago today Greta Thunberg, climate activist, 
tweeted, "A top 

Re: [AFMUG] Fun way to start the day. Incredible PBX Voicemail Notification

[Adam Moffett]

Hard to imagine they had low pressure ever since that install and only 
investigated today.

I found recently that in State of NY the statute of limitations on property 
damage is 3 years.  Not that they *cant* sue you after that, but it’s an extra 
hurdle that’s difficult to cross.

I received a similar complaint recently you see. .


Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Chuck McCown via AF 

Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2023 11:57:19 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Fun way to start the day. Incredible PBX Voicemail Notification

Install was done 3 years ago.  HDD install.  And she says the pipe is 12"
below our duct  Sweetheart.
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Air vac

[Adam Moffett]

Splitting the pipe into two equal pipes will double the area for the air to
go through.  Based on the formula I found yesterday that should be the same
pressure but half the velocity.  I still think you'd want to maximize the
product of cfm times velocity, I'm just not sure what would achieve that.

It also looked like the pressure differential created by the venturi effect
was related to the delta of the squares of velocity in and before the
constriction. (Va^2 - Vb^2).  I don't see how 72psi would maximize that,
but I guess that's why I don't have a PhD.


On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 1:47 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> I dont know the math behind air pressure, but if I split the 150psi into
> two, then does each orifice get 75psi?
>
> On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 9:54 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> Spoke to a venturi engineer just now.  He says 72 psi is the magic
>> number.  It has something to do with atmospheric air pressure and the
>> density of the air.  I presume that number would change with altitude.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Monday, May 22, 2023 9:34 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Air vac
>>
>> I use an auger to dig them, vac to clear them. Same thing with the
>> airspade/airvac combo.  I dont do posts less than 48 inches. Whats really
>> pushing this is the last project was installing 2 inch duct for the power
>> company, the old primaries were failed concentric, as it turns out the
>> stuff is dangerous, it faults on its own, jabbing shovels and post hole
>> diggers at it is a recipe for disaster and water is its mortal enemy. Im
>> chasing more contracts with that power company to replace more of that
>> concentric. Im not gonna get the cutting power of water, but ill have dry
>> spoils to put back in the hole.
>>
>> I wish I hadnt done all the drugs, id be able to understand the maths on
>> this, im wondering if I cant split the input and double the lift with two
>> venturis
>>
>> On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 9:23 AM  wrote:
>>
>>> So you dug post holes with a shop vac?  Is it sandy where you are?  I
>>> feel like I hit about 10,000 rocks per post hole.  Many too big for a vac
>>> hose, and many just big enough to clog it.
>>>
>>> I might have to try it anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 21, 2023 6:12 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Air vac
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm having better luck with the prototype than a shop vac already, just
>>> trying to improve the lift. Toting a generator isnt really an option.
>>>
>>> I also just have a shop vac hose, if theres moisture the dirt collects
>>> on the sides with a shop vac and loses lift. That's how I've always dug
>>> post holes.
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 21, 2023, 3:53 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think you would have better luck with a strong shop vac and a 30
>>> gallon drum.  I have seen guys do that and it worked OK.  Air powered
>>> vacuum producers work but I don’t know how well.  Sometimes they are called
>>> eductors or ejectors.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Take a look at this one:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/2-in-line-vac-only-aluminum?infoParam.campaignId=T9F=CjwKCAjwgqejBhBAEiwAuWHioM68tuz0PVLcvHFy4CRspRtvhy5gEQQryMrUkOoNv4MVeUTRSWTkvxoCrv8QAvD_BwE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Chuck McCown
>>>
>>> McCown Technology Corporation
>>> 8401 N Commerce Dr
>>> Lake Point, Utah 84074
>>> 801-250-9503 Office
>>> 435-830-4306 Cell
>>> www.mccowntech.com
>>> www.microtrench.pro
>>> www.terabitnetworks.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Steve Jones
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 21, 2023 11:56 AM
>>>
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>>
>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Air vac
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I need advice from you nerds.
>>>
>>> I'm a broke joke, so hydrovac isnt in my budget. Besides, I want dry
>>> spoils to put back in the hole.
>>>
>>> This revision works for venturi. I have multiple size reducer but right
>>> now I'm just doing 3/4 to to inch. The 3/4 to 1 then 1 to half back to 1.5
>>> for the venturi side seemed to have the best lift, but the hardware store
>>> didnt have everything, so it's all in 2 inch right now
>>>
>>> I'll dump to a 2000lb peanut sack if I can find one, but for now I'll
>>> just use a 30 gallon drum and dump on the mega movers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is for use in conjunction with the airspade I did have some coin to
>>> get.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Venturi math gets complicated and I'm full retard so I need to find he
>>> best ways to increase negative pressure and where to drill the ports.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I also wonder if theres an option to recapture the exhaust into the
>>> airspade.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I need you nerds to go full geek.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If I can get valves correct I'll have the local machinist make me a
>>> couple that are pressure rated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is to mimic the airvac I also cant afford.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This proof of concept has the lift to clear potholes 

Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

[Adam Moffett]

Hah! I bet they don’t put a Mikrotik switch in their little sats, but I can’t 
prove they don’t.


Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AF  on behalf of Robert 
Sent: Thursday, May 4, 2023 6:58:30 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

Funny, this kinda sounds like what's happening with Starlink and their 
connections to zoom, but those seem to be fixed by going to a different set of 
dns servers ( that is what the jungle drums are drumming )

On 5/4/23 1:23 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:

So this actually was my issue.

I had disabled port isolation on 3 switches knowing I was going to move the 
uplink ports when I changed topology.



Normally if you have port isolation misconfigured then nothing works. 
Apparently on the CRS226-24G-2S+ if you have the ports assigned to isolation 
profiles and then disable those profiles then it sometimes drop some traffic to 
that port.  This didn’t become apparent until I did a capture onsite with a 
mirrored port.  I could ping the phone 100% of the time with zero drops, they’d 
get DHCP, and talk to the Internet, but some reply traffic doesn’t make it back 
to the device.  I assume it’s a bug.  You reboot the phones and they work again 
for awhile, but then after some period of time they’d just stop working with 
Zoom.  Two possible fixes are remove port isolation profiles from all ports, or 
configure it correctly and enable the profile.  What’s funny is there were 20+ 
apartments on the affected switches for 3 days and none of them reported any 
issue…..so I assume there was just some general low level packet loss and maybe 
Zoom was just extra tender about it?  That or the bug is specific to something 
about the Zoom traffic.  Whatever the case, I have a fix, and I’m moving on 
with life.  Not gonna test any more thoroughly on an EOL switch.



I’m glad Mikrotik discontinued the 226.  This ain’t the first weird thing I ran 
into on these.



I never did get an application layer log, so I don’t know why the “forbidden” 
message.  Maybe Zoom says your connection is shitty and I’d rather block you 
with a 403 you than let you have a bad MOS?  Or maybe Yealink says “forbidden” 
for any general connectivity issue?

Again it’s behind me now and I don’t care enough to test more.  I’m just 
shouting at the wind now.



-Adam



From: Adam Moffett <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2023 8:27 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"



Thank you sir



Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>



From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on behalf of 
Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2023 4:34:51 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"



Its a bold assumption that its the bad people i want to eliminate (-:



Im not saying either way



but if there were no "good" people, then "bad" people could only stand to get 
better. growth like that brings joy

If all the "bad" people were gone, then good people would only stand to get 
worse. Decline brings sadness.



Call me the harbinger of joy



On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 11:47 AM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Apparently Zoom tier1 isn’t helping.  “Check your firewall settings” and other 
basic stuff.  I don’t know if they’re just script readers or if this IT guy 
doesn’t know what to ask.



I don’t want to be the guy who just points fingers at the other guy, so I’m 
trying.  I just wish I could capture the SIP messages….friggin TLS so super 
secure that I can’t friggin help you.  If only the world had no bad people, 
then we wouldn’t need security.

I want to hear Steve Jones’s plan for eliminating all the bad people.  I bet he 
has one.







From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Darin Steffl
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2023 10:49 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"



This is really simple. If they can ping the internet or do anything else that 
requires internet at the same time the phones show offline, it's not your 
problem. They should be contacting their phone provider.



Their voip provider can provide them host names to ping or trace to in order to 
troubleshoot. If you don't sell the voip, you shouldn't be troubleshooting it 
aside from making sure your network ping, jitter, and packetloss are normal.



On Wed, May 3, 2023, 8:13 AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:

I’m trying to help a customer with their Yealink phones.  Their provider is 
Zoom.

I’m 99% sure this is not my problem, but I’m chronically too nice to people so 
I’m helping anyway.



So apparently

Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

[Adam Moffett]

Thank you sir

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Steve Jones 

Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2023 4:34:51 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

Its a bold assumption that its the bad people i want to eliminate (-:

Im not saying either way

but if there were no "good" people, then "bad" people could only stand to get 
better. growth like that brings joy
If all the "bad" people were gone, then good people would only stand to get 
worse. Decline brings sadness.

Call me the harbinger of joy

On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 11:47 AM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Apparently Zoom tier1 isn’t helping.  “Check your firewall settings” and other 
basic stuff.  I don’t know if they’re just script readers or if this IT guy 
doesn’t know what to ask.



I don’t want to be the guy who just points fingers at the other guy, so I’m 
trying.  I just wish I could capture the SIP messages….friggin TLS so super 
secure that I can’t friggin help you.  If only the world had no bad people, 
then we wouldn’t need security.

I want to hear Steve Jones’s plan for eliminating all the bad people.  I bet he 
has one.







From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Darin Steffl
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2023 10:49 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"



This is really simple. If they can ping the internet or do anything else that 
requires internet at the same time the phones show offline, it's not your 
problem. They should be contacting their phone provider.



Their voip provider can provide them host names to ping or trace to in order to 
troubleshoot. If you don't sell the voip, you shouldn't be troubleshooting it 
aside from making sure your network ping, jitter, and packetloss are normal.



On Wed, May 3, 2023, 8:13 AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:

I’m trying to help a customer with their Yealink phones.  Their provider is 
Zoom.

I’m 99% sure this is not my problem, but I’m chronically too nice to people so 
I’m helping anyway.



So apparently when they go to dial out they’ll get a message on the screen 
saying “Forbidden”.  I’m not sure if there’s more to the message because I only 
know what they’re telling me.   When this starts happening their IT guy says 
the phones show up as “offline” in whatever management portal they’re using.  
They factory reset the phone, it reprovisions, shows up as “online” in their 
portal and works again for some period of minutes or hours and then does the 
same thing again.  I asked if a simple reboot works, but the IT guy says they 
factory reset instead of reboot because it’s so easy to do .



They point at me because the phone is “offline”, and they’re tying it to 
network maintenance that was done on Monday morning, but their story is not 
totally consistent about what day it started.  May have been Monday, may have 
been last week, depends who you ask.  I’ve taken packet captures and I can see 
the supposedly “offline” phone talking on port 443 to an AWS server (I assume 
provisioning server) and talking to Zoom on port 5091.  That’s all TLS/SSL so I 
can’t see the messages, but they’re definitely still talking to the mothership 
when they’re reported as “offline”.  They also do other normal stuff like DNS 
queries, NTP sync, and normal LAN chatter like CDP, ARP, etc.  I also checked 
for packet loss to the phones and there’s none/negligible loss.  So I’m telling 
these guys your phones are 100% definitely not offline.  I told them they need 
to check with Zoom to see what application layer messages are happening, 
because due to the encryption I don’t have a clue, but I’d wager the carrier is 
sending back a 403 Forbidden for some reason.



Below is a screenshot of his management tool (customer name blocked out).  I 
don’t recognize it, maybe one of you all does.

In the meantime I’m wondering if the collective has seen something like this 
with Yealink and/or Zoom.  Any wild-ass guesses?



[X]

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

[Adam Moffett]

Nobody expects the Amish inquisition?

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 12:07 PM Robert  wrote:

> Somewhere recently I got sent a picture of a ancient hand crushing vice
> that was used by the church to correct blasphemers.  Sounds like you need
> to add that to your kit...
>
> On 4/21/23 8:37 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> obviously you dont want your kids playing near the punji traps or
> claymores. but digging the holes and sharpening the sticks for the traps is
> a good family project. And if you catch one of the petas or neonazis in the
> holes, its an excellent opportunity to teach problem solving skills, like
> where to separate the joints so that the captures are more easily
> transported to the pig pen. Its about working smarter, not harder. Then
> there is melting the fillings down into ingots and the grinding of the
> teeth to powder for the gardens. So many opportunities on a compound for
> family bonding.
>
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> I mean maybe?  I used ludicrous examples because I'm not trying to pick
>> on anyone particular.  I don't care which side of the cup you drink the
>> kool-aid from, I just don't want a bunch of lunatics hanging around where
>> my kids might be playing.
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 9:17 AM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> a proper compound doesnt need to concern itself with the quality of the
>>> neighbors. All you need to worry about is proper placement of punji traps
>>> and claymores. Its the alphabets you need to worry about, they have
>>> helicopters
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 5:48 AM Adam Moffett 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So would you guys actually buy that compound? I'm trying to wrap my
>>>> head around who would buy it and what for.
>>>>
>>>> I was looking at an empty lot to be my little outdoor playground, and
>>>> it has one of these Amish places adjacent to it.  In the back of my head
>>>> I'm picturing some kind of weirdo cultists moving in.  Like nudist PETA
>>>> eco-terrorists or  neo-confederate klansmen.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 8:09 PM Adam Moffett 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The Amish are making a mass exodus from NY.  You can drive through
>>>>> Amish communities and see "for sale" signs one after the other.  The Amish
>>>>> are generally known for good workmanship, to the point where some people 
>>>>> go
>>>>> out of their way to get Amish building contractors.  They also have
>>>>> multigenerational households, so you get these large properties with huge
>>>>> well-built houses, barns, and outbuildings.  The problem is they have no
>>>>> utilities at all.  They'll have hand pumped wells and outhouses and wood
>>>>> stoves.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/234-Hunts-Corners-Center-Lisle-Rd-Marathon-NY-13803/223346029_zpid/
>>>>> ?
>>>>>
>>>>> I linked the above example because it was easy to find, but that
>>>>> particular one has electric out by the road.  I saw a similar one for sale
>>>>> where there was no electric service available and it was listed for $140k.
>>>>> That's a friggin 'steal except for one thing:  What could you do with a
>>>>> huge house with no electricity?  A scout camp?  Start a cult?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>> AF mailing list
>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

[Adam Moffett]

Lol! Sometimes you’re fun to have around.

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AF  on behalf of Steve Jones 

Sent: Friday, April 21, 2023 11:37:02 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

obviously you dont want your kids playing near the punji traps or claymores. 
but digging the holes and sharpening the sticks for the traps is a good family 
project. And if you catch one of the petas or neonazis in the holes, its an 
excellent opportunity to teach problem solving skills, like where to separate 
the joints so that the captures are more easily transported to the pig pen. Its 
about working smarter, not harder. Then there is melting the fillings down into 
ingots and the grinding of the teeth to powder for the gardens. So many 
opportunities on a compound for family bonding.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I mean maybe?  I used ludicrous examples because I'm not trying to pick on 
anyone particular.  I don't care which side of the cup you drink the kool-aid 
from, I just don't want a bunch of lunatics hanging around where my kids might 
be playing.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 9:17 AM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
a proper compound doesnt need to concern itself with the quality of the 
neighbors. All you need to worry about is proper placement of punji traps and 
claymores. Its the alphabets you need to worry about, they have helicopters


On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 5:48 AM Adam Moffett 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
So would you guys actually buy that compound? I'm trying to wrap my head around 
who would buy it and what for.

I was looking at an empty lot to be my little outdoor playground, and it has 
one of these Amish places adjacent to it.  In the back of my head I'm picturing 
some kind of weirdo cultists moving in.  Like nudist PETA eco-terrorists or  
neo-confederate klansmen.

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 8:09 PM Adam Moffett 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
The Amish are making a mass exodus from NY.  You can drive through Amish 
communities and see "for sale" signs one after the other.  The Amish are 
generally known for good workmanship, to the point where some people go out of 
their way to get Amish building contractors.  They also have multigenerational 
households, so you get these large properties with huge well-built houses, 
barns, and outbuildings.  The problem is they have no utilities at all.  
They'll have hand pumped wells and outhouses and wood stoves.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/234-Hunts-Corners-Center-Lisle-Rd-Marathon-NY-13803/223346029_zpid/?

I linked the above example because it was easy to find, but that particular one 
has electric out by the road.  I saw a similar one for sale where there was no 
electric service available and it was listed for $140k.  That's a friggin 
'steal except for one thing:  What could you do with a huge house with no 
electricity?  A scout camp?  Start a cult?




