[BAROQUE-LUTE] "Psych=C3=A9,_The_French_Weiss"?=

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Baroque lutenists,

   Benjamin Narvey's new recording "Psyché, The French Weiss", is
   now available for preorder.

[1]Psyché

Psyché

   (BUTTON)
   You can support this recording here:

   [indiegogo.png]

   (BUTTON)

   Best wishes

   Anthony

   --

References

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   1. https://gamut-music-strings.squarespace.com/new-page-4/

   Hidden links:
   3. https://gamut-music-strings.squarespace.com/new-page-4/
   4. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/psyche-the-french-weiss#/
   5. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/psyche-the-french-weiss#/


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing (corrected)

[Anthony Hind]

   Apologies for the message that shot off (my computer has a mind of its
   own...)

   Thanks JarosÅaw
  Whereas professional loaded bass users were forced to look for
   reliable replacements (experimenting with Gimped, pure gut, ropes or
   otherwise, KF etc), I was just keeping my old loaded basses going and
   rather lost contact with the bass string questio; so really had little
   to add.
   After a friend changed over to silver gimped I was considering doing
   the same, when Mimmo brought out the new synthetic ones. I did follow
   from afar what a few others were doing.
   In respect to Venices, perhaps your difference of appreciation,
   compared to Martin, could result from your using them at different
   tensions: I imagine they would not work well at the low tensions Martin
   may perhaps have tried them. Indeed I use my Venice octaves at a higher
   tension than my basses, and love them in that use.
   On the question of more or less sustain on basses, I suppose we all
   adapt by tweaking our styles and tensions to our string choices; but
   just the fact that French lutenists sought out vintage lutes, could
   according to Jakob Lindberg's experience with the Rauwolf, imply
   articulate sustain was very important to them, and so possibly also for
   their basses? perhaps ...
   Best wishes
   Anthony

   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   On samedi, février 4, 2017, 11:51 AM, JarosÅaw Lipski
   <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote:

   Hello Anthony,
   I am fine, thank you. I haven't heard from you for a while, but it's
   nice to see you on our lute list again :)
   Actually I meant KF strings. String ends have to be split (whittled if
   you like), otherwise they are so stiff that tying them would be very
   difficult. Also they wouldn't form a proper knot and initial point of
   vibration would be further away from the bridge. In general this kind
   of problem is characteristic for very stiff strings. Fortunately
   Venices  due to their rope construction are much more pliable, so there
   is no problem with attaching them at the bridge.
   Best wishes
   Jaroslaw
   > On 04 Feb 2017, at 00:20, Anthony Hind <[2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
   wrote:
   >
   > Hello Jaroslaw
   >I hope things are going well with you.
   > When you say of your Venice, "Yes, mine have split ends at the
   bridge." Do you mean you have managed to separate the ends of the twine
   and pass them separately through the bridge hole?
   > This is what Charles Besnainou does with his spring twines. This
   results probably in a lower impedance in the same way as Martin's
   whittled down KFs, I would suppose?
   > Best wishes
   > Anthony
   >
   >
   > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone <[3]https://yho.com/footer0>
   >
   > Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 4:45 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski
   <[4]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl <mailto:[5]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>> a écrit :
   >
   > Martin,
   >
   > > When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
   >
   > I tried both thicker and thinner Aquilla Venice ropes and even on 4th
   course they sound brighter than plain gut IMHO. But, this discussion
   only shows how relative our sound perception is.
   > >
   > > For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
   will not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th
   course.
   > >
   >
   > I am using 1.60 on 11th course and it works fine for me. But again
   it's a matter of taste.
   >
   > > Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of
   the bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
   probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
   bridge.
   > >
   >
   > Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge.
   >
   > Best
   >
   > Jaroslaw
   >
   >
   > > Martin
   > >
   > > On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
   > >> Mimmo,
   > >>
   > >>> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut?
   I have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped
   string was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins'
   twisted like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
   > >> Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They
   are brighter than plain gut
   > >>
   > >>> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
   > >> I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs
   have sho

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Apology computer problem ignore message svp

[Anthony Hind]

   Having problems with my messages please ignore
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
   --

References

   1. https://yho.com/footer0


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque_Lute_Stringing?=

[Anthony Hind]

   Thanks JarosÅaw

  Whereas professional loaded basses users were forced to look for
   reliable replacements (experimenting Gimped, pure gut, ropes or
   otherwise), I was just keeping my old loaded basses going and lost
   contact with the various As an ex-phonetician factors in sound
   production, the various bass string hypotheses do interest me, but as a
   complete lutenist amateur amateur thought I could just keep my old
   Venice loaded going, swapping worn ones for new old stock early HT gut
   loaded. While Professionals, I knew, needing good repeatable stringing
   experimented with Gimped, pure gut (ropes or HT), or KF basses, I kept
   putting off the inevitable. A friend successfully swapped his loaded to
   Dan Larson's silver Gimped, and then I "gave in" and was just about to
   try a set myself, when Mimmo brought out his new synthetic loaded, and
   of course I had to try them (my Gimped still in my lute case). So for a
   time just a bystander while others experimented.

   Had the Gimped not worked for me I would have tried Venice basses (as
   Ed Martin reported successfully using pure Pistoys), but thought the
   silver Gimped would work better with my set up (I listened with
   interest to Dan L.'s recordings of lutes using either pure Pistoys or
   Gimped basses).  I was thinking about all this, but just didn't get
   round to doing anything about it. I did follow recent debates on the
   French list concerning the KF whittled down and used at low tensions,
   and also a recent article by Charles Besnainou on his air core basses
   (proving the wealth of different experiments on lute basses of which I
   have been partly aware, so not completely out of things).

   In respect to Venices, perhaps your differenceh of appreciation,
   compared to Martin, could result from your using them at different
   tensions: I imagine they would not work well at the low tensions Martin
   may perhaps have tried them. Indeed I use my Venice octaves at a higher
   tension than my , basses, and love them in that use.

   On the question of more or less sustain on basses, I suppose we all
   adapt by tweaking our styles and tensions to our string choices; but
   just the fact that French lutenists sought out vintage lutes, could
   according to Jakob Lindberg's experience with the Rauwolf, imply
   articulate sustain was very important to them, and so possibly also for
   their basses? perhaps ...

   Best wishes

   Anthony

   Le samedi, février 4, 2017, 11:49 AM, JarosÅaw Lipski
   <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> a écrit :

   Hello Anthony,
   I am fine, thank you. I haven't heard from you for a while, but it's
   nice to see you on our lute list again :)
   Actually I meant KF strings. String ends have to be split (whittled if
   you like), otherwise they are so stiff that tying them would be very
   difficult. Also they wouldn't form a proper knot and initial point of
   vibration would be further away from the bridge. In general this kind
   of problem is characteristic for very stiff strings. Fortunately
   Venices  due to their rope construction are much more pliable, so there
   is no problem with attaching them at the bridge.
   Best wishes
   Jaroslaw
   > On 04 Feb 2017, at 00:20, Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote:
   >
   > Hello Jaroslaw
   >I hope things are going well with you.
   > When you say of your Venice, "Yes, mine have split ends at the
   bridge." Do you mean you have managed to separate the ends of the twine
   and pass them separately through the bridge hole?
   > This is what Charles Besnainou does with his spring twines. This
   results probably in a lower impedance in the same way as Martin's
   whittled down KFs, I would suppose?
   > Best wishes
   > Anthony
   >
   >
   > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone <[1]https://yho.com/footer0>
   >
   > Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 4:45 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski
   <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl <mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>> a écrit :
   >
   > Martin,
   >
   > > When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
   >
   > I tried both thicker and thinner Aquilla Venice ropes and even on 4th
   course they sound brighter than plain gut IMHO. But, this discussion
   only shows how relative our sound perception is.
   > >
   > > For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
   will not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th
   course.
   > >
   >
   > I am using 1.60 on 11th course and it works fine for me. But again
   it's a matter of taste.
   >
   > > Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning the

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Anthony Hind]

   I don't think I disagree Martyn, you say "Martin's practice of thinning
   at the bridge is probably  to allow the string there to vibrate around
   a clean take off point thus minimising frequency absorption (ie
   damping)", I have used the expression "lowering impedance", ie
   minimising resistance to vibration, or as you prefer, "minimising
   damping" (I was only referring to this marginal effect of whittling
   down) and not suggesting the characteristics of the string as whole are
   not more important.

   I was actually thinking that whittling down a KF string had a similar
   effect to passing only one element of a twine through the bridge hole,
   as Charles Besnainou does with his air core "polyethylene" (or similar)
   twine strings. Of course it is the air core structure that makes that
   string exceptionally low impedance, the passing of only one element of
   the twine through the bridge just further lowers the impedance.
   Similarly the use of a relatively high density KF string should reduce
   impedance compared to a lower density HT gut diapason, the whittling
   down further lowers resistance (or damping) I would not contest that.

   Always a pleasure to discuss these string issues with you,

   Best wishes

   Anthony

   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le samedi, février 4, 2017, 10:05 AM, Martyn Hodgson
   <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> a écrit :

 Thinning of a string will, of course, affect its flexibility where
   the
 thinning occurs but the state of the remainder of the string (ie the
 vast majority of it) remains unchanged and it is this which
   principally
 produces the sound and thus the quality. As remarked earlier,
   thinning
 at the bridge does have a benefit of reducing loss at this point by
 making a more focused take off point rather than one where the string
 can move significantly in the shallower groove produced by a thicker
 string.
 Thus, as we might expect and, indeed, experience the material
 make-up of the totality of the string is what largely produces the
 sound we hear - hence, for example, why loaded gut produces a more
 satisfactory bass than plain gut.
 regards
 Martyn
   ______
 From: Anthony Hind <[2]agno3ph...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: Martyn Hodgson <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; Martin Shepherd
 <[4]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>; "[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
 <[6]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 20:45
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE]
   Baroque
 Lute Stringing
   Apologies for allowing the incomplete message to shoot forth
   Dear Martyn
 I tend to see methods for reducing the inharmonicity of a
 string
   as simply ways of lowering its impedance to bending while
   maintaining
   its weight: either a) by increasing its elasticity or b) by
   improving
   its flexibility (bendability) through keeping it as thin as
   possible
   for the same weight (particularly near the fixed points from which
   it
   moves). I see loading and thinning at the bridge as similar
   processes
   of type b; while i agree there are many other factors which also
 effect
   the way a string resonates.
   Of course these are merely layman's  weak metaphors for which I
   also
   apologise.
   Best wishes
   Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
   Le vendredi, fà ©vrier 3, 2017, 4:52 PM, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> a à ©crit :
   Dear Anthony,
   I may well have misunderstood the point you make
   'and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly  to
   loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material'
   - surely the physical characteristics of a string largely determine
 the
   sound - else why bother?
   Martin's practice of thinning at the bridge is probably  to allow
   the
   string there to vibrate around a clean take off point thus
   minimising
   frequency absorption (ie damping) and, as Martin said, to avoid
   the
   thickish string buzzing against the bridge.  This is not, of
   course,
 to
   say that the rest of the physical characteristics of the string are
   immaterial! The characteristics of the string and hence sound are
   determined by the totality of the vibrating length and thus the
   material, its dimensions its elasticity, stiffness, etc. Otherwise
 one
   might as well make a string out of anything and it would sound the
 same
   if the bridge thinning were identical ..
   regards
   Martyn

   __________
   From: Martin Shepherd <[2]

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Anthony Hind]

   Hello Jaroslaw

   I hope things are going well with you.

   When you say of your Venice, "Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge."
   Do you mean you have managed to separate the ends of the twine and pass
   them separately through the bridge hole?

   This is what Charles Besnainou does with his spring twines. This
   results probably in a lower impedance in the same way as Martin's
   whittled down KFs, I would suppose?

   Best wishes

   Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 4:45 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski
    a écrit :

   Martin,
   > When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
   I tried both thicker and thinner Aquilla Venice ropes and even on 4th
   course they sound brighter than plain gut IMHO. But, this discussion
   only shows how relative our sound perception is.
   >
   > For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
   will not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th
   course.
   >
   I am using 1.60 on 11th course and it works fine for me. But again it's
   a matter of taste.
   > Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of
   the bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
   probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
   bridge.
   >
   Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge.
   Best
   Jaroslaw
   > Martin
   >
   > On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
   >> Mimmo,
   >>
   >>> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I
   have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string
   was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
   like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
   >> Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are
   brighter than plain gut
   >>
   >>> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
   >> I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs
   have shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound
   IMO. KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on
   diapasons. CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer
   than guts) and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity
   make them work only on instruments with higher than normal action and
   wide string spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
   >>
   >>> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
   >>> At present the second option is the winner!
   >> Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you
   aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would
   be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little
   bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would
   probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question will
   depend on whom you'll ask.
   >> All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you
   would have to take into consideration your business strategy.
   >> Best
   >> Ciao
   >>
   >> Jaroslaw
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>> ciao to all
   >>> Mimmo
   >>>
   >>> -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
   >>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
   >>> To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
   >>> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   >>>
   >>> Thanks, Mimmo.
   >>>
   >>> I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
   >>> strings thinner than .80mm.
   >>>
   >>> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In
   the
   >>> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of
   the
   >>> same size, presumably because of internal friction between the
   strands
   >>> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries
   me is
   >>> that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
   >>> stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
   >>> strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping
   effects.
   >>> I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
   >>> elastic would work well.
   >>>
   >>> I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide
   >>> better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.
   >>>
   >>> Best to all,
   >>>
   >>> Martin
   >>>
   >>> On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
    Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.
   
    actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded
   using also 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Anthony Hind]

   Apologies for allowing the incomplete message to shoot forth

   Dear Martyn
 I tend to see methods for reducing the inharmonicity of a string
   as simply ways of lowering its impedance to bending while maintaining
   its weight: either a) by increasing its elasticity or b) by improving
   its flexibility (bendability) through keeping it as thin as possible
   for the same weight (particularly near the fixed points from which it
   moves). I see loading and thinning at the bridge as similar processes
   of type b; while i agree there are many other factors which also effect
   the way a string resonates.
   Of course these are merely layman's  weak metaphors for which I also
   apologise.
   Best wishes
   Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 4:52 PM, Martyn Hodgson
   <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> a écrit :

   Dear Anthony,
   I may well have misunderstood the point you make
   'and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly  to
   loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material'
   - surely the physical characteristics of a string largely determine the
   sound - else why bother?
   Martin's practice of thinning at the bridge is probably  to allow the
   string there to vibrate around a clean take off point thus minimising
   frequency absorption (ie damping) and, as Martin said, to avoid  the
   thickish string buzzing against the bridge.  This is not, of course, to
   say that the rest of the physical characteristics of the string are
   immaterial! The characteristics of the string and hence sound are
   determined by the totality of the vibrating length and thus the
   material, its dimensions its elasticity, stiffness, etc. Otherwise  one
   might as well make a string out of anything and it would sound the same
   if the bridge thinning were identical ..
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   To: Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; JarosÅaw Lipski
   <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>; "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 15:35
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing
 Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the strings in
 question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
 problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if it
 could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
 something to be said for thinning them where they go through the hole
 in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
 easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
 Martin
 On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:
   By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
   diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish
   loaded
   string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing
   through
   the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving
   similarly
   to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same
   material
   (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string
   psses
   over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
   also thin it at the nut?
 Best wishes
 Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
   [2]<[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> a écrit :
 Just to explain:
 When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking
 only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
 For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
 will
 not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff
 to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger
 than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
 Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where
 they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the
 bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
 probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
 bridge.
 Martin
 On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
 > Mimmo,
 >
 >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut?
   I
 have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped
   string
 was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
 like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
 > Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are
 brighter than plain gut
 >
 >> I would like to b

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Martyn

 I tend to see reducing inharmonicity of a string as lowering its
   impedance to bending while maintaining its weight.
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 4:52 PM, Martyn Hodgson
   <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> a écrit :

   Dear Anthony,
   I may well have misunderstood the point you make
   'and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly  to
   loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material'
   - surely the physical characteristics of a string largely determine the
   sound - else why bother?
   Martin's practice of thinning at the bridge is probably  to allow the
   string there to vibrate around a clean take off point thus minimising
   frequency absorption (ie damping) and, as Martin said, to avoid  the
   thickish string buzzing against the bridge.  This is not, of course, to
   say that the rest of the physical characteristics of the string are
   immaterial! The characteristics of the string and hence sound are
   determined by the totality of the vibrating length and thus the
   material, its dimensions its elasticity, stiffness, etc. Otherwise  one
   might as well make a string out of anything and it would sound the same
   if the bridge thinning were identical ..
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   To: Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; JarosÅaw Lipski
   <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>; "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 15:35
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing
 Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the strings in
 question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
 problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if it
 could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
 something to be said for thinning them where they go through the hole
 in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
 easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
 Martin
 On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:
   By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
   diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish
   loaded
   string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing
   through
   the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving
   similarly
   to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same
   material
   (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string
   psses
   over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
   also thin it at the nut?
 Best wishes
 Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
   [2]<[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> a écrit :
 Just to explain:
 When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking
 only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
 For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
 will
 not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff
 to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger
 than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
 Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where
 they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the
 bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
 probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
 bridge.
 Martin
 On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
 > Mimmo,
 >
 >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut?
   I
 have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped
   string
 was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
 like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
 > Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are
 brighter than plain gut
 >
 >> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
 > I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs
   have
 shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound IMO.
 KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on
   diapasons.
 CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts)
 and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them
 work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide
   string
 spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
 >
 >> Heck, guys, what t

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Anthony Hind]

   By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
   diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish loaded
   string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing through
   the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly to
   loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material
   (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string psses
   over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
   also thin it at the nut?

   Best wishes

   Anthony

   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
    a écrit :

   Just to explain:
   When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was talking
   only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
   For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
   will
   not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and stiff
   to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing larger
   than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
   Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them where
   they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the
   bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
   probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
   bridge.
   Martin
   On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
   > Mimmo,
   >
   >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I
   have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string
   was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
   like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
   > Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are
   brighter than plain gut
   >
   >> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
   > I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have
   shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound IMO.
   KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on diapasons.
   CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts)
   and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them
   work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide string
   spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
   >
   >> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
   >> At present the second option is the winner!
   > Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you
   aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would
   be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little
   bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would
   probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question will
   depend on whom you'll ask.
   > All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you
   would have to take into consideration your business strategy.
   > Best
   > Ciao
   >
   > Jaroslaw
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >> ciao to all
   >> Mimmo
   >>
   >> -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
   >> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
   >> To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
   >> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   >>
   >> Thanks, Mimmo.
   >>
   >> I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
   >> strings thinner than .80mm.
   >>
   >> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In
   the
   >> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of
   the
   >> same size, presumably because of internal friction between the
   strands
   >> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me
   is
   >> that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
   >> stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
   >> strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping
   effects.
   >> I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
   >> elastic would work well.
   >>
   >> I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide
   >> better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.
   >>
   >> Best to all,
   >>
   >> Martin
   >>
   >> On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
   >>> Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.
   >>>
   >>> actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded
   using also a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the
   tonl trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF
   or CDs etc etc.
   >>> I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD
   types however.
   >>> In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d
   minor Lutes.
   >>> I have 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Anthony Hind]

   Personally I love the singing sustain of the ones I have on my lute
   now, but for many lutenists the elasticity is difficult to deal with,
   both in terms of how it calls for a change in playing technique, and
   also how they tend to stick on the nut. However, I also loved my loaded
   Venice gut, so the second option is also alright with me. Trueness of
   string is of course necessary, but possibly difficult to predict. I
   suppose it may be difficult to obtain even or homogenous mixtures of
   polymer and copper, sometimes just necessary to select the best ones?
   But I suppose the traditional testing between stretched hands (or
   similar) won't work for very elastic strings? I may have been very
   lucky as all mine were very true.

   Best wishes

   Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 8:50 AM, Rob MacKillop
    a écrit :

   Second option for me.
   Rob MacKillop
   > On 3 Feb 2017, at 07:29, Mimmo Peruffo <[2]mperu...@aquilacorde.com>
   wrote:
   >
   >  Thank you for the suggestion Arto.
   >  Unfortunately i cannot do it
   >  I already image how confuse the thing will be with the customers.
   >  This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly I do not
   >  like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers already
   stressed
   >  by me!
   >
   >  I should do a choice and in fast time: is it better a more elastic
   >  string like these are (whith problems related to the fact that maybe
   >  stretch tooo much and that the sound is too bright) or it is better
   to
   >  switch to a less elastic plastic support with the advantage that it
   >  stretch less, the sound is darker and with less sustain?
   >  Hard to do the choice: both solutions are ok; i already tried the
   >  second option that is similar to the loaded gut strings
   >  Even Anthony Bailes suggested me the second option.
   >
   >  Strings or not to strings? this is the question
   >
   >  ah ah
   >  (my poor english at work)
   >  Ciao
   >  Mimmo
   >
   >  ps
   >  which are your suggestion guys?
   >
   >
   >
   >  -Messaggio originale-
   >  From: Arto Wikla
   >  Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:46 PM
   >  To: Mimmo Peruffo ; [3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   >
   >  Dear Mimmo,
   >
   >  if you decide to make the loaded nylgut strings (CD) less elastic, I
   >  hope (and wish and urge ;-) ) that you keep also the original
   elastic
   >  version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on my Harz
   >  arclute, great stuff.
   >
   >  And big thanks for your invaluable work!
   >
   >  Arto
   >
   >>  On 02/02/17 14:03, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
   >> Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these stiffer
   >  ones.
   >> at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made
   of
   >  gut.
   >> I will do some samples in advance.
   >> Mimmo
   >
   >
   >
   >  To get on or off this list see list information at
   >  [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >  --
   >

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References

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   2. javascript:return
   3. javascript:return
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Anthony Hind]

   Presumably FB was talking of dark diapasons and not bass courses
   diapasons with their octaves? Modern wire wounds are very bright and
   there is little need for strong octaves. Personally when using Venice
   gut loaded that were quite flexible and dark, I moved to higher tension
   Venice octaves to compensate the slightly flappy quality of loaded
   basses (which at first had tended to rattle slightly). This works very
   well, the bass initially gives way to the thumb pressure, but the
   higher tension octave gives a delayed resistance (all tendency to
   rattle disappeared). I preferred this to going to a thicker higher
   tension loaded bass which could sometimes sound slightly over damped. I
   have kept these octaves with the new synthetic basses, and the few
   lutenists who have tried my lute found it sounded well with this
   configuration (how well this corresponds to evidence of historic
   stringing, I am not sure. Although where indicated that octaves should
   be played without basses, my octaves have a good tuneful presence,
   which I doubt would be the case with lower tension ones; but along with
   FB some might argue 'basses should be basses', whereas mine have a
   slightly singing Meanes presence to them).

   In the past, I have used first generation stiff HT loaded gut and
   second generation flexible Venice loaded gut and now the flexible
   synthetic ones, and after a time and some tweaking, managed with each
   type. I think the playing style alters somewhat to adapt to stringing
   and tensions, but I can imagine that those used to very stiff
   wirewounds might take some time to adapt. On the other hand, if a
   flexible bass is false, no increased tension of the octave will prevent
   it from rattling.
   Regards
   Anthony

   Le jeudi, février 2, 2017, 10:53 AM, Mimmo Peruffo
    a écrit :

   The Well, Tony Bailes mailed me that:
   Writing in 1629 Francis Bacon stresses that low strings should produce
   a
bass sound: "for we see, that in one of the lower strings of a lute,
   there
   When soundeth not the sound of the treble, nor any mixt sound , but
   onely the
   sound of the base."
   Mimmo
   ps: I can made them less stretchly using a different elastomer. the
   problem
   is that they became a bit darker in the sound. Any suggestion? I am
   ready to
   start with the big batch. I am a bit worry about those that like that
   they
   are in some way still close to the wound strings
   -Messaggio originale-
   From: Martin Shepherd
   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:26 AM
   To: Mimmo ; Matthew Daillie
   Cc: [1]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   Dear All,
   If we're really interested in how lutes might have been strung
   historically, I think it's important to take the historical evidence
   (very little of it, I know) as a starting point, rather than the habits
   of modern players using modern strings.
   We have a lot of iconographic evidence (plus the evidence from
   measuring
   bridge holes) that bass strings were rather thin - so the conclusion
   that they were more dense than a plain gut string seems pretty well
   inescapable.
   Having said that, the tensions which modern players expect may be too
   high, for several reasons.  One is that we are accustomed to wound
   strings, which are very flexible and don't work at all well if they are
   at too low a tension.  A related problem is that modern players tend to
   play much further from the bridge than their historical counterparts.
   Another issue is that we have tended to assume roughly equal tension
   across all the strings, so we have not experimented much with a
   tapering
   of tension as we go down into the bass.  One interesting aspect of the
   iconography is that strings get progressively thicker as they go down
   into the bass, but not as much as one would expect if the tensions were
   equal.  To make this concrete, for a descent of an octave (maintaining
   equal tension) the string should double in diameter, so the 6th course
   on a 6c lute should be nearly twice the diameter of the 4th.
   On the subject of string diameters, Mimmo estimates the thinnest string
   which could have been made in the past as .42-.44mm. Single top strings
   will need to be a higher tension than the individual strings of a
   course, but even so it is more or less inevitable that the tension must
   be tapered to some degree, otherwise bass strings (and tension) would
   be
   enormous.  Mimmo has recently written that equal tension is different
   from equal "feel", and I agree with his suggestion that (in order to
   maintain equal feel) thinner strings should therefore be at a higher
   tension than thicker ones.  I have done this as a matter of instinct
   for
   many years - using a higher tension on the second course than on the
   third, for example.  As an aside, I note that most of us 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain

[Anthony Hind]

   Very relevant comparison Rob, and I also notice that on my 11C lute,
   the sustain of the new Aquila basses is almost identical to that of my
   Venice octaves (which presumably would not be the case with the
   Savarez. I imagine they would drone on longer if not stopped); but
   again if I pluck courses D10 and d2 together, they also have the same
   sustain. I think this shows how well the new basses work together with
   the other strings, rather than against them, as with wirewounds.
   I also find that they are fairly close to my Venice loaded basses
   (rather than the stiffer first generation HT loaded), but with better
   resonance patterns, and even more elasticity. I did have to alter my
   playing slightly to allow for this. Those coming from stiffer
   wirewounds may have more adapting to do, but will probably find this
   worthwhile; yet these very elastic basses may not work quite so well
   for low tension players, who could have adapted their technique to
   stiffer pure gut (HT or roped), Gimped, or even KF harp strings. It
   might be interesting to hear from players coming from different playing
   styles.
   Best regards
   Anthony

   Le 8 janv. 2017 à 16:59, Rob MacKillop <[1]robmackil...@gmail.com> a
   écrit :

 Here's a very short video comparing the sustain time of a new Aquila
 Loaded Nylgut string and a Savarez copper-wound nylon-silk core bass
 string.
 [1][2]https://youtu.be/8FVJMk_Xjv0
 My ears hear better than the microphone, and the useable sustain on
   the
 Aquila string is 4 seconds, while the Savarez is a long 8 seconds.
 With the Savarez, you will be required to stop pretty much every note
 you play in the bass. With the Aquila, less so.
 The Aquila do remind me of gut basses. I used to have an 11c
   completely
 strung in gut, and these loaded nylgut strings are very, very close.
 On the other hand...Mersenne says his basses sustain for almost 20
 seconds!!!
 I'll stick with the Aquila.
 Rob
 --
   References
 1. [3]https://youtu.be/8FVJMk_Xjv0
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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   2. https://youtu.be/8FVJMk_Xjv0
   3. https://youtu.be/8FVJMk_Xjv0
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: luth dore

[Anthony Hind]

   Yes, apparently the documents will be downloadable on the 31st of March
   Anthony

   On 16 mars 2015, at 15:14, Peter Van Dessel
   [1]peter.vandes...@gep.kuleuven.be wrote:

 Dear Anthony,

   I'd love to have a look at the Luth Dore site, but I get no reaction no
   matter what language I click!