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

[Adam Moffett]

I mean maybe?  I used ludicrous examples because I'm not trying to pick on
anyone particular.  I don't care which side of the cup you drink the
kool-aid from, I just don't want a bunch of lunatics hanging around where
my kids might be playing.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 9:17 AM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> a proper compound doesnt need to concern itself with the quality of the
> neighbors. All you need to worry about is proper placement of punji traps
> and claymores. Its the alphabets you need to worry about, they have
> helicopters
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 5:48 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> So would you guys actually buy that compound? I'm trying to wrap my head
>> around who would buy it and what for.
>>
>> I was looking at an empty lot to be my little outdoor playground, and it
>> has one of these Amish places adjacent to it.  In the back of my head I'm
>> picturing some kind of weirdo cultists moving in.  Like nudist PETA
>> eco-terrorists or  neo-confederate klansmen.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 8:09 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>>
>>> The Amish are making a mass exodus from NY.  You can drive through Amish
>>> communities and see "for sale" signs one after the other.  The Amish are
>>> generally known for good workmanship, to the point where some people go out
>>> of their way to get Amish building contractors.  They also have
>>> multigenerational households, so you get these large properties with huge
>>> well-built houses, barns, and outbuildings.  The problem is they have no
>>> utilities at all.  They'll have hand pumped wells and outhouses and wood
>>> stoves.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/234-Hunts-Corners-Center-Lisle-Rd-Marathon-NY-13803/223346029_zpid/
>>> ?
>>>
>>> I linked the above example because it was easy to find, but that
>>> particular one has electric out by the road.  I saw a similar one for sale
>>> where there was no electric service available and it was listed for $140k.
>>> That's a friggin 'steal except for one thing:  What could you do with a
>>> huge house with no electricity?  A scout camp?  Start a cult?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

[Adam Moffett]

True enough, but we do have a colorful tapestry of whackadoos.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 8:33 AM Brian Webster 
wrote:

> We don’t get much nudist anything here in upstate NY Adam, you know that.
> The weather takes care of that most of the time….lol
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Friday, April 21, 2023 6:47 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands
>
>
>
> So would you guys actually buy that compound? I'm trying to wrap my head
> around who would buy it and what for.
>
> I was looking at an empty lot to be my little outdoor playground, and it
> has one of these Amish places adjacent to it.  In the back of my head I'm
> picturing some kind of weirdo cultists moving in.  Like nudist PETA
> eco-terrorists or  neo-confederate klansmen.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 8:09 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> The Amish are making a mass exodus from NY.  You can drive through Amish
> communities and see "for sale" signs one after the other.  The Amish are
> generally known for good workmanship, to the point where some people go out
> of their way to get Amish building contractors.  They also have
> multigenerational households, so you get these large properties with huge
> well-built houses, barns, and outbuildings.  The problem is they have no
> utilities at all.  They'll have hand pumped wells and outhouses and wood
> stoves.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/234-Hunts-Corners-Center-Lisle-Rd-Marathon-NY-13803/223346029_zpid/
> ?
>
>
>
> I linked the above example because it was easy to find, but that
> particular one has electric out by the road.  I saw a similar one for sale
> where there was no electric service available and it was listed for $140k.
> That's a friggin 'steal except for one thing:  What could you do with a
> huge house with no electricity?  A scout camp?  Start a cult?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

[Adam Moffett]

So would you guys actually buy that compound? I'm trying to wrap my head
around who would buy it and what for.

I was looking at an empty lot to be my little outdoor playground, and it
has one of these Amish places adjacent to it.  In the back of my head I'm
picturing some kind of weirdo cultists moving in.  Like nudist PETA
eco-terrorists or  neo-confederate klansmen.

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 8:09 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> The Amish are making a mass exodus from NY.  You can drive through Amish
> communities and see "for sale" signs one after the other.  The Amish are
> generally known for good workmanship, to the point where some people go out
> of their way to get Amish building contractors.  They also have
> multigenerational households, so you get these large properties with huge
> well-built houses, barns, and outbuildings.  The problem is they have no
> utilities at all.  They'll have hand pumped wells and outhouses and wood
> stoves.
>
>
> https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/234-Hunts-Corners-Center-Lisle-Rd-Marathon-NY-13803/223346029_zpid/
> ?
>
> I linked the above example because it was easy to find, but that
> particular one has electric out by the road.  I saw a similar one for sale
> where there was no electric service available and it was listed for $140k.
> That's a friggin 'steal except for one thing:  What could you do with a
> huge house with no electricity?  A scout camp?  Start a cult?
>
>
>
>
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

[Adam Moffett]

It’s also the size.  If I was building off grid I wouldn’t do it with a 4000 sq 
ft house.  I guess I could wire up the two rooms I’d actually use and leave the 
rest.

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AF  on behalf of Bill Prince 

Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 10:00:20 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

The community just south of us is 100% off-grid. All of them are solar, and 
last I looked a couple also had wind generators.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 6:48 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
I once did a complete telco C.O. with HVAC 100% solar.



From: Jaime Solorza
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 7:25 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

Friend of mine has set up three homes with solar panels and batteries out in 
the desert near us...100% off the grid...

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 7:14 PM Robert  wrote:
Off grid homes are easy now with LFP batteries, it would just be the
hassle of wiring it, specially as they probably don't use sheet rock
interior walls.   So you are probably doing conduit all around the
outside walls.   But they probably all have basements that you could
also wire through.

On 4/20/23 5:09 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
> The Amish are making a mass exodus from NY.  You can drive through
> Amish communities and see "for sale" signs one after the other.  The
> Amish are generally known for good workmanship, to the point where
> some people go out of their way to get Amish building contractors.
> They also have multigenerational households, so you get these large
> properties with huge well-built houses, barns, and outbuildings.  The
> problem is they have no utilities at all.  They'll have hand pumped
> wells and outhouses and wood stoves.
>
> https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/234-Hunts-Corners-Center-Lisle-Rd-Marathon-NY-13803/223346029_zpid/?
>
> I linked the above example because it was easy to find, but that
> particular one has electric out by the road.  I saw a similar one for
> sale where there was no electric service available and it was listed
> for $140k.  That's a friggin 'steal except for one thing:  What could
> you do with a huge house with no electricity?  A scout camp?  Start a
> cult?
>
>
>
>
>


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

[Adam Moffett]

Their rules are different in different communities.  Some of them allow 
electric in a workplace but not in the home.

The cheapest locations for sale have no electricity available at all.

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AF  on behalf of Steve Jones 

Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 11:48:20 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

its not overly complicated to wire an unwired home, especially an amish built 
home which will follow specific design standards. Also, a lot of amish homes do 
have wire present, just not connected. Amish are frugal and hen amenities, but 
they are also business savvy and know about potential resale value. the 
referenced home has corded machines in the woodshop, so id guess when the 
heathens arent looking, the breaker behind the wood panel gets turned on

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 9:01 PM Bill Prince 
mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
The community just south of us is 100% off-grid. All of them are solar, and 
last I looked a couple also had wind generators.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 6:48 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
I once did a complete telco C.O. with HVAC 100% solar.



From: Jaime Solorza
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 7:25 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

Friend of mine has set up three homes with solar panels and batteries out in 
the desert near us...100% off the grid...

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 7:14 PM Robert  wrote:
Off grid homes are easy now with LFP batteries, it would just be the
hassle of wiring it, specially as they probably don't use sheet rock
interior walls.   So you are probably doing conduit all around the
outside walls.   But they probably all have basements that you could
also wire through.

On 4/20/23 5:09 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
> The Amish are making a mass exodus from NY.  You can drive through
> Amish communities and see "for sale" signs one after the other.  The
> Amish are generally known for good workmanship, to the point where
> some people go out of their way to get Amish building contractors.
> They also have multigenerational households, so you get these large
> properties with huge well-built houses, barns, and outbuildings.  The
> problem is they have no utilities at all.  They'll have hand pumped
> wells and outhouses and wood stoves.
>
> https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/234-Hunts-Corners-Center-Lisle-Rd-Marathon-NY-13803/223346029_zpid/?
>
> I linked the above example because it was easy to find, but that
> particular one has electric out by the road.  I saw a similar one for
> sale where there was no electric service available and it was listed
> for $140k.  That's a friggin 'steal except for one thing:  What could
> you do with a huge house with no electricity?  A scout camp?  Start a
> cult?
>
>
>
>
>


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

[Adam Moffett]

The Amish are making a mass exodus from NY.  You can drive through Amish
communities and see "for sale" signs one after the other.  The Amish are
generally known for good workmanship, to the point where some people go out
of their way to get Amish building contractors.  They also have
multigenerational households, so you get these large properties with huge
well-built houses, barns, and outbuildings.  The problem is they have no
utilities at all.  They'll have hand pumped wells and outhouses and wood
stoves.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/234-Hunts-Corners-Center-Lisle-Rd-Marathon-NY-13803/223346029_zpid/
?

I linked the above example because it was easy to find, but that particular
one has electric out by the road.  I saw a similar one for sale where there
was no electric service available and it was listed for $140k.  That's a
friggin 'steal except for one thing:  What could you do with a huge house
with no electricity?  A scout camp?  Start a cult?
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Ticketing systems

[Adam Moffett]

At a glance it looks like Request Tracker is free if self hosted and you pay 
for cloud hosting with support.  Is that the case?

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of CBB - Jay Fuller 

Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 3:29:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ticketing systems


Seems like at one point everything was rt / request tracker.  That not around 
anymore ?

- Reply message -
From: "Chuck McCown via AF" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Cc: 
Subject: [AFMUG] Ticketing systems
Date: Sun, Apr 9, 2023 10:22 AM

What are these tickets of which you speak

Ohhh yes, I have dim memories of “the time before fiber” when things would stop 
working correctly leading to unhappy customers.

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Ticketing systems

[Adam Moffett]

Tickets aren’t just for broken things you know.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Chuck McCown via AF 

Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2023 11:22:20 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ticketing systems

What are these tickets of which you speak

Ohhh yes, I have dim memories of “the time before fiber” when things would stop 
working correctly leading to unhappy customers.

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] Ticketing systems

[Adam Moffett]

What are current opinions on best ticketing systems?

Seems like everything is expensive or terrible or both.


Get Outlook for iOS
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later

[Adam Moffett]

Unfortunately you’re the exception not the rule :)

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Jaime Solorza 

Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2023 8:08:09 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later

We label every wire..

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 5:31 PM Mark Radabaugh 
mailto:m...@amplex.net>> wrote:
That would really ruin the electricians mojo if they couldn’t take all the duct 
covers off and throw them in the bottom of the panel.No self respecting 
electrician ever puts those damn covers on.   How would they know where all the 
wires go if they did?

Mark

On Mar 29, 2023, at 2:46 PM, Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:

I think the question was why not use hinge type cable troughs

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 12:58 PM Jaime Solorza 
mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Lots of places with real and much better tacos...I live in El Paso, not San 
Antonio!!!

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 11:05 AM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Why not?



From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Jaime Solorza
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 1:03 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later



Nope...no hinges ever



On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:52 AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:

It is a work of art.

Do you ever use finger duct with a hinged cover?  I find that a lot more 
convenient, but wondering if there’s a reason not to use that on a panel like 
this.





From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Jaime Solorza
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 8:51 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later



This is the panel for the large enclosure I posted last week...

Dual power supplies for redundancy...

More shares to come.

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later

[Adam Moffett]

Surprisingly it’s the cheapies from fs.com
https://www.fs.com/products/29038.html
https://www.fs.com/products/63033.html

I sometimes unbolt the horizontal ones from their rack mount plate and bolt 
them onto walls or panels.  Hard to beat at that price

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AF  on behalf of Chuck McCown via AF 

Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 5:59:15 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later

I have not seen those.  I have trouble getting the non hinged ones off at times.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 1:52 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later

The hinged ones I have open both ways and you can still snap the cover off 
completely if it’s in the way.  It’s pretty darn convenient.

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AF  on behalf of Jaime Solorza 

Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 3:48:35 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later

Carl...
the non hinged allows us easy access for cable management and landing  to 
either side and not hampered by hinge...running some cables can get difficult 
in busy panel...also the cutting is much cleaner ...
and Josh,,,i will try the Blast just for you...
Jaime Solorza
Wireless Systems Architect
915-861-1390


On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 12:53 PM Carl Peterson  
wrote:
I think the question was why not use hinge type cable troughs

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 12:58 PM Jaime Solorza  
wrote:
Lots of places with real and much better tacos...I live in El Paso, not San 
Antonio!!!

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 11:05 AM  wrote:

Why not?



From: AF  On Behalf Of Jaime Solorza
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 1:03 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later



Nope...no hinges ever



On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:52 AM  wrote:

It is a work of art.

Do you ever use finger duct with a hinged cover?  I find that a lot more 
convenient, but wondering if there’s a reason not to use that on a panel like 
this.





From: AF  On Behalf Of Jaime Solorza
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 8:51 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later



This is the panel for the large enclosure I posted last week...

Dual power supplies for redundancy...

More shares to come.

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later

[Adam Moffett]

The hinged ones I have open both ways and you can still snap the cover off 
completely if it’s in the way.  It’s pretty darn convenient.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Jaime Solorza 

Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 3:48:35 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later

Carl...
the non hinged allows us easy access for cable management and landing  to 
either side and not hampered by hinge...running some cables can get difficult 
in busy panel...also the cutting is much cleaner ...
and Josh,,,i will try the Blast just for you...
Jaime Solorza
Wireless Systems Architect
915-861-1390


On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 12:53 PM Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:
I think the question was why not use hinge type cable troughs

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 12:58 PM Jaime Solorza 
mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Lots of places with real and much better tacos...I live in El Paso, not San 
Antonio!!!

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 11:05 AM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Why not?



From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Jaime Solorza
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 1:03 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later



Nope...no hinges ever



On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:52 AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:

It is a work of art.

Do you ever use finger duct with a hinged cover?  I find that a lot more 
convenient, but wondering if there’s a reason not to use that on a panel like 
this.





From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Jaime Solorza
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 8:51 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: [AFMUG] Blank panel and and an hour later



This is the panel for the large enclosure I posted last week...

Dual power supplies for redundancy...

More shares to come.

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

[Adam Moffett]

Why are we going down this road again?

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Chuck McCown via AF 

Sent: Friday, March 24, 2023 6:14:09 PM
To: Darin Steffl ; AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

Karl Marx
Lenin
Stalin
Putin

Pretty sure those dudes were far worst than Trump
Even Castro
Kim Jong Un

Seriously you thing the far left are better?

From: Darin Steffl
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2023 3:54 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Cc: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

The extreme left is still better than the extreme right.

I don't agree with either sides' extremes but if I had to pick one side, 
everyone being taken care of, like socialism, I'd pick that over the extreme 
right who wants to murder anyone different than them. Like far right pastors 
and supporters who call for violence and murder of gay people, people of color, 
and liberals. I can find thousands of posts and video from Republicans calling 
for sick things but very few liberals saying the same things.

I don't see far left people calling for violence and murder of people they 
disagree with.

So while there are two sides, one side is better than the other, as in less 
violent and extreme.

I'd take free college for all, free Healthcare, and more from the extreme left 
over the extreme right who wants to ban books, kill people they disagree with, 
try to overturn elections, cheat, lie, steal, etc. Again, the left is the 
better choice when it comes to empathy and taking care of people.

While an average republican might not agree with the far right, their silence 
is the same as being complicit in their sick beliefs.

At least an average Democrat calls out the far left people like I do. I don't 
agree in wiping out all student loans, for example. And I've contacted 
democrats I've voted for to voice my opinions.

I don't see Republicans calling out far right politicians who are spewing hate 
everyday. I wish they would but since they aren't, I assume they agree with the 
hate speech and calls for violence.

The right is far sicker than the left in every regard. Donald being elected 
over Hillary will go down in history as one of the worst political events in 
our country. We would be a much nicer and stable country if Hillary won. The 
racists, bigots, and violent people would mostly be hiding still but Donald 
gave them permission to act out their hate when he was elected. It's very sad.

People who still support Donald are bullies and hate America at this point.

On Fri, Mar 24, 2023, 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
Ouchie!
You called me the C word...


From: Robert
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2023 3:32 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

exactly this...  What I have learned is there is such a thing as a good cult, 
which is what I consider the Mormon church to be.  They have a few extreme 
points of view but on the whole they treat everyone ( now including other races 
) reasonably...   And they care about kids and back it up.

On 3/24/23 2:12 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I loved what the Gov of Utah told a bunch of school kids yesterday.