   Regards

   Peter Van Dessel
   Oud-Heverleestraat  35
   3001  Leuven
   On 16 Mar 2015, at 14:39, Anthony Hind wrote:

 Dear lutenists
The following message has been sent to me from
   [2]leluthdore.com,
 and which may interest fellow lutenists when they consult the
   luthdore
 website
 A Worldwide Lute Revival is Underway! Find out more on Tuesday,
   March
 31 2015!
 Facebook : [1][3]https://www.facebook.com/leluthdore
 Webpage : [2][4]www.leluthdore.com
 My best regards
 Anthony
 --
   References
 1. [5]https://www.facebook.com/leluthdore
 2. [6]http://www.leluthdore.com/
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. mailto:peter.vandes...@gep.kuleuven.be
   2. http://leluthdore.com/
   3. https://www.facebook.com/leluthdore
   4. http://www.leluthdore.com/
   5. https://www.facebook.com/leluthdore
   6. http://www.leluthdore.com/
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] luth dore

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear lutenists
  The following message has been sent to me from leluthdore.com,
   and which may interest fellow lutenists when they consult the luthdore
   website
   A Worldwide Lute Revival is Underway! Find out more on Tuesday, March
   31 2015!

   Facebook : [1]https://www.facebook.com/leluthdore
   Webpage : [2]www.leluthdore.com
   My best regards
   Anthony

   --

References

   1. https://www.facebook.com/leluthdore
   2. http://www.leluthdore.com/


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: luth dore

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Peter

   I think it becomes active at the date indicated. At least that is what
   I gathered.

   Regards

   Anthony
   Sent from my iPhone

   On 16 mars 2015, at 15:14, Peter Van Dessel
   [1]peter.vandes...@gep.kuleuven.be wrote:

 Dear Anthony,

   I'd love to have a look at the Luth Dore site, but I get no reaction no
   matter what language I click!

   Regards

   Peter Van Dessel
   Oud-Heverleestraat  35
   3001  Leuven
   On 16 Mar 2015, at 14:39, Anthony Hind wrote:

 Dear lutenists
The following message has been sent to me from
   [2]leluthdore.com,
 and which may interest fellow lutenists when they consult the
   luthdore
 website
 A Worldwide Lute Revival is Underway! Find out more on Tuesday,
   March
 31 2015!
 Facebook : [1][3]https://www.facebook.com/leluthdore
 Webpage : [2][4]www.leluthdore.com
 My best regards
 Anthony
 --
   References
 1. [5]https://www.facebook.com/leluthdore
 2. [6]http://www.leluthdore.com/
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

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   2. http://leluthdore.com/
   3. https://www.facebook.com/leluthdore
   4. http://www.leluthdore.com/
   5. https://www.facebook.com/leluthdore
   6. http://www.leluthdore.com/
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Recordings of Germain Pinel and Robert de Visée.

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear lutenists
  A copy of Miguel Yisrael's latest recording les rois de
   versailles, signed by the lutenist, can now be ordered directly on his
   web site at

   [1]http://www.miguelyisrael.com/index.php/works/discography

   It focusses on the lute music of two French composers, Germain Pinel
   (whose music has rarely been recorded) and Robert de Visee.

   Best wishes for the new year

   Anthony

   --

References

   1. http://www.miguelyisrael.com/index.php/works/discography


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Concerts of French Baroque lute music

[Anthony Hind]

Further information on the French baroque lute concerts :
   1) Recital at Rowan University, march 3 at 8 pm :
   http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216
   2) Recital in Boston : booked out
   3) Recital in Philadelphia :
   http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/
   Anthony
 __

   From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com;
   To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Concerts of French Baroque lute music
   Sent: Wed, Jan 29, 2014 10:16:38 PM
 Dear lutenists
 For those who may be interested these concerts of French baroque lute
 music are announced:
 Miguel Yisrael's USA Official Tour 2014 - A The Lute of The Sun
   King
 A
 Concert 1 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Rowan University,
 New jersey, USA
 Monday, March 3th of 2014, 8 p.m. Rowan University, Glassboro, New
 Jersey, USA
 Concert 2 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Boston, USA
 Wednesday, March 5th of 2014, 8 p.m.
 Tickets sold out
 Concert 3 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Philadelphia
   Chamber
 Music Society, Philadelphia, USA
 Friday March 7th of 2014, 8 p.m.
 American Philosophical Society, Philadelphia
 Regards
 Anthony[1]
 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
 --
   References
 1. [1]http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Concert

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear lutenists
Here is a link to a baroque lute and flute duet, recorded by
   Didier Jarny and put on line by Pascale Bocquet and the SFL of a
   Baroque concert held on the 14th of April 2013 at l'Arcades Institue de
   Tours, the De Visee, Suite in G major with Anna Besson : traverso, and
   Benjamin Narvey : Baroque lute
   http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vazmwXckpFsdesktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dvaz
   mwXckpFs
   or
   http://tinyurl.com/qxxe525
   A Happy New year to all
   Anthony

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 2 new videos

[Anthony Hind]

Superb recording and performance, Ed;
wonderful to hear such sensitive playing of twin lutes strung in the same way 
in gut by the same string and lute maker and recorded with such sympathy.
Please transmit my congratulations to the whole team involved in this 
enterprise.
Regards
Anthony



Sent from my iPhone

On 3 juil. 2013, at 17:56, Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com wrote:

 Dear ones,
 
 I am announcing to the group that Thomas Walker and I have recorded 2 
 videos of the music of Vieux Gaultier.  These videos were recorded in 
 December, as a part of a new recording project entitled, courante, 
 which will be a CD of French baroque lute duets.  The audio CD was 
 recently recorded on June 22nd and 23rd, in the Sacred Heart Music 
 Center, which is the same space where this video was made.
 
 The first video listed is a chaconne in A major by Vieux Gauliter, 
 and being a solo lute piece, Gamut Music commissioned a 
 counterpartie, which was composed by Minnesoata Composer Tyler 
 Kaiser, transforming the piece into a duet.  Counterparties were 
 utilized a great deal during the times of the French Baroque Lute, 
 and we are continuing in this tradition.  This video project was 
 produced by Gamut Music, as a prelude for the CD, which is scheduled 
 be released this autumn.  It was actually a very involved production, 
 with cinema director, a few cinematographers, audio engineer, 
 etc.  We used a matching set of Frei lutes, entirely strung in pure 
 gut throughout, with no metal added to the basses (i.e. no gimped, 
 loaded, wound, etc).  The video I think captures the images and sound 
 of these gut strings, fairly true to life.  Please view it in full 
 screen, high definition to appreciate the quality of the video.
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrIYrhMljcfeature=youtu.be
 
 The 2nd video was filmed in the same session, but it was much less 
 involved, without the cinema director, and only 1 
 cinematographer.  Both parts of the Canaries are found in the Vaudry 
 de Saizenay I MS.  Once again, please view in full screen, high definition.
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ue9fQZeSPA
 
 
 We hope you will enjoy these videos.
 
 ed
 
 
 
 Edward Martin
 2817 East 2nd Street
 Duluth, Minnesota  55812
 e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
 voice:  (218) 728-1202
 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name
 http://www.myspace.com/edslute
 http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Benjamin Narvey YouTube

[Anthony Hind]

   Of course I failed to say that it was at the recent SFL meeting
   Anthony
 __

   De : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
   A : baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Envoye le : Mercredi 4 avril 2012 15h42
   Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Benjamin Narvey YouTube
 Dear Lutenists
 Here is a link to a recording made by the SFL of Benjamin
 Narvey playing Weiss and de Visee on a 70cm Warwick 13c rider Warwick
 Frei with all gut stringing : loaded Venice basses and Nick Baldock
 octaves, Meanes (except for 5c which are Venice), and Trebles.
 Obviously the YouTube recording can't do justice to Benjamin's sound,
 but it gives an idea.
 [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imHiP6bf6lE
 Regards
 Anthony
 --
   References
 Visible links
 Hidden links:
 1. [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imHiP6bf6lE
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imHiP6bf6lE
   2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imHiP6bf6lE
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Martyn
    My impression is that in the more usual case, freak historical lutes  
and theorbos are frequently adopted to accomodate the modern playing context: 
e.g. using higher pitches than historic for the type of instrument if strung in 
gut (typically for tuning to an orchestra or to a singer), a shorter 
instruments than historic (particularly for theorbos), again only possible with 
synthetic stringing; and in both cases to make life  easier for the lutenist 
(and in the extreme case single strings on a liuto forte). At least Anthony 
Bailes with this 76cm lute (and gut stringing), can't be accused of having made 
his playing easier.

About the RH position close to the bridge, this (according to the Lute new's 
report on his talk), is indeed one of the reasons for AB choosing an old lute. 
Although he is the only one to suggest this, he did say that, in his 
experience, such lutes had good sustain but were also somewhat veiled in sound 
which automatically called for a position near the bridge; the popularity of 
such lutes, he thought, might have contributed to this change to RH position 
near the bridge. (I quote, here, from memory, as this morning, I can't find my 
copy of the Lute News in question).

However, as I said above, I am neither a lute maker nor a musicologist, 
although I do feel fairly sure that no one (including AB) would have ordered a 
76cm from a lute maker in order to play this music; the string length, I 
therefore have to conclude, as you do, is not the French Baroque ideal. 
Although AB is a model for many, I doubt whether his example will be followed; 
but you have given far more thought to this issue than I have, so I will have 
to leave you the last word on this historical question, and bow to your 
judgement.

I would nevertheless, just like to add that I so wish it was sufficient to have 
a suitable lute, good strings, and correct RH position to be able to interpret 
French Baroque lute music, but as Mathias rightly says, French music is too 
tricky, although in my case I feel it worth a try.
Regards
Anthony


De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
À : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com 
Cc : baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Envoyé le : Mardi 20 mars 2012 15h06
Objet : Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: Ne 
Anthony Bailes CD


Dear Anthony,

Thank you for this.  In essence all I'm suggesting is that we should look at 
the evidence of what size and sort (eg barring) of instrument was used for a 
particular repertoire and then see what sounds result, rather than starting 
from the sort of sound we personally like and then choosing the instrument 
which makes this sound.  Clearly the first has the possibility of getting 
somewhere near what the original composers might have expected and their 
audiences heard; but the second merely reflects our own 
prejudices/pre-delictions/wishful-thinking of the sort of sound we, as 
individuals, would like to hear.  The matter is particularly pointed if the 
specification of the instrument we come up with for performing a particular 
repertoire was unknown to players at the time. This doesn't just apply to 
Anthony Bailes of course but to any player with pretensions to perform works in 
a manner reasonably close to what the original composer might have expected. 

Regarding putting 'sustain' as the feature most to be sought in this repertoire 
is, of course, simply a prejudice (prejudgement) - it might be any feature (eg 
softness, loudness, ability to articulate, lack of sustain etc).  As said, 
we ought to try and secure an instrument as close as possible to what the 
actual historic evidence indicates and base our experiments on this.  I also 
suggest, if we wish to be rigorous about this search, we should eschew other 
anachronistic techniques - such as plucking away from the bridge and up to the 
rose which has at least as big an influence on the tone produced as almost any 
other factor. Your links (email 16 March) to pictures comparing Mouton and a 
modern 11 course player is particular telling: not only in the right hand 
position and its plucking posture but also how the instrument is held - low 
down cradled in the lap, not high up resting on the right thigh as Mouton (and 
other contemporary depictions).

Finally, I'm all for experiment if it is presented as such: it's when this 
might be seem to be an accurate reflection of what the Old Ones actually did 
that I worry.

regards

Martyn




--- On Tue, 20/3/12, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: Ne 
Anthony Bailes CD
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Tuesday, 20 March, 2012, 12:52


Dear Martyn
    I must appologize for not having seen your message; I actually

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Anthony Hind]

 Perhaps, Matthias, we can at least agree that later German baroque 
lutenists,  were  indebted to the French lutenist's experimentation with 
accords nouveaux, lute types, and le style luthé which so influenced even the 
French harpsichordists. Their in depth research of the lute's sonorities makes 
their pieces studies in sound texture (as much as in melodic structure), 
tightly associated with this instrument, and  difficult to transpose. Those who 
are less sensitive to texture may indeed prefer the more overtly organised 
melodic  structure of a Weiss, or a de Visée. 

However, there is a range in French music, from the almost speaking style (as 
Arto says of Dufaut), to a more Lullian melodic style (spiked with 
dissonance): from the disolving harmonic patterns of Mouton, through Gallot 
(announcing the harmonic vocabulary of de Visée), to de Visée himself, with his 
independently structured bass lines underpinning a strongly articulated melodic 
superstructure. For some, Weiss might be the pinnacle of this progression; yet 
both Weiss, and de Visée, proclaim their debt and admiration for Gallot: de 
Visée quotes Psychée in his tombeaux du Vieux Gallot, while  Weiss' reworks 
L'Amant Malheureux, as a resounding eulogy. 

As I said in a recent SFL luth journal, in a concert in Paris, Benjamin Narvey 
underlined this evolution,  and while his strong projection and singing style 
undoubtedly favoured the cantabile of these two great masters*, de Visée and 
Weiss, his performance of the more elusive Prelude of Mouton (through his 
masterful phrasing, ornamentation and rhythm), achieved a fluidity approaching 
the gestures of a baroque dancer. Nothing seemed static, even silences 
suggested movement: musical flights abruptly suspended, but continued in the 
mind of the listener. Dissolving harmonic patterns melted into each other, the 
lute constantly ringing as new notes were struck, the resonance of the lute 
itself seems the primary focus of the composition.

Each lutenist has their own sensitivity and history which makes one composer 
work better for them than another. I understand you fascination,  Mathias, with 
pure melodic structure, to which I am not immune; but it is the eloquent 
gesture, elegance, fluidity and poise of French Baroque to which I feel most 
drawn.

However, you are  quite right that with the loss of the musical tradition this 
elusive music has become almost too difficult to interpret, even for the 
simplest pieces, so rather than attempting Gallot's Psyché, I am at present 
struggling with de Visée's slightly more melodically approachable  Tombeau du 
Vieux Gallot inspired by this piece. 
Unfortunately, even for this, it is not sufficient to have a historically 
suitable lute and excellent stringing with good clarity and sustain, to succeed.
Regards 

Anthony
*PS This is exactly the repertoire (Weiss and de Visée)that Benjamin will be 
performing in Paris this coming Sunday.



- Mail original -
De : Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de
À : baroque-lute mailing-list baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Cc : 
Envoyé le : Dimanche 18 mars 2012 0h07
Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

Dear Arto,

Thank you for your balanced views! I agree in general that there's no better
or worse in matters of taste. I hasten to add, though, that taste is a
matter of education, a matter of discerning the ways. When I look back, I
must admit that some things went wrong in the very beginning of my lute
schooling. Wrong is a strong word, I know, but that's what it looks like
from my perspective of today.

Giesbert's method does not contain French baroque music, offering but late
German baroque. Satoh's method has one piece by Gallot, but via the famous
arrangement by Weiss! The method by Michel Serdoura / Yisrael has been the
best so far IMO in that it offers very well written articles by several
authors and a wide range of music. That is the desirable width of mind that
Dagobert Bruger had already reached in 1928.

No mention, though, of other types of the instrument. The baroque lute is a
number of different lutes, rather, comprising 10c through 13c lutes,
including different types of theorboed and non-theorboed lutes, not to speak
of different tunings.

You mentioned traits like uneven and unpredictable passages, varying the
lengths of phrases, unexpected harmonies in French baroque lute music. I
share these impressions (don't particularly like them, though), but I am
suspicious that they have been provoked by circulating recordings which
helped to create this kind of common approach towards this music. I
appreciate more the ways these composers e.g. deal with their melodies.

Thank you anyway for Monsieur Dufaut's courante!

Mathias



 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
 Auftrag von Arto Wikla
 Gesendet: Samstag, 17. März 2012 19:15
 An: Anthony Hind
 Cc: Mathias Rösel; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Ed and All,
 Yesterday evening I met someone who had played Jakob Lindberg's
   Rauwolf, and he told me that it had indeed both wonderful clarity and
   sustain (as Jakob says), so that you can hear each voice, and indeed
   each course, quite separately.
   This could be the sort of quality that the French musicians were
   searching out for their new tunings (similar to what Anthony Bailes was
   hoping for with the Wengerer), and perhaps close to the quality Dan
   Larson achieved when replacing the damaged top on your previous 11c
   67cm Frei with a very hard Adirondack top. You said, The top wood is
   gorgeous, and the sound is very complex.  As many have described
   Adirondack for tops, the treble is very clear, and very strong.  I have
   never heard a new lute with such a singing treble, which makes for a
   very wonderful sound.
   http://www.mail-archive.com/baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg01536.html
   It is entirely possible that it is the hardness of the tables of the
   old lutes (similar to your Adirondack) which gives this singing
   quality.
   %
   So now, I wonder whether the Sitke Spruce on your new 11c lute is not
   even harder, and with even more of this quality?
   This must be a very interesting project  for Dan Larson, enabling both
   of you to hear the varied effects of Italian spruce (the original
   lute), Adirondack on the restoration, and now a thin piece of
   bear-claw Sitka Spruce, from Sitka, Alaska. on your new lute.
   That is as close as one can get to neutralizing other parameters so as
   to make an almost scientific comparison of the tables. Are you able to
   make judgement about this, and possibly even to record some comparison
   tracks?
   %
   Other ways of achieving hard tops might be the use of very old timber
   submerged in the great lakes.
   http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/buying_submerged_lumber
   A specialist of biochemistry at Texas, Professor Nagyvary says that
   when wood is submerged, bacteria eat away at hemicellulose and
   starchy matter in the wood, creating wood ideal for instrument
   makers.  He also provoked this hardening effect by applying Borax
   salts to table-wood; and Martyn has mentioned research application of
   oxidyzed linseed oil on tables, all with very similar results.
   %
   It may be a pity that more instruments do not appear benefitting from
   this sort of research; indeed, Stephen Gottlieb has told me that modern
   European spruce is now softer, and needs to be cut thicker (so we have
   perhaps lost something from a historical performance point of view).
   Nevertheless, my 11c lute with bear claw spruce (I don't know of what
   origin), but strung with loaded strings, did have this singing quality,
   even before, I attempted to improve on the stringing. I believe that
   even with our quite different methods and sensitivities many of us may
   be striving for similar qualities.
   %
   On the basses, I use 2.9 Kg of tension on the fundamentals _and_ the
   octaves.
  I find your string tensions very interesting. I was expecting
   you to have adopted quite low tensions to achieve thinnish Pistoy
   basses (similar to those of T. Satoh), but I see you are fairly close
   to my overall tensions (2K7 on basses and about 3K on octaves), except
   that I have slightly less bass tension. Even with loaded strings, I do
   prefer thinnish basses. However, this is just a personal preference;
   Benjamin N. has thicker basses, and he also achieves a marvellous
   singing quality.
   Fortunately, there are various ways of achieving a similar, but
   hopefully slightly different, musical result, catering for personal
   choices and taste.
   Best regards
   Anthony
 __

   De : Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com
   AEUR : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com; Edward Martin
   e...@gamutstrings.com
   Cc : baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 22h24
   Objet : Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
   Dear Anthony and all,
   You are correct, in that the table on my lute is ultra hard, being a
   thin piece of bear-claw Sitka Spruce, from Sitka, Alaska.  That
   material is seldom used in lutes, because it is so hard and dense,
   making lute rose carving very difficult.  But, the results are
   brilliant.  I have another lute, a 13 course Burkholtzer, and I have
   Pistoys also down to the 10th course, and it is also clear.  In my
   opinion, I like it better than gimped or loaded gut - that is my
   preference.
   For tension, I use a medium tension throughout.  On the basses, I use
   2.9 Kg of tension on the fundamentals _and_ the octaves.  The important
   point is that one must also use an octave at least as high in tension
   than the fundamental.  One interesting thing is the way the mathematics
   work out.  The octave always turns out always

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Ed and All
   Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by that
   Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree LPs in
   the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had the
   chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob
   Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes.
   %
I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be loth
   to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but perhaps
   the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones?
   When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner does go
   someway to gearing the peg turn.
   I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually it
   works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to
   make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps above and
   then below the desired tuning point,
   with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it does
   not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs.
   How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string maker!
   %
   Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates to the
   ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I understand
   tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has some of the
   sustain of an old lute, that helps your lute's response to your
   stringing?
   Of course, with AB's 76cm string length it wouldn't be so surprising if
   pure gut Pistoys did work well on the Wengerer lute, but if you manage
   a free sounding bass, without a hint of tubbiness, it will be quite an
   achievement for a 67cm lute in all Pistoy basses!
   %
   I had wanted to add a link to T. Satoh playing the Greiff, to compare
   with low tension stringing of an old lute. I tried to use the old links
   I have on my computer, but they all failed. I then tried to go on the
   Channel Island Classic site, and Firefox signalled warnings that the
   site had a very poor reputation. I couldn't understand how that could
   be, but fearing it might be a scam site. I stopped my attempts, which
   is a pity, as it would be interesting to compare.
   %
   You haven't said what tension you have on your basses, and your
   octaves, but would you classify it as light, medium or heavy?
   regards
   Anthony
 __

   De : Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com
   A : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com;
   baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Envoye le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 1h08
   Objet : Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
   Dear Anthony and all,
   I also very much enjoy that old recording of AB on EMI Reflexe.  A
   great, old recording.
   Your statement that (although, I imagine that with his 76cm lute pure
   gut basses should also work well) is in complete agreement with my
   recent experimentation.
   As you know, I have been doing some experimentation on my French
   lute, which is now one year old.  It is 67.5 cm 11-course Frei.
   Recently, I put on plain gut, down to the 10th course (actually,
   Pistoys on the 5th, and Pistoy fundamentals on 6-10)  The 11th course
   still has a loaded gut  fundamental from Mimmo.  That is the only metal
   I have on this lute, and I want to say that I am quite happy with the
   sound of the pure (Pistoy) gut, i.e., without metal).  In fact, I
   prefer it to loaded gut.  I just have not gotten around to trying the
   11th fundamental in pure gut, but when I do, I think it will work just
   fine.  String makers have done a terrific job in research and
   production of incorporating of metal into gut, but for my 11-course
   lute with no bass extension, is very nice indeed. using pure gut.  They
   do not sound tubby at all.
   Unfortunately, I have not recorded this instrument yet, but will, using
   this stringing configuration.  In my opinion, at least when discussing
   French baroque lute music, this is certainly worth trying.
   Another factor I have just made a huge modification on the
   11-course lute.  I have just installed planetary gears, instead of
   pegs.  I know  some people disapprove of this, but for many reasons, I
   am very, very happy with the results.  They are expensive - that is a
   drawback.  The thing is, friction pegs can be problematic, and even the
   best ones, perfectly fitted, do slip a little but.  These pegs look
   _exactly_ like an ebony lute peg, but then _never_ slip or stick.  They
   are geared to 25% of the turning of a friction peg;  in other words,
   one must turn 4 times the distance one would turn using a friction
   peg.  This makes tuning much, much more accurate, and it does not
   stick, and the action is very fluid.  The weight is identical to a lute
   peg, so no weight is added.  With these gears, it is actually, a joy to
   tune!
   Sometimes with friction pegs, I may be more hesitant to make

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Mathias
   Thanks for your explanations, yes I do understand your
   feelings. I have a number of friends here in Paris, who prefer to play
   Weiss (or similar) rather than French music, more or less for the
   reasons you state.
   Only the bare-bones seem to be encoded in the tablature, and a great
   depth of understanding is needed to interpret the simplest of pieces.
   Economy of composition and melodic ambiguity, seems almost
   contradictory; French classic literature shows similar economy, but
   seeks out le mot juste (whereas according to a recent BBC programme,
   English authors delight in ambiguity).
   I do delight in melodic ambiguity, but am far from mastering the art of
   its interpretation or grasping the grammar of its rhetoric.
   My first teacher, Terrence Waterhouse, before I temporarily retired
   from lute playing, was a student of Michael Schaeffer, and I heard much
   about his theoretical in-put, through him. At that time I was only
   learning renaissance lute, and there was unfortunately a long break
   before I returned to lute playing and the baroque lute.
   I am in contact with an expert in the interpretation of the French
   lute, and always amazed at how he makes a piece sing, or talk; in
   comparison my playing is completely flat, but I strive on. I love his
   playing of Weiss, but find it almost melodically indulgent (if you know
   what I mean), I must be rather a melodic puritan, I fear.
   Best wishes
   Anthony
 __

   De : Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de
   A : baroque-lute mailing-list baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Envoye le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 10h56
   Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
   Dear Anthony,
   I do not blame you, and I hope you didn't offense in what I wrote. As
   for
   the Pieces de luth LP, I do regret that it was my first encounter
   with
   French baroque lute music. When I first listened, I was like, wow, they
   had
   jazz in the 17th century. It's so sophisticated, I couldn't tell triple
   time
   from even time by listening, I was amazed by the glittering sound,
   amazed by
   unexpected progress of harmonies, amazed by unidentifiable rhythmical
   structures.
   From then on, my idea of that music was, I kinda like it, but this is
   so
   artificial, I will never understand how it works. This music was
   completely
   veiled before my ears because of many rubatos, arpeggios instead of
   broken
   lines, and so on. Had I first listened to, say, Michael Schaeffer,
   things
   would have been different for me (but if and would are the fool's last
   words). That first contact coined my idea of what French baroque lute
   music
   was.
   And that's why I kept my hands off from it for a long time. Like many
   others, I took my way through Giesbert's method and later through
   Toyohiko
   Satoh's. To me, the greatest composers who wrote for the baroque lute,
   were
   Bach and Weiss, and none other compared to them. I knew there was some
   French music, but it was much too tricky and way not rewarding enough
   as to
   be worth a try. Sorry for oversimplification, but it comes close.
   He does mention his stringing in all the booklets relating to the
   Wengerer lute (his last two CDs), but as I made clear, he says
   nothing
   about th stringing of the 12c lute (a pity). I am sorry that you
   didn't
   remember it.
   That's right, he doesn't say a word about his stringing in the booklet
   of
   Old Gaultier's Nightingale.
   Best,
   Mathias
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Anthony Hind]

   My 70 cm Warwick works well at 392Hz. While going from 407Hz to 392Hz,
   I wanted to raise the tension of the basses slightly, so I just shifted
   them along one increment (C1 to D2 etc). However, I changed most of the
   mid and top strings.
   The basses were two years old, but still seem good.
   A smaller lute, as Ed suggests, might be better at 415.
   Anthony
   PS My intuition might be that certain pieces are better played at 392,
   but perhaps not all.
 __

   De : sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   A : howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com; baroque lute list
   baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 5h18
   Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 Hi-After just playing it now, I like the basses but the 1st and
 2nd courses could be higher tension of course so I think I will go
   that
 way.
 Just curious--how many of you are playing baroque lutes at A=392? I
 think it works quite well on a larger lute, but I'm not convinced it
 should be done on a smaller lute(ie below 69cm). My 70.5cm Burkholzer
 will stay at 415.
 -Sterling
 From: howard posner [1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
 To: baroque lute list [2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:15 PM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 On Nov 28, 2011, at 5:15 PM, sterling price wrote:
  My question is: should I
   just tune the same 415 strings down or get a new set of strings
   for
   392?
 Yes.  Those are pretty much the only two options.
  Right now it is at 392 but I'm wondering if it might sound better
   with new strings. Any thoughts?
 Do you like it at 392 now?
 --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --

   --

References

   1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   2. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Anthony Hind]

For accompanying singers, also, the answer, unfortunately, is to have a number 
of different sized lutes.
Anthony



- Mail original -
De : William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
À : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com; sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com
Cc : baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Envoyé le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 10h27
Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

   As far as I can see the only show-stopper for a lute tuned to 392Hz is
   ensemble work, when the other musicians are tuned to a higher pitch
   standard - usually 415Hz.  That's where a 66cm baroque lute would be
   useful.  Having said that, not many lutes that small have survived.  Of
   course, the old guys (unlike me) might have been able to transpose a
   semitone up without any trouble.

   Bill
   From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
   To: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2011, 9:06
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
     My 70 cm Warwick works well at 392Hz. While going from 407Hz to
   392Hz,
     I wanted to raise the tension of the basses slightly, so I just
   shifted
     them along one increment (C1 to D2 etc). However, I changed most of
   the
     mid and top strings.
     The basses were two years old, but still seem good.
     A smaller lute, as Ed suggests, might be better at 415.
     Anthony
     PS My intuition might be that certain pieces are better played at
   392,
     but perhaps not all.
       __
     De : sterling price [1]spiffys84...@yahoo.com
     A : howard posner [2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; baroque lute list
     [3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
     Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 5h18
     Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
       Hi-After just playing it now, I like the basses but the 1st and
       2nd courses could be higher tension of course so I think I will go
     that
       way.
       Just curious--how many of you are playing baroque lutes at A=392? I
       think it works quite well on a larger lute, but I'm not convinced
   it
       should be done on a smaller lute(ie below 69cm). My 70.5cm
   Burkholzer
       will stay at 415.
       -Sterling
       From: howard posner [1][4]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
       To: baroque lute list [2][5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
       Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:15 PM
       Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
       On Nov 28, 2011, at 5:15 PM, sterling price wrote:
        My question is: should I
         just tune the same 415 strings down or get a new set of strings
     for
         392?
       Yes.  Those are pretty much the only two options.
        Right now it is at 392 but I'm wondering if it might sound better
         with new strings. Any thoughts?
       Do you like it at 392 now?
       --
       To get on or off this list see list information at
       [3][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
       --
     --
   References
     1. mailto:[7]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
     2. mailto:[8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
     3. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   3. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   5. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   8. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Anthony Hind]

I was rather thinking of a singer being accompanied by a single lute, in which 
perhaps the choice of lute might be secondary and determined by the best range, 
and tonal agreement with the singer. In the case of a singer adapting to an 
orchestra, I imagine you would be right.

Anthony



- Mail original -
De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
À : William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
Cc : 
Envoyé le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 12h58
Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392


   Dear Anthony,

   Unless outside their range, won't singers simply transpose to fit with
   the key/pitch of the accompaniment rather than the band having to
   change instruments?

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 29/11/11, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote:

     From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
     Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
     To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk,
     baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
     Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 11:41

   For accompanying singers, also, the answer, unfortunately, is to have a
   number of different sized lutes.
   Anthony
   - Mail original -
   De : William Samson [1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
   A : Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com; sterling price
   [3]spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   Cc : [4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 10h27
   Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
      As far as I can see the only show-stopper for a lute tuned to 392Hz
   is
      ensemble work, when the other musicians are tuned to a higher pitch
      standard - usually 415Hz.  That's where a 66cm baroque lute would be
      useful.  Having said that, not many lutes that small have survived.
   Of
      course, the old guys (unlike me) might have been able to transpose a
      semitone up without any trouble.
      Bill
      From: Anthony Hind [6]agno3ph...@yahoo.com
      To: sterling price [7]spiffys84...@yahoo.com
      Cc: [8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
      Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2011, 9:06
      Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
        My 70 cm Warwick works well at 392Hz. While going from 407Hz to
      392Hz,
        I wanted to raise the tension of the basses slightly, so I just
      shifted
        them along one increment (C1 to D2 etc). However, I changed most
   of
      the
        mid and top strings.
        The basses were two years old, but still seem good.
        A smaller lute, as Ed suggests, might be better at 415.
        Anthony
        PS My intuition might be that certain pieces are better played at
      392,
        but perhaps not all.

   __
        De : sterling price [1][10]spiffys84...@yahoo.com
        A : howard posner [2][11]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; baroque lute
   list
        [3][12]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
        Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 5h18
        Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
          Hi-After just playing it now, I like the basses but the 1st and
          2nd courses could be higher tension of course so I think I will
   go
        that
          way.
          Just curious--how many of you are playing baroque lutes at
   A=392? I
          think it works quite well on a larger lute, but I'm not
   convinced
      it
          should be done on a smaller lute(ie below 69cm). My 70.5cm
      Burkholzer
          will stay at 415.
          -Sterling
          From: howard posner [1][4][13]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
          To: baroque lute list [2][5][14]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
          Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:15 PM
          Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
          On Nov 28, 2011, at 5:15 PM, sterling price wrote:
           My question is: should I
            just tune the same 415 strings down or get a new set of
   strings
        for
            392?
          Yes.  Those are pretty much the only two options.
           Right now it is at 392 but I'm wondering if it might sound
   better
            with new strings. Any thoughts?
          Do you like it at 392 now?
          --
          To get on or off this list see list information at
          [3][6][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
          --
        --
      References
        1. mailto:[7][16]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
        2. mailto:[8][17]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
        3. [9][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
      --
   References
      1. mailto:[19]spiffys84...@yahoo.com
      2. mailto:[20]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
      3. mailto:[21]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
      4. mailto:[22]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
      5. mailto:[23]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
      6. [24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
      7. mailto:[25]howardpos...@ca.rr.com

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Arto
 The question might be what the characteristics are that you are 
looking 

for 

in an 11-course baroque lute, and for what part of the 11c repertoire, and what 
type of stringing you are hoping to use (particularly for the basses), low 
tension:high tension, pure gut or loaded basses, or synthetics? All this might 
determine the best makers for you to consider. 


Model and bass string type:
The model (and maker) you may want to choose could be determined partly by the 
type of stringing you use. Although, for the French repertory it is sometimes 
felt that a 67cm Bologna style lute (or less) might be a typical choice (Vienna 
Frei)
if you wish to use gut, this may mean you need to use loaded or gimped basses 
(at around 415) to avoid over thick basses. 

If you want to use pure gut, you may prefer to adopt a slightly longer string 
length, and possibly a larger bowl (Rauwolf, multi-ribbed Tieffenbrucher, 
Burkholzer  etc); these may be felt less French by some, who base this mainly 
on 

Burwell,
possibly, ignoring evidence of models represented on the Rhétorique de Dieux 
manuscript.

Sustain and clarity:
Personally, I feel that Jakob Lindberg is right in considering that the ideal 
lute (for this and possibly other repertories) would be those having the two 
almost contradictory characteristics he claims for his Rauwolf: this  
has exactly what I want. It has that clarity  but also sustain, which is 
amazing 


 Lute Quaterly Mai 2007 P.8.

Anthony Bailes suggests that sustain was so essential to the French musicians 
that this was what brought them to search out old Italian Bologna lutes.
The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments have more 
sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is 
particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds on 
longer than it actually does. (Lute News 85, Avril 2008)

In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his 
interpretation 


of this music that he is willing to sacrifice ideal string length, adopting a 
76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute 
affords.

However, vintage lutes not being readilly available ... how can we approach 
that 


French ideal of sustain and clarity?

I feel a slightly longer string length than the Vienna Frei  (69 to 71), such 
as 


that of the Warwick, or perhaps certain Mahler models, along with the use of 
loaded bass strings might give us a little more depth of sound and sustain, 
while maintaining a good balance between registers. 

A larger bodied lute with loaded basses might have a little too much bass for 
the French repertory, but be excellent (if not quite historically accurate) for 
later styles. they may work quite well with pure gut basses (Satoh, etc) giving 
good depth, but perhaps be somewhat lacking in sustain.

I am very happy with my 69.5 cm 11c Warwick lute from Stephen Gottlieb with 
loaded basses; it does have good sustain and singing quality, even if it might 
not be quite so transparent in the top register, as some lutes (Martin 
Haycock's 


for example). Thus again your preference of lute maker may be determined by the 
qualities you find essential in a Baroque lute. 

It is difficult to unite all these qualities in the same lute, but presumably a 
lute by Paul Thomson might near this.

The best maker for your chosen model:
 You may perhaps look for a maker according to the model, string length and 
string type, you want to adopt. Certain makers may be particularly renowned for 
certain models (and associated with certain playing styles), although they may 
be quite open to making other lute models.
Just to quote one, Richard Berg seems to be a maker frequently chosen by those 
proning low tension pure gut basses and who prefer the multi-ribbed Burkholzer 
or Greiss lutes (Satoh etc).

String tweaking:
Indeed, as  I am sure you are aware, choice of stringing is almost as important 
as choice of lute, and I have spent the last two years trying to maximise my 
lute's singing quality by small shifts in the stringing.

Please do not consider that there is only one way to go, it is more a question 
of finding the right pitch, string type, and tension at which a particular lute 
really begins to sing.

My 69.5cm lute seems to work better at 392 than previously used 415 or 407; and 
 


Aquila low impedance Venice strings on basses (loaded), most octaves, and 
Meanes 


does maximise sustain (through sympathetic resonances and low impedance to the 
soundboard) but while maintaining good clarity. 


Nevertheless, I recently raised the tension on bass courses (while keeping a 
higher relative tension on the octaves) which further increased sustain, thus 
further improving this singing quality.

I would not claim this is the only way to string a lute, just that a good lute 
can become an excellent one with the choice of the right stringing, both for 
the 


lute and for 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?

[Anthony Hind]

 the Talbot MS, extant instruments)
   indicates that a string length around 68cm (say +/- 2cm) was what these
   particular Old Ones expected. Although Bailes used a 1722 Wenger
   instrument (possibly originally a gallichon - the instruments for which
   Wenger was best known) recently converted to an 11 course lute with a
   string length around 76cm on a CD of French lute music from around
   1670,  he conceded that 'As Martyn Hodgson quite rightly points out in
   his letter in the last issue of Lute News (No 94), a lute the size of
   the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the
   performance of 17th century French lute music'.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 31/5/11, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 31 May, 2011, 14:04

   Dear Arto
The question might be what the characteristics are that you
   are looking
   for
   in an 11-course baroque lute, and for what part of the 11c repertoire,
   and what
   type of stringing you are hoping to use (particularly for the basses),
   low
   tension:high tension, pure gut or loaded basses, or synthetics? All
   this might
   determine the best makers for you to consider.
   Model and bass string type:
   The model (and maker) you may want to choose could be determined partly
   by the
   type of stringing you use. Although, for the French repertory it is
   sometimes
   felt that a 67cm Bologna style lute (or less) might be a typical choice
   (Vienna
   Frei)
   if you wish to use gut, this may mean you need to use loaded or gimped
   basses
   (at around 415) to avoid over thick basses.
   If you want to use pure gut, you may prefer to adopt a slightly longer
   string
   length, and possibly a larger bowl (Rauwolf, multi-ribbed
   Tieffenbrucher,
   Burkholzer  etc); these may be felt less French by some, who base this
   mainly on
   Burwell,
   possibly, ignoring evidence of models represented on the Rhetorique de
   Dieux
   manuscript.
   Sustain and clarity:
   Personally, I feel that Jakob Lindberg is right in considering that the
   ideal
   lute (for this and possibly other repertories) would be those having
   the two
   almost contradictory characteristics he claims for his Rauwolf: this
   has exactly what I want. It has that clarity  but also sustain, which
   is amazing
Lute Quaterly Mai 2007 P.8.
   Anthony Bailes suggests that sustain was so essential to the French
   musicians
   that this was what brought them to search out old Italian Bologna
   lutes.
   The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments
   have more
   sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This
   is
   particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds
   on
   longer than it actually does. (Lute News 85, Avril 2008)
   In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his
   interpretation
   of this music that he is willing to sacrifice ideal string length,
   adopting a
   76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage
   lute
   affords.
   However, vintage lutes not being readilly available ... how can we
   approach that
   French ideal of sustain and clarity?
   I feel a slightly longer string length than the Vienna Frei  (69 to
   71), such as
   that of the Warwick, or perhaps certain Mahler models, along with the
   use of
   loaded bass strings might give us a little more depth of sound and
   sustain,
   while maintaining a good balance between registers.
   A larger bodied lute with loaded basses might have a little too much
   bass for
   the French repertory, but be excellent (if not quite historically
   accurate) for
   later styles. they may work quite well with pure gut basses (Satoh,
   etc) giving
   good depth, but perhaps be somewhat lacking in sustain.
   I am very happy with my 69.5 cm 11c Warwick lute from Stephen Gottlieb
   with
   loaded basses; it does have good sustain and singing quality, even if
   it might
   not be quite so transparent in the top register, as some lutes (Martin
   Haycock's
   for example). Thus again your preference of lute maker may be
   determined by the
   qualities you find essential in a Baroque lute.
   It is difficult to unite all these qualities in the same lute, but
   presumably a
   lute by Paul Thomson might near this.
   The best maker for your chosen model:
You may perhaps look for a maker according to the model, string
   length and
   string type, you want to adopt. Certain makers may be particularly
   renowned for
   certain models (and associated with certain playing styles), although
   they may
   be quite open to making other lute models.
   Just to quote one, Richard Berg seems to be a maker frequently chosen
   by those
   proning low tension pure gut basses and who prefer the multi

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?

[Anthony Hind]

 (iconography, early
   measurements - especially the Talbot MS, extant instruments)
   indicates that a string length around 68cm (say +/- 2cm) was what these
   particular Old Ones expected. Although Bailes used a 1722 Wenger
   instrument (possibly originally a gallichon - the instruments for which
   Wenger was best known) recently converted to an 11 course lute with a
   string length around 76cm on a CD of French lute music from around
   1670,  he conceded that 'As Martyn Hodgson quite rightly points out in
   his letter in the last issue of Lute News (No 94), a lute the size of
   the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the
   performance of 17th century French lute music'.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 31/5/11, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 31 May, 2011, 14:04

   Dear Arto
The question might be what the characteristics are that you
   are looking
   for
   in an 11-course baroque lute, and for what part of the 11c repertoire,
   and what
   type of stringing you are hoping to use (particularly for the basses),
   low
   tension:high tension, pure gut or loaded basses, or synthetics? All
   this might
   determine the best makers for you to consider.
   Model and bass string type:
   The model (and maker) you may want to choose could be determined partly
   by the
   type of stringing you use. Although, for the French repertory it is
   sometimes
   felt that a 67cm Bologna style lute (or less) might be a typical choice
   (Vienna
   Frei)
   if you wish to use gut, this may mean you need to use loaded or gimped
   basses
   (at around 415) to avoid over thick basses.
   If you want to use pure gut, you may prefer to adopt a slightly longer
   string
   length, and possibly a larger bowl (Rauwolf, multi-ribbed
   Tieffenbrucher,
   Burkholzer  etc); these may be felt less French by some, who base this
   mainly on
   Burwell,
   possibly, ignoring evidence of models represented on the Rhetorique de
   Dieux
   manuscript.
   Sustain and clarity:
   Personally, I feel that Jakob Lindberg is right in considering that the
   ideal
   lute (for this and possibly other repertories) would be those having
   the two
   almost contradictory characteristics he claims for his Rauwolf: this
   has exactly what I want. It has that clarity  but also sustain, which
   is amazing
Lute Quaterly Mai 2007 P.8.
   Anthony Bailes suggests that sustain was so essential to the French
   musicians
   that this was what brought them to search out old Italian Bologna
   lutes.
   The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments
   have more
   sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This
   is
   particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds
   on
   longer than it actually does. (Lute News 85, Avril 2008)
   In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his
   interpretation
   of this music that he is willing to sacrifice ideal string length,
   adopting a
   76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage
   lute
   affords.
   However, vintage lutes not being readilly available ... how can we
   approach that
   French ideal of sustain and clarity?
   I feel a slightly longer string length than the Vienna Frei  (69 to
   71), such as
   that of the Warwick, or perhaps certain Mahler models, along with the
   use of
   loaded bass strings might give us a little more depth of sound and
   sustain,
   while maintaining a good balance between registers.
   A larger bodied lute with loaded basses might have a little too much
   bass for
   the French repertory, but be excellent (if not quite historically
   accurate) for
   later styles. they may work quite well with pure gut basses (Satoh,
   etc) giving
   good depth, but perhaps be somewhat lacking in sustain.
   I am very happy with my 69.5 cm 11c Warwick lute from Stephen Gottlieb
   with
   loaded basses; it does have good sustain and singing quality, even if
   it might
   not be quite so transparent in the top register, as some lutes (Martin
   Haycock's
   for example). Thus again your preference of lute maker may be
   determined by the
   qualities you find essential in a Baroque lute.
   It is difficult to unite all these qualities in the same lute, but
   presumably a
   lute by Paul Thomson might near this.
   The best maker for your chosen model:
You may perhaps look for a maker according to the model, string
   length and
   string type, you want to adopt. Certain makers may be particularly
   renowned for
   certain models (and associated with certain playing styles), although
   they may
   be quite open to making other lute models.
   Just to quote one, Richard Berg seems to be a maker frequently chosen
   by those
   proning

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Richness of our repertoire!

[anthony . hind]

   Dear Arto
The recent France musique prog= ramme by Miguel Yisrael,
   introduced me to the works of the Austrian Lauffen= steiner (same
   period as Weiss). I don't believe I had heard any of his piec= es
   before. Miguel's performance of one of his sonatas, is at the end of
   thi= s programme:
   http://media.radiofrance-podcast.net/podcast09/11521-11.10.=
   2010-ITEMA_20246847-0.mp3
   Personally, I am more sensitive to the earlier= French Baroque, and
   this is almost Mozartian, but it shows how wide the Ba= roque lute
   programme is, as you are saying.
   regards
   Anthony


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Richness of our repertoire!

[Anthony Hind]

   Oups, sorry, I have to send this from my other mail, or it becomes
   garbled, not sure why.
   Dear Arto
The recent France musique programme by Miguel Yisrael, introduced
   me to the works of the Austrian Lauffensteiner (same period as Weiss).
   I don't believe I had heard any of his pieces before. Miguel's
   performance of one of his sonatas, is at the end of this programme:
   [1]http://tinyurl.com/2u7feqb
   Personally, I am more sensitive to the earlier French Baroque, and this
   is almost Mozartian, but it shows how wide the Baroque lute programme
   is, as you are saying.
   regards
   Anthony

   --

References

   1. http://tinyurl.com/2u7feqb


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re :b-lute debut

[anthony . hind]

   Very nice David! Two of the pieces, the Allemande in d-moll, and the=
   Courante in d-moll
   are pieces I am actually working on at the moment; so I am very happy
   to h= ave your interpretation.
   Of course I do have the recording by Satoh, whi= ch I have listened to
   at various speeds to try to analyse his phrasing and = ornamentation;
   but the problem I have been finding most difficult is fittin= g the
   ornamentation in with the basic rhythmic structure.
   Jacqueline hea= ring the Allemande coming from my office, thought I was
   playing in there. S= he actually recognized the piece, so there is hope
   for me yet.
   Best wish= es
   Anthony

    Message d'origine 
   De : David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   =C3=80 : lutelist Net l...@cs.dartmouth.edu;
Baroque Lute List (E-mail) baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu= gt;
   Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] b-lute debut
   Date : 10/01/2010 11:35:06 CET
   
   Like Arto, I have fallen for an 11-course.
Mine is made by Richard Berg, after Burckholtzer/Edlinger.
It's 68cm and strung, naturally, all-gut with Gamut Pistoys on the
   ba= sses.
Last Wednesday I had my first concert, all music by Weichenberger,
   an= d
here are the clips I made yesterday:
   
Chaconne in a-moll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DAiQSWBxUSAg
   
Allemande in d-moll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DOsGDtKGXHsg
   
Courante in d-moll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D_oaC8Rc6Rm4
   
Sarabande in d-moll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D2XQfBIt-AkI
   
David - still a lot to learn, but not bad for a beginner. ;-)
   
--
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***
   
   
   
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re :Re: Re :b-lute debut

[anthony . hind]

   Yes, I have been using a metronome, and intuitively thinking of the
   ornaments as divisions, but I did not think of playing the ornaments by
   themselves. I will definitely give that a go.
   Yes, it is often quite difficult to play at half measure, a little like
   slow motion walking, but it does facilitate more detailed analysis.
   Listening to Satoh's playing at about half speed also allowed me to tr=
   y to capture the idea of in=C3=A9gal rhtyhm with a sort of scat
   singing= syllable system. I found that incredibly helpful, but of
   course it is not = a universal-type system, probably only works for me,
   and may be different o= n every piece.
   Thanks for the advice
   Anthony


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re :Re: Re :b-lute debut

[Anthony Hind]

   I will send that again, via my Yahoo mail. I don't understand why the
   messages from one of my mail addresses gets garbled  on the LSA list
   with added signs, corresponding to the line spaces (and also has a sort
   of ginger-bread man emblem appears); while the other has all its
   paragragh spaces removed. I wonder what setting one should use to avoid
   this happening?
   Dear David
   Yes, I have been using a metronome, and intuitively thinking of
   the
 ornaments as divisions, but I did not think of playing the ornaments
   by
 themselves. I will definitely give that a go.
 Yes, it is often quite difficult to play at half measure, a little
   like
 slow motion walking, but it does facilitate more detailed analysis.
 Listening to Satoh's playing at about half speed also allowed me to
   tr=
 y to capture the idea of inegal rhtyhm with a sort of scat
 singing= syllable system. I found that incredibly helpful, but of
 course it is not a universal-type system, probably only works for me,
 and may be different on every piece.
 Thanks for the advice
 Anthony
   On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 11:54 AM,  anthony.h...@noos.fr wrote:
   problem I have been finding most difficult is fitting the ornamentation
   in
   with the basic rhythmic structure.
   Write the ornaments out in rhythm. Start simple: two eight notes to
   divide one quarter. Or a quarter and and eight note to dive a dotted
   quarter. Then four sixteenth for one quarter. Play in time. Then try
   six 'sixtuplets' in one quarter. Play in time. Make that your starting
   point for a more free interpretation in which you can speed up or slow
   down the ornament. A metronome is a useful tool: set it on quarter or
   even eight notes to practice the ornament in strict rhythm. Take your
   time, practice slowly, speed will come later. Set the metronome at
   half measure (or whatever is appropriate in the piece) to practice the
   freedom in the ornament after which you should land on the beat again.
   Practice slowly and precisely, play fast and freely.
   David

   --


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[no subject]

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Arto
   I found that varnished treble gut (which I think Sofracob may
   be) was more scratchy than plain or oiled gut; but also some makes are
   slightly rounder sounding (Baldock Cathedral, in particular) or
   brighter than others. The bright ones tend to emphasize scratchiness.
   However, the thickness of the treble strings also seems to play a role:
   the thinner they are the more scratchy they are (you can't dig into
   them so well). This is why I lowered the diapason from 415 to 407, so
   that I could use a 0,44 top string on my 70 cm Baroque lute. I would
   have preferred to go even lower, but I would have had to change all my
   strings.
   The fact of having two single courses on 1 and 2, must play a role,
   here (compared say to a 10c lute),  although I am not sure what the
   effect might be.
   I did also notice that my change of technique for Baroque lute playing
   (thumb-in to thumb-out), initially, seemed to make my top strings sound
   more scratchy, until I realized I was not digging-in to the trebles
   strings sufficiently. The sound improved, as soon as I realized that.
   I think I now play flatter on the treble strings (see Mouton)  and less
   sidewards on than I played Renaissance lute. I don't know whether that
   makes sense to you.
   Since then, over the months the sound has become less scratchy by
   degrees, with no particular conscious effort on my part.
   Having said that, have you recorded your renaissance lute with the Zoom
   recorder?
   It could be that it would be just as scratchy.
   Not because you play in a scratchy way, but the problem with the Zoom
   is that you need to record very close, if you don't want preamp noise;
   but then you will amplify all finger noises. I think Rob and Martin
   mentioned this when they began to use their Zoom recorders.
   Best wishes
   Anthony
   Dear baroque lutenists,
   I made a triple test (and perhaps unluckily also published it?): I
   played
   an instrument very new to me, an 11 courser by Lars Joenssson 1993. The
   lute is strung by gut. And I used a new Zoom Q3 to record my test. So
   there
   were three to me new and quite vague parameters: the instrument, the
   strings, the recorder equipment... :-/
   A couple of questions:
   1) The gut strings seem to be (hear to be) quite noisy. The piece I
   play
   doesn't use the 1st string at all, but that is even more noisy... Is
   that
   the nature of gut strings? The strings of the lute are probably
   Sobrakof.
   The seller could not tell me the string properties, diameter or
   tension.
   They feel quite light. Much lighter than the synthetics I am used to.
   And I
   am used - as a continuo player - to play by quite heavy a hand...
   2) I recorded the test in the PCM 44.1kHz 16bit of the Q3, then
   edited
   the beginning and the end off by Quicktime, and finally exported the
   piece from Quicktime by the same 44.1kHz 16bit. The sound is really
   quite
   rough. Perhaps it really is so also in real life? I really don't
   know...
   The test is in
[1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k6DJ3HL1Cc
   and also in Vimeo
[2]http://www.vimeo.com/8221336
   I do not know what their systems are to publish the files I sent.
   All the best,
   Arto
   PS 1:  It really is dark in wintertime here in Finland, and the lights
   in
   my work room are not too bright either ;-)
   PS 2: I just wait, how 62Konrad will comment... ;-)
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   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k6DJ3HL1Cc
   2. http://www.vimeo.com/8221336
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] String tensions etc. in d-m-lutes, esp. 11c.?