“Republicans are wrong about Democrats and Democrats are wrong about 
Republicans. Why? Here’s why — because, what we’re doing now is we’re only 
listening to the most extreme voices in those parties. So Republicans are only 
listening to the craziest Democrats and assuming that all Democrats are like 
that. Democrats are only listening to the craziest Republicans and assuming all 
Republicans are like that. When the difference between the average Democrat and 
the average Republican, really isn’t that big.”

From: Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2023 12:37 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

There's no meaningful difference between authoritarian left and authoritarian 
right, which are what catch the most attention.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]

Re: [AFMUG] mail servers

[Adam Moffett]

We used Icewarp since 2004 without issues.  At its peak we had thousandth of 
accounts on it, but now just a handful.

Not free.  And they went to per user licensing so it’s not cost effective for 
hosting anymore, but it’s reasonable for internal email.


Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Chuck McCown via AF 

Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 6:05:45 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: [AFMUG] mail servers

We are having trouble with mailcow.  Anything better out there.  It hangs all 
the time these days.

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] RF Cage for WIFI

[Adam Moffett]

A microwave probably fits through the seam in your lead lined case.  A was 
talking once with an IBM guy who worked in some kind of RF shielded room.  He 
said if he wanted his cell phone to work inside the room he just had to put a 
dollar bill in the door.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Nate Burke 
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 8:08:55 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: [AFMUG] RF Cage for WIFI

I've got a Comcast residential Modem that I can't get the RF turned off
in.  I haven't been able to find the right phrase at support to get them
to do it.  So far All that's happened is they've removed the SSID's, but
the RF is still broadcasting.  There are some 'RF cages' on Amazon to
'limit your exposure to WIFI'  But they're marketed as making your house
'healthier'  and reviews say they just slightly weaken the signal.

Is there a way to properly ground out a cage around the modem to block
all the WIFI?  Many moons ago, back in the days of 802.11b, I put an AP
into a lead lined pelican case, and was still able to connect to the
WIFI from outside of it.  I'm guessing I didn't do something right back
then.

FWIW though, I am getting 2.4gb/s x 230mb/s through the coax
connection.  There's only a 2.5G interface on the modem.

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange

[Adam Moffett]

Why?

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Ryan Ray 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 4:54:18 PM
To: Chuck McCown 
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange

I think ages make a huge difference in a lot of this. If you're talking about a 
17 year old, you're still living at home, saving all your money, trying to get 
out. Sure, $17 an hour would be amazing.

If you're 22, you should be able to afford a 1br apartment on your own, you 
shouldn't need roommates, you should expect that you can save 1k a month for 
the future, maybe purchase a home by 28? You're going to need to make more than 
$17 an hour.



On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 1:10 PM Chuck McCown 
mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>> wrote:
Not sure I am getting your point.  Young people frequently struggle when 
starting out.  The struggle is valuable.  You get ahead by getting educated, 
getting trained, learning skills people will pay you for.  You do not deserve 
anything but free air to breath and perhaps water if you live in an area where 
it rains.  You eat what you kill.

In your example below you are not taking into account, those with half a brain 
will have roomates with which to split all the rent and utilities.  That one 
move makes it go to having plenty of spending money.

So what is it you want me to learn here?  In 1979 milk was $1/gallon.  It is 
now $4.33.  Same price adjusted for inflation ...

I do not buy that the kids now-a-days have it any worse than I did.

Cost of a big mac in 1979 was 95 cents.  Today, $4.50, same price adjusted for 
inflation...

What do I need to learn here???


From: Ryan Ray
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 1:58 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Cc: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange

Chuck,

I'm going to assume you're not trying to cherry pick statistics and want to 
learn and listen.

Housing is only one part of the equation. Food, services, fuel, goods are at 
all time highs. Rental markets are becoming unfeasible unless living with 
roommates. I'm not sure where or how this mobile home fits in with the work in 
your area. Is there work in the area for your daughter to earn $18 an hour?

Talent.com says that at $18 an hour, working for 40 hours a week, gets you 
$2500 monthly net.
Going off these assumptions Cost of Living in Utah (2023) | 
SoFi

Rent: $1100
Food (No Restaurants): $253
Utilities: $300
Gas?: $400
I think you yanks have things like health insurance. $100/mo?

I haven't thought of everything, but you're already up to $2200/mo. You don't 
get ahead because you're behind before you even start.

Now take into account that the average home price in Utah is $500k and you 
cherry picked some bottom of the barrel trailer. I can't tell if you're being 
serious or not.



On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 11:55 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
One of my millennial daughters, grown, married, trying to adult, lives with her 
brother and his wife told me that I just don’t understand how hard it is today 
compared to when I was younger.  So I did a little comparison for her:


My first paid job in 1976 was $2/hour.  That would be about $10.70/hour today.

(I was an unpaid apprentice to a machinist in 1974, and slave labor on the farm 
from 1960 until I escaped).

My first skilled, formally trained, semi professional, utility lineman job in 
1979 paid $4.50/hour.
That would be about $18 today.

My first home, single wide 10 x 50 mobile home cost $12,000 in 1982.  Or about 
$36K today.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/744-S-1750-W-Vernal-UT-84078/2070550612_zpid/

So how is it people have it so much worse today?



From: Jeff Broadwick - Lists
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 11:39 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange

Too many parents want to be friends with their kids and not actually parent.  
Good news is, if you do a good job of parenting, you’ll likely have the 
opportunity out to become friends with your kids after they move out.

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

On Feb 14, 2023, at 1:25 PM, Sterling Jacobson  wrote:



Yeah, that’s a problem for sure.



All the youth (and some adults) see online is prosperity and wealth and 
entitlement.



Your definition of existing just doesn’t even come to their minds. To use a 
phrase, they literally don’t comprehend it.



I was living happily in a one room apartment for $400 a month and eating the 
same PB and soup for lunch/dinner on almost no monthly spend.

I had an old futon bed that I had purchased in college as furniture. My monthly 
output was focused on paying rent and a bit for food and my car.



I was hungry for more, made my way by learning, taking what I could find and 
working my way up.



And during none of that did I think to myself, “This is shit, I am entitled to 
more because I exist.” Lol



My grown kids ask for 

Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange

[Adam Moffett]

Mr Ryan, the rental market has been unfeasible at minimum wage without
roommates for my entire life.  I lived with anywhere from 1-5 other people
until I was 30.
Even it was feasible without roommates, you'll save so much money by having
them that it would be almost crazy not to.

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 4:11 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

> Chuck,
>
> I'm going to assume you're not trying to cherry pick statistics and want
> to learn and listen.
>
> Housing is only one part of the equation. Food, services, fuel, goods are
> at all time highs. Rental markets are becoming unfeasible unless living
> with roommates. I'm not sure where or how this mobile home fits in with the
> work in your area. Is there work in the area for your daughter to earn $18
> an hour?
>
> Talent.com says that at $18 an hour, working for 40 hours a week, gets you
> $2500 monthly net.
> Going off these assumptions Cost of Living in Utah (2023) | SoFi
> 
>
> Rent: $1100
> Food (No Restaurants): $253
> Utilities: $300
> Gas?: $400
> I think you yanks have things like health insurance. $100/mo?
>
> I haven't thought of everything, but you're already up to $2200/mo. You
> don't get ahead because you're behind before you even start.
>
> Now take into account that the average home price in Utah is $500k and you
> cherry picked some bottom of the barrel trailer. I can't tell if you're
> being serious or not.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 11:55 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> One of my millennial daughters, grown, married, trying to adult, lives
>> with her brother and his wife told me that I just don’t understand how hard
>> it is today compared to when I was younger.  So I did a little comparison
>> for her:
>>
>>
>> My first paid job in 1976 was $2/hour.  That would be about $10.70/hour
>> today.
>>
>> (I was an unpaid apprentice to a machinist in 1974, and slave labor on
>> the farm from 1960 until I escaped).
>>
>> My first skilled, formally trained, semi professional, utility lineman
>> job in 1979 paid $4.50/hour.
>> That would be about $18 today.
>>
>> My first home, single wide 10 x 50 mobile home cost $12,000 in 1982.  Or
>> about $36K today.
>>
>> https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/744-S-1750-W-Vernal-UT-84078/2070550612_zpid/
>>
>> So how is it people have it so much worse today?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jeff Broadwick - Lists
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 11:39 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
>>
>> Too many parents want to be friends with their kids and not actually
>> parent.  Good news is, if you do a good job of parenting, you’ll likely
>> have the opportunity out to become friends with your kids after they move
>> out.
>>
>> Jeff Broadwick
>> CTIconnect
>> 312-205-2519 Office
>> 574-220-7826 Cell
>> jbroadw...@cticonnect.com
>>
>> On Feb 14, 2023, at 1:25 PM, Sterling Jacobson 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Yeah, that’s a problem for sure.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the youth (and some adults) see online is prosperity and wealth and
>> entitlement.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your definition of existing just doesn’t even come to their minds. To use
>> a phrase, they literally don’t comprehend it.
>>
>>
>>
>> I was living happily in a one room apartment for $400 a month and eating
>> the same PB and soup for lunch/dinner on almost no monthly spend.
>>
>> I had an old futon bed that I had purchased in college as furniture. My
>> monthly output was focused on paying rent and a bit for food and my car.
>>
>>
>>
>> I was hungry for more, made my way by learning, taking what I could find
>> and working my way up.
>>
>>
>>
>> And during none of that did I think to myself, “This is shit, I am
>> entitled to more because I exist.” Lol
>>
>>
>>
>> My grown kids ask for very little and even then get told no all the time,
>> or have conditions.
>>
>> I worry about my younger kids that have spent a lot more time online.
>> They still know they get nothing as a default, but they are more entitled
>> in language and practice than my older kids.
>>
>> Society online in general isn’t doing anyone any favors.
>>
>>
>>
>> I mean some of the youtube crap they watch is just inane, and some of
>> these people just throw around money like it magically appeared to them out
>> of thin air without a care.
>>
>> There is no accountability or explanation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 10:37 AM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown 
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] FB Exchange
>>
>>
>>
>> I advertised for hiring yesterday, a no experience necessary, get paid to
>> learn MIG mild steel welding.   PT/FT flexible hours.  We hire 17 year
>> olds.  I immediately got crap from this guy saying that the “young people
>> of today” cannot exist on less than $18/hour which is what he gets and he
>> works from home.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lots of people defended my $15/entry level, get paid to learn welding
>> position.
>>
>> He deleted his post 

Re: [AFMUG] AC Power Plant

[Adam Moffett]

We have a CE+T inverter here….our low voltage contractor supplied it so I’m 
afraid I don’t know where they buy it.

Two comments though:
1)CE+T is in Europe, so there’s a time lag if you need support.

2) the inverter we have is overkill.  You can configure the phase and frequency 
of each output. If you want 208 3-phase 60hz,or 240v 50hz, or multiple 120v 60 
hz, or 1+1 redundant 120v 60hz; this box will do any of it, but you can also 
configure bad things that will blow fuses if you aren’t careful.  I haven’t 
used the box TJ linked, but I’d get a manual before committing and make sure 
it’s something your staff can deal with.


Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Mark - Myakka Technologies 

Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2023 1:01:27 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AC Power Plant


TJ,


That looks interesting.  Do you have someone at CE+T or a dealer you work with?



--

Best regards,

 Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com


Myakka Communications

www.Myakka.com


--


Monday, January 23, 2023, 10:45:51 PM, you wrote:



On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 11:57 AM Paul Dowling 
mailto:p...@believebroadband.com>> wrote:
I have the Newmar in my house and it works fine. But for the price, you are 
close to an ICT rectifier and their
sine wave inverters. (300W and 1500W) They give you the ability to remote power 
cycle the load as well.

Paul
--
Paul Dowling
dowl...@believebroadband.com
Believe Broadband
www.believebroadband.com
(410) 902-0070 x115



On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 1:01 PM castarritt 
mailto:castarr...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Alpha FXM-2000 was our go-to solution, but they are discontinued now.  We have 
one Newmar AC-UPS-48-2000 in the field and it has been fine so far.  I've never 
looked for anything over 2000 watts on an AC UPS; DC seems like a far better 
option for that much power.

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 11:16 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
mailto:m...@mailmt.com>> wrote:
I have a nice DC power plant running my -48v stuff has about 140 ah worth of 
battery on it.  Runs well has remote monitoring with e-mail alerts, web gui, 
SNMP, etc.

I'm looking for something similar for my AC stuff.  Total load is now about 
1500 Watts.  Looking for something that can handle about 3000 Watts to let us 
grow.

Want it to have remote monitoring.  I'll start with about 100ah worth of 
battery, but may need to add to that as we add more equipment.

Any ideas?

For what it is worth I do have some nice cyberpower battery units with the 
external battery plug.  Has anyone tried to use larger sealed batteries with 
those units?  Just wondering is the have any type of battery temp monitoring on 
them.


--

Thanks,
 Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] amber alert

[Adam Moffett]

Maybe a clever guy like you could capture and record an actual amber alert over 
the air and then repeat it on demand.  When you get the alert to watch for the 
missing person in the blue Hyundai you know it’s really your front door alarm.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Chuck McCown via AF 

Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2022 11:16:18 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: [AFMUG] amber alert

I wonder what kind of special signal they send to your phone to trigger an 
amber alert?  I would love to be able to trigger my phone on certain alarms 
like that.

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] amber alert

[Adam Moffett]

Everything sent to cell phone with a pair of keys.  One key is in your SIM 
card, and the other is in the EPC at the cell company’s head end.  I assume the 
amber alert is still encrypted like everything else. Could be wrong,  but you 
might have to crack that to send anything to your phone that it would listen to.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Chuck McCown via AF 

Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2022 11:16:18 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: [AFMUG] amber alert

I wonder what kind of special signal they send to your phone to trigger an 
amber alert?  I would love to be able to trigger my phone on certain alarms 
like that.

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Cordless phones

[Adam Moffett]

Yeah zoiper works fine.  SIP + cell phone is good as long as it doesn’t 
actually try to use cellular data.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of TJ Trout 
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 2:37:08 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cordless phones

Zopier on your cell phone registered to the server just like another extension

On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 11:18 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
I just found a vtech that claims 2300 feet and will work with bluetooth.  So I 
can use a wireless headphone.
Then I bought a cisco ata.  I think this is gonna work.   Sure be nice to find 
a wifi/sip cordless handset.  I am sure they are out there but did not stumble 
upon any.  Probably a cell phone app that could do it.

Found an industrial cordless phone manufacturer that claims huge range on 900 
mhz.  $1300...

From: Bill Prince
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 12:11 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cordless phones


I think you're thinking DECT 6?

We have some (now ancient) Panasonic DECT 6 phones that have been very 
reliable. They are plain old POTS phones, but we have them connected through a 
pair of ATA adapters. The only thing is the headsets are wired, but that works 
for us. I clip the handset onto my belt, and walk around with a one-ear wired 
headset.



bp


On 9/2/2022 10:41 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Before I google, I ask the borg.
I need to have some kind of phone that I can put in my pocket or clip to my 
belt.
It would be connected to my office asterisk.  I would like some kind of blue 
tooth earpiece too.

This is so I can catch calls when I am the only one here.
I remember back in the day, the DECT 5.0 phones had really nice range.  So I 
will probably search for those.
And I will probably feed it off of an ATA.

I do not want to call forward to my cell phone.  People come and go all day 
along around here so I never know if the office is unattended for short 
intervals when I am out on the shop floor or in the back lot.  I just want a 
phone that will ring along with all the other phones if I choose to turn it on.

Anyone have a better solution?




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] 900 MHz PtP

[Adam Moffett]

I think the 450 is all you’ve got.

For me, nlos isn’t worth pursuing anymore. The link degrades over years as 
trees grow and there’s nothing much you can do about it.  I would rather say 
“no” and pursue something else with my time.   But If I had to do 900MHz I 
think 450i is the only reasonable choice that I’m aware of.

You could hunt for old cards or old ubnt on eBay I guess.

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Craig Baird 

Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 2:12:04 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] 900 MHz PtP

Is there a good source for an inexpensive, but reliable 900 MHz PtP, solution 
these days? Looking for something for a client that needs a nLOS link. All I 
can find is Cambium 450, which seems crazy expensive for what I'm looking for. 
Back in my WISP days, I seem to recall you could throw together a pretty cheap, 
reliable 900 MHz solution with Mikrotik, but it seems those have gone the way 
of the dodo. Seems UBNT doesn't sell 900 MHz stuff anymore either. Guessing the 
small band size probably made 900 MHz impractical for delivering the speeds 
generally required these days. Can anyone point me at anything?