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Arto
  Congratulations on your new 11-course.
   I am also new to the Baroque lute, but have had my 11c 70 cm Warwick
   for just over a year, and have had time to gradually change some of my
   stringing.
   Unfortunately I just had a double computer failure, and I had lost much
   of my stored data, but your message has given me a chance to do a
   little detective work (old bills, etc), and I think I am now sure of
   the original values, and the changes I have made.
   In brief : On my 11c Warwick, I now use all gut by Aquila, with Meanes
   in Aquila Venices, and Basses in Aquila loaded Venices, but the Octaves
   down from g-7 are also in Aquila Venices.
   The Octaves are now slightly higher in tension (3.1Kg) than the Basses
   themselves (2.9Kg).
   I don't think this is particularly low tension, but nor is it
   particularly high.
   However, Venice string types are probably the most flexible, other than
   Charles Besnainou's spring strings, and in this respect behave
   similarly to low tension strings.
   I have not yet reached a stable RH position. It seems to depend on the
   angle of my fingers to the strings. The flatter they are on to the
   strings, the further back towards the bridge I seem to go.
   11c lutes do seem to have wider spacing than 13c lutes, both between
   courses and within the course, I might now have chosen a slightly
   closer spacing between courses as this does add to the stretch of a
   longish 70cm lute.
   Now, In more detail :
   Basses:
   From the beginning, I used the gut strings Stephen Gottlieb put on
   my lute, including the loaded Venice Basses for which I had
   specifically asked him. St G had put them on C-11 up to F-8, but then a
   Gimped Bass on G-7, and a Venice Bass on A-6. This was because he
   feared that loaded basses would stop down false; but the result was not
   as homogenous as I would have liked; so I changed these last also for
   loaded strings with no serious falseness problem and much improved
   homogeneity (not because Gimped or Venice strings are bad per se).
   Meanes:
   St G had put HT Trebles for  Meane 4 and 5, but I changed these to
   Venice Meanes, again to improve the homogeneity with the Venice loaded
   Basses, and I predicted (I think correctly) that similar string types
   would work better together (sympathy).
   Octaves  Diapason tension switch:
St G had chosen 2.8Kg HT octaves with 3kg Venice loaded Basses and had
   strung my lute at 415Hz.
   I really wanted a diapason nearer 392Hz, so as to have thicker treble
   strings  (at least 0,44, rather than 0.42); but not wanting to throw
   away the loaded strings, I lowered the diapason to 407Hz (the lowest I
   could acheive with the rather slack loaded strings)
   My loaded strings then became a rather low 2.9Kg, or 2.85Kg (at 407Hz).
   But to copensate for this drop in tension at the level of the course, I
   then replaced all the octaves with values worth about 3Kg to 3.1Kg (at
   407Hz). So that from Bass at 3Kg and Octave at 2.8Kg, I now had Bass at
   2.9Kg and Octave at 3.1Kg.
   This works really well. The octaves then became the leading string of
   the course; but as at the same time I swapped all the Octave HTs (from
   g-7 to c-11) for Venice Meane strings (see Mace), the leading tone
   became that of the Meanes creating a beautiful homogeneity from the
   Basses through to the Meanes.
   Also, all tendency for the Octaves to buzz with the loaded basses
   disappeared.
   I Approximate values and strings chosen by my Lute Maker:
   70 cm a'=414 Hz,
   f1)  0.42 treble gut 4Kg
   d-2 0.50 treble gut4Kg
   a-30.58 treble gut 2.9Kg
   F-40.72 HT gut  2.9Kg
   D-5   0.86V HT gut2.9kg
   a-60.56 HT treble gut   2.8Kg
   A-61.2 Venice Aquila  3Kg
   g-7  0.64 HT treble gut 2.8Kg  Octave
   G-71.32  Gimped  gut 3Kg  Gamut
   f-8  0.64 HT treble gut 2.8Kg
   F-8 1.46 Venice Aquila  3Kg
   e-90.76 HT treble gut 2.8Kg
   E-91.6C loaded Aquila  3Kg
   d-10   0.86 HT treble gut   2.8Kg
   D-10  1.8C loaded gut 3Kg
   c-11 0,96 HT treble gut   2.8Kg
   C-11  1.96C loaded gut   3Kg
   II The final values and string types adopted:
   70 cm a'=407 Hz, all Aquilla
   f1 0.44 treble gut (4.2Kg)
   d-2  0.52 treble gut (4Kg)
   A-3 0.60 treble gut x2   3Kg
   F-4  0.76V gut (twice)3Kg
   D-5 0.91V gut (twice)3kg
   a-6  0.58 treble gut3 Kg
   A-6  1.24C  Venice  loaded  2.9Kg
   g-7  73V Venice  Meane gut 3kg
   G-7  140c Venice  loaded 2.9Kg
   f-80,82 Venice  Meane gut3kg
   F-8   1.46C Venice  loaded2.9Kg
   e-90.88 Venice  Meane gut   

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack Spruce

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Ed
I am so pleased to hear your lute is back, and so we will  
soon be hearing more music, but even sweeter than on your excellent  
Conradi CD, if that is possible.


	I am interested to hear you mention the singing quality of your  
lute. This is also what struck me about my 11c lute. I had heard a  
number of very good 11c lutes but none quite so singing. I suppose  
this comes from the contradictory qualities of clarity and sustain,  
which few lutes seem to possess.


Perhaps the hardness of the top could be the quality that our lutes  
might have in common. Stephen Gottlieb told me he had used a piece of  
perticularly old and hard timber, which happened to have a mild Bear  
claw pattern.
Well you can certainly put it down to the new top, as that is all Dan  
Larson changed. I can only guess that it might be the top on my lute.


Was this wood, also from a stock of old floating logs, as I  
mentionned to you, in a previous message. If so, it could be both the  
age, and the fact that it is Adirondack?


Congratulations on the rebirth of your 11c lute. If I understand  
correctly, this is its second rebirth, as I believe previously it was  
a 7c lute.

A lute with nine lives?
Best wishes
Anthony



Le 22 sept. 09 à 00:14, Edward Martin a écrit :


Dear ones,

I wrote a week or so ago, about my mishap with my 11-course
lute.  Needing a top replacement, the work is finally complete, and I
have it back.

The results are absolutely beautiful!  The top wood is gorgeous, and
the sound is very complex.  As many have described Adirondack for
tops, the treble is very clear, and very strong.  I have never heard
a new lute with such a singing treble, which makes for a very
wonderful sound.

Of course, this old lute is now in effect a new 11-course lute, after
the previous 14 year old top.  It does sound new, and it will take
time to season the sound;  in addition to guitars, Adirondack spruce
also works very well for lutes.  I highly recommend it, if one can
ever get access to this difficult-to-obtain wood.

ed





Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name
http://www.myspace.com/edslute




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce

[Anthony Hind]

 'hardening' of the wood). Linseed oil dries of course  
 into a hard film not at all like machinery grease etc. Indeed Stand  
 Oil (ie partly oxidised Linseed oil) will dry to a hard film which  
 can be buffed in a matter of days: it's been suggested that this  
 was used on the bellies of lutes and would also act as a sealer and  
 I recall this was discussed some time ago and presumably can be  
 found in the archives.

 Martyn


 PS I've just googled the book and amazingly see that the work has  
 been scanned by Google books so you can read it online..

 --- On Wed, 16/9/09, Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr
 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, baroque- 
 l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 16 September, 2009, 8:54 AM
 Dear Martyn
 Le 15 sept. 09 à 16:51, Martyn Hodgson a écrit :

 Dear Anthony,

 I don't know if you are aware of the pioneering work
 on treatment of violin wood which Joseph Michelman undertook
 in the US during the 1940s: his work was published (VIOLIN
 VARNISH) in 1946.

 No, I heard of the more recent work relating to salt
 loading of Strads by the Hungarian, Nagyvary
 http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686
 http://tinyurl.com/62juy9
 Presumably, he was basing his research on the ideas of
 Michelman.

 Mimmo also carried out similar research, noting that
 metallic salts replace the sap compounds in the wood and
 make it as hard as stone.
 The earliest reference, I believe to treating instruments
 with salts, is in a work by Bernard Palissy.

 Thank you for telling me about this work by Michelman, I
 would indeed be interested in reading it.
 I seem to remember when I was a child that cricket bats
 were soaked in linseed oil, and that if this was not done
 they would crack almost immediately. I just assumed that
 the oils somehow made the wood more supple (less brittle),
 but I didn't think harder,
 but presumably, if the process is similar to that discussed
 by Michelman, it should result both in a more flexibilty and
 a harder wood.

 Could this process be attempted on a completed lute
 (similarly to the cricket bat)? I am not suggesting one
 should try, just wondering.

 In the case of the salts, I think the wood becomes more
 dense, and so this allows it to be cut thinner, while it
 sounds as though linseed
 might simply make the wood lighter (whatever its
 thickness), but perhaps I have not completely grasped the
 concept.

 I will certainly have to read Michelman before liberally
 applying the linseed!
 Anthony






 I believe Michelman was a chemist and certainly his
 book demonstrates a rigourous appoach to violin varnish and
 belly treatments than many earlier works. What may be on
 interest in the context of salt loading of sounboards
 is that he reported on what he believed the early
 makers used to permanently reduce the unecessary weight of
 the sounboard and improve stifness. In his case he conducted
 trials and concluded that linseed oil  was used which
 replaced the heavier water content much, perhaps, in the
 same way as salt loading may do. Michelman also described
 work with 'metal soaps' which are produced when water
 soluble salts react with fatty acids in the wood - I presume
 this is also linked to salt loading outcomes.
 In short, well worth a read if you're interested in
 the subject

 Martyn


 --- On Tue, 15/9/09, Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr
 wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 15 September, 2009, 10:45 AM
 Dear Ed
 I had a look at what
 guitar
 sites said about Adirondack, and it seems that
 the chief
 benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top is its
 stiffness
 to weight ratio.
 http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/ 
 t-51636.html

 Presumably this makes it possible to cut the table
 thinner,
 and so its reactions should become faster (similar
 to what
 happens with carbon).
 This is also what Mimmo tells me about spruce
 treated with
 salts. The wood becomes much harder, and can be
 cut
 thinner.

 That is also why, Martin Haycock told me he liked
 to use
 Bird's eye maple for backs; because it is
 relatively hard,
 he can cut it thinner than Sycamore.

 Incidentally, on the guitar page, there is a
 tendancy to
 associate Bearclaw  Sitka, with Adirondak,
 for the same
 reason.

 the qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it to be
 worked to
 achieve better tone. Due to it's superior
 stiffness the top
 can be dimensioned a little thinner (perhaps this
 isn't done
 by the factory guitar makers?). This should
 translate into
 a faster attack transient (an essential
 characteristic for
 clean, fast flat picking). If that is what you are
 looking
 for, then that would be better.

 (However, I was also told, The rather unusual
 'bear claw'
 figure seems to be an irregularity of
 the annual

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce

[Anthony Hind]

Ed
I didn't know anything either, but thought I should try to find  
some basic knowledge to be able to discuss with lutemakers.
I feel sure that lute players of the past had far more knowledge than  
we have today about woods and lute structure and how these
affect the sound that they were wanting to achieve. Indeed, some  
luteplayers, such as Jacques Gautier appear to have been lutemakers,
or at least lute designers themselves (he is described as maker of  
lutes for masques in the programme for one masque of the time).


As I understand it Sitka spruce is not equivalent to Bear Claw, but  
Bear Claw is quite prevalent in that particular species. It seems  
rather that Bear claw Sika is close in hardness to Adirondak. I have  
no idea if Adirondak can also have Bear claw, but from what others  
say, it seems most of it is quite young, in which case this is rather  
unlikely.


Here is an example of Bear Claw, for those who have probably seen it,  
but know it by another name:

Horizontal Bear claw
http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ 
soundboard/?action=viewcurrent=BearClaw1.jpg

Vertical Bear Claw
http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ 
soundboard/?action=viewcurrent=BearClaw2.jpg

Bear Claw on guitar table
http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ 
soundboard/?action=viewcurrent=BearClaw6.png


I know a Baroque Gamba that was made out of the wood of an ancient  
destroyed Chinese building (while making new roads).
The table shows superb Bear claw marks, and one would presume that  
this would have been from a far eastern variety, so probably not Sitka.


I am looking forward to hearing about how it sounds, and actually  
just hearing it, on your next CD!


Anthony


Le 15 sept. 09 à 15:19, Edward Martin a écrit :


Anthony,

Thank you for your reply.  The subject of top woods is very  
interesting, and it is something of which I have little knowledge.I  
have also read the forums on this subject.  I had not known that  
Sitka spruce is also known as bear claw.


Whether the lute will sound rich immediately is not known, but I  
ought to discover it soon!


ed



At 04:44 AM 9/15/2009, Anthony Hind wrote:

Dear Ed
   I had a look at what guitar sites said about Adirondack, and
it seems that the chief benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top
is its stiffness to weight ratio.
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/ 
t-51636.html


Presumably this makes it possible to cut the table thinner, and so
its reactions should become faster (similar to what happens with
carbon).
This is also what Mimmo tells me about spruce treated with salts. The
wood becomes much harder, and can be cut thinner.

That is also why, Martin Haycock told me he liked to use Bird's eye
maple for backs; because it is relatively hard, he can cut it thinner
than Sycamore.

Incidentally, on the guitar page, there is a tendancy to associate
Bearclaw  Sitka, with Adirondak, for the same reason.

the qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it to be worked to achieve
better tone. Due to it's superior stiffness the top can be
dimensioned a little thinner (perhaps this isn't done by the
factory guitar makers?). This should translate into a faster attack
transient (an essential characteristic for clean, fast flat picking).
If that is what you are looking for, then that would be better.

(However, I was also told, The rather unusual 'bear claw' figure
seems to be an irregularity of
the annual rings themselves, and as you have seen for yourself, can
be very
variable. Wood showing this figure seems generally to be stiff and
acoustically good, although I do not think especially better than  
normal

wood, and I would rather use it for its decorative qualities, and not
assume
it wil be superior acoustically.

Now, presumably, if Adirondak (or Bear claw Sika) were used as though
it were regular European Spruce, it would need far longer running-in.
It would presumably show higher resistance to vibration.

On the other hand, I read somewhere on a violin page that you do need
to accept a fairly long playing-in time; that it is quite easy to
make a top that can be run-in quickly, by making it too thin, but
then it tends to die early too.

However I am sure Daniel will make you a superb Adirondak  
top,

although I rather agree with David, that this does not mean that many
lutemakers will swap over to it. I don't think that the very
successful experiments with salts loaded spruce tops has lead many
lutemakers to try it.

The main thing is that you will soon be back playing 11c music, and
perhaps we will have another excellent recording like your recent
Conradi - Kelner record.

Best wishes
Anthony


Le 15 sept. 09 à 05:45, Edward Martin a écrit :


Thanks, David.

I fully understand that a new lute (i.e. top, in my case) will not
sound as seasoned as an older one, but in this case, I had no  
option,

due to the damage.

I have heard

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Martyn
Le 15 sept. 09 à 16:51, Martyn Hodgson a écrit :


Dear Anthony,

I don't know if you are aware of the pioneering work on treatment  
of violin wood which Joseph Michelman undertook in the US during  
the 1940s: his work was published (VIOLIN VARNISH) in 1946.


No, I heard of the more recent work relating to salt loading of  
Strads by the Hungarian, Nagyvary

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686
http://tinyurl.com/62juy9
Presumably, he was basing his research on the ideas of Michelman.

Mimmo also carried out similar research, noting that metallic salts  
replace the sap compounds in the wood and make it as hard as stone.
The earliest reference, I believe to treating instruments with salts,  
is in a work by Bernard Palissy.


Thank you for telling me about this work by Michelman, I would indeed  
be interested in reading it.
I seem to remember when I was a child that cricket bats were soaked  
in linseed oil, and that if this was not done
they would crack almost immediately. I just assumed that the oils  
somehow made the wood more supple (less brittle), but I didn't think  
harder,
but presumably, if the process is similar to that discussed by  
Michelman, it should result both in a more flexibilty and a harder wood.


Could this process be attempted on a completed lute (similarly to the  
cricket bat)? I am not suggesting one should try, just wondering.


In the case of the salts, I think the wood becomes more dense, and so  
this allows it to be cut thinner, while it sounds as though linseed
might simply make the wood lighter (whatever its thickness), but  
perhaps I have not completely grasped the concept.


I will certainly have to read Michelman before liberally applying the  
linseed!

Anthony







I believe Michelman was a chemist and certainly his book  
demonstrates a rigourous appoach to violin varnish and belly  
treatments than many earlier works. What may be on interest in the  
context of salt loading of sounboards
is that he reported on what he believed the early makers used to  
permanently reduce the unecessary weight of the sounboard and  
improve stifness. In his case he conducted trials and concluded  
that linseed oil  was used which replaced the heavier water content  
much, perhaps, in the same way as salt loading may do. Michelman  
also described work with 'metal soaps' which are produced when  
water soluble salts react with fatty acids in the wood - I presume  
this is also linked to salt loading outcomes.

In short, well worth a read if you're interested in the subject

Martyn


--- On Tue, 15/9/09, Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr wrote:


From: Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce
To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Tuesday, 15 September, 2009, 10:45 AM
Dear Ed
   I had a look at what guitar
sites said about Adirondack, and it seems that the chief
benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top is its stiffness
to weight ratio.
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/ 
t-51636.html


Presumably this makes it possible to cut the table thinner,
and so its reactions should become faster (similar to what
happens with carbon).
This is also what Mimmo tells me about spruce treated with
salts. The wood becomes much harder, and can be cut
thinner.

That is also why, Martin Haycock told me he liked to use
Bird's eye maple for backs; because it is relatively hard,
he can cut it thinner than Sycamore.

Incidentally, on the guitar page, there is a tendancy to
associate Bearclaw  Sitka, with Adirondak, for the same
reason.

the qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it to be worked to
achieve better tone. Due to it's superior stiffness the top
can be dimensioned a little thinner (perhaps this isn't done
by the factory guitar makers?). This should translate into
a faster attack transient (an essential characteristic for
clean, fast flat picking). If that is what you are looking
for, then that would be better.

(However, I was also told, The rather unusual 'bear claw'
figure seems to be an irregularity of
the annual rings themselves, and as you have seen for
yourself, can be very
variable. Wood showing this figure seems generally to be
stiff and
acoustically good, although I do not think especially
better than normal
wood, and I would rather use it for its decorative
qualities, and not assume
it wil be superior acoustically.

Now, presumably, if Adirondak (or Bear claw Sika) were used
as though it were regular European Spruce, it would need far
longer running-in.
It would presumably show higher resistance to vibration.

On the other hand, I read somewhere on a violin page that
you do need to accept a fairly long playing-in time; that it
is quite easy to make a top that can be run-in quickly, by
making it too thin, but then it tends to die early too.

However I am sure Daniel will make you a
superb Adirondak top, although I rather agree with David,
that this does not mean that many lutemakers

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13 (barring)

[Anthony Hind]

	I suppose to the three hypotheses, mentioned in my previous message,  
I should add something about the apparent success of demi-filé,  
probably around the same time that swannecks became popular.
There are arguments about whether the extension on swan-necked lutes  
had pure gut or demifilé, or wehether these lutes might have been  
partially strung in demi-filé (see Mimmo Peruffo), but presumably the  
reason that demi-filé finally caught on, around that time, while it  
seems to have been around for at least fifty years, might also be  
related to an enthusiasm for increased treble bass polarity  
(hypothses 2); unless the technique for loading strings had been  
lost, and demifilé finally won by default.


Relating to a strong interpretation of hypothesis 1, (that there  
could be a necessary relation between a large number of courses and  
fan-barring), we can easilly find evidence of lutes having had a  
large number of courses and yet having survived with J-barring. See  
the amazing archiluth Archiluth / E.544 / Anonyme / VENISE / ITALIE /  
EUROPE / début 17e
http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/ 
NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0255171EIDSIM=CMIM15072
There is an X-ray of the J-barring at P.66 Cahiers 7. This lute has  
survived apparently in almost original form in spite of having many  
courses and being j-barred.
However, it might well be the case that the body of this lute would  
have undergone less distorsion had it had fan-barring and the forces  
were more equally distributed on the table (weak interpretation of  
hypothesis 1?).
Notice that the three hypotheses can coexist; it is possible that  
several causes contributed to this new fashion.


David van Edwards suggests that J-barring was progressivley replaced  
by fan barring. P.59. The only lute that I have seen which has a  
mixed structure, is
Luth / E.980.2.321 / Tieffenbrucker, Magno II / Tieffenbrucker, Magno  
III / VENISE / ITALIE / EUROPE / 1580-1589
http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/ 
NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0244085EIDSIM=CMIM16581
The barring, however could be much later. You can see from the X-ray  
page 59 Cahiers 7, that the fan barring is here both on the treble  
and the bass side of a now straight J-bar, which has lost its curved  
end, which has been replaced by fanning.
Are there many such examples showing a progressive change. If the  
Rauwolf is historically fan-barred, then the theory of a gradual  
change seems challenged.


  It is unfortunate that the LSA database does not seem to give  
indications about barring, and I suppose that might be because it is  
very difficult to be sure whether the barring is original or not. The  
same is true of the catalogue of the Musée de la Musique here in  
Paris, although the X-ray photos and some photos of the inside of  
tables, do allow you to see the present state of the barring.


Sterling
  I understand that the fan barring on the 1755 Widhalm in  
Nuremberg (with the triple-extension after Jauck) WAS historic- 
original, and that is why Grant Tomlinson altered Benjamin's Widhalm  
from J-barring to fan-barring. It was to correct it from a historic  
point of view. If your 1764 Martin Brunner which is very similar to  
the Jauch extension, also has fan-barring, then one would suppose  
Widhalm might always have used such barring on his own lutes (at  
least with such extensions). I wonder whether his two Maler  
transformations (which look to be swan necked, but I might be wrong  
there) also have fan-barring or whether he kept the original barring,  
or something similar:

after 1615 [?]
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? 
PID=143

before 1550 [1740?]
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? 
PID=144


	Now, considering that barring goes together with a specific  
thickness distribution (j-barring thick at the edge, fan-barring  
thick towards the bridge) how do you go about changing one to the  
other without changing the table? I don't know whether GT changed  
both the barring and the table, or just the barring.
Well this is a question for any lute-maker I suppose, rather than any  
lute player.

Anthony

Le 15 janv. 09 à 02:25, sterling price a écrit :

I have a Widhalm that does have fan-barring and a soundboard  
carefully thicknessed as the original (assuming that the original  
has not been altered over the years). It also has a bass extension  
based on the 1764 Martin Brunner which is very similar to the Jauch  
extension. This pegbox, as you all know, helps with the transition  
of sound for the basses. This lute is much louder than my  
Burkholzer, but its also a bit bigger.  I am still experimenting  
with strings, and was thinking of trying gut soon.


--Sterling






-- 
---


Had this been the case, I presume that Grant Tomlinson 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Benjamin and Markus

Le 14 janv. 09 à 10:49, Markus Lutz a écrit :

 Miguel has told me something about different barring of French  
 eleven course lutes and later baroque lutes. So that might also be  
 a difference of sound. Maybe others can say something on that.
 Unfortunately I also haven't been able to test that ...

 Best regards,
 Markus

There have been discussions on the issue of barring (fan versus J- 
barring) on this list, but I don't think there is any automatic  
relation between swan-necks and fan-barring, and rider lutes with J- 
barring.
It might be difficult to be sure, as many such lutes may have been  
retabled and rebarred at some time.

I think there may be several theories about the reasons fro the  
development of fan-barring.

Hypothesis 1, mechanic: Stephen Gottlieb told me that fan-barring  
developed simply to counteract the pulling force that additional  
number of strings apply to the sound-board through the bridge.

Hypothesis 2, musical, increased bass: both increasing the bass  
courses and adopting fan barring were part of the same research into  
the bass register (plumbing the depths) in late German Baroque music.  
Removing the J-bar releases more bass resonance, possibly at the  
expense of some clarity. The fan barring allows the table to move  
almost as a piston, which could reinforce the fundamental, while the  
J-bar would tend to break-up the fundamental into its components  
waves giving richer harmonics.

Wolfgang Emmerich said the following : Generally the j-bars on  
Renaissance lutes were used to break the bass into its treble-parts  
to keep the leading role especially of the chantarelle  - to have an  
optimal balance between treble and bass. With fan-barring the bass  
gets stronger and accordingly treble loses  in relation towards a  
stronger bass. But in baroque music it must have been more important  
to revel  in chords.

van Edwards : Internally, the barring structure behind the bridge  
was altered by these makers. Starting with an increase in the number  
of little treble-side fan bars, finally the characteristic J bar on  
the bass side of the renaissance lutes was removed and various kinds  
of fan-barring were introduced right across this area of the  
soundboard. These seem to have the effect of increasing the bass  
response. The main transverse bars were also made slightly smaller  
and more even in height, maybe with the same intention.

Don't lest us forget that the thickness of the soundboard is  
distributed differently with both barring types: generally, I  
believe,  with fan-barring, the soundboard is thicker towards the  
bridge and to the middle; while with J-
barring, the soundboard is thicker on the edges and thinner to the  
middle. I imagine, if this is so, it could also play a role in  
determining the way the resonances are amplified by the movement of   
the soundboard.
It is possible that if it is thicker to the middle, some of the more  
complex wave patterns might be damped, while if it is thinner in the  
middle, perhaps a more complex pattern can develop.

Hypothesis 2 would suggest that it would be likely to find swan- 
necked lutes with fan barring, as both tend to reinforce the bass  
register.
Hypothesis 1 might suggest that fan-barring would be likely on any  
lute with a large number of courses, be they swannecked or rider,  
depending on the tension at which the strings were kept.

Hypothesis 3 musical, increased sustain : Bailes tells us in lute  
news No 81 that old lutes with mature wood (so beloved by French  
Baroque and even later German Baroque lutenists) give much more  
sustain than new lutes can hope to do (unless possibly they have  
their tables loaded with salts, Mimmo Peruffo). Around 1730, there  
could have been a penury of such lutes, if so, perhaps lute-makers  
attempted to discover a new way of obtaining this sustain by altering  
the barring. It seems that fan-barring does give greater sustain, but  
in some cases at the expense of clarity.

Michael Bocchicchio said in relation to the question concerning the  
Rauwolf fan-barring

 Thinning the edges of a sound board and leaving the center thicker  
( approx. 1.8 mm at center tapering to 1.3 at edges) does cause the  
sound board to act as or similar to a
speaker cone.  It stands to reason that fan bracing would lend itself  
to this type of thicknessing. With this type of thicknessing and fan  
bracing, the sound board resonates more like a singe plate causing a  
more homogeneous sustained sound with fewer partials. ---Very  
pleasing to the modern ear.

(Mimmo Peruffo told me that he had made two 13c Baroque lutes that  
were identical except that one had fan barring, and the other J- 
barring. In the case of the fan-barring he found the basses were too  
free and unbalanced and out of control.)

However, this does not always the case, Jakob Lindberg says that his  
Rauwolf has excellent sustain and clarity (but it is also an 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Le Fameux Corsair

[Anthony Hind]

Oups the dates don't work. I should have checked. I did not think a  
corsair could have been post Weiss.

In that case, it must be the following:

René Duguay-Trouin

René Duguay-Trouin was born in Saint-Malo in 1673, and the son of a  
rich ship owner took a fleet of 64 ships and was honoured in 1709 for  
capturing more than 300 merchant ships and 20 warships. He had a  
brilliant privateering and naval career and eventually became  
Lieutenant-General of the Naval Armies of the King, i.e., admiral,  
(French:Lieutenant-Général des armées navales du roi), and a  
Commander in the Order of Saint-Louis. He died peacefully in 1736.

Anthony



Le 12 janv. 09 à 15:34, Anthony Hind a écrit :

I would think the most famous, and also the last French Corsair  
would have been Surcouf:$


I found this about him in wikipedia (although I always treat this  
source with caution, and I have not counterchecked it)

Anthony


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsair

Robert Surcouf

Robert Surcouf was the last and best known corsair of Saint-Malo.  
Born in Saint-Malo in 1773, his father was a ship owner and his  
mother the daughter of a Captain. Ship's boy at 13 and corsair  
captain at 22 years old, and then — very much against his licence —  
for several years attacked ships including those of the French East  
India Company, or Compagnie Française des Indes. During the French  
revolution, the convention government disapproved of lettres de  
course, so Surcouf operated at great personal risk as a pirate  
against British shipping to India. Surcouf was so successful that  
he became a popular celebrity in France. After a brief early  
retirement Surcouf again operated against shipping to the Indes.  
Surcouf became a ship owner himself and died in Saint-Malo in 1827.  
There is a statue of him on public display.



Le 10 janv. 09 à 05:35, Edward Martin a écrit :


The sonata in F major by SL Weiss in the London MS has a strange
title.  The work is also included in the Dresden MS, but is not  
entitled Le

Fameux Corsair.

Does anyone have information as to the identity of the famous  
pirate ?


ed




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Le Fameux Corsair

[Anthony Hind]

I forgot to say surely it must be  Duguay-Trouin.
Anthony

Le 12 janv. 09 à 17:26, Anthony Hind a écrit :

Michel Cardin being both a French speaker and a specialist on  
Weiss, of course I bow to his greater knowledge, but wasn't  
Blackbeard a pirate, in modern French, Corsair is very much  
Privateer, not pirate.

And why would Weiss use the French tittle for Blackbeard?
As I said in my other message, Surcouf is of course too late, which  
quite surprised me. I copied the Wikipedia without looking at the  
dates. I hadn't realized that France used Corsairs so late.

Anthony

Le 12 janv. 09 à 16:00, Markus Lutz a écrit :


Dear Edward,
Michel Cardin gives two names in his description:
http://www.slweiss.de/London_unv/ge_3Description.pdf

Of the more than ninety sonatas known to have been composed by  
Weiss, only The Infidel and no 22 were given poetic titles. As  
suggested by Douglas Alton Smith, the pirate in question was, in  
all probability, Blackbeard (Edward Teach), whose life and  
spectacular
death in 1718 were subject to intense journalistic coverage during  
the lifetime of Weiss. Another candidate would have been René  
Duguay-Trouin, a privateer of the same period who

excelled in swashbuckling bravado of the same sort.

Also in the end of the 17th century the first books on pirates  
appeared:

Alexandre Olivier Exquemelin, Histoire des Frères de la Côte (1699)
Daniel Defoe, Life, Adventures and Piracies of Captain Singleton  
(1720)


The first one were translated to German and English very soon.  
Probably Defoe would be too late, as Fameaux Corsaire probably  
was written 1720   or in the beginning of 1721.


Best regards
Markus


Anthony Hind schrieb:
I would think the most famous, and also the last French Corsair  
would have been Surcouf:$
I found this about him in wikipedia (although I always treat this  
source with caution, and I have not counterchecked it)

Anthony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsair
Robert Surcouf
Robert Surcouf was the last and best known corsair of Saint-Malo.  
Born in Saint-Malo in 1773, his father was a ship owner and his  
mother the daughter of a Captain. Ship's boy at 13 and corsair  
captain at 22 years old, and then — very much against his licence  
— for several years attacked ships including those of the French  
East India Company, or Compagnie Française des Indes. During the  
French revolution, the convention government disapproved of  
lettres de course, so Surcouf operated at great personal risk as  
a pirate against British shipping to India. Surcouf was so  
successful that he became a popular celebrity in France. After a  
brief early retirement Surcouf again operated against shipping to  
the Indes. Surcouf became a ship owner himself and died in Saint- 
Malo in 1827. There is a statue of him on public display.

Le 10 janv. 09 à 05:35, Edward Martin a écrit :

The sonata in F major by SL Weiss in the London MS has a strange
title.  The work is also included in the Dresden MS, but is not  
entitled Le

Fameux Corsair.

Does anyone have information as to the identity of the famous  
pirate ?


ed




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202




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--

Markus Lutz
Schulstraße 11

88422 Bad Buchau

Tel  0 75 82 / 92 62 89
Fax  0 75 82 / 92 62 90
Mail mar...@gmlutz.de

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Le Fameux Corsair

[Anthony Hind]

Oh well, I just thought of searching specifically for Fameux  
corsaire barbe Barbe Noire, and I found that things are less clear  
than I fist thought.


In a text from figaro international, Barbe Noire is constantly called  
pirate,  le plus redoutable pirate, but it seems that he started  
out as a corsaire (privateer):
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/ 
2009/01/31/01003-20090131ARTFIG00097-barbe-noire-le-diable-fumant-.php
il s'engage de 1702 à 1713, durant la guerre de succession  
d'Espagne, sur un bâtiment corsaire anglais au service de la reine  
Anne.


So he was first a privateer and then a pirate. So it could be either  
man as Michel Cardin is right to say.
Indeed, both  (Black beard/Duguay-Trouin) seem to have been engaged  
as Corsaires (privateers) in the War of Succession, on opposing sides


Where would Weiss' sympathy lie, perhaps there might be a clue there?  
(probably with the alliance against France?)
On the other hand, there is that best selling account of Duguay- 
Trouin's exploits, so without more evidence...


In more popular texts, I found that corsaire and pirate are indeed  
confused, but would Weiss not have used the more savante expression  
(court French)?
If it was Barbe Noire, Weiss would surely be referring to his first  
career as privateer?


Best wishes
Anthony


Le 12 janv. 09 à 22:01, Bernd Haegemann a écrit :





Quite so, but he is not a corsair,


Corsaire. s. m. Pirate, escumeur de mer

from
Dictionnaire de L'Académie française, 1st Edition (1694)

best wishes
Bernd


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: damping of basses

[Anthony Hind]

Sorry like David, replied to the wrong list

Dear Chris and All,
According to Miguel Serdoura (p111-123) in his Baroque lute  
method, there is one explicit mention of damping in Mace (1676). He  
indicates the damping of a note with two small dots before it., and  
calls this effect Tut.
The tut is a Grace always with the Right hand ... strike your  
Letter, (which you intend shall be so Grac'd) with one of your  
Fingers, and immediately clap on your next striking Finger, in doing  
you suddenly take away the sound of the Letter ... Mace
Miguel goes on to say In the works of Adam Falckenhagen and Johann- 
Georg Weichenberger, we find the sign (//) which, in our opinion,  
indicates the same effect.
Miguel considers that French musicians also used this technique, but  
preferred not to give indications, keeping as much as possible to  
themselves.


Miguel can't believe that harpsichordists used damping and sustain,  
but that lutists completely ignored this practice.


As to whether the use of wirewound and pure gut makes a difference,  
MS cites tests showing that where wirewounds have a sustain of about  
6 to 8 seconds, pure gut has about 2 to 3 seconds (loaded somewhere  
between, about  4 to 6, I would guess). Even so, Miguel argues that  
this is still too long in passages in which the harmony may change in  
a fraction of a second.


I have heard pieces damped that seem to become too stacatto (loss of  
liason), and damping should not necessarilly be used just to avoid a  
clash (the clash might be desirable). However, a judicious use of  
damping could be part of the lute players panoply. Those who want to  
verify Miguel's theory could listen to his latest recording, and see  
whether he has used damping to good effect.

Bets wishes to all
Anthony

Le 1 janv. 09 à 16:54, chriswi...@yahoo.com a écrit :


I don't know whether its a modern practice.  Absence
of written evidence may mean that it was done so often
that it didn't need mentioning.

Even with modern strings, I'm becoming convinced that
we fixate on it a little too much.  It is much more
obvious for the player than for the listener.  Since
the lute has such a quick attack and rapid sustain,
what a player imagines sounding like an out of control
pedaled grand piano often sounds pleasantly resonant
to someone in front of the lute, even up close.  This
is particularly true for fairly slow moving lines or
bass parts that move in thirds, fourths or fifths.

I'm speaking of maybe 60-75% of general bass parts.
One still has to put in the effort to articulate a
line for musical reasons, however.  If its appropriate
to the character of a bass line we often have to go to
considerable lengths to keep it from sounding like a
nondescript legato mush.  In sections in which the
Affekt calls for a staccato character and there are a
lot of leaps, its a real workout for the thumb!

Chris


--- Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com wrote:


I believe it is a modern practice, to utilize the
damping effect.  I though
here actually is a mention in the Gallot
instructions about damping basses,
but (I believe we discussed this on this list 10
years ago) I had read this
in a modern translation, and others pointed out that
the translation into
English was faulty, so my previous argument in favor
of finding a reference
to damping was wrong.

So, to answer your question, the old treatises do
not mention damping
basses, anywhere.  Yes, I think it is a modern
practice, to help deal with
wound metal bass course, which have too much
brightness and sustain,
requiring we must do something to tame them down.

Since about 1995, I have played only gut on baroque
lute, and I have
forgotten how to dampen basses, because it is
absolutely unnecessary.

Happy NY to you, too!

ed



At 02:36 PM 1/1/2009 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote:


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Could it be that the damping of bass strings for

baroque lute, to

which much attention is given in many if not all

modern methods for

the baroque lute, is a 20th century phenomenon that

has to do with

modern bass strings? Or are there historical

sources mentioning this

practice?

David - happy 2009 to all. Here's my card:


http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/homepage_p.html


--
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier

[Anthony Hind]

	Having just discussed the tempo of La Cascade, with a friend who  
argued that it should not be too slow or you could lose the 'mimetic'  
cascading effect, I rather supposed le tocsein, as a gigue, might  
contain a mimetic rhythmic element.


However, I just had a message from Jean-Daniel Forget on this subject:
First he tells me, le tocsein, is the sound of a single bell struck  
rapidly: about two forced beats per second (according to the length  
and size of the clapper), giving a monochord sound that immediately  
draws attention. This was exactly my impression, and it reminds me  
that I have heard it in several French films.


Then J-D, suggests that the evocative element, if there is one, would  
not be a direct reference to the rhythm of the tocsein, but should  
rather  be looked for in terms of the tocsein as a (metaphoric)  
reference to  sentiments amoureux, possibly the palpitating  heart- 
beat (batant la chamade) of the lover thinking of his belle, or  
of the alert of the cuckolded lover.


(J-D goes on to give an example of an expression prescieux using  
the term 'tocsein', but saying (in an appropriately prescieux  
manner) he would prefer not refer to the quotation that Pierre  
Desproges attributed to Cardinal de Richelieu, when complimenting the  
beauty of a  dame de la cour : Madame, si ma robe était de plomb,  
vous entendriez sonner le tocsin !).
Madame, if my robe was made of lead, you would still hear sonner le  
tocsin.


J'ai toujours pense, en jouant ces pieces, que la reference va  
plutot vers un sentiment amoureux et doit être cherchee dans la Carte  
du Tendre
(comme dans presque toutes les pieces de cette epoque, d'ailleurs) ;  
par exemple, ce pourrait etre le cœur battant la
chamade de l'amoureux pensant a sa belle ou l'alerte de l'amant  
trompe! (Je me garderai bien de faire reference a la
citation que Pierre Desproges attribuait au Cardinal de Richelieu  
faisant compliment a la beaute d'une dame de la cour :
Madame, si ma robe etait de plomb, vous entendriez sonner le  
tocsin !).   J-D


J-D, however, then goes on to say that without the presence of a  
text, all speculation is possible.

Anthony



Le 30 déc. 08 à 11:16, Anthony Hind a écrit :

I agree that the gigue form, in French lute music could have  
determined the degree of imitation possible when evoking the  
tocsein. It might nevertheless be interesting to discover exactly  
what the rhythm of the bell-toll might have been that could have  
been imitated. I found this definition: Tintement d’une cloche à  
coups pressés et redoublés pour donner l’alarme, pour avertir du  
feu, etc.  (so fast and double); however, I also found that the  
tocsein could have been originally given on a drum, and perhaps  
later was used for other warning notes
probably originally meant a signal given by tap of drum, but  
subsequently always applied to a flourish or fanfare on a trumpet. 

http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/270732
Anthony


Le 30 déc. 08 à 06:02, damian dlugolecki a écrit :



I quite agree with Jorge Torres.  After playing these pieces for a  
while it really seems to me the accents are duple; accent on the  
1st note of each semi-breve.


DD

Dear list:

A few thoughts concerning the French duple-meter gigue.

1) The two examples of Toxin are not in 4/4 there is no time  
signature
given.  They are probably both in Binarie mineur or cut time or  
2/2,

again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in
his pieces, p. 16-19.  This makes a huge difference in the way we
would play them.

2) In this repertoire, Allemandes and Gigues are, at times, almost
indistinguishable, as evidenced by Perrine's distinction between an
allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19

3)  There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be played
very fast.

4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm (6/8
or 12/8).  The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the canarie

5) It is very likely that notes inegales were used in these pieces,
but to insist on them throughout the piece in order to change the
rhythm to something that sounds more like 6/8 or 12/8 seems pedantic
to me.

All the best,
Jorge Torres

On Dec 28, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote:


I would imagine it could be binary.


Both Tocxin by Denis Gaultier and Toxin by Charles Mouton are  
gigues  in

4/4 metre. I'd go so far as to say that there's a relationship
discernible between the pieces of master and student in that  
both  gigues

have a very similar opening motif and both share the same rhythmic
pattern in each measure of their respective second halves, i. e.  
with
the bass note off-beat on 2nd half of 1st beat. That repeated  
bass  note

even being a 4 in both pieces (notwithstanding that it means B with
Gaultier, C sharp with Mouton).

With what I heard with Froberger gigues transferred to these 4/4   
gigues,

you would play them extremely inegale, IOW amounts of crotchets as
sharpened

[BAROQUE-LUTE] 2 Baroque Lute recordings

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Lutenists
 In the last month I have received two excellent Baroque lute
CDs, that very nicely complement each other. Both contain music by
Kellner, but the pieces do not overlap, and while Ed Martin's CD also
contains music by Conradi, in Miguel Serdoura's CD there is music by
well known French lutenists, E. Gautier and J. Gallot, but also Les
Baricades Mysterieueses by Francois Couperin. This can be played on
13c lute with little or no alteration. There are also two interesting
pieces by the Saint-Luc, along side two better known pieces by Weiss.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GugCgg1pL._SS400_.jpg
Extracts can be heard at
http://tinyurl.com/8zlqup

I do not want to compare these records, except to say that Ed Martin
is playing on a gut strung Frei style lute, which Dan Larson baroqued
from 7c to 11c, just as happened in the Baroque period. The recording
has been made by sound engineer, Jakob Larson (a member of the Larson
family?); and it succeeds in bringing out the subtle warm clarity of
Ed's gut-string playing. I rather suppose J L has a close knowledge
of lutes which has enabled him to make such an excellent recording:
at last a lute recording that sounds like a lute, not like an
amplified mandolin.

Miguel Serdoura is playing with nylgut and Aquila nylgut wirewounds;
however, his technique of damping the basses described on p.122 to
123 of his method, are such that I find no problem at all with basses
drowning the other voices (as so often seems to happen with
wirewounds). The sound engineer, Jiri Heger, works frequently with
small Baroque ensembles, such as those of William Christie,
http://www.musica-numeris.com/LEquipe/Lesing%C3%A9nieursduson/
Collaborateursr%C3%A9guliers/JiriHeger/tabid/175/language/en-US/
Default.aspx
and again, he seems to have had the necessary understanding of lute
sound, not to blur, in anyway, the pearl-like flowing clarity of
Miguel's playing.
I understand that little or no reverb was added, and only a slight
frequency tweaking was necessary to bring out the speed of the
initial attack, which was present on earphones, but slightly less so
on lofi speaker based systems.

I highly recommend both CDs, but do not want to try to compare the
style of these two lutenists. I would prefer to add some anecdotes to
show how both records pleasantly surprised the ears of some non-
specialists.

Ed Martin's CD:
Just as I received Ed Martin's CD, I had to leave Paris for a small
village 70 miles from Paris. While I was playing Ed's record to my
daughter, three of her local friends happened to drop in. All three
became very intent, wanting to know exactly what this beautiful music
could be: the composer, the instrument, etc. I found out later that
the young lady was an advanced viola student, while another was a
self taught rock and folk guitarist, but they did not have any deep
knowledge of lute music.
When it was mentioned that I had an 11c lute, similar to the one they
were hearing, they immediately wanted to see it, expressing amazement
at its lightness and beauty, but also admiration that this was the
type of instrument that could play such beautiful music.
I think the fact that Ed's playing moved this small group of non
specialists, tells us more about his record than would any words from
a lute amateur, such as myself.

Miguel's CD:
Just before I left Paris, I received the following message from a
great friend and colleague in linguistics, who is also a melomane
and audiophile, very partial to his Couperin, and to French Baroque
lute music.
  I have asked his permission to convey his message to you.


Paris, 22 decembre 2008

Dear Anthony,

Many thanks for the lovely record by Miguel Serdoura. As I told
you, I knew all the pieces,  included here, fairly well -with the
exception of the two lovely pieces by Jacques de Saint-Luc- but of
course Couperin's 'les baricades mysterieueses', the sixth piece of
his sixieme ordre, is probably one of the best known harpsichord
works of 18th century French music; however, I had never actually
heard it played on the lute and I was particularly impressed by
Serdoura's interpretation. As with all the other pieces in the
record, he plays it rather more slowly than all previous
interpretations known to me, and maybe because of that, with extreme
'retenue' and elegance. The same is true of his rendering of Ennemond
Gaultier's very well-known 'la cascade', which I also very much like.
This is much in the spirit of Hopkinson Smith's interpretation, I
find; although again Serdoura plays more slowly (by almost three
minutes actually, I just checked) and if possible, with even more
subtle 'retenue' than 'the baricades mysterieueses'. The dominant
impression of the record as a whole is for me one of nostalgic
elegance, well suited to my present mood and so pleasantly at odds
with the present scene, musical or otherwise!

Very best,

Jean-Yves

Jean-Yves personally told me how much he had enjoyed this record, 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Miguel Serdoura's Lute Method

[Anthony Hind]

Jim
According to Miguel the new edition contains corrections and other 
improvements. I have the old version, and I will probably buy the new 
one, and use the old one as my working copy, on which I will allow 
myself to pencil in LH indications.

Anthony

Le mardi, 2 déc 2008, à 21:12 Europe/Paris, Jim Abraham a écrit :


I have the first version, from the French lute society, which I think
is almost identical to the new, English, version, and I think it is
excellent.

Jim

On 12/2/08, Ken Brodkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi All,

I'm wondering if anyone has had a chance to go through Miguel 
Serdoura's
Baroque lute method and can make some comments about it. I'm 
considering

purchasing it. I do have Satoh's method and Giesbert as well.

Thanks!

Ken



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque lute method

[Anthony Hind]

I forgot to give you the mailing address through which the method can  
be bought.
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AH

Le 17 oct. 08 à 21:16, Anthony Hind a écrit :

 Dear lutenists
  Miguel Serdoura's Baroque lute method will be out again in  
 November, at Ut Orpheus

 Baroque Lute Method - 356 pages. Paris, 2008, Ut Orpheus.
 Available in November 2008, in English and in French.
 Price : 70€
 Order : www.utorpheus.com

 Anthony


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque lute method

[Anthony Hind]

Dear lutenists
 Miguel Serdoura's Baroque lute method will be out again in  
November, at Ut Orpheus


Baroque Lute Method - 356 pages. Paris, 2008, Ut Orpheus.
Available in November 2008, in English and in French.
Price : 70€
Order : www.utorpheus.com

Anthony


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: record/method

[Anthony Hind]

Jim
Miguel replies that there are a lot of small but important  
corrections !
Also, the quality of the printing is incomparablyt better !

Anthony

Le 24 août 08 à 03:25, Jim Abraham a écrit :

I was lucky enough to have ordered the first edition from the  
 French
Lute Society almost immediately after release, before its untimely
demise in anticipation of the new, bilingual, edition. Will the  
 second
edition be identical to the first (aside from the language)?

Regards,

Jim
On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Anthony Hind [1] 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

  Dear Baroque lutists
   Miguel Serdoura has given me the follwing message to
  transmit to you:
  _
  Barricades Mysterieuses - The first solo recording of Miguel
  Serdoura
  will be available in November 2008 on the Deutch Label Brilliant
  Classics ([2]www.brilliantclassics.com) The repertoire of this
  recording
  will be dedicated to the Chaconnes, Passacailles and Rondos of  
 the
  French lute composers Ennemond Gautier, Jacques Gallot, Franc,ois
  Couperin, the Belgian Jacques de Saint-Luc, and the German lute
  composers Silvius Leopold Weiss and David Kellner. You can  
 order it
  by e-mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  _
  Baroque Lute Method - by Miguel Serdoura. - A practical guide for
  beginning and advanced lutenists - Paris, 2007. 356 pages.
  A new edition will be available by the Italian Editor UT ORPHEUS
  ([4]www.utorpheus.com) in October / November 2008, in English  
 and in
  French ! You can order it by e-mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  Anthony
  --
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  [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

 References

1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
2. http://www.brilliantclassics.com/
3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
4. http://www.utorpheus.com/
5. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] record/method

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Baroque lutists
  Miguel Serdoura has given me the follwing message to transmit to you:
_

Barricades Mystérieuses - The first solo recording of Miguel Serdoura  
will be available in November 2008 on the Deutch Label Brilliant  
Classics (www.brilliantclassics.com) The repertoire of this recording  
will be dedicated to the Chaconnes, Passacailles and Rondos of the  
French lute composers Ennemond Gautier, Jacques Gallot, François  
Couperin, the Belgian Jacques de Saint-Luc, and the German lute  
composers Silvius Léopold Weiss and David Kellner. You can order it  
by e-mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

_

Baroque Lute Method - by Miguel Serdoura. - A practical guide for  
beginning and advanced lutenists - Paris, 2007. 356 pages.
A new edition will be available by the Italian Editor UT ORPHEUS  
(www.utorpheus.com) in October / November 2008, in English and in  
French ! You can order it by e-mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Anthony
--

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Silvius Leopold Weiss: The Silesian Master of Lute

[Anthony Hind]

No, it seems to be a new one, as there is a new critical review of  
it, in the French lute society magazine.