Craig

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Tower PoE Switch Recommendations

[Adam Moffett]

Yeah I can’t complain about rack injector.  Good solution

Get Outlook for iOS

From: AF  on behalf of Sean Heskett 
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2022 3:44:50 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower PoE Switch Recommendations

Our preferred solution is:
Switch of your choice + Packetflux Rack injector

With the rack injector you can power pretty much anything.  And with the switch 
of your choice you have unlimited options from dumb switch to layer3 or even 
full blown router



On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 9:38 AM Jason McKemie 
mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>> 
wrote:
Does anyone have any recommendations on a solid PoE switch to use at a tower 
site? It would be nice if it had dual voltage options as well. --
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
Sean Heskett

ZIRKEL
Internet • WiFi • Phone • TV
970-871-8500 x100 - Office
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Chemistry

[Adam Moffett]

> On Jul 2, 2022, at 11:38 AM, Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
> 
> I only remember L and D for chirality. Did dexter I think.  L stands for 
> left I think but maybe it is some kind Greek word.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Jul 2, 2022, at 8:21 AM, Chuck Macenski  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> While I would like to say I remember this from Chemistry class, I believe my 
>> first memory of this is from an episode of Breaking Bad. 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 3:27 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>>> Cis and trans isomers occur both in organic molecules and in inorganic 
>>> coordination complexes. Cis and trans descriptors are not used for cases of 
>>> conformational isomerism where the two geometric forms easily interconvert, 
>>> such as most open-chain single-bonded structures; instead, the terms "syn" 
>>> and "anti" are used.
>>>  
>>> I am a conformational isomer. 
>>> You may call my syn or sir.
>>> I call my dad’s sister anti. 
>>> -- 
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Motivated Perception/Confirmation Bias Term in Tech

[Adam Moffett]

So it is.

It was taught to me as one of the logical fallacies formally identified 
in ancient Greece.but the phrase itself is Latin. Maybe the 
professor was mistaken.



On 2/1/2022 3:30 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

non amicus Graecus, non Latinus

No my friend, it's a Latin expression..

On Tue, Feb 1, 2022, 8:39 AM  wrote:

In classical Greek sophistry, the term was “Post hoc ergo propter
hoc”.  Which means “after, therefore because of”.

It’s one of the classic logical fallacies.

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 01, 2022 1:10 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Motivated Perception/Confirmation Bias Term in Tech

You guys are a bunch of nerds, somebody has to know the term Im
looking for to describe this phenomena.

When an inert even triggers customers to believe there is an issue
that doesnt exist, or they notice an existing issue and assign it
to the event.

Some examples:

You put up a notification that site A is undergoing maintenance,
so a customer on Site B that is totally isolated sayas that ever
since that maintenance, there has been a problem.

We did a mass change of our defalt WPA keys on managed routers.
Probably 1 percent of the customers claimed that "ever since the
change" there has been some issue. Changing they WPA key wont
impact performance.

I just completed a network wide rate plan naming convention
change, every non custom account will have  anew name for their
rate plan on their invoice. this had zero service impact, its just
clerical, but as the bills go out, probably 1 percent (probably
that same 1 percent) will call in with an "ever since the change"
complaint.

Im not looking to argue with the customer as to whether there is
an issue or not, Im simply looking for the name of the phenomenon.

Id like to incorporate this into tier 1 support training so that
this doesnt continually generate nuisance escalations. Some
reference material on it would be the bees knees. Everything has a
name, like Petrichor: the way it smells outside after rain
or Phosphenes: the lights you see when you close your eyes and
press your hands to them.

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Musco Towers

[Adam Moffett]

On those fiberglass ones I was talking about we had them designed for 
two 3' dishes and 8 sector antennas. The limiting factor on fiberglass 
was not the break strength but how much deflection you could tolerate 
before your backhaul links go down.  If I recall correctly that loading 
was only 25% of break strength in high winds, but at 70mph wind would 
bend the pole too far for the backhaul to stay aligned.


.but the real answer is ask the manufacturer about your loads and 
pay them for engineering if you have to.



On 1/5/2022 9:45 AM, Nate Burke wrote:
I have no details, but in the promotional video they have it looks 
like 4 450Ms and 2 2or3' dishes at the top of what looks like a 100' 
pole.


On 1/5/2022 8:38 AM, Tim Withrow via AF wrote:

Whats the windloading on these towers?

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 9:35 AM, Nate Burke
 wrote:
Would that be true even on these that bolt onto a concrete base?  I
would think that a 80' pole would be 80' if it's bolting on a base.

Install of $3-4k, what was the actual pole cost?

On 1/5/2022 7:43 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
> And btw:  an 80' pole is 70' AGL.  The bottom 10ft goes in the
dirt.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Adam Moffett 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2022 8:27 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Musco Towers
>
> My last outfit did a whole bunch of 80' fiberglass poles like
that. With step bolts, safety climb systems, and mounting
hardware at the top.
>
> 80' was about the biggest pole you could put in with a normal
size digger derrick truck.  You can call any utility line
contractor for that.  We had them put in for around $2500 each.
Bore hole, assemble pole sections, drop in hole, back fill, and
hydraulic compaction.  I'm positive we can't get that price
today, but I'd imagine $3000-$4000 for installation.  Obviously
it's different if it's your own derrick truck.
>
> We did one that was 96' and called in a crane for that one. 
The derrick truck could lift it, but wasn't tall enough to pick
it above the center of gravity so couldn't tip it into the hole.
Even so, crane service for a few hours was only an extra $500 or so.
>
> -Adam
>
>
> On 12/23/2021 12:14 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
>> https://www.musco.com/wireless-structures/
>>
>> Anybody used these or know about pricing?  We seem to have a
growing
>> need for 60-100' towers, but the concrete cost is always the
killer.
>> Seems like this would need a smaller concrete base, and
doesn't need
>> all the forming and curing time.  Years ago we did a project for a
>> municipality, and they put in a 50' light pole for us to attach a
>> single SM to, but they just backfilled the precast base with
aggregate
>> and did start to finish in a couple hours.  It was just a normal
>> streetlight pole though, no pegs or anything.
>>
>


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com





-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Musco Towers

[Adam Moffett]

OhI missed the concrete base in the diagram.  I guess I'd assume 
they don't count the base in the height.


The fiberglass ones we got were ~$7k-$8k for 80ft including pole steps 
and safety climb.  It was a bulk deal for several truckloads of poles, 
and it was several years ago.  No idea on current pricing.  The company 
was in Canada, and I think it was called RS Poles.


What do these Musco poles cost?


On 1/5/2022 9:34 AM, Nate Burke wrote:
Would that be true even on these that bolt onto a concrete base?  I 
would think that a 80' pole would be 80' if it's bolting on a base.


Install of $3-4k, what was the actual pole cost?

On 1/5/2022 7:43 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

And btw:  an 80' pole is 70' AGL.  The bottom 10ft goes in the dirt.


-Original Message-
From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2022 8:27 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Musco Towers

My last outfit did a whole bunch of 80' fiberglass poles like that. 
With step bolts, safety climb systems, and mounting hardware at the top.


80' was about the biggest pole you could put in with a normal size 
digger derrick truck.  You can call any utility line contractor for 
that.  We had them put in for around $2500 each. Bore hole, assemble 
pole sections, drop in hole, back fill, and hydraulic compaction.  
I'm positive we can't get that price today, but I'd imagine 
$3000-$4000 for installation.  Obviously it's different if it's your 
own derrick truck.


We did one that was 96' and called in a crane for that one.  The 
derrick truck could lift it, but wasn't tall enough to pick it above 
the center of gravity so couldn't tip it into the hole. Even so, 
crane service for a few hours was only an extra $500 or so.


-Adam


On 12/23/2021 12:14 PM, Nate Burke wrote:

https://www.musco.com/wireless-structures/

Anybody used these or know about pricing?  We seem to have a growing
need for 60-100' towers, but the concrete cost is always the killer.
Seems like this would need a smaller concrete base, and doesn't need
all the forming and curing time.  Years ago we did a project for a
municipality, and they put in a 50' light pole for us to attach a
single SM to, but they just backfilled the precast base with aggregate
and did start to finish in a couple hours.  It was just a normal
streetlight pole though, no pegs or anything.








--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Musco Towers

[Adam Moffett]

My last outfit did a whole bunch of 80' fiberglass poles like that.  
With step bolts, safety climb systems, and mounting hardware at the top.


80' was about the biggest pole you could put in with a normal size 
digger derrick truck.  You can call any utility line contractor for 
that.  We had them put in for around $2500 each. Bore hole, assemble 
pole sections, drop in hole, back fill, and hydraulic compaction.  I'm 
positive we can't get that price today, but I'd imagine $3000-$4000 for 
installation.  Obviously it's different if it's your own derrick truck.


We did one that was 96' and called in a crane for that one.  The derrick 
truck could lift it, but wasn't tall enough to pick it above the center 
of gravity so couldn't tip it into the hole. Even so, crane service for 
a few hours was only an extra $500 or so.


-Adam


On 12/23/2021 12:14 PM, Nate Burke wrote:

https://www.musco.com/wireless-structures/

Anybody used these or know about pricing?  We seem to have a growing 
need for 60-100' towers, but the concrete cost is always the killer.  
Seems like this would need a smaller concrete base, and doesn't need 
all the forming and curing time.  Years ago we did a project for a 
municipality, and they put in a 50' light pole for us to attach a 
single SM to, but they just backfilled the precast base with aggregate 
and did start to finish in a couple hours.  It was just a normal 
streetlight pole though, no pegs or anything.




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] IPv6 in home routers

[Adam Moffett]

Again we're talking about manufacturers not paying attention to it.  
It's pretty standard for a home router to have a default set of firewall 
rules /in addition/ to NAT.  The fact that they didn't bother to have a 
default set of IPv6 rules isn't a flaw in the protocol itself.


On 12/15/2021 11:09 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
Exactly why we NAT on IPv4 for all residential connections.  The end 
user is not capable of protecting their home network properly.  
Nothing gets in unless it's explicitly requested.


I know NAT is not a firewall in and of itself, but the simple process 
of using NAT at the end user CPE stops a ton of trouble from devices 
getting compromised.


If we were to implement IPv6 to the end users we would throw up a 
"block all inbound traffic", so what did we really accomplish? IPv6 is 
flawed in so many ways.


On 12/14/21 1:30 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
Yes the firewall thing is a /glaring/ hole especially since you’re 
giving out public IP space to everything.


I wonder how many internet enabled refrigerators and ovens have log4j 
libraries.


*From:*Jesse DuPont 
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 14, 2021 11:49 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; 
dmmoff...@gmail.com

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] IPv6 in home routers

I have done (somewhat) comprehensive testing of consumer routers and 
IPv6. You're right, Cambium/ReadyNet's implementation is either not 
functional or buggy (like, sometimes fails to announce itself as a 
gateway to the LAN). Mikrotik is great, but does take a few steps. 
Calix's support for IPv6 is solid and reliable. Netgear and Asus also 
have good IPv6 support, but it must be enabled. If doing DHCP, just 
enabling it with Auto Config is sufficient most of the time. If 
PPPoE, need to specify it's PPPoE and then to use the same session as 
IPv4. Linksys also generally has working IPv6 support, although the 
older stuff (3+ years) is a little spotty.


When I say working IPv6 support, I mean that they request a prefix 
via DHCP-PD, install that prefix on the LAN side and start announcing 
it to the LAN for SLAAC addressing. Most of them except Mikrotik seem 
to also require a global address via SLAAC on their WAN ports. So in 
my implementation, I have a SLAAC prefix on the subscriber router 
network from my equipment, and DHCP-PD running and the routers assign 
themselves a global address from the SLAAC prefix on their WAN ports 
and the DHCP-PD prefix on their LAN side. I guess they use the WAN 
address for things like DNS queries (for themselves and when they're 
doing DNS proxy). Mikrotik will use any global address for things 
like DNS queries, even an address on it's LAN side.


I'll also say that seems the IPv6 firewall is not enabled on about 
half of what I tested. Maybe it's better now, but even Mikrotik today 
doesn't have a standard set of consumer-router IPv6 firewall rules, 
at least not in RouterOS v6 or earlier. Maybe they do in v7.




*Jesse DuPont*

Owner / Network Architect
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net 


Celerity Networks LLC / Celerity Broadband LLC
Like us! facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc

Like us! facebook.com/celeritybroadband

On 12/13/21 2:51 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com  
wrote:


    I was doing some testing on our dual stack FTTX network.

    I grabbed a CnPilot R201P off the shelf.  IPv6 was disabled by
    default.  You had to enable it in 3 different places and even after
    following the guides on Cambium’s site the prefix delegation seems
    to not really work.

    I grabbed an AirCube…..no IPv6 support at all.  It’s supported in
    the underlying OS, but not in the GUI.  Ubiquiti support says it’s
    coming, but they’ve been saying that for 2 years +.

    I grabbed a Mikrotik…..works perfectly fine, but setup is beyond
    what any consumer is going to do.  If I’m quibbling, it doesn’t
    support stateful dhcp assignments from a delegated prefix. That’s
    not too big of a deal.

    Out of 3 routers I have close at hand, 1 is a faulty implementation,
    1 is not implemented at all, and one is too hard for normal people.

    So when people run out to the store and get a Netgear, Asus, or
    whatever router off the shelf is it hit-or-miss with those too?  I
    guess I naively assumed that 25 years after IPv6 was created that
    we’d have working implementations by now.



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] IPv6 in home routers

[Adam Moffett]

I don't think we're talking about flaws in the protocol.  I think we're 
talking about it being a secondary concern for manufacturers so they're 
not putting enough attention into it.



On 12/15/2021 11:06 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
Correct. We still don't know how to properly hand out IPv6 to end 
users, and routers have issues doing it.


The protocol stack is a flawed implementation.

On 12/13/21 4:51 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

I was doing some testing on our dual stack FTTX network.

I grabbed a CnPilot R201P off the shelf.  IPv6 was disabled by 
default.  You had to enable it in 3 different places and even after 
following the guides on Cambium’s site the prefix delegation seems to 
not really work.


I grabbed an AirCube…..no IPv6 support at all.  It’s supported in the 
underlying OS, but not in the GUI.  Ubiquiti support says it’s 
coming, but they’ve been saying that for 2 years +.


I grabbed a Mikrotik…..works perfectly fine, but setup is beyond what 
any consumer is going to do.  If I’m quibbling, it doesn’t support 
stateful dhcp assignments from a delegated prefix. That’s not too big 
of a deal.


Out of 3 routers I have close at hand, 1 is a faulty implementation, 
1 is not implemented at all, and one is too hard for normal people.


So when people run out to the store and get a Netgear, Asus, or 
whatever router off the shelf is it hit-or-miss with those too? I 
guess I naively assumed that 25 years after IPv6 was created that 
we’d have working implementations by now.





--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] IPv6 in home routers

[Adam Moffett]

Yeah this topic is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.


I'm generally in favor of providing the customer a router for a nominal 
fee.  Like $5-10/month for a router as a service.  I like the visibility 
to be able to see which specific device is consuming the whole pipe, or 
to see if a connectivity issue is due to wifi signal or something else.  
It lets me speak from a position of having empirical observations of 
what is wrong instead of inferring.



But it takes a certain amount of knowledge and/or training to deal with 
that, and I relate to the position of ISP's who don't want to bother 
with it.




On 12/15/2021 10:54 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

"Customer owning the router fixes those issues."

As long as the customer is involved in anything at all (kind of hard 
to avoid), expect problems.  ;-)




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Colin Stanners" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Wednesday, December 15, 2021 9:49:34 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] IPv6 in home routers

Because they / their IT person are smart at avoiding problems.

Most ISP-provided routers aren't setup (or the customer is not 
knowledgeable enough) by someone to be following the same wireless 
settings (or, for more advanced cases, port forwarding rules) as the 
previous router, so customers find random printers / doorbells / 
lightbults / devices not working after an ISP-arranged router upgrade 
or their changing of ISPs. Customer owning the router fixes those issues.


On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 3:58 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

People still buy their own routers?

Why?

Just do it for the customer.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 


Midwest Internet Exchange 


The Brothers WISP 





*From: *dmmoff...@gmail.com
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Monday, December 13, 2021 3:51:07 PM
*Subject: *[AFMUG] IPv6 in home routers

I was doing some testing on our dual stack FTTX network.

I grabbed a CnPilot R201P off the shelf.  IPv6 was disabled by
default.  You had to enable it in 3 different places and even
after following the guides on Cambium’s site the prefix delegation
seems to not really work.

I grabbed an AirCube…..no IPv6 support at all.  It’s supported in
the underlying OS, but not in the GUI.  Ubiquiti support says it’s
coming, but they’ve been saying that for 2 years +.