The review is very positive.
Anthony


Le 9 mai 08 à 15:06, Edward Martin a écrit :


I noticed on Amazon what appears to be a new lute recording by Jakob
Lindberg, Silvius Leopold Weiss: The Silesian Master of Lute.  I am
wondering if it is a reprint of his other Weiss record recorded on his
original lute, or if it is new.

Amazon does not say what is on the record.  Does anyone know?

ed



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] lute classes Hopkinson Smith

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Lutists,
I would like to send you a message from Miguel Serdoura, announcing  
a lute class and concert with Hopkinson Smith in Aixe en Provence:

Concert and Training course for lute with Hopkinson Smith, from the  
22nd to the 25th of May 2008 in Aix-en-Provence

Thursday May 22, 2008, concert at 8h30 p.m, at the Musee des Tapisseries
Friday 23, Saturday 24, Sunday May 25 2008, training course
Prices of the training course with the concert : players: 230 Euro  , down  
payment : 110 Euro  ; listeners: 60 Euro , down payment: 30 Euro  ; Obligatory  
adhesion AMAP: 15 Euro 
Free lodging and meals. We will communicat you a list of the hotels  
at the time of your inscription. Information and inscription:  
Ateliers de Musiques Aix-Provence (AMAP) 6 rue Matheron-13100- Aix-en- 
Provence . Tel. : 04 42 63 01 05 /  04 42 38 91 78  ou  06 76 39 79  
55  /  06 21 71 40 80. E-Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Anthony
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQU E-LUTE] de Visée

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
As far as I know, so unhappy with his playing was Pascal Monteilhet  
(or at least, not progressing enough ... I know the feeling), that he  
sold all his lutes and set off for a Pacific island (or similar).
I understand that this was the second time he did something of the  
sort. An intellectual television magazine (oxymoron?) which is often  
associated with French Baroque music and evenents, likened his  
departure to that of Rimbaud or of Gaugin:

  fff Telerama - Robert de Visee - Monteilhet

. Le francais Pascal Monteilhet a beaucoup oeuvre pour la  
renaissance du theorbe. Aujourd'hui comme Rimbaud ou Gauguin, cet  
explorateur-ne s'embarque loin de l'Europe, pour d'autres aventures,  
maritimes et exotiques. Mais il nous laisse un formidable temoignage  
de la noblesse de son instrument et de son repertoire. .. Les suites  
pour theorbe de Robert de Visee se situent dans le sillage hauturier  
de d'Anglebert et de Couperin... Le theorbe  Un animal de haute cour.  
Et cet (ultime) recital? Une balise d'allegresse, un fanal d'espoir.  
Gilles Macassar - Telerama 15 mars 2006 (I removed the accents, I  
think).

But perhaps he has come back. Does anyone know?

Anthony


Le 28 fevr. 08 =E0 17:46, Rob MacKillop a ecrit :

 Strange booklet notes:

 ''...like everyone else, I use strings which do not sound as they  
 should.
 They produce a sound that is admittedly compelling and powerful,  
 but to my
 ears too flashy, indeed vulgar, and which hinders the transmission  
 of the
 discourse.''

 So why do it? - might seem like the obvious question. I guess, like  
 me,
 Pascal prefers gut, but is not satisfied with the current state of gut
 strings. I think string makers have cracked the manufacture of  
 trebles and
 mid-range. Still not convinced about those basses. I hope Mimmo's new
 strings will change our minds. I look forward to trying them  
 someday. Keep
 up the good work, Mimmo and Dan and whoever else is experimenting.

 I wouldn't go so far as to say Pascal's strings sound vulgar, and I  
 wouldn't
 record if that were the case. And I certainly wouldn't rubbish my  
 own sound
 in my own booklet notes. Ah, the French are different...eh, Anthony?

 I saw Pascal in Glasgow once, and he was brilliant. No vulgarity  
 anywhere.

 Rob

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur [Exerciser for aging fingers]

[Anthony Hind]

 should
not be troubling this list - my apologies if this is a breech of  
etiquette


Alan


- Original Message -
From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Stuart Walsh
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; Stephen Arndt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3


Dear Stephen and Martin
Thank you Stephen for sharing this with us. As I am about to begin
attempting to approach this music myself (I have always loved this
repertoire since I heard the Anthony Bailes LP, in the 70s). I can
assure you I would be so pleased to reach this level of musicality in
just one year; and also to be able to master stress in front of the
microphone, as well as you have done, here.

Since semi retirement, I have been up-hill struggling to master the
Renaissance lute. Progress seemed fairly quick at first when I took
up the lute again, but I swiftly hit a plateau, and not at a high
enough level, I feel.
I regularly, go to listen to other amateurs and professionals, once a
month; and I have rarely heard a player succeed in playing a complete
piece without fluffing a note. Most tell us that they were playing
far better a few hours before, at home in their kitchen, or whatever.
Stress in public (even in front of a teacher) and before the
microphone is clearly deadly, and very hard to overcome. Furthermore,
I notice that I have to play around an hour and a half, before I
reach the level I seemed to be at the day before.  Even most advanced
players tell me that this warm-up period is crucial with the lute. It
does not just effect the ability to play the notes, but also the
actual sound quality. You can have played a piece acceptably one day,
and pick up your lute later in front of someone, and be almost
incapable of playing it.

Martin, could the HD2 have some inner programme that raises
sensitivity or narrows the focus of the microphone (from more or less
omni to unidirectional) in relation to its perception of the source
(independently from your control), in order to somehow equalize the
sound level of the recording? Such a programme could explain this
effect (I seemed to get more finger (thumb) noise at larger
distances).
Best wishes
Anthony






Le 21 févr. 08 à 10:18, Martin Shepherd a écrit :


Dear Stephen,

Thanks for sharing this with us - lovely music, a nice-sounding   
lute and
played with great feeling, what more could we want?   Except more  
of the

same...

I share your (and Stuart's) frustrations with this music - it is  
so  full

of detail, and I find the Allemandes the most difficult of  all.  I'm
amazed you've only been playing this lute a year: I know  from my own
experience that just because it's a lute and the music  is in nice
friendly French tab you think it's going to be easy, but  it takes  
a long
time to become really familiar with the tuning and  its associated  
chord
shapes, quite apart from all the other details  you have to  
contend with.
Though the nice thing about the Barbe MS  is the thoroughness with  
which
everything is indicated: RH and LH  fingering, ornaments,  
arpeggiation,
it's all there.  By the way, I  couldn't find this particular  
piece - I

have the facsimile which  only has (modern) page numbers, and page 66
clearly isn't the right  page.

On the recording side, it sounds good but I think with the   
equipment you
have it might be possible to improve it.  I did some  experiments  
with the

Zoom (I'm just using the built-in mics, which  seem to be very good):

I was recording very close (about .5m) and getting a slightly  
boomy  bass.
I also liked the idea of getting more room sound as I was  playing  
in a
room with quite a nice lively acoustic and people  don't normally  
listen

with their head less than two feet from the  lute!  So I did some
systematic experiments comparing distances of . 3, .6, 1.0 and 1.8m,
thinking that the 1.8m distance would give me  a better sound,  
albeit more
background hiss.  I did the same  experiment in two rooms, the  
summer room
(a lively acoustic with  lots of hard surfaces) and the music room  
(much
more sound- absorbing junk and a much drier acoustic).  I was  
surprised to
discover that the bass sound hardly changed at all with distance   
(except

that curiously I seemed to get more finger (thumb) noise at  larger
distances) whereas the treble sound was clearly better at  the short
distances, becoming more metallic as I got further away.   This  
was not at
all what I expected, but I labelled everything  carefully and  
normalized
the results so that overall volume didn't  feature in the  
comparison, so
I'm sure it was a fair test.  The  other thing was that the drier  
acoustic
seemed to give a more  balanced sound.  Warmed up with a little  
reverb
from the computer,  it's fine.  I suppose that my conclusion is  
that you
can't take  anything for granted in this recording business - the  
only

real  test is a test

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3 Newish direction

[Anthony Hind]

Alan
	If you are in the situation I was when beginning to play again, it  
is more a question of getting your hands back into a supple enough  
state to be able to do lute exercises.
The index of my left finger after one or two exercises would click,  
and then a sort of burning sensation would appear.


I did all sorts of finger exercises without lute: just finger  
exercises or movement with those Chinese balls that are supposed to  
cure rheumatism. It helped slightly, but then I found an exerciser  
called the Gripmaster.
It was created by a trumpeter, and looks like it; you can work each  
finger separately. Don't even bother working them all together. This  
appears to have cured the problem with my index finger.
Of course it is no replacement for finger exercises on the lute,  
which both strengthen and teach you the special coordination needed.  
It may be of no use whatsoever to a younger person who has always  
played and kept in trim.


It is not just a question of strengthening the fingers, however; it  
does seem to give more control. The fingers become more supple and  
progressively springy (shock absorbers?), and something happens to  
the pads of the finger tips, which seem to become more squidgy. The  
tops of each piston is a slightly patterned plastic. This seems to  
alter the texture of the skin slightly, giving a smoother surface.  
After using it for a minute or so, the sound from the lute seems to  
become less scratchy.
The only thing is not to overuse it, like any exercise, as then it  
hinders play. Just moderate use, helps you to warm up the muscles,  
and gets me playing more quickly.


I have given it up, several times, thinking I no longer had use for  
it, but I think I have always slipped back slightly. It exists in  
various strengths, and is used by shooters, climbers, trumpeters, and  
some guitarists.
At first sight, it would be more useful for guitarists who need to  
hold down more tension, some like it some don't.


I lost mine on a trip out somewhere. I immediately bought another  
one. I have the red (medium high)and blue one (medium low) good for  
the little finger, but mainly use the red one.
Sometimes I use the blue one before the red, and then after the red,  
when I think about being very cautious, warming up, and warming down,  
as it were.


Be careful, the black one is also red, but with more black on it, and  
that might be too powerful for strengthening little fingers, etc.


Actually, I just looked at the reviews on Musiciansfriend.com and I  
couldn't find any negative remarks, but I do remember reading some  
previously.


Here is a positive one from an older guitarist : My speed and  
accuracy increased and, also being an older musician I had no fatigue  
or cramping in my fingers as I usually have. 


I must insist that this is just my personal experience, and the same  
exerciser might be a disaster for someone else, perhaps even doing  
damage, or just no additional help if you are already in good form.


There are also books on general exercises specifically aimed at  
musicians. I bought one in French, Education physique preventive  
pour les musiciens

from http://www.arts-medicine.com/eng/indexeng.php?rub=3;
but there must be ones in English.
Anthony

Le 26 févr. 08 à 05:47, Ed Durbrow a écrit :



On Feb 22, 2008, at 7:46 PM, Alan Hoyle wrote:
So... might I ask if anyone out there can suggest good ways of  
spending the
first half hour or so of practice time so that, like Anthony, I  
don't have

to spend all my precious playing time trying prevent my playing
deteriorating once again, but might actually see some progress.


First of all, I'd say be your own teacher. Nobody knows better than  
your self what your hands need. It is a matter of tuning in to your  
body, knowing your weak points and finding ways to exercise them.


There have been some hand outs at LSA seminars of exercises by Paul  
Odette and Robert Barto. There are probably many finger exercises  
available on the web for guitarists that could be adapted for lute.


You can take almost anything from any piece and make an exercise  
out of it. One thing I  would recommend is to play just the right  
hand alone and work on a passage, paying attention to what the  
fingers are doing, tone, attack, relaxation, speed etc. You can  
make a pattern of it and do it on different strings. Then do that  
with the left hand. Circle the problem spots in a piece, extract  
them and make exercises out of them. Do NOT look at the music! Look  
at your hand (one at a time), then don't look at your hand and do  
it with your eyes closed, maintaining a relaxed and upright posture.


I'm starting to go on a bit. I'll shut up. I'm sure others will  
have lots of suggestions.


Oh, one other thing. The mother of all teachers is a recording device.

Ed Durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/luteinfo.html
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/




To get on or off 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur [Exerciser for aging fingers]

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
	Yes I knew I would receive this message. That is why I have never  
mentioned it before; but I was careful to say it has nothing to do  
with strength, but everything to do with suppleness, and control. It  
seems to make the joints more flexible. I have naturally very  
unsupple fingers, which I find hard to bend back. Again it may depend  
on each person's hand structure.
I notice that it is used by marksmen to control their trigger finger,  
surely not for additional strength but for control (slow controlled  
movement).there is also this curious change to the end of the fingers  
after using it.


I have hesitated between using it and not using it, but finally  
always seem to find an improvement after using it for a short time.
Apart from anything else, it certainly seemed to have cured the  
inflamed index finger.


I also said that it does not replace any of the lute exercises,  
scales or whatever, and most younger players, probably do not need it.


Le 26 févr. 08 à 13:21, Rob MacKillop a écrit :

In my experience, students tend to use ten times the amount of  
pressure and

energy than required, so when I see talk of finger strengtheners I get
worried. The great classical guitarist, David Russell, taught me an
invaluable lesson in this regard. Put your left hand index finger  
on any
note, say for example the fifth fret of the first string. Don't  
press it
down yet, just touch it with the fingertip. Start continuously  
plucking the
string. Obviously you get a muted note. Now slowly start adding  
pressure as
you move the string towards the fingerboard. Soon the note will  
sound well.
At that point, start decreasing the pressure back to where you  
started. You
are teaching your muscles to apply the minimum pressure needed to  
fret a

note. My bet it is that it is a LOT less pressure than you are used to
applying. Now try it with other fingers. Then try playing a scale  
without
open strings with this same technique. Go up and down the scale a  
few times
from zero pressure to just enough and back again. Do this at the  
start of

every practice session. Worked for me.

Your fingers are more than strong enough.

Rob

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur [Exerciser for aging fingers]

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
Had I wanted to do a Schuman on you, I would have suggested this  
contraption,
http://tinyurl.com/2uv88o

However, I was addressing Alan Hoyle, who is no beginner in a hurry  
to make progress, but apparently in a similar state to how I was,  
struggling not to go backwards.
 In some cases,
it's simply a matter of stiffer joints lacking the necessary  
nimbleness; but
I think that there is something else: perhaps the muscle-memory is less
efficient in a 60 year-old than one half his age.

The Gripmaster could only help with the first half of this sentence.  
I agree with the second part and can see no cure for that except more  
exercises on the lute.

Nevertheless, to be positive, I regularly see a man of seventy, who  
as a Doctor had little time to play while he had his practise, but  
since retirement he now puts in five hours a day.
I have definitely seen him improve in the last two years. Yet, he  
tells me he has never done a lute exercise in his life.
Regards
Anthony





Le 26 fevr. 08 =E0 14:18, Rob MacKillop a ecrit :

 OK, Anthony. I'm sure you are sensitive to what is required, and I  
 am pleased that you are finding progress and improvement. Others  
 might not be so - dare I say - intelligent in their use of it,  
 especially younger students hoping to play fast.

 The ghost of Schumann enters Stage Left...

 Rob


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur [ finger tip feed back]

[Anthony Hind]

	Interesting your finger tips feed-back idea. It is often said that  
blind people make sensitive musicians because of their increased  
sense of hearing, but perhaps it is just as much to do with their  
increased sense of touch.
After reading Matthew Wadsworths article on learning music by heart.  
I tried closing my eyes after reading a tablature passage, and then  
trying to play it from memory (of which I have little); and I was  
very surprised to find that my fingers seemed to know better where to  
go than I did. Perhaps we should play more often with our eyes shut  
to develop this sense


I suppose this might explain the skills of a deaf musician such as  
Evelyn Glenny, who apparently plays barefooted so she can feel the  
vibrations for her cues on stage and no doubt the feedback from her  
percussion instruments; apparently there are also a number of  deaf  
pianist who must use this sensitivity to the feel of sound wave  
pressure to monitor their playing.


	As you well know, one of the pleasures from playing with gut, is the  
feel of the texture, and that trigger-like springiness, that gives  
you the impression that you have just that little more control and  
even time before you (well, in my case, if not in yours, that is a  
very nice sensation, time before you). That was also what a tennis  
player told me, as I mentioned here, once before. That little delay,  
as the ball struck the gut, gave him the impression he had time to  
direct the ball, and the resonant sound allowed him to monitor  
whether he had struck it correctly.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I feel any increased suppleness in the finger  
joints, goes in that same direction, shock absorbers; but that could  
lead us back to Schumacher...

Anthony

Le 26 févr. 08 à 13:36, LGS-Europe a écrit :


Your fingers are more than strong enough.


With pressure, less is more. It is easy to flex a muscle fast. Put  
your hand
in a flame, get stung by a bee or catch a falling lute to try. But  
it takes
time to relax a muscle, we all know that. So to develop speed on a  
lute, we
have to minimize our pressure. I can put down a finger fast enough,  
but I
cannot lift it fast enough. With less pressure, I can lift faster  
and my

speed will improve.
Another reason why less pressure is better: with more pressure we  
feel less.
Left and right hand shape the tone together, the only feedback we  
get before
we actually pluck the string is through the contact of our  
fingertips. If we
use more muscle, we feel less. Keep your sense of touch alive by  
using less
pressure, and your tone will improve if you 'listen' to the  
feedback your

fingertips give you.

David



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [Exerciser for aging fingers]

[Anthony Hind]

Ed
	I am pleased to have triggered so much agreement, although, in none  
of my messages did I mention strength, just keeping ones limbs very  
supple, which I (like Father William) believe is essential for  
relaxation and lack of tension.
Although I must note, that in the exercises, I was given for frozen  
shoulder syndrome, there are two parts: Initially raise the  
shoulders as high as possible in a typical French shoulder shrugging  
gesture (Marabou stork fashion), and secondly lower them as far as  
they will go, while pulling them down as though out of their sockets.  
Following this, of course, when the joint is freer, it becomes  
possible to relax.


What one does before playing to loosen, warm up and prepare oneself  
to play,  might have little to do with what one actually does while  
playing.


in all physical (and even intellectual) activities, economy of  
gesture and elegance is what one should strive not too hard for. I am  
sure we all agree about that.

Anthony



Le 26 févr. 08 à 15:07, Edward Martin a écrit :

I agree.  I also teach the same exercise.  One should play with as  
little

tension as possible, as opposed to use of strength.

ed



At 12:21 PM 2/26/2008 +, Rob MacKillop wrote:

In my experience, students tend to use ten times the amount of  
pressure and
energy than required, so when I see talk of finger strengtheners I  
get

worried. The great classical guitarist, David Russell, taught me an
invaluable lesson in this regard. Put your left hand index finger  
on any
note, say for example the fifth fret of the first string. Don't  
press it
down yet, just touch it with the fingertip. Start continuously  
plucking the
string. Obviously you get a muted note. Now slowly start adding  
pressure as
you move the string towards the fingerboard. Soon the note will  
sound well.
At that point, start decreasing the pressure back to where you  
started. You
are teaching your muscles to apply the minimum pressure needed to  
fret a
note. My bet it is that it is a LOT less pressure than you are  
used to
applying. Now try it with other fingers. Then try playing a scale  
without
open strings with this same technique. Go up and down the scale a  
few times
from zero pressure to just enough and back again. Do this at the  
start of

every practice session. Worked for me.

Your fingers are more than strong enough.




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3

[Anthony Hind]

Miguel estimates his method should cost  somewhere around 40 € to 50 
€. I think that sounds about right, if you look at the Damiani edition.

No guarantee of course.
Anthony


Le 24 févr. 08 à 22:43, Anthony Hind a écrit :


Rob and Stephen
	About Miguel Serdoura's lute method, Miguel doe  not seem to know  
what the price will be, but he says it will be printed by Ut  
Orpheus, and will come out between September and October 2008, both  
in French and in English.
The Damiani is at 39€ http://tinyurl.com/38uyuv, but it is only 200  
pages as opposed to about 345 pages (unless the music examples are  
reduced in size).

Regards
Anthony


Le 24 févr. 08 à 11:39, Rob MacKillop a écrit :


On 24/02/2008, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



You could try sending a message to the French list, but I doubt if
anyone will want to part with this rather strange first edition.
Anthony



I would swap my original French edition for a new English edition...

Rob

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3

[Anthony Hind]

Stephen
	I have sent you a more detailed message on this topic with  
photographs of lutes that I can't include in my messages to all, as  
they would just be filtered out.
Nevertheless, as I have just checked and seen that you are using a  
13c lute (if it is is not a swanneck), perhaps you could just remove  
the two lowest bass courses, when playing 11c music
(I think that should be easier, from what I have been told); and then  
eventually you could put them back for 13c music, when you really  
need it.

Regards
Anthony


Le 24 févr. 08 à 11:09, Anthony Hind a écrit :




Le 23 fevr. 08 =E0 22:17, Stephen Arndt a ecrit :


Anthony wrote:


Lutists keep telling me the contrary. They say that the left hand
is so much easier on Baroque lute. 



I know. That seems to be the majority opinion. They also cite the
reason that Baroque music uses more open strings. I still have
trouble finding the right bass string, not of course when the bass
line moves chromatically but, for example, when I have to jump
from, say, the fourth course to the eighth or the fifth to the
tenth. I suppose that, all in all, the left hand is easier, but for
me the right hand is more difficult, and somehow Baroque lute seems
much more difficult on the whole than Renaissance.



Sorry Stephen, you have probably already answered this, but are you
playing a 13c lute, or an 11c lute. A number of people who have moved
from Renaissance lute into the Baroque repertoire, and who have both
lute types, have told me that moving to a 13c lute, is far more
difficult than going the 11c way.


Ed wrote:

Is this available on the web? I have two sets from the Barbe set
by Kemer Thomson: E.Gaultier and Gallot le Vieux, but what you have
sounds much bigger.

Yes, it is much larger--the complete manuscript. As far as I know,
it is not available on the web. Please contact me off-list.


I suppose this does not interest you, or is not complete, and you
will know it, but some one else may be interested, so I will mention
it anyway:

MANUSCRIT BARBE. -- Pi=E8ces de luth de differents auteurs en  
tablature

fran=E7aise. ca. 1690. Fac-simile (en 2 couleurs) du ms. de la
Biblioth=E8que nationale, Paris, Res. Vmb. ms 7. Introduction de  
Claude

Chauvel. Gen=E8ve, 1985. 1 volume in-4 oblong de 220 pages, broche.
(Manuscrits, Tome 8)
ISBN 2-8266-0725-1 FS 180.- /  Euro  129.-
Pi=E8ces groupees par tonalites et ecrites avec de precieux details
d'interpretations. Parmi les auteurs: Boquet, Dubut, Dufaut, les
Gallot, les Gautier, Mezangeau, Mouton, Pinel, Vincent. Le premier
possesseur du manuscrit fut J.-B. Barbe, conseiller =E0 la cour des
Aides =E0 Paris sous Louis XIV; le dernier: le musicologue Henri
Pruni=E8res.

The pieces are arranged by key and written with precious details on
performance. The composers include Boquet, Dubut, Dufaut, the
Gallots, the Gautiers, Mezangeau, P. Mouton, Pinel and Vincent. The
first owner of the manuscript was J. -B. Barbe, conseiller =E0 la cour
des Aides at Paris under Louis XIV; the last owner was the
musicologist Henri Pruni=E8res.
http://www.minkoff-editions.com/musique_musicologie/pages/m.htm


Rob wrote:

You mentioned books - do you have the baroque lute tutor by Satoh
and the one by Miguel Serdoura, 'Collection Le Secret Des Muses'?
The latter has lots of exercises and easy pieces. I have the French
version which was published by the French Lute Society, but I
believe it has been withdrawn and will be published by another
publisher both in French and a seperate English language volume.
Anthony should be able to update us on that. It is 346 pages long
and includes good biographies of the main and lesser-known  
composers.


There are also two other booklets for sale at the French SFL site
which Timo Peedu thought were very useful, at
(http://www.sf-luth.org/index.php?Partitions/Le_Secret_des_Muses),
http://tinyurl.com/yqa7p2

Volume 34 : 80 Pi=E8ces faciles pour luth baroque by Jean-Luc Bresson,
Oeuvres de Dufaut, Dubut, Gautier, Logy, Pinel, Mouton, Reusner,
Anonymes.
Paris 2007. 50 p. Prix : 15  Euro  / 20  Euro  + (FR / 2,5  Euro )  
(EU / 3  Euro )


Volume 4 : Musique fran=E7aise pour luth au 17e si=E8cle, choix de 20
pi=E8ces pour luth baroque =E0 11 ch=9Curs par Jo=EBl Dugot :  
Gallot, Dufaut,
Mouton. Paris 1987. 48 p. Prix : 11  Euro  / 15  Euro  + (FR / 2,5   
Euro ) (EU / 3  Euro )




I have used the one by Satoh but have not seen the one by Serdoura.
It sounds really good. Do you know whether the same text is just
being reissued or whether it has been revised? If the former, I
shall try to locate a used copy. I speak fluent French, so the
language is not a problem.


It only came out for a few months before all the copies were sold.
Then Miguel decided to change editors. I know that some parts are
being slightly altered, but not, I think, substantially; and probably
not the music choices.
The main difference would be the presentation. The original is is
sort of loose-leaved, like a typical

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3

[Anthony Hind]

Oups, I made a slip again, sorry Baroque people.
AH

Debut du message reexpedie :

 De : Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date : 24 fevrier 2008 11:09:01 HNEC
 =C0 : Stephen Arndt [EMAIL PROTECTED],  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3


 Le 23 fevr. 08 =E0 22:17, Stephen Arndt a ecrit :

 Anthony wrote:


 Lutists keep telling me the contrary. They say that the left hand
 is so much easier on Baroque lute. 