I grabbed a Mikrotik…..works perfectly fine, but setup is beyond
what any consumer is going to do. If I’m quibbling, it doesn’t
support stateful dhcp assignments from a delegated prefix.  That’s
not too big of a deal.

Out of 3 routers I have close at hand, 1 is a faulty
implementation, 1 is not implemented at all, and one is too hard
for normal people.

So when people run out to the store and get a Netgear, Asus, or
whatever router off the shelf is it hit-or-miss with those too?  I
guess I naively assumed that 25 years after IPv6 was created that
we’d have working implementations by now.


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] AWS issues?

[Adam Moffett]

Spikes on down detector would seem to agree with your observation.


On 12/15/2021 10:41 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
Anyone else seeing real slowness from AWS DBs this morning? I couldn't 
even load the dashboard a while ago, but now it comes up. Their status 
says everything is fine but even simple queries from multiple sources 
are taking minutes to execute.




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Managing Others Employees

[Adam Moffett]

Reminds me of those AITA questions on Facebook.


and maybe I'm the A-hole, but I would resent someone giving me 
marching orders like that.  I really actually would retry calling 
"Lady#2" a few times throughout the day because I am actually sensitive 
to the fact that people need their phones and internet to do business, 
but /_telling _/me to do it is a great way to get me to say "just have 
Lady#2 call me when she's ready.  I'll be here all day."




On 11/29/2021 12:31 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
This is a new one for me today.  Realtors office with 2 ladies working 
from home with phone extensions.  Lady#2's phone isn't working. Lady#1 
told me to call Lady#2 and troubleshoot.  Sounds like Lady#2 might 
have a bad patch cable, or internal network problem, as phone seems to 
not be connected to her Router.  Lady#1 told me 'You need to keep on 
her to resolve this because she needs to answer the phone'   So Lady#1 
want's me to keep on Lady#2 to fix her problem?  This was after Lady#1 
said 'Here is Lady#2 cell phone, I couldn't get through to her, so you 
need to keep trying to get her until it's resolved'


This sounds like it should be an internal management thing, keeping 
your employees on task and getting ready for work



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Omicron Variant

[Adam Moffett]

"I built this castle with my own two slaves!"

Freakin classic.


On 11/27/2021 10:41 AM, Nate Burke wrote:

Am I the only one that thinks of this whenever I see it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia5c78zlyxw=4s



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] E7-2 GPON and VOIP

[Adam Moffett]

Is there any such thing as a GPON system that /isn't/ vendor locked?

I'm not specifically defending Calix here, I'm just thinking I haven't 
yet seen GPON equipment that made any assertions about interop with 
other vendors.  Unless you went ActiveE aren't you still locked in with 
whatever vendor you went with?




On 10/16/2021 12:16 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
"no way to direct an ONT to a provisioning server on boot-up that 
isn't Calix"


and welcome to Calix. That's one of the reasons I opted to not go with 
Calix for our fiber system. Just as vendor-locked as Apple and Ubiquiti.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Daniel White" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Friday, October 15, 2021 7:52:15 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] E7-2 GPON and VOIP

So with most VoIP devices... you can point them to an auto-provision 
server.  When they boot up, they send a request (FTP, HTTP, HTTPS) for 
the config file based on MAC address, the provisioning server creates 
the file or serves up a file already created.


There is no way to direct an ONT to a provisioning server on boot-up 
that isn't Calix.  That is where the ONT expects to find the SIP 
credentials.  There is no way to have the Calix Cloud pull credentials 
based on MAC address from a SIP provisioning server.  So the only 
option you have is to manually add the credentials by first creating 
them on the VoIP platform and then entering them into the Calix Cloud.


There could be a way to do this via API... and really there isn't any 
reason I can think of why there is not. But Calix has a hell of a play 
to pay mentality and partnering with them in any way as a vendor is a 
lot of paperwork and bureaucracy.


photograph  
Daniel White
Co-Founder
phone: +1 (702) 470-2770
direct:+1 (702) 470-2766

D. Bernardi 
October 15, 2021 at 11:49
At 01:19 PM 10/15/2021, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="D1116C3466A99CAA51BD3FBE"
Content-Language: en-US

Carl,

We have many ISPs reselling our VoIP service using Calix ONTs
(Gigacenter and Gigaspire).  There is no auto-provision
option which is a shame.



Is TR-069 not an option to provision outside of OMCI?


Daniel White
Co-Founder
phone:Â +1 (702) 470-2770
direct: +1 (702) 470-2766

Carl Peterson
October 13, 2021 at 09:21
our Gigacenters and P series ONTs all have POTs jacks. 
Any chance you could point me in the right direction as to
how to start configuring VOIP service?  I have no idea
how to even begin thinking about it. Â



-- 


Carl Peterson

PORT NETWORKS

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707Â


Chuck McCown via AF
October 13, 2021 at 07:59
If you use onts that have pots jacks, yes.

Sent from my iPhone



Carl Peterson
October 13, 2021 at 06:27
I've got a few business customers who would like to add
phone service.  In the past we have just set them up with
a service like Goto/Jive.  Is it possible to configure
something like this and then just use the POTS port on the
ONTs?  GPON4 card says it supports VOIP. Â

E7-2_GPON-4r2Â Voice–NativeSIP/VoIPandTDMGatewaysupportÂ

-- 


Carl Peterson

PORT NETWORKS

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707Â


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



Daniel White 
October 15, 2021 at 10:19
Carl,

We have many ISPs reselling our VoIP service using Calix ONTs
(Gigacenter and Gigaspire).  There is no auto-provision option
which is a shame.

Carl Peterson 
October 13, 2021 at 09:21
our Gigacenters and P series ONTs all have POTs jacks.  Any chance
you could point me in the right direction as to how to start
configuring VOIP service?  I have no idea how to 

Re: [AFMUG] -48V system temperature probe

[Adam Moffett]

I think taping it to a post is a good idea because the mass of the battery
may not change temperature as quickly as the ambient air, and the
temperature of the lead post may more accurately reflect the internal
temperature of the battery.  I don't know whether it really matters if it's
on positive or negative.

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 12:23 PM Carl Peterson 
wrote:

>
> Should the temp probe go on the - or + battery terminal in a system where
> the + side is referenced to ground?
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Ethernet ground block

[Adam Moffett]

.would there be no benefit to grounding the shield in the building 
before it gets to our switch?



On 10/7/2021 2:18 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

Yes, there is one at both ends of every ethernet link.

Many people don't realize that ethernet itself is fully isolated end 
to end.   There are signal transformers on both ends.


It's this property which allows poe on the data lines to work as they 
inject power on the center tap of the line side of the magnetics.  Of 
course the poe part isn't isolated unless power isolation is added as 
well.


On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 10:46 AM Adam Moffett <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Is there an equivalent to the cable TV ground blocks but for Cat5?

I would basically look like a coupler with a ground wire attached
to the
shield.  Much more basic than a surge suppressor.

-Adam



-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Ethernet ground block

[Adam Moffett]

I would care if it blew up for no reason or if there was water ingress 
through a crummy seal.


On 10/7/2021 1:45 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
Yeah, I don't really see a good reason to not just use a surge 
suppressor. Cheap-rate Ubiquiti or Mimosa suppressors can be had for 
~$10... and you obviously aren't going to care much about the quality 
of the actual surge suppression in this case anyway.


On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 12:28 PM Adam Moffett <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I guess both indoor and outdoor?  Bonding for R56 compliance and also
for maybe getting RF noise to ground without going through our switch.

I suppose indoor we can hack it, and outdoor might as well use the
surge
suppressor.  I'd imagine the housing and glands and such is more
money
than the PCB so there's nothing gained by paring it down.

-Adam



On 10/7/2021 12:56 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> Trim back the jacket and attach a ground wire.  Are you wanting
> something for outdoor mounting?  It would have to be two shielded
> jacks and you would have to use shielded plugs on it.  So two
jacks on
> a pcb and then some kind of housing.
>
> -Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
> Sent: Thursday, October 7, 2021 10:45 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: [AFMUG] Ethernet ground block
>
> Is there an equivalent to the cable TV ground blocks but for Cat5?
>
> I would basically look like a coupler with a ground wire
attached to the
> shield.  Much more basic than a surge suppressor.
>
> -Adam
>
>
>

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Ethernet ground block

[Adam Moffett]

I guess both indoor and outdoor?  Bonding for R56 compliance and also 
for maybe getting RF noise to ground without going through our switch.


I suppose indoor we can hack it, and outdoor might as well use the surge 
suppressor.  I'd imagine the housing and glands and such is more money 
than the PCB so there's nothing gained by paring it down.


-Adam



On 10/7/2021 12:56 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Trim back the jacket and attach a ground wire.  Are you wanting 
something for outdoor mounting?  It would have to be two shielded 
jacks and you would have to use shielded plugs on it.  So two jacks on 
a pcb and then some kind of housing.


-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, October 7, 2021 10:45 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: [AFMUG] Ethernet ground block

Is there an equivalent to the cable TV ground blocks but for Cat5?

I would basically look like a coupler with a ground wire attached to the
shield.  Much more basic than a surge suppressor.

-Adam





--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] Ethernet ground block

[Adam Moffett]

Is there an equivalent to the cable TV ground blocks but for Cat5?

I would basically look like a coupler with a ground wire attached to the 
shield.  Much more basic than a surge suppressor.


-Adam



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 3GHz radio question

[Adam Moffett]

Oh I see.  I never had any 450b.  The boss kept buying the old style SM's.

On 10/6/2021 8:04 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
That's not true for the 3ghz 450B SMs, they can be switched to PTP 
mode (which essentially turns them into a PTP 450). We have a link 
running with two of the SMs in PTP mode.


On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:32 PM Adam Moffett <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Yes if he has an SM then he needs an AP to make a link, but they
do make "PTP 450" products that are in the same form factor as an
SM.  Maybe he has two of those?

If he's in FCC territory he also needs to sign up for a SAS vendor
through CnMaestro to use those legally. Current firmware still
lets you disable the CBRS mode and operate the old way, but nobody
should be doing that on a new deployment.

-Adam


On 10/6/2021 6:58 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

A local wisp said he ordered a 3Ghz Cambium subscriber unit and
waiting on another of same...i told him i believe you need a
dedicated AP to subscriber and you can't configure a subscriber
as an AP ..
Am I wrong? Never seen or worked with any

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 3GHz radio question

[Adam Moffett]

Yes if he has an SM then he needs an AP to make a link, but they do make 
"PTP 450" products that are in the same form factor as an SM.  Maybe he 
has two of those?


If he's in FCC territory he also needs to sign up for a SAS vendor 
through CnMaestro to use those legally.  Current firmware still lets you 
disable the CBRS mode and operate the old way, but nobody should be 
doing that on a new deployment.


-Adam


On 10/6/2021 6:58 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
A local wisp said he ordered a 3Ghz Cambium subscriber unit and 
waiting on another of same...i told him i believe you need a dedicated 
AP to subscriber and you can't configure a subscriber as an AP ..

Am I wrong? Never seen or worked with any

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Patch cable failure

[Adam Moffett]

Heh, "fiber demons."

A few months back I swapped a cable between an old Cisco X2 card and a 
patch panel and the port wouldn't link up.  Cleaned and checked 
everything, ran the OTDR, tried another cable, nothing worked.


Then I put the old patch cable back in and it linked right up. Switched 
back and forth, tried the new patch cable on a different interface.  
Everything checks out except this one port won't link unless this one cable.


I still don't know what that's all about.  Maybe the port and the 
connectors are both at the same extreme end of dimensional tolerances.


or maybe it's those "fiber demons" you mention.

-Adam



On 9/30/2021 4:08 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
Put the patch cable on the VFL, nothing showed up.  Light came out the 
other end, no spots along the cable unless I bent it tight. I'll just 
mark it up to the fiber demons.


On 9/28/2021 7:47 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
100% chance the VFL finds something.  Light is light - be it a red 
blinker or SFP blink.


Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 10:10 AM Nate Burke > wrote:


Maybe I should go pull it out of the garbage and put the VFL on
it to
see if there's anything

On 9/23/2021 9:05 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> We had one do that in a splice case a few weeks back. Just
decided to break all by itself. Maybe temperature or vibrations
did it.  Very visible fault with the VFL.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 7:56 AM, Nate Burke 
wrote:
>>
>> If I didn't diagnose it, I wouldn't have believed it.  1M SM
fiber Patch cable installed in a rack between router and a
switch.  Link went down at exactly noon. Router had no link,
switch showed link. Replaced both SFP's with no change.  Reversed
patch cable and link came up.  Put back to original, no link. 
Threw that cable in the garbage and put in a new one.  I have a
camera looking at the front of this rack.  Nothing moved when the
link went down, I can see the link light turn off on the router
when it failed.
>>
>> I never would have believed a fiber patch cable would just up
and fail with no external force.
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com







-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] example land lease for tower construction

[Adam Moffett]

Our leases were for a rectangle with specific size and location. I never 
thought of leasing an unspecified amount of space, but yeah if that was 
done then a person might be tempted to treat the leased area as being 
unlimited.



On 9/20/2021 4:42 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I have asked for more rent when I discovered they were occupying about 
5X the foot print of the original installation.  I discovered a small 
building, backup generator, many more solar panels, large propane 
tank, fenced a large area etc.  Nothing in the original lease spelled 
out the original footprint.  But as I was the original landlord and 
the original tenant it was not a big deal.  When I sold the company 
that was the tenant then it became a big deal.

*From:* Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Monday, September 20, 2021 1:36 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] example land lease for tower construction

I don't have an example land lease agreement.  But these are some 
things that have come up.


24/7 access without notice
    (some landowners want a phone call when you go up, sounds 
reasonable at first, but it becomes a nuisance)


Define the path/ROW for vehicle access and put it in writing in the 
lease, and physically mark it if it's not obvious.  Use orange 
fiberglass reflective stakes or similar.
    (two different landowners have complained about techs driving 
across their hay.  In both cases there was an agreed upon path that 
could be driven on, but it's not marked and not obvious to a new 
technician.)


The lease is for the land, not what's on it.  One landowner insisted 
on more rent when more things went on the tower.  This didn't make 
sense to anyone except him, but apparently it needed to be spelled out.


I can think of a few other disputes, but they had nothing to do with 
what was in the lease but rather the fact that the landlord was a 
crazy person.


On 9/20/2021 11:00 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
A buddy is looking for an example agreement that covers all the 
things you wish you thought of the first lease.

this is for leasing ground to construct a tower on



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] example land lease for tower construction

[Adam Moffett]

Oh.spell out who's responsible for maintaining the access road, 
including snow plowing.  If the landlord is responsible then include a 
remedy (a free month etc) if they fail to plow it within a reasonable 
time frame.  Maybe you have a snowcat and nobody is required to plow, if 
so then spell that out too.


In one of those "driving on the hay" situations, the access road was a 
tractor path and the ruts were too deep for anything that wasn't a 
tractor.  It was easier to just drive a truck across the field.  The 
landlord invited us to fill in the ruts ourselves.  I thought that 
wasn't reasonable, but nobody spelled out that the road had to be 
maintained to any specific standard so shame on us.


-Adam


On 9/20/2021 3:36 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:


I don't have an example land lease agreement.  But these are some 
things that have come up.


24/7 access without notice
    (some landowners want a phone call when you go up, sounds 
reasonable at first, but it becomes a nuisance)


Define the path/ROW for vehicle access and put it in writing in the 
lease, and physically mark it if it's not obvious.  Use orange 
fiberglass reflective stakes or similar.
    (two different landowners have complained about techs driving 
across their hay.  In both cases there was an agreed upon path that 
could be driven on, but it's not marked and not obvious to a new 
technician.)


The lease is for the land, not what's on it.  One landowner insisted 
on more rent when more things went on the tower.  This didn't make 
sense to anyone except him, but apparently it needed to be spelled out.



I can think of a few other disputes, but they had nothing to do with 
what was in the lease but rather the fact that the landlord was a 
crazy person.



On 9/20/2021 11:00 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
A buddy is looking for an example agreement that covers all the 
things you wish you thought of the first lease.


this is for leasing ground to construct a tower on

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** interesting...we installed several laser links in the 1990s...

[Adam Moffett]

There's a whiz-bang-wow factor for free space optics.  I'm not sure if 
there's any real technical advantage over millimeter wave though.  None 
that I'm currently aware of.


-Adam


On 9/20/2021 12:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
Seems to me like you're almost always going to be a lot better off 
just using 80ghz (or even 60ghz, depending on requirements)... I guess 
if you need more than 10Gbps it might make sense, but otherwise, it 
seems like playing with this stuff is just going to cause a lot of 
unnecessary headaches.


On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 10:13 AM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I hope its come along way. we did some and it was awful. auto
alignment had to be turned of because it would sometimes just
start adjusting and go out of alignment like it was having a
seizure. lens fogging was awful. We had one where it would take a
courthouse down roughly the same time every day, finally tracked
it to sun reflection off an aluminum parapet. i had to haul a
truck tarp up onto the roof to cover the parapet to prove it. The
only place for lasers is in flexible glass

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 9:16 AM Jaime Solorza
mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Yep...they tried one from a bank building in El Paso to Juarez
back in the late 1990s...22 story building moved too much...we
ended up installing a 23Ghz link but from another location.

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 6:24 AM Brian Webster
mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com>>
wrote:

I would think now it would be easier to mount the laser in
a gyro stabilized gimbal to account for the movement. In
the 90’s that technology was not affordable. Image
stabilizing cameras exist, gyro stabilized RC helicopters
and drones are commonplace.

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com 

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
] *On Behalf Of *Chuck
McCown via AF
*Sent:* Friday, September 17, 2021 8:16 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Chuck McCown
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** interesting...we
installed several laser links in the 1990s...

I did too.  Mexico City.  E1 data rate.  High rise
buildings.  Building movement was a problem.

Sent from my iPhone



On Sep 17, 2021, at 5:12 PM, Jaime Solorza
mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com>> wrote:




https://news.google.com/articles/CBMicGh0dHBzOi8vYXJzdGVjaG5pY2EuY29tL2dhZGdldHMvMjAyMS8wOS9hbHBoYWJldHMtbGFzZXItaW50ZXJuZXQtc3lzdGVtLWhhcy1zZW50LTcwMHRiLW9mLWRhdGEtd2l0aC05OS05LXVwdGltZS_SAXZodHRwczovL2Fyc3RlY2huaWNhLmNvbS9nYWRnZXRzLzIwMjEvMDkvYWxwaGFiZXRzLWxhc2VyLWludGVybmV0LXN5c3RlbS1oYXMtc2VudC03MDB0Yi1vZi1kYXRhLXdpdGgtOTktOS11cHRpbWUvP2FtcD0x?hl=en-US=US=US%3Aen




-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] example land lease for tower construction

[Adam Moffett]

I don't have an example land lease agreement.  But these are some things 
that have come up.


24/7 access without notice
    (some landowners want a phone call when you go up, sounds 
reasonable at first, but it becomes a nuisance)


Define the path/ROW for vehicle access and put it in writing in the 
lease, and physically mark it if it's not obvious.  Use orange 
fiberglass reflective stakes or similar.
    (two different landowners have complained about techs driving 
across their hay.  In both cases there was an agreed upon path that 
could be driven on, but it's not marked and not obvious to a new 
technician.)


The lease is for the land, not what's on it.  One landowner insisted on 
more rent when more things went on the tower.  This didn't make sense to 
anyone except him, but apparently it needed to be spelled out.



I can think of a few other disputes, but they had nothing to do with 
what was in the lease but rather the fact that the landlord was a crazy 
person.



On 9/20/2021 11:00 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
A buddy is looking for an example agreement that covers all the things 
you wish you thought of the first lease.


this is for leasing ground to construct a tower on

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 900mhz 450i AP

[Adam Moffett]

I still need a couple more AP's. I guess I don't care what you do to get 
them, but cutting Ryan won't help because he already shipped his.


-Adam


On 9/14/2021 11:56 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

"cut Ryan"... check

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 3:44 PM > wrote:


You’re a stand up guy to offer such a great deal, but I’d hate to
cut Ryan out when he offered first.

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 14, 2021 4:36 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 900mhz 450i AP

find out where ryan stores his, let me know, and ill sell them to
you half price

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 3:08 PM mailto:bearma...@fourway.net>> wrote:

Hey Adam,

We have a couple of those that we could sell, I will send you
a private message about them.

Thanks,

Ryan Houin

Operations Manager

Fourway.net

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of
*dmmoff...@gmail.com 
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 14, 2021 3:40 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Cambium 900mhz 450i AP

Anyone have any 900mhz 450i AP they could part with?  Looking
for 3 or preferably 4.

-Adam

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Breakfast is served..

[Adam Moffett]

I love that coffee mug

On 9/14/2021 9:23 AM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
Aligning a 60Ghz LR for AMCC later this morning...so a good breakfast 
was required..


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: What do all those big tech employees do?

[Adam Moffett]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4OvQIGDg4I


On 9/13/2021 12:43 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
I'm always hearing about the 1000's of people that Big Tech employs, 
Google/Facebook/Amazon  what do all those people actually do?  We know 
they're not doing support, just look at Forums or NANOG with the 
number of providers having unresolved GeoIssues.  I had a geo ticket 
open with YoutubeTV for over a year when they decided to just close it 
since it was messing up their ticket closure numbers.


The Chrome team is probably what, about 6 guys?  There's their little 
android thing too, but still 1000 people on that team?


OK, Amazon actually has stores and warehouses to run, but aren't they 
all just contractors?


Facebook is just a Database with a fancy frontend, so not much to do 
there either.


Are the rest of the people all just doing the Ad sales?



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] extending Calix GPON via RF

[Adam Moffett]

The original request was for a product, not a Frankenstein solution.  
Hacking something together is just a natural outgrowth of any 
conversation here.


.and yeah it's harder to incorporate weird stuff into a business 
process.  If you have to do something weird it's better that it's weird 
on the backend for engineering staff than have it weird on the front end 
for customer support.



On 9/10/2021 12:51 PM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
Sure, but the alternative being discussed here is running some kind of 
duct taped together GPON/RF Frankenstein (assuming something like that 
was even technically possible, which it isn't). Arguing that a shelf 
is too expensive and an Active Ethernet deployment is too much of a 
headache makes no sense in this context.

- Jared
*Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021
*From:* "Josh Luthman" 
*To:* "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] extending Calix GPON via RF
You'd have to provision 18 customers differently than the other 1000 
which is just a headache.  A one time purchase of a shelf and 
GPON4/GPON8 is better in the long run.

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:07 AM > wrote:


If cost is an issue, why not just put an Ethernet switch on the
far side of the RF link? It's just 18 homes so any 24 port SFP
switch would do.
- Jared
*Sent:* Thursday, September 09, 2021
*From:* "Josh Luthman" mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
*To:* "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] extending Calix GPON via RF
Because a GPON4 or GPON8 card is a chunk of change.
Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 2:27 PM Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Why go to that trouble, and not just packetize it over an RF
link? Do a new GPON segment at the far end, or am I not
understanding something?

bp


On 9/8/2021 12:09 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I am sure this has been discussed before but not finding it.
I need to extend service to a small cluster of new homes
being built. About 18 homes.
Too far to get there with fiber right now. Maybe in a few
years.
So I want to extend my system up to them.  Will take a
repeater.  So need to probably haul a gig up there on
point to point.
I would prefer to be able to serve these customers with
Calix GPON.  I could put an E2 system up there and feed it
with ethernet.  But it seems someone has come up with a
way to extend an actual OLT/OIM type of signal via RF and
put it back on the fiber such that the ONU thinks it is
talking back to my E7-20 shelf at my C.O.
Does any of this sound familiar?

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] extending Calix GPON via RF

[Adam Moffett]

Is it even possible?  How wide is an optical channel?  They space them 
20nm apart, and that's gonna be around 2ghz of spacing between 
channels.  That doesn't mean the channel is 2ghz wide, but it might be 
"up to" that big and you'd need that full duplex.  I mean RFOG puts a 
whole cable TV system on one wave right?  So if they're not a full 2ghz 
channel they're still pretty big. What radio band would give you a pair 
of ginormous channels like that?



On 9/8/2021 4:57 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:
I've looked but never found such a beast.  i would love this, even for 
a few hundred meters.  Look into an E3 GPON.  Easier than a full cabinet


On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 2:10 PM Chuck McCown via AF > wrote:


I am sure this has been discussed before but not finding it.
I need to extend service to a small cluster of new homes being
built.  About 18 homes.
Too far to get there with fiber right now.  Maybe in a few years.
So I want to extend my system up to them.  Will take a repeater. 
So need to probably haul a gig up there on point to point.
I would prefer to be able to serve these customers with Calix
GPON.  I could put an E2 system up there and feed it with
ethernet.  But it seems someone has come up with a way to extend
an actual OLT/OIM type of signal via RF and put it back on the
fiber such that the ONU thinks it is talking back to my E7-20
shelf at my C.O.
Does any of this sound familiar?
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




--

Carl Peterson

*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

[Adam Moffett]

I'd be tempted to think a bad sector on the host disk.

Maybe fsck or whatever is equivalent for that file system.


On 9/5/2021 3:29 PM, Nate Burke wrote:


I just tried to copy the VMDK file to another folder on the same 
datastore, and it stopped copying at about 25GB out of the 33GB file.  
The same time that it stops on my other copy methods.  Does this mean 
the VMDK file is corrupt?  The Virtual server itself seems to be 
running fine.


On 9/3/2021 9:04 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

NFS is the only way I've found to be worthwhile for speed purposes.

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:


locally copy to USB hard drive?

On 9/2/2021 9:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
> I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0).  I'm trying
to move
> a 30GB server image from one server to another.  Trying to
download
> the VM machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets
about
> 80% done and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It
> throws an error after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer
now, but
> it's only running at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess
SCP and
> ESXi is artificially slow for some reason) so I won't know if it
> completes for another day.
>
> Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the
physical
> hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and
> never had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while I'm
trying
> to move the image files.
>

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>




-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cord labels

[Adam Moffett]

Where do you get the foam sleeves?  Panduit?

On 9/3/2021 8:58 AM, Jesse Dupont wrote:

I personally think these are the way to go. Foam sleeve around the fiber, label 
around the foam.



Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 3, 2021, at 6:46 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

I'm curious about how people label 2mm and 3mm patch cables (or 900um for that 
matter).

After a lot of evolution through labels that like to fall off or get in the 
way, our current method is to cut a section of plastic drinking straw a little 
longer than the labels.  Slit the straw lengthwise.  Then wrap that straw onto 
the cable and wrap a self laminating label around the straw.  The straw piece 
can slide around to wherever you need it to be visible, or to move it out of 
the way if it'll snag something.  The straw also gives some extra diameter so 
the label can go on lengthwise and still be readable. The outcome is very nice, 
but it's time consuming.

What other methods do we like?

I haven't tried heat shrink labels, but I'm assuming you can't get tubing big 
enough to pass an SC connector that will shrink onto a 2mm cable. Maybe I'm 
wrong.


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] fiber patch cord labels

[Adam Moffett]

I'm curious about how people label 2mm and 3mm patch cables (or 900um 
for that matter).


After a lot of evolution through labels that like to fall off or get in 
the way, our current method is to cut a section of plastic drinking 
straw a little longer than the labels.  Slit the straw lengthwise.  Then 
wrap that straw onto the cable and wrap a self laminating label around 
the straw.  The straw piece can slide around to wherever you need it to 
be visible, or to move it out of the way if it'll snag something.  The 
straw also gives some extra diameter so the label can go on lengthwise 
and still be readable. The outcome is very nice, but it's time consuming.


What other methods do we like?

I haven't tried heat shrink labels, but I'm assuming you can't get 
tubing big enough to pass an SC connector that will shrink onto a 2mm 
cable. Maybe I'm wrong.



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] resistivity of cat5

[Adam Moffett]

Are we talking about 2 different rules?  Yeah, we're supposed to ground 
cables going from outside to in.


Also the outdoor cable is only supposed to go so many feet into the 
building and then transition to an indoor cable.  Here it's 50ft.  This 
is supposedly a fire code thing, because outdoor cable doesn't have the 
same rules for smoke and flammability.  This rule is commonly ignored, 
but it's a real thing.



On 9/2/2021 12:17 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I have always been told all grounds have to go to the building common 
point ground.  So if that was farther than 20 feet then there is a 
conflict.  Secondary ground rods are a no no here.

*From:* James Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, September 2, 2021 9:01 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] resistivity of cat5

We’ve been told the code applies to tv antenna wire as well.  Anything 
that “pierces the envelope” by coming from the outside to the inside.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Thursday, September 2, 2021 9:52 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Cc:* Chuck McCown 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] resistivity of cat5

Does that include low voltage?

Sent from my iPhone



On Sep 1, 2021, at 7:18 PM, James Howard  wrote:



Is it a Wisconsin thing that you have a to have any wire that
penetrates the building “envelope” grounded within 20 feet of
penetration to meet code?   Seems like if you have to ground it
anyway within 20 feet of entry, put the POE there and then they
can have their extender wherever they want along the rest of the run.

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 4:45 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] resistivity of cat5

all but the exterior cable run of maybe 12 feet. theyre extending
their building out and putting up another building in the current LOS

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 3:43 PM James Howard 
wrote:

Just out of curiosity, if he can put a network rack at the
midpoint, how much of this is inside buildings?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 12:26 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] resistivity of cat5

thats what i suggested trying first, customer wanted the
extender, irritating

he finally has caved now and will be putting a network rack in
the midpoint and is going to place a managed switch there
instead of all this other unsupportable cobbling. Sometimes we
get a win.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 11:55 AM Adam Moffett
 wrote:

Maybe a dumb question, but has it already been tried
without the extender?

400ft is beyond 100m, but not by all that much.  It might
just work without any faffing around.

On 9/1/2021 11:16 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

I have a customer fixed on using
https://i.mt.lv/cdn/product_files/GPeRqg_190928.pdf
<https://i.mt.lv/cdn/product_files/GPeRqg_190928.pdf>
to extend his epmp f300 radio run to 400+ feet.

if im calculating this right there will be about a 10v
drop on the 24guage cat5, taking the 30v down to 20.
If it does manage to keep the radio powered i see it
burning out the poe circuit.

hes fighting me on putting the cambium PSU at the
midspan point and using his own POE to power the extender.

Ive been overruled about telling the customer no, so
its happening, but I want to make sure my math is correct

using

https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/voltage-drop-calculator.html

<https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/voltage-drop-calculator.html>

24guage, 30v, .5 amp, 400 feet shows 10v drop. but im
not sure about the resistivity field

this is a guy who runs constant latency monitoring and
initiates tickets on every blip, so i see this radio
move just becoming a nightmare with this midspan
extender in play

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>



*Total Control Panel*



Login <https://portal.reflexion.net/login?domain=litewire.net>

To: ja...@litewire.net

<https://portal.reflexion.net/address-properties?aID=242260993=litewire.net>

From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com



/You received this messag

Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

[Adam Moffett]

locally copy to USB hard drive?

On 9/2/2021 9:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0).  I'm trying to move 
a 30GB server image from one server to another.  Trying to download 
the VM machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets about 
80% done and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It 
throws an error after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer now, but 
it's only running at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess SCP and 
ESXi is artificially slow for some reason) so I won't know if it 
completes for another day.


Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the physical 
hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and 
never had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while I'm trying 
to move the image files.




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] resistivity of cat5

[Adam Moffett]

OhI assumed you were going building to building.

On 9/1/2021 5:44 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
all but the exterior cable run of maybe 12 feet. theyre extending 
their building out and putting up another building in the current LOS


On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 3:43 PM James Howard <mailto:ja...@litewire.net>> wrote:


Just out of curiosity, if he can put a network rack at the
midpoint, how much of this is inside buildings?

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 12:26 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] resistivity of cat5

thats what i suggested trying first, customer wanted the extender,
irritating

he finally has caved now and will be putting a network rack in the
midpoint and is going to place a managed switch there instead of
all this other unsupportable cobbling. Sometimes we get a win.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 11:55 AM Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Maybe a dumb question, but has it already been tried without
the extender?

400ft is beyond 100m, but not by all that much. It might just
work without any faffing around.

On 9/1/2021 11:16 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

I have a customer fixed on using
https://i.mt.lv/cdn/product_files/GPeRqg_190928.pdf
<https://i.mt.lv/cdn/product_files/GPeRqg_190928.pdf> to
extend his epmp f300 radio run to 400+ feet.

if im calculating this right there will be about a 10v
drop on the 24guage cat5, taking the 30v down to 20. If it
does manage to keep the radio powered i see it burning out
the poe circuit.

hes fighting me on putting the cambium PSU at the midspan
point and using his own POE to power the extender.

Ive been overruled about telling the customer no, so its
happening, but I want to make sure my math is correct

using
https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/voltage-drop-calculator.html
<https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/voltage-drop-calculator.html>

24guage, 30v, .5 amp, 400 feet shows 10v drop. but im
not sure about the resistivity field

this is a guy who runs constant latency monitoring and
initiates tickets on every blip, so i see this radio move
just becoming a nightmare with this midspan extender in play



-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>



*Total Control Panel*



Login <https://portal.reflexion.net/login?domain=litewire.net>

To: ja...@litewire.net

<https://portal.reflexion.net/address-properties?aID=242260993=litewire.net>

From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>



/You received this message because the domain afmug.com
<http://afmug.com> is on your allow list./

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] resistivity of cat5

[Adam Moffett]

+1
Use SS or blow ports up during thunderstorms.  Those are the only two 
options.