 I know. That seems to be the majority opinion. They also cite the
 reason that Baroque music uses more open strings. I still have
 trouble finding the right bass string, not of course when the bass
 line moves chromatically but, for example, when I have to jump
 from, say, the fourth course to the eighth or the fifth to the
 tenth. I suppose that, all in all, the left hand is easier, but for
 me the right hand is more difficult, and somehow Baroque lute seems
 much more difficult on the whole than Renaissance.


Sorry Stephen, you have probably already answered this, but are you
playing a 13c lute, or an 11c lute. A number of people who have moved
from Renaissance lute into the Baroque repertoire, and who have both
lute types, have told me that moving to a 13c lute, is far more
difficult than going the 11c way.

 Ed wrote:

 Is this available on the web? I have two sets from the Barbe set
 by Kemer Thomson: E.Gaultier and Gallot le Vieux, but what you have
 sounds much bigger.

 Yes, it is much larger--the complete manuscript. As far as I know,
 it is not available on the web. Please contact me off-list.

I suppose this does not interest you, or is not complete, and you
will know it, but some one else may be interested, so I will mention
it anyway:

MANUSCRIT BARBE. -- Pi=E8ces de luth de differents auteurs en tablature
fran=E7aise. ca. 1690. Fac-simile (en 2 couleurs) du ms. de la
Biblioth=E8que nationale, Paris, Res. Vmb. ms 7. Introduction de Claude
Chauvel. Gen=E8ve, 1985. 1 volume in-4 oblong de 220 pages, broche.
(Manuscrits, Tome 8)
ISBN 2-8266-0725-1 FS 180.- /  Euro  129.-
Pi=E8ces groupees par tonalites et ecrites avec de precieux details
d'interpretations. Parmi les auteurs: Boquet, Dubut, Dufaut, les
Gallot, les Gautier, Mezangeau, Mouton, Pinel, Vincent. Le premier
possesseur du manuscrit fut J.-B. Barbe, conseiller =E0 la cour des
Aides =E0 Paris sous Louis XIV; le dernier: le musicologue Henri
Pruni=E8res.

The pieces are arranged by key and written with precious details on
performance. The composers include Boquet, Dubut, Dufaut, the
Gallots, the Gautiers, Mezangeau, P. Mouton, Pinel and Vincent. The
first owner of the manuscript was J. -B. Barbe, conseiller =E0 la cour
des Aides at Paris under Louis XIV; the last owner was the
musicologist Henri Pruni=E8res.
http://www.minkoff-editions.com/musique_musicologie/pages/m.htm

 Rob wrote:

 You mentioned books - do you have the baroque lute tutor by Satoh
 and the one by Miguel Serdoura, 'Collection Le Secret Des Muses'?
 The latter has lots of exercises and easy pieces. I have the French
 version which was published by the French Lute Society, but I
 believe it has been withdrawn and will be published by another
 publisher both in French and a seperate English language volume.
 Anthony should be able to update us on that. It is 346 pages long
 and includes good biographies of the main and lesser-known  
 composers.

There are also two other booklets for sale at the French SFL site
which Timo Peedu thought were very useful, at
(http://www.sf-luth.org/index.php?Partitions/Le_Secret_des_Muses),
http://tinyurl.com/yqa7p2

Volume 34 : 80 Pi=E8ces faciles pour luth baroque by Jean-Luc Bresson,
Oeuvres de Dufaut, Dubut, Gautier, Logy, Pinel, Mouton, Reusner,
Anonymes.
Paris 2007. 50 p. Prix : 15  Euro  / 20  Euro  + (FR / 2,5  Euro )  
(EU / 3  Euro )

Volume 4 : Musique fran=E7aise pour luth au 17e si=E8cle, choix de 20
pi=E8ces pour luth baroque =E0 11 ch=9Curs par Jo=EBl Dugot : Gallot,  
Dufaut,
Mouton. Paris 1987. 48 p. Prix : 11  Euro  / 15  Euro  + (FR / 2,5   
Euro ) (EU / 3  Euro )


 I have used the one by Satoh but have not seen the one by Serdoura.
 It sounds really good. Do you know whether the same text is just
 being reissued or whether it has been revised? If the former, I
 shall try to locate a used copy. I speak fluent French, so the
 language is not a problem.

It only came out for a few months before all the copies were sold.
Then Miguel decided to change editors. I know that some parts are
being slightly altered, but not, I think, substantially; and probably
not the music choices.
The main difference would be the presentation. The original is is
sort of loose-leaved, like a typical doctoral thesis. The new one
will be exacly like the Damiani, I think. It will therefore be more
sturdy, but Timo Peedu told me he prefers the original type, so I
suppose it depends on what your expectations are.
You could try sending a message to the French list, but I doubt

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3

[Anthony Hind]

Anthony, I usually have to do quite a few takes before I can get  
one that doesn't have any gross mistakes in it. One thing that  
helps me is to think that if I make a mistake on this take, I can  
just erase it and do another. That seems to take some of the  
pressure off. I have only played in public a few times--a  
meditation piece after communion in church, for example, and I  
found it an absolutely nerve-wracking experience. I'm not cut out  
for public performance.


I played Renaissance lute for about four years before taking up the  
Baroque lute. I have to say that though there are virtuosic  
Renaissance pieces that I shall never be able to play, there are  
thousands that are well within my reach. I haven't found that to be  
the case with Baroque music. There doesn't seem to be a lot of easy  
music for it. Most of it seems pretty advanced to me. For the drums  
there are scores of books containing technical, rudimental  
exercises aimed at building skill. Playing through them really  
works. I don't know of any books like that for the lute, but I  
certainly think it would help if I had a series of technical  
exercise to play through for an hour a day.


Lutists keep telling me the contrary. They say that the left hand is  
so much easier on Baroque lute. I suppose it does depend on what  
Renaissance music you want to play. Some of those easier pieces can  
be very entertaining when someone else plays them, but can quickly  
become quite tiresome when repeated (I am amazed at the courage of  
teachers who have to constantly listen to such pieces poorly played);  
but if you are drawn to the more devious and interweaving melodic  
patterns, it soon becomes less simple. That is truly the reason I am  
more drawn to French Baroque than to say Weiss (i am not saying that  
Weiss is easy to play, of course).


Nevertheless, your experience with French Baroque, along with the  
fact that you seem to be using gut strings  I think a new instrument  
and gut strings have helped a lot, and I am more satisfied with the  
sound I am getting now

gives me hope.

Of course for the Renaissance lute Andrea Damiani gives some  
exercises; and the new Baroque Method by Miguel Serdoura to be   
published by the same editor (http://www.utorpheus.com/utorpheus/)  
does the same. I have the previous version in French, but I haven't  
tried the exercises not having my lute as yet; but I have just seen  
that Rob says, it is just what you are looking for.


Translation into English is under progress, and I sometimes receive a  
question from the translator. It is not so easy to translate a method  
which makes an explicit reference to parts of the fingers to which  
the other language never seems to refer. It is strange how we can get  
by with all these gaps in our lexical system. Nevertheless, it should  
be out fairly soon. You can send an email to Miguel, and he will let  
you know when it is ready. I will also send a message to the list as  
soon as I hear that it is available.


http://www.miguelserdoura.com/fr/?Publications
http://www.miguelserdoura.com/?mailform
Regards
Anthony

Le 22 févr. 08 à 06:36, Stephen Arndt a écrit :

To those who kindly took the time to listen to and comment on my  
recording:


Rob, thank you for your continuous encouragement. It really means a  
lot coming from someone with your level of expertise.


Stuart, to be honest I don't believe I'm at the point yet where I  
can worry too much about getting phrases to stand out without  
losing the pulse. I'm pretty happy if I can just get my fingers to  
the right place at the right time. I guess I would have to say that  
I can't really play the lute musically yet, only mechanically. Not  
that I'm doing particularly well on that front either. I agree with  
your point about razor-sharpness. It is usually notated as a  
trilled note followed by two sixteenth notes, though I have heard  
it on recordings as two thirty-second notes. I don't  have the  
rhythmic values very precise yet.


I am looking forward to hearing one of your pieces. When can we  
look forward to one?


Martin, I have a facsimile on CD, and the piece is on the Adobe  
Acrobat page 66. According to the table of contents at the end,  
however, it is on the Barbe Manuscript page 74. I tried playing  
through Weiss originally but found a lot of it too difficult. I  
especially had trouble making much musical sense of some of the  
preludes. (I don't know how Daniel Shoskes does it. He seems to  
play it so precisely.) So, I decided to see whether the French  
repertoire was any easier, and I picked the Barbe Manuscript  
because of the fingering indications.


I got a very metallic sound on my 10-course Renaissance lute and  
haven't played it anymore since getting my Baroque lute (I am  
waiting for the builder of the latter to make me another 10-course  
with the same string spacing to facilitate the transition between  
the two instruments). For the longest 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Tombeau de du But

[Anthony Hind]

I hope the original went to Rob with photo
Le 12 fevr. 08 =E0 17:00, Anthony Hind a ecrit :

Rob
 Oh dear, that is exactly what I did. It happened for your very  
 first recording, I seem to remember. I wonder what migh be causing  
 this. Probably a Mac issue

 However clicking on the link works just fine, and it is beautiful,  
 and sound good for such an ordinary mic. Glad to hear your arm is  
 better, as I permanently struggle with some similar problem.
 It doesn't matter at my age, and poor skill in lute playing, but  
 your not being able to play would be a real loss.
 Anthony


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Tombeau de du But

[Anthony Hind]

0

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Tombeau de du But

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
I seem to be the only one who can't see it. I am on Mac and Firefox
Isi it on the page with De Visée etc?
Regards
Anthony
Le 12 févr. 08 à 12:16, Mathias Rösel a écrit :


Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
It seemed to bring out the best in them. This one is very moving,  
and I hope
you enjoy listening to it. I consider it a 'work in progress'  
recording. You
can find it just above the photo of me holding the lute near the  
bottom of

this page: http://www.rmguitar.info/Maler.htm


Beautiful. - What made you choose the ornaments the way you did? I  
seem

to notice kind of a preponderance for rather short trills instead of
long appogiature.
--
Mathias



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Anthony Hind]

Ed
I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking  
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving  
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of  
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.

Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html
They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to  
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.

Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :


No trouble at all, Martyn.

Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course  
lute, as
I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near  
the

rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks  
would be
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th  
course, down

to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
accordingly.  So, in courses 8  9, the marks are closer to the  
rose, but

marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.

The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and  
not from a
strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have  
also asked
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque  
lutenist

would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is  
amazing.


The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the
pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a very  
long
time.  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different  
baroque

lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
musician playing close to the bridge.

ed

At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was  
played in

its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th
courses would run?

Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might  
still
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.  
You'll

know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,  
Padovetz,
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more  
courses
were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums  
playing

a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.

MH

Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from  
playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were  
in the

castle attic for a very long time.

ed



At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the
movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before  
1907),

perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless?

MH

Edward Martin wrote:
Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to  
be in
storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a  
Heckel looked

at them, and put back into storage in the castle..

ed

.At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you for this.

Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the  
rose sound
a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist.  
Could it have
been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th  
century? I
realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they  
might not
have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son  
of the

house having a strum on the old lute he found in the
attic..

MH


Edward Martin wrote:
Dear ones,

I have an interesting story.

Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of  
Music, in

South
Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have  
many, many
lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also  
have guitars
by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by  
Stradivarius, Ganeri,

Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.

The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined  
them for
about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position,  
etc. They
have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is  
76 cm
mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps  
originally by
Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were  
converted
to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer  
instrument in

1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of

bird's

eye maple, 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: I haven't got the guts anymore!

[Anthony Hind]

Le 14 janv. 08 à 18:12, Rob a écrit :



Dear Anthony,

I think you'll find the bass register below the 7th course more
problematical than the treble. Not only the sound quality of the  
thick-gut
fundamentals, gimped or otherwise, but also the intonation compared  
to the

octave neighbours.




Dear Rob and all
	I would first like to thank those who sent me messages of support,  
encouraging  me to use gut on my new 11c lute. There is definitely a  
sort of friendly brotherhood of gut users, and I  think that is  
valuable.


However, I would also like to thank Rob for honestly keeping us  
informed on his progress and difficulties with gut. I think there can  
be difficulties, and if we don't recognize what they are, we are not  
likely to find satisfactory compromises.
Obviously, an amateur may not have exactly the same problems as a  
professional; a professional may keep in tune better, but an amateur  
can retune whenever he feels like it. Yet, I don't think keeping in  
tune is the real problem that Rob is pointing out. The sound quality  
of the thick-gut fundamentals, gimped or otherwise, that you are not  
happy with, could, also, I think be controlled with perseverance, as  
suggested by Ed on another posting; and I have to say that gut basses  
often take as much as 6 months to thin-out slightly and really  
stabilize, gaining a little in high frequency presence. I would not  
want to judge them within a couple of months.


The really serious problem that Rob is pointing to, seems to me, to  
be the question of the intonation of the basses compared to the  
octave neighbours, and this is simply, I believe, a question of the  
difference in string diameter.


The only way round this intonation problem, with pure gut, would be  
to have very long strings (presumably longer than 69, as much as 74)  
or very low tension strings, but with a very full lute bowl to  
reinforce the bass (a Burkholtzer, for example, as used by Satoh, and  
proned by Ed.). Although, a lute with shortish string lengths (65-67)  
would be much easier to play.


Satoh appears to have found quite a good compromise. Unless I am  
mistaken, he appears to have adopted the Dutch/English/French? 12c  
Lute, to partly get round this problem. On this, the 12c and 11c, on  
the second neck, are quite long, while the other strings are somewhat  
shorter, thus allowing the player more agility; and at the same time,  
the bass is reinforced by the large bowl size of the Burkholtzer lute.
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TSatohConcert/ 
PlayingRT.jpg


Although, the Burkholtzer, recorded on the Larson site is a 13 c  
lute, strung in Gamut gut perhaps with gimped, we can hear that it  
has a rounder more bass orientated sound the 11c Hans Frei, now in  
the Wein Kunsthistorisches Museum, no. C34 :

  Listen first the 13 c Burkholtzer:
http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/berkholtzer/ 
berkholtzer_baroque_lute_sarabande.wma

Second the on the Frei C34 :
http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/frei/frei%20baroque%20lute.wma

If I am right about Satoh's choice, it is quite clever, as the  
Burkholtzer, in its two-headed form, is recognized (thanks, possibly,  
to Jacques Gaultier) as a lute for the early new tunings in France  
and then in England and Holland and  some (possibly, most) two headed  
lutes were indeed multi-ribbed*, as shown by the Mest lute.

http://lib-art.com/art.php?id=1140
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/pictures.htm/mestb.jpg
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/nov99/month.htm

In its 13c or 11 c form, on the other hand, it would probably be seen  
as rather too late for French Baroque music. In its two headed form,  
it seems an acceptable musical compromise for Style Brisé (but  
perhaps I am wrong and Satoh only uses it for specific 2 headed lute  
music). On his recording Style brisé, he seems to be using an  
original lute, the Laurentius Greiff lute (1613) Fussen, so it is  
probably also a multi ribbed lute (no data on that at LSA,
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? 
PID=762)


The two headed lute used by Anthony Bailes, on the other hand, is a  
Warwick Frei model, and he clearly associates it with the French  
fashion for Bologna lutes. There could therefore be two ideas about  
the history of the two-headed lute. The first, stated clearly by  
Bailes, in his latest recording, is that the two headed lute is part  
of the taste for Bologna lutes that began with the search for new  
tunings, and before the success of the Dm tuning (before 1638, then).  
There do not seem to be any surviving Bologna 12c lutes, however. The  
Wolff looks more like a Warwick (from the front), twelve-course lute  
by Wolfgang Wolff, Füssen 16th century; although it is made in Fussen  
and has  15 ribs, so not a typical Bologna lute.

http://www.tabulatura.com/wolff.JPG
However, Van Edwards also makes a 12c based on the 9 ribbed 654  
Maler, the model-type owned by Rob, and of course 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Rép : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 12c + I haven't got the guts anymore!

[Anthony Hind]

Rob, please do not think I am criticising yourself or your lute, or  
Martin's work. I am definitley not, and I hope any full reading of my  
message will show that.
I am very much interested in the issue you raised, for two separate  
reasons : (1) I like gut and I hope to be able to use it, and (2) I  
am very much interested in the historic research aspect. I really  
enjoy that.

Your criticism of thick gut, happens to be one of the arguments in  
favour of loaded strings (and also probably low tension stringing). I  
am intrigued by this issue, and the research articles by Mimmo  
Peruffo, and his whole approach to that question really  impresses  
me, as it does some others, (see David van Edwards
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/mar01/month.htm)

You have every right to chose the soultion which works best for you,  
and you are right to point out the problems that you have come accross.
If we want to use gut, we have to find solutions to those problems.  
Theo thinks he can play round them, perhaps he can, Satoh goes the  
two headed low tesnion way, Ed uses Gimped, but each gut user needs  
to think about that.

Le 16 janv. 08 =E0 18:01, Rob a ecrit :

 I doubt if that would be the problem with Rob's Maler.

 Erm...who said there was anything wrong with my lute? I can't fault  
 it -
 warm (no matter what strings are on it), well set up, easy to play,
 beautifully balanced. One of the best lutes I've ever played. The  
 'problem'
 is not really a problem either: the thing I liked least about the  
 particular
 gut I used was intonation all over the lute, not just the bass  
 courses. To
 me, that chaconne recording I did is out of tune. It might not  
 bother anyone
 else much, but it drives me to distraction. Ultimately, I guess, I  
 prefer
 the intonation of the nylgut over any 'authenticity' question  
 regarding
 string material. I have no problems playing this lute. If I could  
 afford to
 spend a few hundred pounds experimenting with different makers' gut  
 and
 styles of diapasons, I would happily do so. I do, after all, love  
 the sound
 of gut, but I obviously have other priorities.

Rob, I certainly did not say there was a problem with your Maler. Cut  
from context, it might look like that.
I was replying to Theo, who said that some lutes don't work with gut.
I answered that considering Martin Shepherd is a gut lover, and wants  
gut on his lutes, that would harly be the case with this lute (that  
was my meaning, and no other).

I know Martin has spent much time thinking about these issues, and  
has often written on these pages, and on the French list about this  
sort of issue.
I could say that Martin was the first person I encountered ready to  
discuss gut, and the difference between gut-types from various makers.
I also know how long he has had this project for creating an 11c  
Maler. It is not just a sudden impulse, but a long term project that  
Martin has been mulling over for at least the last five years.


 Setting that aside, I wonder, Anthony, why you don't ask Stephen to  
 make you
 a 12c? He has just made one for Paul Beier. I'm sure he'd love to make
 another.
While I was writing this morning, it suddenly came to me why Satoh  
was probably using the 12c. I had written a message about low tension  
stringing (that I have not sent), and I was looking for a photo of  
Satoh playing to show his RH posiiton, and suddenly, I realized why  
he had chosen such a lute. It means longer bass strings, while  
shorter medium and treble, but also, if most 12c lutes were multi- 
ribbed, a larger bowl. He gets double compensation for the weak bass.  
He also gets a lute that looks as though it could play French baroque.

I hadn't read Kenneth Sparr's pages in detail, but I have just seen  
that he says almost the same thing, about the invention of this lute  
type:
http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm
Using the same (short) string length for all courses of the lute  
caused problems: a short string length required very thick bass  
strings which resulted in an inferior sound. On the other hand with a  
much longer string length it was not possible to tune the highest  
courses to the desired pitch. One solution was to keep a short string  
length for the upper register and gradually increase the string  
length for the bass strings

As I was writing about Satoh's choice, I myself, began to think a  
little as you have. I was actually wondering about talking to Stephen  
about it. I knew he had made a 12c lute, but I didn't know who for,  
or what sort of 12c lute (do you know the sort?). I also rather like  
Anthony Baile's new 12c recording.

However, I am not so keen on the multi-ribbed bowl lutes. As you say  
yourself, the 9 or 11 ribbed lute has a freer sound. Do we know that  
Bologna lutes were ever made double-headed, as Anthony Baile's  
obviously thinks.
I rather doubt it. Burwell, and the etching of Jacques Gaultier,  
places this as quite an early invention, and 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Gallot

[Anthony Hind]

Theo
According to Joel Dugot, Musique Fran=C3=A7aise pour luth au XVII 
si=C3=A8cle  
SFL, 1987) there seem to be two Gallots who published tablatures, Le  
Vieux Gallot, whose tablatures seem to be in the Leipzig museum, the  
only ones signed -vieux Gallot- (but that is not always a proof, see  
the problem with associating tablatures to the various Gaultiers,  
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/indices/Gautier.html by John H  
Robinson);
and Jacques Gallot (possibly his nephew, also called le jeune), who  
was the author of Pi=C3=A8ces de luth published after 1684 (see  
introduction to this, facsimile, published by Minkoff, Geneva, 1978).

However, here at http://www.musicologie.org/Biographies/g/ 
gallot_jacques.html, there is no such distinction made, but you can  
see that the Leipzig texts are the only ones signed -vieux Gallot de  
Paris-.

  Gallot Jacques
a Euro ! vers 1690

a Euro ! Paris, vers 1690. Luthiste et compositeur, fr=C3=A8re d'Alexandre  
Gallot =C3=A9galement musicien. On le conna=C3=AEt sous le noms de -vieux  
Gallot de Paris-. Il est un =C3=A9l=C3=A8ve d'Ennemond Gaultier. Il a  
publi=C3=A9 =C3! Paris des Pi=C3=A8ces de luth compos=C3=A9es sur differens 
modes*
introduites par un bref trait=C3=A9 sur l'instrument. Les pi=C3=A8ces sont  
organis=C3=A9es par tonalit=C3=A9 et des menuets sont interpol=C3=A9s. Ses  
compositions comprennent des portraits musicaux : La Fontange, La  
Montespan etc. et des tombeaux (Turenne, Cond=C3=A9, Madame).
Le manuscrit II 614, Musikbibliothek Leipzig, contient des pi=C3=A8ces  
sign=C3=A9es -vieux Gallot-. On trouve quelques pi=C3=A8ces sign=C3=A9es  
-Gallot- dans une s=C3=A9rie d'autres manuscrits : Biblioth=C3=A8que  
nationale de France ; Biblioth=C3=A8que municipale de Besan=C3=A7on ; Bodleian  
Library Oxford ; Carl Dolmetsch Library, Haslemere ;  
Benediktinerstift, G=C3=B6ttweig (Autriche) ; Benediktinerstift  
Kremsm=C31/4nster (Autriche) ; Nationalbibliothek, Wien (Autriche) ;  
Hudebn=C3=AD odd=C4=9Bnlun=C3=AD Universitn=C3=AD knihovny, Praha 
(Biblioth=C3=A8que de  
l'Universit=C3=A9, d=C3=A9partement de la musique) ; L=C3=A4roverksbiblioteket, 
 
Kalmar (Su=C3=A8de).

*  Pieces de Luth Composees sur differens Modes par J. G. Auec les  
folies d'Espagnes Enrichies de plusieurs beaux couplets dediees a  
Mgn. le Comte Destree Viceadmiral de France (Paris sans date)
Regards
Anthony

Le 27 d=C3=A9c. 07 =C3! 10:54, T. Diehl-Peshkur a =C3=A9crit :

 For the experts amongst us:
 Does anyone know if the music of Jacques de Gallot is completely  
 contained
 by the Leipzig MS, together with the Milleran and Barbe MSS?
 As far as I can see these sources should cover all or almost all of  
 his
 works, but I am not sure if that is really the case...
 Thanks in advance,
 Theo

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

[Anthony Hind]

Robert
I looked at the photos  again, and noticed another variation apart  
from the one you mentionned which was as follows:

 Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are  
 relatively close):
 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683'
 http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG
 3) The third has no label
 http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG

 2 and 4 really not close to the bridge :

 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/
 R=C3=B6m.  Kays. May- /  Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/  
 zuegericht'
 http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG

 4) The fourth is  'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in
 Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider
 http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG

  But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many  
 portraits and instruments. RB


First, I wonder whether this variation above is sufficient to  
consider it as relating to two different techniques: thumb completely  
out, thumb not completely out (but perhaps not in). other  
explanations seem possible.

  However, what surprises me, is that the last two (3  4) seem to  
have a very precise fixed finger position:

3) The third has no label
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG

4) The fourth is  'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in
Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG

This would seem to imply that any sound variation would be obtained  
by swivelling the hand, but keeping the little finger firmly placed;
while the first two show a longish patch showing a more variable  
little finger position:

1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683'
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG

2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/
R=C3=B6m.  Kays. May- /  Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht'
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG

This could show that sound variation was obtained by a movement on  
the soundboard, the finger not fixed.

However, this interpretation implies that the lute was played by only  
one person. Can we be sure about that? Might the lutes 1  2 have  
been played by more than one person, but the lutes 3 and 4 by only one?
The fact that there is no break in the moveable position could  
indicate that it WAS the same player.

If the two positions: close to the bridge (1 and 3), but not so close  
to the bridge (2 and 4), could perhaps be explained by a player  
adapting to string type or tension or because of hand size, or  
perhaps thumb out (1  3), not so far out (2  4); however, the fixed  
finger (3  4), moveable finger (12) difference, can't be given such  
an explanation, and must surely imply two different playing techniques.

The problem is that the little finger swivel, or glide techniques do  
not correspond to the close to the bridge less close to the bridge  
position.
It would have been easier to fathom had there been a coincidence  
between the two. Then we would clearly have two globally different  
techniques.
Anthony


Le 16 dec. 07 =E0 21:55, Robert Barto a ecrit :

 Anthony,

 Thank you very much for these pictures.

 What's actually interesting about them is how two are close to the  
 bridge
 and two are not. Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1  
 and 3 are
 relatively close, 2 and 4 really not.) But no sign of on the bridge or
 behind as one sees on many portraits and instruments.

 So what does this tell us?

 Robert



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

[Anthony Hind]

Oups, sorry Rob,

	it just came back to my mind, when Theo, said you couldn't trust the  
marks on a lute in a museum. I have sort of been trained to store  
apparently completely unrelated data in my mind for future  
association, at a later date. Theo's message just suddenly triggered  
this memory.


I spotted yourself with the Buchenberg when I was searching for the  
Van Raalte Brownsea Island lutes. I saw that some of them had ended  
up in Edinburgh.
Initially, I thought the Buchenberg was one of them and wrote to  
Professor Arnold Myers, Director of the museum, who told me this  
wasn't in fact the case.