Chuck should open a trenchcoat to reveal an assortment of surge 
protectors inside.



On 9/1/2021 2:15 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
When he does this, just for shits connect the PSU at the beginning and 
bridge all the middle stuff and just see if it works.  I will be it 
will be just fine.
However I am certain he needs a ton of surge protectors at each end of 
all ethernet runs just sayin’

*From:* Steve Jones
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 11:26 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] resistivity of cat5
thats what i suggested trying first, customer wanted the extender, 
irritating
he finally has caved now and will be putting a network rack in the 
midpoint and is going to place a managed switch there instead of all 
this other unsupportable cobbling. Sometimes we get a win.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 11:55 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

Maybe a dumb question, but has it already been tried without the
extender?

400ft is beyond 100m, but not by all that much.  It might just
work without any faffing around.

On 9/1/2021 11:16 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

I have a customer fixed on using
https://i.mt.lv/cdn/product_files/GPeRqg_190928.pdf
<https://i.mt.lv/cdn/product_files/GPeRqg_190928.pdf> to extend
his epmp f300 radio run to 400+ feet.
if im calculating this right there will be about a 10v drop on
the 24guage cat5, taking the 30v down to 20. If it does manage to
keep the radio powered i see it burning out the poe circuit.
hes fighting me on putting the cambium PSU at the midspan point
and using his own POE to power the extender.
Ive been overruled about telling the customer no, so its
happening, but I want to make sure my math is correct
using
https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/voltage-drop-calculator.html
<https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/voltage-drop-calculator.html>
24guage, 30v, .5 amp, 400 feet shows 10v drop. but im not sure
about the resistivity field
this is a guy who runs constant latency monitoring and initiates
tickets on every blip, so i see this radio move just becoming a
nightmare with this midspan extender in play

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] resistivity of cat5

[Adam Moffett]

Maybe a dumb question, but has it already been tried without the extender?

400ft is beyond 100m, but not by all that much.  It might just work 
without any faffing around.



On 9/1/2021 11:16 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
I have a customer fixed on using 
https://i.mt.lv/cdn/product_files/GPeRqg_190928.pdf 
 to extend his 
epmp f300 radio run to 400+ feet.
if im calculating this right there will be about a 10v drop on the 
24guage cat5, taking the 30v down to 20. If it does manage to keep the 
radio powered i see it burning out the poe circuit.


hes fighting me on putting the cambium PSU at the midspan point and 
using his own POE to power the extender.


Ive been overruled about telling the customer no, so its happening, 
but I want to make sure my math is correct
using 
https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/voltage-drop-calculator.html 

24guage, 30v, .5 amp, 400 feet shows 10v drop. but im not sure about 
the resistivity field


this is a guy who runs constant latency monitoring and initiates 
tickets on every blip, so i see this radio move just becoming a 
nightmare with this midspan extender in play


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Good example Elizabeth Holmes natural voice

[Adam Moffett]

She's actually two kids in a trench coat.  That's why there are two voices.


On 8/28/2021 12:28 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

First time I have heard the natural voice.
https://youtu.be/AI_a-B6F1Eg

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] FCC and residential antennas (OTARD)

[Adam Moffett]

Property is still property.  A landlord can't tell the tenant "no 
antenna", but the landlord can say "no holes in my building."


So kind of, but no not really.



On 8/25/2021 5:24 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
Am I reading this shit right? Property owners can be forced to be 
transmit locations?


On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 4:07 PM Jacob Turner > wrote:


Yes:

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/02/25/2021-01304/fcc-modernizes-siting-rule-for-small-hub-and-relay-wireless-antennas



--
Jacob Turner






On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 12:12 PM Robert Andrews
mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:

There was a proposed modification to the FCC "blessings" for
permitting
multiple antennas on residential buildings under OTARD.  Did
that ever
go anywhere?

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Sharing internet connection between buildings

[Adam Moffett]

We put a surge protector on both ends when we did this.  Each one 
grounded to the ground rod on it's respective building.


Before we did that we'd blow switch ports with every lightning storm.  
After we did that no more blown ports.  Maybe Bill's way works too, but 
one SS or two SS is not that big a difference in cost.


Fiber with media converters would eliminate any question of how to 
ground it.  Get a 1000ft pull box of 12F drop cable and get it 
terminated.  If you have the equipment this isn't much harder than 
copper Ethernet.  If you don't have the equipment then you pay somebody 
who does.



On 8/25/2021 12:47 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
Ethernet has no ground reference. It's a differential signal. If 
you're using shielded cable, only ground one end (or neither end), and 
you'll be fine.



bp


On 8/25/2021 8:53 AM, Jay Weekley wrote:
I've got a client that needs a network line installed from their 
house to another building but they are on separate power meters.  I 
understand that running a cable between two different ground points 
is not advisable.  Is there a way around this?  A wireless link isn't 
an option at this point.




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: we gonna mum-mum-mummify yo ass!

[Adam Moffett]

So if I'm "Captain" of a 4 seat Cessna can I officiate a marriage 
between my passengers?


On 8/20/2021 8:43 AM, Mark Radabaugh wrote:
I believe you can perform marriages that are only good for the 
duration of the trip.    This presents interesting opportunities for 
mile high club initiations.


Mark

On Aug 19, 2021, at 8:07 PM, Steve Jones <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Also, as captain can I do forced marriages?

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, 2:50 PM Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:


The pump action of the wing would draw them down below the rear
empennage unless your plank was real close to the rear of the
aircraft.

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 11:07 AM Mark Radabaugh mailto:m...@amplex.net>> wrote:

Try to avoid using aircraft with aft mounted engines or
conventional horizontal stabilizers if you are going to do
that.  180 pounds of meat does bad things to engines and
airfoils.

Mark


    On Aug 17, 2021, at 10:43 AM, Adam Moffett
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On the very first step the 400mph wind is going to pull them
off the plank, so you can use a very short plank to save
weight.  Not to mention the weight of the ex-passenger and
his luggage.  Fuel economy is important.


On 8/17/2021 10:40 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

I want to become an airplane pilot so I can make unruly
passengers walk the plank

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 3:53 PM Bill Prince
mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Kind of like the vessel is a little fiefdom, and the
pilot (captain) is the supreme ruler.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 5:45 PM Chuck McCown via AF
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:

Many don’t know that legally you have to obey the
captain and crew of an aircraft.  Same as maritime
law.

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 14, 2021, at 6:14 PM, Sean Heskett
mailto:af...@zirkel.us>> wrote:


Air incidences are up more than 30x this year

Used to have 100-150 per year.

In 2021 there’s already been ~4000

and air travel is still lower than 2019

-Sean


On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 3:36 PM Bill Prince
mailto:part15...@gmail.com>>
wrote:

Turns out that (some) airlines have been using
duct tape for years now. It's more noticeable
now that almost everyone is carrying a camera.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2021/08/13/duct-tape-flight-attendant-unruly-passenger/

<https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2021/08/13/duct-tape-flight-attendant-unruly-passenger/>


    bp
    

On 8/9/2021 5:01 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:

So don't grope flight attendants. One of them
might be BA Baracus.

On 8/6/2021 4:17 PM, Bill Prince wrote:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFoXmnBuLw0
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFoXmnBuLw0>




-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>

-- 
Sean Heskett


ZIRKEL
Internet • WiFi • Phone • TV
970-871-8500 x100 - Office
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.co

Re: [AFMUG] Cell Phone Spam

[Adam Moffett]

I've had an abnormal number of them the past few days, but they're all 
the standard "You have a DHL package" or the Chinese lady.


Yeah, what you're describing sounds like a new tactic.  Like they're 
going to try to trick you into a blackmail payment or some crap.


Wasn't STIR/SHAKEN supposed to save the day?


On 8/17/2021 10:29 AM, Nate Burke wrote:
In the last 2 days, I've been getting numerous Texts and calls from 
Random 'local(surrounding area codes)' numbers.  The first was a lady 
who sent a series of nonsense texts, then called and left a voicemail 
saying how she was going to turn me into the VA for fraud.  Ok, maybe 
that was a wrong number.  Sunday I got a text saying that 'My Covid 
put someone in the ICU', But overnight last night between midnight and 
3 am, I got several calls and texts. The texts were all screenshots 
from 'peoplefinder.com' listing names and phone numbers, only one of 
them was mine.  Some of the text insinuated that my name is an alias.  
None of the calls left a voicemail.


It's just really strange.



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: fun

[Adam Moffett]

If I live 100 years it might be interesting to see how history treats 
these guys.  Lincoln barely won his elections and was widely hated, and 
yet historians often rank him among our best presidents.


Will they look back with the objective lens of hindsight and tell us 
Trump and Biden were both great presidents?  I mean the right move and 
the popular move are not often going to overlap, so maybe they'll both 
turn out to have been better than we thought.


It's hard to imagine that, but I'm trying to be charitable.

-Adam



On 8/17/2021 12:33 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
But as time goes on, you realize we had some guys in the past that 
really sucked so much less.
When you have to have your every bowel movement dissected on social 
media, you don’t get human candidates.

*From:* Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:28 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: fun

I think it was 1984 when Regan swept 49 out of 50 states, and that was 
the last time we got the president we wanted vs the one we had to 
settle for.


Everybody has thought every president since then was an idiot, except 
for the 20-30% of partisan cheerleaders on either side who always 
think their guy is the best.  Can we just agree they all suck and then 
forget about it?


On 8/17/2021 11:35 AM, Dennis Burgess wrote:


Only one worse is Biden!

**

*Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium 
ePMP Certified

*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
*Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services *
Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net 
<http://www.linktechs.net/>
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com 
<http://www.towercoverage.com>


*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Jaime Solorza
*Sent:* Saturday, August 14, 2021 11:58 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: fun

Does it matter? They are both morons

On Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 10:53 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:


Trump or the mypillow guy?

On Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 11:19 AM Bill Prince 
wrote:

Am I the onlyone who thinks he looks and acts like a doofus?

bp



On 8/14/2021 8:30 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

*From:*Bill Prince

*Sent:*Saturday, August 14, 2021 9:08 AM

*To:*af@af.afmug.com

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT: fun

bp






-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: fun

[Adam Moffett]

I think it was 1984 when Regan swept 49 out of 50 states, and that was 
the last time we got the president we wanted vs the one we had to settle 
for.


Everybody has thought every president since then was an idiot, except 
for the 20-30% of partisan cheerleaders on either side who always think 
their guy is the best.  Can we just agree they all suck and then forget 
about it?



On 8/17/2021 11:35 AM, Dennis Burgess wrote:


Only one worse is Biden!

**

*Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP 
Certified

*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
*Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services *
Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net 

Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com 



*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Jaime Solorza
*Sent:* Saturday, August 14, 2021 11:58 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: fun

Does it matter? They are both morons

On Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 10:53 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
mailto:li...@packetflux.com>> wrote:


Trump or the mypillow guy?

On Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 11:19 AM Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Am I the onlyone who thinks he looks and acts like a doofus?

bp



On 8/14/2021 8:30 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

*From:*Bill Prince

*Sent:*Saturday, August 14, 2021 9:08 AM

*To:*af@af.afmug.com 

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT: fun

bp






-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: we gonna mum-mum-mummify yo ass!

[Adam Moffett]

On the very first step the 400mph wind is going to pull them off the 
plank, so you can use a very short plank to save weight.  Not to mention 
the weight of the ex-passenger and his luggage.  Fuel economy is important.



On 8/17/2021 10:40 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
I want to become an airplane pilot so I can make unruly passengers 
walk the plank


On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 3:53 PM Bill Prince <mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Kind of like the vessel is a little fiefdom, and the pilot
(captain) is the supreme ruler.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 5:45 PM Chuck McCown via AF
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:

Many don’t know that legally you have to obey the captain and
crew of an aircraft.  Same as maritime law.

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 14, 2021, at 6:14 PM, Sean Heskett mailto:af...@zirkel.us>> wrote:


Air incidences are up more than 30x this year

Used to have 100-150 per year.

In 2021 there’s already been ~4000

and air travel is still lower than 2019

-Sean


On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 3:36 PM Bill Prince
mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Turns out that (some) airlines have been using duct tape
for years now. It's more noticeable now that almost
everyone is carrying a camera.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2021/08/13/duct-tape-flight-attendant-unruly-passenger/

<https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2021/08/13/duct-tape-flight-attendant-unruly-passenger/>


bp


    On 8/9/2021 5:01 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:

So don't grope flight attendants.  One of them might be
BA Baracus.

On 8/6/2021 4:17 PM, Bill Prince wrote:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFoXmnBuLw0
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFoXmnBuLw0>




-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>

-- 
Sean Heskett


ZIRKEL
Internet • WiFi • Phone • TV
970-871-8500 x100 - Office
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Installer Drill Bits

[Adam Moffett]

Interesting tip.

Will a torch with MAP gas get it that hot, or do you need acetylene?

On 8/10/2021 2:36 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
If someone gets a bit too hot and it loses its hardness, you can heat 
it up to cherry red, hold for a minute and then dunk in motor oil.  
Good trick for old chisels too.

*From:* Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 10, 2021 10:39 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Installer Drill Bits
i quit caring about installers having good bits the billionth time i 
told them that you dont use them on rock, and if you are using rock 
with the right bit or not you need a hammer drill, and no, your impact 
isnt a hammer drill, and your long bit goes back in the tube, not on a 
pile of gear on the floor. F those tower monkeys, let them get their 
own bits
On Tue, Aug 10, 2021 at 10:47 AM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


Aluminum can be worked with wood working tools, no problem.  I use
wood
routers, chop saws etc on aluminum all the time.
One tip I learned after ruining carpets in double wides.  Put the
drill in
reverse when drilling through carpet.

-Original Message-
From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 5:32 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Installer Drill Bits

When I did installs every day I would use the same 5/16" drill bit for
6-12 months.  I know I could have sharpened them, but it was easier to
just get another one at Lowes.

IMO drill slower so it doesn't get too hot.  When you're going through
metal set the drill on the lowest speed and use moderate
pressure.  You
want to see little flakes coming off the metal rather than dust. 
If the
metal is thick then put some oil on the bit to conduct heat away. 
WD-40
will work in a pinch, or a little can of 3-in-1 oil with the dropper
tip.  Even on wood, don't go full speed unless it's a short hole. 
When
the wood is real chewy you might have to back out and in to clear
debris
and let the tip rest.  If you're getting smoke you're trashing that
bit.  Aluminum siding is so thin I can't believe that's what ruins
your
bits.


On 8/9/2021 6:02 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
> We've been getting the installer drill bits at the local big box
store.
> The 1/4"x18" bit with the hole in the flute to hook the wire on
and pull
> back.  They are cheap, and have the lifespan to show. Drill a
couple
> aluminum siding houses and it's time for a new one. I'm looking
to get
> them higher quality ones.  They seem hard to locate at other
distributors.
> Am I calling them the wrong thing? I was searching for either
'bell hanger
> bit' or 'installer bit'  I found some on Amazon, but they are
probably
> about the same quality as the bigbox ones.
>
> I found one at Grainer that is backordered several weeks, and I
haven't
> found one at McMaster yet.  Am I calling them the wrong thing?
>

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>


-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Installer Drill Bits

[Adam Moffett]

When I did installs every day I would use the same 5/16" drill bit for 
6-12 months.  I know I could have sharpened them, but it was easier to 
just get another one at Lowes.


IMO drill slower so it doesn't get too hot.  When you're going through 
metal set the drill on the lowest speed and use moderate pressure.  You 
want to see little flakes coming off the metal rather than dust.  If the 
metal is thick then put some oil on the bit to conduct heat away.  WD-40 
will work in a pinch, or a little can of 3-in-1 oil with the dropper 
tip.  Even on wood, don't go full speed unless it's a short hole.  When 
the wood is real chewy you might have to back out and in to clear debris 
and let the tip rest.  If you're getting smoke you're trashing that 
bit.  Aluminum siding is so thin I can't believe that's what ruins your 
bits.



On 8/9/2021 6:02 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
We've been getting the installer drill bits at the local big box 
store. The 1/4"x18" bit with the hole in the flute to hook the wire on 
and pull back.  They are cheap, and have the lifespan to show. Drill a 
couple aluminum siding houses and it's time for a new one. I'm looking 
to get them higher quality ones.  They seem hard to locate at other 
distributors.  Am I calling them the wrong thing? I was searching for 
either 'bell hanger bit' or 'installer bit'  I found some on Amazon, 
but they are probably about the same quality as the bigbox ones.


I found one at Grainer that is backordered several weeks, and I 
haven't found one at McMaster yet.  Am I calling them the wrong thing?




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] My last erection...

[Adam Moffett]

Well, just so you know this is a classy joint so you can only post 
tasteful and artistic erection pics.



On 8/8/2021 12:39 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
Erected that Rohn tower last week...MDS licensed 928.-952.xxxMHz 
link for a lift station...wife and I were hiking the Rio Grande and 
adjoining canals in Upper Valley this One Fine Morning...peace


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: we gonna mum-mum-mummify yo ass!

[Adam Moffett]

So don't grope flight attendants.  One of them might be BA Baracus.

On 8/6/2021 4:17 PM, Bill Prince wrote:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFoXmnBuLw0




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Customer wants a SLA

[Adam Moffett]

Nobody promises 4 hour to /repair/.  Maybe 4 hours to have people 
actively on site and working on it, and probably phrased as 4 hour 
/response/.


An SLA shouldn't frighten anyone.  It's not saying nothing bad will ever 
happen, it's just a written commitment to what you'll try to do for them 
and then a credit for them if you don't meet your commitment.
My advice is write it to codify whatever your company would have done 
for them anyway.  If it's likely that your staff will respond within 4 
hours then you don't need to be afraid to promise that.



On 8/3/2021 11:24 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:

I  have  a  customer  that wants a SLA.  Believe it or not this is the
first  time  in  10  years  we have been asked for a SLA.  Anyone have
something they want to share.

They  are  asking  for  a  time to repair of 4 hours which seems a bit
excessive   to  me.   That will be fine during business hours, but I'm
thinking that number may need to go up during non-business hours.

If I'm giving them a SLA, I want to make sure their
is  wording  about  how  much  they will be charged if we have to do a
truck  roll  to  fix  one of their issues.  Like plugging their router
back in the wall.

On  the plus side, they are only 15 minutes from both my house and the
office.  So, if the shit hits the fan, we can get someone there quickly.


--

Thanks,
  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Building a CO

[Adam Moffett]

Well I'm just sayin for $50k/each I could quit this "Network 
Engineering" crap and go build tower shelters instead and I'd do just fine.



On 7/31/2021 11:42 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

In my opinion, there are few good reasons for building new.
https://usedshelter.com/telecom-shelters/?_ga=2.233259614.1766407811.1627746064-1553652512.1627746064 
<https://usedshelter.com/telecom-shelters/?_ga=2.233259614.1766407811.1627746064-1553652512.1627746064>

*From:* Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 30, 2021 8:28 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Building a CO

Christ, I could build a pretty badass shelter for $50k.

On 7/30/2021 2:14 PM, Daniel White wrote:
The listing says the HVAC units have been replaced.  So at least they 
are not 23 years old :-)


New those shelters are $40k-$50k I think

photograph  
Daniel White
Co-Founder
phone:+1 (702) 470-2770
direct:+1 (702) 470-2766


Josh Luthman
July 30, 2021 at 07:59
Probably about the same.  But built in 2021 versus 1998.  Just think 
about supporting those 23 year old HVAC systems and paying that bill 
every month.  Now think about spending an extra $2500 for modern ones.

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373



TJ Trout
July 29, 2021 at 17:06
Dual HVAC + 200a electric, could you really build that cheaper?



Josh Luthman
July 29, 2021 at 12:55
16k for a 1998 building...woof...
Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373



Daniel White
July 28, 2021 at 14:25
A tower shelter bolted to a concrete pad is exactly what many 
companies use.  There really isn't any difference between that and a 
structure built on site to the same spec.  Usually they are prefab 
concrete.


These are the design criteria Fiberbond builds to for instance - 
https://www.fibrebond.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Concrete-Generic-Specifications-2016.pdf


https://www.fibrebond.com/markets/telecom/

Used one for sale - 
https://telepp.com/product/11-5x22-fibrebond-concrete-shelter/


Chris Fabien
July 28, 2021 at 07:39
We need to upgrade a roadside FTTH cabinet to a small building. I've
never started from scratch before. It will house maybe 2 racks of
equipment. I'm thinking 10x15 or 10x20 footprint. I know a used tower
shelter is an option but I'm leaning towards a real building, maybe
concrete for tornado resistance.

Probably two small Mini Splits for cooling. Power, I'm not sure,
probably dual 48v system although we may have some 120 equipment.
Propane backup generator or course. Probably needs some propane heat
also for winter in Michigan but maybe I could just run the right mini
split and some electric heat for super cold days.

Interested in any other ideas and what stuff do I need to consider
that's not even on my radar.

Thanks,
Chris






--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Building a CO

[Adam Moffett]

Christ, I could build a pretty badass shelter for $50k.

On 7/30/2021 2:14 PM, Daniel White wrote:
The listing says the HVAC units have been replaced.  So at least they 
are not 23 years old :-)


New those shelters are $40k-$50k I think

photograph  
Daniel White
Co-Founder
phone: +1 (702) 470-2770
direct:+1 (702) 470-2766


Josh Luthman 
July 30, 2021 at 07:59
Probably about the same.  But built in 2021 versus 1998.  Just think 
about supporting those 23 year old HVAC systems and paying that bill 
every month.  Now think about spending an extra $2500 for modern ones.


Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373




TJ Trout 
July 29, 2021 at 17:06
Dual HVAC + 200a electric, could you really build that cheaper?



Josh Luthman 
July 29, 2021 at 12:55
16k for a 1998 building...woof...

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373




Daniel White 
July 28, 2021 at 14:25
A tower shelter bolted to a concrete pad is exactly what many 
companies use.  There really isn't any difference between that and a 
structure built on site to the same spec. Usually they are prefab 
concrete.


These are the design criteria Fiberbond builds to for instance - 
https://www.fibrebond.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Concrete-Generic-Specifications-2016.pdf


https://www.fibrebond.com/markets/telecom/

Used one for sale - 
https://telepp.com/product/11-5x22-fibrebond-concrete-shelter/


Chris Fabien 
July 28, 2021 at 07:39
We need to upgrade a roadside FTTH cabinet to a small building. I've
never started from scratch before. It will house maybe 2 racks of
equipment. I'm thinking 10x15 or 10x20 footprint. I know a used tower
shelter is an option but I'm leaning towards a real building, maybe
concrete for tornado resistance.

Probably two small Mini Splits for cooling. Power, I'm not sure,
probably dual 48v system although we may have some 120 equipment.
Propane backup generator or course. Probably needs some propane heat
also for winter in Michigan but maybe I could just run the right mini
split and some electric heat for super cold days.

Interested in any other ideas and what stuff do I need to consider
that's not even on my radar.

Thanks,
Chris




-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] venting - port 443

[Adam Moffett]

Agreed.  Super annoying.

The whole point is to transport the customer's traffic, so why do they 
jump to the conclusion that we're blocking anything at all?



On 7/28/2021 10:57 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:

Why  is  it  whenever  some  random  piece  of equipment that needs to
connect  to  a  server  securely  doesn't  work,  it is always the ISP
blocking  port  443.  Been working with a customer, their consultant, and
the  manufacturer  on  a  CC  terminal that won't connect to the their
server  for  2  days.  Of course the standard answer is "We never have
issues  with  these  terminals, your ISP is blocking 443"  Don't these
guys  realize  that  if  I  was blocking 443, 90% of the Internet won't
work.

BTW - We had a break through this morning.  Looks like the date on the
CC terminal was set to 10/7/2018.  Hmm, that could cause an issue with
the  security  certificate.   They fixed the date and things look like
they are working.  Haven't gotten the all clear yet.

Just needed to vent...


--

Thanks,
  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Building a CO

[Adam Moffett]

Steel roofing and siding are zero maintenance and long lasting. A 
shingled roof and T111 siding are cheaper, but nobody will be there to 
tell you if it's leaking.  You'll find out when something dies.



On 7/28/2021 9:39 AM, Chris Fabien wrote:

We need to upgrade a roadside FTTH cabinet to a small building. I've
never started from scratch before. It will house maybe 2 racks of
equipment. I'm thinking 10x15 or 10x20 footprint. I know a used tower
shelter is an option but I'm leaning towards a real building, maybe
concrete for tornado resistance.

Probably two small Mini Splits for cooling.  Power, I'm not sure,
probably dual 48v system although we may have some 120 equipment.
Propane backup generator or course. Probably needs some propane heat
also for winter in Michigan but maybe I could just run the right mini
split and some electric heat for super cold days.

Interested in any other ideas and what stuff do I need to consider
that's not even on my radar.

Thanks,
Chris



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Building a CO

[Adam Moffett]

If you get an electrician be sure to tell them what spec to go by.  Just 
went through thisone engineer in the home office was insistent on 
R56 grounding.  Nobody told the electricians, so they went by a 
Telecordia spec.  I don't remember what he said GRU something something, 
but it was different and became a pissing match later.  I guess the 
electricians had a "default setting" we had to toggle.


Layout the racks in a drawing first, and make sure you're allowing room 
to get access to all sides.  Overhead cable ladder isn't too expensive 
and gives you lots of options for cable management.  Big cables can lash 
straight to it, or troughs or innerduct for smaller cables.


Make sure floor is strong enough for weight of equipment and batteries.  
If you just tell a guy to "build me a shed" you might get 2x6 joists.


"Tornado resistance" isn't a serious concern here, so IDK about that.  
The AT long lines sites all had double cinder block walls.  Two blocks 
thick all the way around.  If they have concrete coring they're probably 
dynamite resistant.



On 7/28/2021 9:39 AM, Chris Fabien wrote:

We need to upgrade a roadside FTTH cabinet to a small building. I've
never started from scratch before. It will house maybe 2 racks of
equipment. I'm thinking 10x15 or 10x20 footprint. I know a used tower
shelter is an option but I'm leaning towards a real building, maybe
concrete for tornado resistance.

Probably two small Mini Splits for cooling.  Power, I'm not sure,
probably dual 48v system although we may have some 120 equipment.
Propane backup generator or course. Probably needs some propane heat
also for winter in Michigan but maybe I could just run the right mini
split and some electric heat for super cold days.

Interested in any other ideas and what stuff do I need to consider
that's not even on my radar.

Thanks,
Chris



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] CBRS - A house of cards

[Adam Moffett]

CBRS is really annoying right now.

On some channels in some locations newly registered CBSD's start out in 
the state "Grant Suspended - IAP Pending".  IAP is a process for 
calculating interference.  It doesn't happen everywhere, but we are 
getting used to the idea if we're installing in Town X we know we'll 
have it happen.  IAP used to take 5 minutes and it was no big deal.  
Later it was taking a few hoursat that point I complained to 
Commscope and was told they were working on a solution and give it a few 
weeks.  Now a month later IAP is taking 16+ hours to complete.  So a new 
install process apparently has to include telling the customer 
everything is ready except waiting for official permission to transmit 
and we don't know how long that will take, but you might be up sometime 
tomorrow.  Total nonsense.


Yesterday an SM that had been online for 7 months suddenly went into 
"Grant Suspended - IAP Pending".  Cambium support theorized an NTP issue 
of some sort, and they had a pretty specific story about pool0.ntp.org 
having an issue.  By the way, the grant is only for 5 minutes so if your 
device's clock is off by a few minutes you can get a grant that ended in 
the past or starts in the future and either way you're broken.  So NTP 
is now a mission critical service.  I don't know if an NTP mishap really 
caused this, but it doesn't sound impossible.


To fix the broken customer, we learned experimentally that if you set 
the AP country code to "Other" that we can transmit in 3.5ghz without 
waiting for the SAS.  CnMaestro continues proxying the CBRS 
registrations for up to 3 days so the "Suspended" client eventually goes 
back to "Granted" and then you switch the AP back to "US".  Not saying 
it's ok, but the purely compliant solution is to leave the customer down 
for a day, and I don't like that either.


So yeah.a house of cards.  Don't let the table wiggle or the wind blow.


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Adam Moffett]

I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:


Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that 
folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an
FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the
paperwork clearly stated several facts.  Among them are:
 1. This is not FDA approved.

It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long time, 
but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are 
pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody 
applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's 
going to go through or not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't 
routinely show up at the airport expecting to board a plane.  Presumably 
people don't try to get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test.  
Same idea.


1.


 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. While
we likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that
this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.

99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can split 
hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but 
it clearly prevents them from dying.


1.


 1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine
isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.


I've never heard such an argument.


 1.   Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every
medicine you take has some level of side effect.   The vast
majority of medicines have such negligible side effects, that they
are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval process exists
to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects and
drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are
saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this
incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it
seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of
getting seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the
risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to be that people
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal
risk of disease and use of a drug.    Apparently we no longer do
that.   We publicly shame people into using experimental drugs.




 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding
of drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take.


It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year.


 1. We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not
all.   We have FDA approval processes for good reason.   If for
example, you were under 40 and were taking seizure control
medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an experimental
drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the
effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly
low risk of serious illness or death from the virus could turn
into a good chance of serious injury from seizure.   As far as I
know data like that is certainly not available yet.




 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have
decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?

I don't know the answer to that.  I'm not comfortable with that behavior 
either.  It goes both ways though.  Plenty of memes out there accusing 
people of being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine.



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] list dead?

[Adam Moffett]

Necromancy required to resurrect?


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] New Documentation Method

[Adam Moffett]

OMFG you guys.

Are you not entertained!? is this not why you are here!? - Angry 
Gladiator - quickmeme




On 7/15/2021 12:19 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Missing the entrance cable and AC power cable.
*From:* Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Thursday, July 15, 2021 9:35 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] New Documentation Method
Why in the world do you have multimode in there?
Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On Thu, Jul 15, 2021 at 9:25 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

VP of Engineering made a Lego model of a Nokia GPON rack. 
Impressive level of detail.

Patch panel, router, FX-16 GPON chassis, rectifier, batteries.

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] T-Mobile RF contact

[Adam Moffett]

Unplug the power.  Set up a camera with motion alerts.  When someone 
comes to check on the box you run up and intercept them.



On 7/14/2021 3:48 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:
Thanks for all your responses guys.  Really frustrating that the “big 
guys” would just ignore the rules.


Might have to use chuck’s solution lol

On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 1:08 PM Tyson Burris > wrote:


No contact information but I would say Mark is correct.
The only reason I concluded this as well is we saw some issues on
a Crown tower on one of our sectors.  Of all the sites we operate
it was only this one and we knew a brand new T-Mobile box was just
put in.

That new T-Mobile colocation was done on a tower right next to the
one we are on. (both crown towers about 10 ft apart) The idiot
crews left their rope still tied to the tower and left it.

I spoke with Crown who washed their hands of it.  I called the
T-Mobile NOC in Indy and a local number posted in their box, which
wasn't even locked.
Never did get a call.  P

Tyson Burris, President
Internet Communications Inc.
739 Commerce Dr.
Franklin, IN 46131

Office # 317-738-0320
Cell/Direct # 317-412-1540
Online: www.surfici.net 


What can ICI do for you?

Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP
Cameras - Fiber - Towers - Infrastructure.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the
addressee shown. It contains information that is
confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review,
dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by
unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly
prohibited.

-Original Message-
From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of Mark Radabaugh
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 2:52 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] T-Mobile RF contact

I  can’t prove it yet, but I’m pretty sure there a number of
mobile and iLEC’s running CBRS gear illegally.   Frontier has been
playing pretty fast and loose with the rules around here.

Mark

> On Jul 14, 2021, at 2:39 PM, Sean Heskett mailto:af...@zirkel.us>> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know how to get in touch with a T-Mobile RF engineer?
>
> Our CBRS network has been receiving heavy interference from what
we believe is a new T-Mobile site at an American tower facility.
>
> The equipment isn’t registered with the SAS and appears to be
operating in the part 90 portion of the band 3650-3700mhz as a
part 90 device and not a part 96 CBRS device.
>
> American tower has been no help other than opening a ticket.
>
> Federated is our SAS vendor and they haven’t been any help
either other than telling us it’s not in the SAS.
>
> I’ve also done an application search in the FCC auction 105
(CRBS) site, but T-mobile must have been bidding under a different
name.
>
> Any help is much appreciated,
>
> -Sean Heskett
> 970-846-8065
> --
> Sean Heskett
>
> ZIRKEL
> Internet • WiFi • Phone • TV
> 970-871-8500 x100 - Office
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com 
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--
Sean Heskett

ZIRKEL
Internet • WiFi • Phone • TV
970-871-8500 x100 - Office

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com