However, I don't think anyone expects you to get a good sound out of  
such a lute, unless you can control the stringing, etc. We listen  
just to have an idea of how they sound, not how you play.
I would say that most of the recordings done on lutes in museums are  
interesting, but not ideal. I am thinking of the Hoppy recordings on  
the 1644 Railich (Denis Gaultier), and his recording for Reflexe of  
Weiss on the Widhalm.
Also one of Anthony Bailes' recordings of late German Baroque on  
reflexe. I imagine they could control the stringing, and yet the  
sound is still problematic in the mid.
However, Mimmo Peruffo told me the Frei pictured on the recent  
message was wonderful, but perhaps he completely restrung it.


There are a few music museums where the instruments are kept in good  
playing condition such as Finchcocks (harpsichords and forte pianos)


I know that there are also demonstrations, or rather were  
demonstrations at the Musée de la musique of some of the lutes. I  
attended a concert of gambists, there (Christophe Coin), where they  
played on original instruments, and when at the end they picked up  
their own gambas, it was a relief. Yet hearing the original  
instruments was still interesting.


The Rauwolf, obviously does not have quite the same heavyish sound as  
the Buchenberg, having been completely restored, but there is some  
element in common, which must be the age of the wood, I imagine.
On the English lute society pages,they mention a sound approaching  
that of the oboe.


Sorry you don't remember anything about the finger marks, and in fact  
that you would rather forget, as I imagined it would be a great  
moment to get your hands on an such old lute, and guitars.
I am obviously too romantic. i didn't think of the cold and perhaps  
the dust.

Regards
Anthony



Le 17 déc. 07 à 13:59, Rob a écrit :


Oh dear, I hoped no-one would spot that on the net! Thanks Anthony! Oh
well... The piece is the most boring ever - I've no idea why I  
thought it
suitable! The university asked me to record a CD of a small  
selection of
their instruments. No repairs were made to the instruments, they  
were just
strung up, and I only got a couple of hours to get used to the  
instruments.
The sound recording was also very poor. The string spacing on the  
Buchenberg
was very comfortable, but the strings were more or less just lying  
on the
frets. I couldn't play the first course without getting that zing.  
Horrible.


Don't buy the CD!

It was about ten years ago, when I had hair! I've no idea about
little-finger marks on the soundboard. I just remember being cold and
getting a horrible sound. Never thought I'd see that again!

Rob

www.rmguitar.info


-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 17 December 2007 12:40
To: T. Diehl-Peshkur; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

Theo and Rob
A thought came to me, that a playable lute, even in a museum does
get played by modern lutists, who might leave their traces on the
lute. I noticed that Rob played a number of instruments at the
EDINBURGH UNIVERSITY COLLECTION OF HISTORIC MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS.
Although, did you play them long enough to leave such a trace, Rob?
There is a CD of Rob's recordings, mainly on guitare, but also
Dowland on the Buchenberg.

Here Rob is playing on the Matheus Buchenberg/ Rome/early 17th century

Rob McKillop playing
 * Shoes Rare and Good in All - Lilt Ladie An Gordoun (from the
Straloch MS, NLS Adv.MS.5.2.18 c 1627-29) [ Real video ]
Click on http://tinyurl.com/yunqyg
Web page details at
http://tinyurl.com/2yw6tr
The indications are that The sound-board is stained with finger
grease along the lower side of the rose and at the upper end of the
upper side of the rose, indicating the right hand playing position
most often used.
Rob obviously had a close look at this, so would you say this was
reasonably clear, Rob? I imagine you would have tried to put your
hand, as close as possible to that original position?
Those old lutes have quite a different tone from modern instruments,
the age of the wood no doubt.
Regards
Anthony

Le 17 déc. 07 à 12:35, T. Diehl-Peshkur a écrit :


Hello Anthony et al,
I am very interested in this topic that is presently being
discussed, but it
reminds me a lot

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

[Anthony Hind]

Le 16 déc. 07 à 21:24, Rob a écrit :
Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot  
does not
show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less,  
Mouton's
technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that  
photo. I say
more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is  
quite fluid
and allied to the subtle dynamic and tonal nuances of the music.  
When that
photo was taken I had only seen the lute for a few minutes and  
hadn't really
played anything. I was grinning because Martin had just accepted a  
dud

cheque, the value of which he will discover tomorrow!


	Rob, we can all see that (well not the dud cheque), We are aware  
that you are posing for the camera, holding the new arrival, vaguely  
in a somewhat more relaxed Mouton posture; but I suppose that Charles  
was also posing for the painter.
Although, you might have played with your lute for 40 mins and  
Charles played his for 40 years, that was not really the point; both  
paintings and photos of posing musicians would not be the ideal proof  
of a playing position, unless they were actually playing, which is  
not the case for either of you.


Your finger is a little forward, in relation to Charles', but I only  
really added your photo, because I am hoping every one will agree  
with me that Mouton's lute is indeed a Maler, or even a Desmoulins  
baroqued Maler. No I know that can't be proved either way. I am not  
really taking all that much more seriously than we can see you are.


However, the finger marks on the unrestored lutes are highly  
significant evidence, showing that if you do indeed want to play with  
the little finger nearer the bridge, then you are following the  
pattern of at least four other historic lute players, particularly,  
as you are using gut strings, as obviouly they had no choice but to  
do (although theirs might have been loaded). Marks on the lute belly,  
are much more significant than paintings, or indeed photos, unless  
the player is performing during the photo.


I would make some duff pun about Tcheque (as they call it in France)  
Malers and dudd cheques, but fortunately for all, none come to mind,  
at this time in the evening.


We will all here,be looking forward to hearing you play de Visee in  
Paris, perhaps on this lute, and possibly with an even better little  
finger position (I will be the bearded one in the front row, with a  
big grin, perhaps invisble under my beard).
Although, I would be quite happy if I could play my lute as you do  
after holding it for only few minutes.


Regards
Anthony

PS Just the knowledge that yet another Frei exists (perhaps all of  
you already knew that, but I didn't), pleases me; and the French  
Maler was only disovered very recently too. Wolfgang Emmerich  
analysed a fairly recently discovered Railich in Prague, I think, and  
S. Lippi also discovered an analysed a Railich in Italy. Perhaps,  
more remain to be discovered.
However, for me personally, the idea that one can still make  
discoveries about finger marks on lute bellies, which haven't been  
studied before, as MP  has done, is, if anything, even more  
interesting, pushing at the barriers of our  knowledge of historic  
techniques.


I haven't yet obtained the new lute record by Anthony Bailes on two- 
headed lute, but i understand that is also the result of pioneering  
musical analysis, that has allowed him to open up a new-old musical  
repertoire. I have to admit in taking some joy at the idea of all  
that. As I think of this a gleeful smile appears on my face, too.



Le 16 déc. 07 à 21:24, Rob a écrit :

Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot  
does not
show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less,  
Mouton's
technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that  
photo. I say
more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is  
quite fluid
and allied to the subtle dynamic and tonal nuances of the music.  
When that
photo was taken I had only seen the lute for a few minutes and  
hadn't really

played anything. I was grinning because Martin had just accepted a dud
cheque, the value of which he will discover tomorrow!

Rob

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

The example he chooses is Charles Mouton, so we can compare with the
rh position that Rob has also adopted;
Rob: http://tinyurl.com/2dlsa3

Charles: http://tinyurl.com/yvlvvq





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Bailes 2 headed

[Anthony Hind]

Thanks Nigel
	I think you are right. I have never heard of Ramée organization  
(which doesn't mean much, I mean my not knowing about it), but the  
person did say it was a little known company.

I will order it right away.
Did you give the details to the list?
Thanks again, happy end to your year, and beginning to the next
Anthony


Le 15 déc. 07 à 15:18, Nigel Solomon a écrit :


I'm pretty sure it's the Old gaultier CD. Have a look on the  
website: http://www.ramee.org/
You'll see a photo of Bailes with a double-headed lute. The CD was  
released earlier this month.


Nigel






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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Rép : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Rob+Charles=Maler(NewO ldFrei)

[Anthony Hind]

Dear All
Mimmo Peruffo has just sent me these superb photos of a completely  
unrestored 11c  'Hans Frei  Bologna; Baroqued Matthias Fur/Rom 1683,  
71.20 cms vibrating length photographed in January 2005, at the  
Kremsmunster: Instrumentenmuseum. Mimmo says, It is clear that this  
was an original Hans Frei of the renaissance age made d minor in the  
1683 year. It is so fantastic to have another confirmation of what  
Burwell others say about the use of the old Bolognese lutes to  
rebuilt as 11c lutes, MP.

http://tinyurl.com/2gutgg
http://tinyurl.com/2cdbof

MP says the Bridge holes are  1.80 mm for the 11th hole, 1.55 mm only  
for the 10th. He says it sounded fantastic to him.

He sends it because of my reference to the Mouton lute with the lace  
around the sound board (this process can clearly be seen on the  
Kremsmunster Frei lute too); but also because the question has been  
raised about the rh. little finger position. The marks are very clear  
to see, near and even perhaps on the bridge. Mimmo also  thinks this  
has to prove the thumb was surely quite out for the player of this  
instrument.

These are his personal photos, but he authorizes me to show them to  
you, but of course any reference to them, implies quoting him.

Personally, I feel privileged to see such photos, and I heartily  
thank Mimmo for allowing us  to view them, and have a little more  
insight into his research procedures.
As I am ordering an 11c Frei lute, and the string length is a little  
less, but nevertheless quite long, I am relieved to see such string  
lengths were entirely authentic.

Regards
Anthony

PS This now means that the proportion of extant Freis to Maler  
Bologna lutes that I know about has slightly changed  (3 Freis to 5  
Malers), but there are now more 11 ribbed models than 9 ribbed among  
these (three Frei plus two Maler with 11 ribs, and three Malers with  
9 ribs, but to these last you can add the related  9 ribbed Laux  
Bosh, so it is about equal; but I know of no 7 ribbed  Burwell lute,  
we may still be surprised.)

PPS, I feel a little mean not showing these photos to the whole list  
(Lute), but they are Baroque.




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c

[Anthony Hind]

Rob, and any one on the Baroque list,
All gut basses take a very log time to settle-in completely, and go  
on improving for a surprisingly long time.
However, when I said that to David v. O., he told me it could be my  
playing adapting to the strings, rather than the string developping.

I am sure that is partly so, and Ed described the change of technique  
needed for gut basses rather well, in a recent message, see here at
http://tinyurl.com/2dft7b

However, I haven't had metal wounds for over 30 years; although,  
admittedly, I did have a 20 years or so break in my playing (so I am  
new-old stock, as they describe some vintage valves that have  
hardly been played in).

Again, when I changed recently from Pistoy to Venice on the 5th course,
the Venice took about 6 months to develop. I can't believe that my  
technique has had to adapt that much when going from a gut-tress to a  
gut-twine. I think it really IS the string settling in.

Having said that it does take a long time for someone used to  
wirewounds, simply to get use to the different sound and feel of gut  
basses, that you have to make sing rather than damp.

When you have played for a long time with a particular string type,  
the tea or coffee syndrome inevtiably develops. By that I mean,  
people do become used to one type of tea or coffee, and everything  
else tastes wrong to them, even when the tea or coffee, in question  
might be tea-bags and robusta.
Regards
Anthony


Le 14 dec. 07 =E0 11:49, Rob a ecrit :

 Thanks Theo and Anthony,

 Yes, these gimped strings are new to me, the Pistoys too. So it's  
 not just a
 case of getting used to 11 courses and new repertoire, but new  
 strings also.
 I will doubtless experiment a bit over time, but gut basses are  
 expensive!
 I'd love to hear your Andy Rutherford 11c, Theo, and Anthony's  
 Gottlieb when
 it arrives. Mary Burwell said the French fashion was for a single 11th
 course - I might try that with a thicker fundamental.

 I'm probably finished recording for the moment, but might take you  
 up on the
 idea of recording the same piece in a couple of months, just to see  
 what
 differences there are.

 Rob

 www.rmguitar.info



 -Original Message-
 From: T. Diehl-Peshkur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 14 December 2007 10:41
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c

 Hi Rob,
 Thanks for the link, very nice!
 From my own experience, I picked up my Andy Rutherford 11 course  
 about a 2
 months ago, all gut, with gimped basses
 from Larson.
 The basses developed quite dramatically in the first few month-  
 especially
 after working on them vigorously for some time.
 I think it is a combination of the string developing as well as the
 soundboard.
 My suspicion is that in about a month or two, those basses of yours  
 are
 going to be quite different.
 It would be fun to record the same piece again at that time to see  
 what
 happens!
 Cheers,
 Theo


 From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:19:14 -
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] new sound file for 11c

 I've made an mp3 of the Chaconne in Am by de Visee with my right  
 hand little
 finger resting on the bridge. This technique is depicted in a  
 number of
 paintings and seems to work well with all-gut strings. I once tried  
 it on a
 lute strung in nylon and it sounded quite poor. I think it works  
 well with
 gut, so might try to adopt it as my 11c technique. On the other  
 hand (not
 literally) the famous painting/engraving of Mouton has his hand a  
 little
 further from the bridge with little finger on the sound board, but  
 still
 nowhere near the rose.



 The gimped strings seem to have settled.



 Here it is: http://www.rmguitar.info/Maler.htm - scroll to the  
 bottom of the
 page.



 Man, I love this lute! Please excuse all this sudden enthusiasm!



 Rob



 www.rmguitar.info








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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c

[Anthony Hind]

Plastic Ukele string free, oups sorry, no really, I don't mean it.
Anthony

Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:53, Rob a écrit :




it is very good to see that you are

finally making your  11c Malers...also that they are plastic free. 

Plastic?!

Rob






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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Rép : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
  Yes, I was being a little facetious about synthetics, but I do  
think there can be a plasticky sound to some strings. As i said once  
before, the effect is accumulative both for gut and for synthetics,  
because of sympathetic resonances.


Here in France, I can assure you that lutes strung in gut by the lute  
maker are a rarity, in England it is clearly quite different.


As I remarked in a previous messaeg, the material used as insulation  
in capacitors, it is also claimed, can be heard in play back systems:  
different sorts of plastics, or paper. The more of the same, the more  
the particular characteristic is audible.


The figured ash back to your lute is particularly beautiful, as I  
said previously We all congratulated, you,  the happy owner, but we  
should also have congratulated Martin. That was what I was trying to  
do, as I happen to know this is part of a long project

Anthony

Le 14 déc. 07 à 16:46, Rob a écrit :


By plastic you meant nylon strings, I suppose. I thought for a  
moment you

were referring to the body!

Rob

www.rmguitar.info


-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 14 December 2007 15:18
To: Baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c

Rob
How could it have meant anything else?

Small point of grammar? I suppose I should have said plastics as
opposed to plastic.

A friend who has recently begun to move from synthetics to gut, told
me he realized that the presence of even a small ammount of gut frees
up the sound.  Just as you suggested for  the small number of ribs .

This gives me an idea that lute makers will probably not like. How
about making a lute in an acoustically predictable material (ie not
wood), and then experimenting with different numbers of ribs to see
what the effect really is?
The problem, is that when you compare, even two almost  identical
lutes, the wood, the glue, the varnish are all variables that confuse
the results.

I think I remember a lute maker on the list, once said he had
experimented with papier maché and got quite good results, but there
again, papier maché is not quite predictable enough.
  Oups, am I being Owlish, again …
Best Regards
Anthony

Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:58, Anthony Hind a écrit :



Plastic Ukele string free, oups sorry, no really, I don't mean it.
Anthony

Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:53, Rob a écrit :






it is very good to see that you are


finally making your  11c Malers...also that they are plastic free.


Plastic?!

Rob







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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new 11c!

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
	I have just been speaking to Stephen, and he is willing to take  
photos of my lute in construction
just as for yours. I will find some way of showing them to the list.  
He very much likes the idea, in fact.

Best regards
Anthony


Le 13 déc. 07 à 10:36, Rob a écrit :

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New 11c

[Anthony Hind]

Talk about riddles, where did that feuille de voyage SNCF come from  
I haven't taken a train since last year

Anthony


Le 13 déc. 07 à 14:57, Anthony Hind a écrit :



Le 13 déc. 07 à 00:06, Rob a écrit :

Sorry if I made you feel I was criticizing you for asking  
questions - far

from it! I have too many of them myself.



Eventually I just give up, and then
the answers often come to me. But by then I've forgotten the  
question! I
feel like the Winnie the Pooh of the lute...most players are more  
like

Eeyore, especially Dowland in his gloomy place!

Keep questioning. There are a few Owls you should watch out for,  
though.


Rob

www.rmguitar.info






Rob
	I now understand, I missed out on one essential piece of English  
culture.
I have never read Winnie the Pooh, or had it read to me, as far as  
I remember.


My father, on the other hand, was a permanent poser of riddles for  
which there
was never any logical solution. I am by inclination, and by  
profession, being
an experimental phonetician, drawn myself now to raising riddles,  
and on very rare occasions
actually solving them. I expect that makes me an Owl, rather than a  
Winnie, or an Eeyore, but I am wildly guessing.
Your piece of prose above, rings to me just like one of my father's  
unsolvable [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Indeed your words about the Bologna lutes, the 9 ribs, the free  
sound and the resonance of the open strings
in the D minor tuning, also rings like a riddle to me. Call it an  
interesting hypothesis, but that might be too fancy (probably an  
Owlish word?).


Did the fashion for the Bologna lutes correspond almost exactly  
with the discovery of this tuning?
If it did (and that is not certain), was it indeed chosen for the  
freedom of sound going so well with this tuning,
(does the age of the wood that sweetens the tone also lower the  
impedance, I suspect it might)?


Many lutists just seem to consider the elegant Bologna shape both  
from appearance and for posture, that determines their choice for  
this music, quoting the Charles Mouton portrait,
but Burwell, explicitly says these lutes were not chosen for their  
figure.


Was the later partial return to larger more rounded multi ribbed  
lutes, in the later German Baroque era, simply because Malers had  
run-out, and German made 9 ribbed lutes a failure, so even
these multi ribbed monsters became acceptable, or was it again  
because the music had changed. French music was more Mid  
orientated. German Baroque seems to have more of a bass ground.


So perhaps, again it is the music which may have dictated the change.

Your riddle seemed one interesting way of looking at this issue,  
and as usual it gives birth to more riddles (no rhyming slang  
intended).


I will admit that some will not care why they have chosen, and just  
get on and play. Then you get strange remarks thrown at you, like,  
thereare the thinkers and the doers.

I see no problem with both.

Regards
Anthony

PS My computer seems to have learnt from my mistakes. Before when I  
wanted to type in Baroque, I had to type in the whole word, now the  
initial letter

seems to trigger the address.





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new 11c!

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
	Yes, indeed, I doubt whether there is a great deal of difference  
between 9 ribs and 11 ribs. Burwell, mentioned that 7 ribs, 9 ribs,  
or 11 ribs were best, I suppose, writing about D minor tuning.
I wonder whether 7 ribs did ever exist? Has any one tried to make  
one?  Stephen did say he could make me a 9 ribbed Warwick, but as I  
wanted an 11/10c, I wondered whether the 11 ribs
would not be a fair balance between the multi-ribbed lutes, often  
used as 10c lutes in Vieil ton  and the Bologna lutes used for  
Nouveau ton. You see, I have taken on board your hypothesis.


As I think i told you, I bought Liz Kenny's Lawes songs, in which I  
believe she plays on a large multi-ribbed lute with a dark sound
http://tinyurl.com/ypnlbk, and it is superb for the sombre music of  
Cuthbert Hely, in the Vieil Ton. Miguel Serdoura, one of my  
neighbours here, tells me he heard her concert at Bâle,
  THE JACOBEAN LUTE - personalities from the mysterious Cuthbert  
Hely to the murderous Jacques Gaultier and Shakespeare’s in-house  
composer, Robert Johnson. Devised for the
Basel Lute series, February 2007. He tells me it was superb, and I  
believe she used this multi-ribbed lute for that? Somebody told me I  
was mistaken, and in fact she was playing a Warwick.
I honestly doubt it, because of the dark sound (on the CD), but  
sometimes, it can be the acoustics. Does anyone know?


Perhaps later I will therefore consider a 10c Rauwolf (I can't think  
that I will swap very frequently between 10/11c), so I am keeping the  
10c Rauwolf as a future option. I think it would be excellent for late

Renaissance, early Transitional Baroque.

However, for now I am going to concentrate on the 11c qualities of  
the Warwick. Well, I should say in the near future, as Stephen will  
begin at the end of January.


	I am pleased to read that your 69 cm Maler is strung entirely in  
gut. that is certainly audible in the recording, and what a clear but  
warm sound with exceptional depth to it.
Even on my computer with special outboard speaker this is audible.  
The new photos and sound have now materialized (Lewis Carrol-like). I  
imagine this was well worth the wait for you.


Incidentally, Plum necks are superbly organic. I would have liked  
one,  having tried a Frei with such a neck by Stephen, but I had a  
few doubts about my ability to change frets without marking it.
For all other considerations, Plum is definitely superior, as Burwell  
rightly says.


Best regards
Anthony






Le 13 déc. 07 à 18:30, Rob a écrit :

Great. Did you settle for the Warwick Frei? That's a great lute to  
copy for

a ten or eleven course.

Rob

www.rmguitar.info



-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 13 December 2007 14:56
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new 11c!

Rob
I have just been speaking to Stephen, and he is willing to take
photos of my lute in construction
just as for yours. I will find some way of showing them to the list.
He very much likes the idea, in fact.
Best regards
Anthony


Le 13 déc. 07 à 10:36, Rob a écrit :

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] biting my nails

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
	My reply to you did not get through (because of photos screen shots  
I added). I was just saying that messags on Baroque questions are  
contantly sent to the lute list: swan neck, Weiss and nails,
and you yourself reply on that list with no problem. I admit I am  
becoming confused. When is a message appropriate only for one list,  
certainly not string types, even if my message was related to Swan  
necks.


The problem then will constantly be to make the right choice, not  
only of to what list, but to which persons. I have no list of  
members, so I don't know who belongs where.


People shift messages and leave the same title, it will be a problem  
for people searching for the topic later. I happen to do that quite  
often., so I know that is so.


I know I should say nothing about that if I confuse addresses, I  
don't think it is quite the same problem however.


It is always possible to indicate a topic has been shifted by adding  
a word, such as nails or whatever.


I am beginning to bite mine this evening, as I think how I am going  
to work out, where and to which persons, I will send my next mail.


I hope you did get my feliciations, that were sent on the very first  
day you mentionned the arrival. Indeed, I may have sent the message  
before you sent yours, as I don't know whether I am coming or going.

Well, actially going, as it really is late.
Anthony





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new 11c lute - pics

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
I better send this again to the correct list. Actually, after  
writing it, I saw you had already said most of it in a more compact  
form.

Ed and all
I am also sure that Rob's lute will be excellent, and as everyone  
keeps telling me, the player makes 70% of the sound, I would be very  
happy to borrow some of Rob's and Ed's playing skills to make my  
future lute really sing. I am looking forward to the forthcoming on  
line, lute concert from Rob, with this new lute, but I promise not to  
reciprocate.

I am sure you all have the follwoing information, which is freely  
accessible on the Web, but some of it was new to me, while I was  
studying up the question, on 9 ribbed, versus 11 ribbed lutes. I  
will just probably repeat what you all know, sorry about that, if it  
is the case.

It seems, the production from the Maler factory was huge, making  
our lute maker's productions minute. I believe an inventory of the  
Laux Maler atellier in 1552 included 1100 finished lutes, and 1300  
soundboards ready for use. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/history2.htm

I understand Maler surounded himself with other  lute makers, of  
similar German origin, to produce such a quantity, and that a certain  
standardisation must have been necessary for such an output. The  
simplicity of construction, their combined skills as a team, and  
their knowledge of woods could partly explain the high esteem they  
acheived. (The choice of 9 or 11 ribs may have originally been to  
speed up the process, even if possibly the sound is freer than with a  
multi ribbed lute, due to the use of less glue and paper, leading to  
less impedance).

You can contrast that with the inventory of Jean Desmoulin in Paris  
in 1648 which included 249 lutes in various stages of construction. I  
think only the one Desmoulin lute survived, rather more Malers, five  
I believe, so it seem that the ratio of surviving lutes to the number  
left in the inventory of the two atelliers is about in proportion,  
unless I got  the calculation wrong (my math(s) is/are poor).
Paris Maler  http://tinyurl.com/2duo22
Paris Desmoulin Desmoulins http://tinyurl.com/29ma6o.

There is one Maler here in Paris, the two Czech republic ones 654,  
and 655, (one of which Rob's lute is a copy), one in the GNM M154,  
and one in the Victoria and Albert.

The two largest ones, the 655 and the V  A have 11 ribs, while all  
the others have 9 ribs. I wondered whether the 11 ribbed ones would  
have similar geometry to the Warwick, but both Malcolm Prior and  
Martin Shepherd tell me that is not the case. It is the Warwick that  
has rather exceptional geometry (well it may not be correct to say  
that it is exceptional, when so few lute have survived. This would  
imply that the surviving lutes are statistically significant, which  
is clearly not the case).

However, Martin Prior tells me that both the Frei and Maler workshops  
continued to well into the 17th century under their heirs. So that  
although the surviving lutes are often supposed to date from  
1530-1550, there is no direct evidence to prove it.

It is strange that less Maler models are now made than Freis,  
considering that more Malers have survived, and the fame they once  
had; however, perhaps the Warwick was strategically well placed  and  
this made the Freis easier to study. The proportion of Frei copies at  
present must far outweigh the number of Malers.
There might be an aesthetic question, perhaps the shape of the  
Warwick, or its related sound quality, for some reason  has been more  
pleasing to recent modern taste.
However, if we judge from the Mouton painting, the French Baroque  
soloists may have preferred smaller instruments with a sweet free mid  
tone. Exactly the sound that Rob is looking for.

Nevertheless, it does seem that a number of lute makers are trying to  
give the Maler models the boost they deserve.

Soon to follow there could be a Marx Unverdoben lutes revival? These  
were mentionned in the same breath as Maler and Frei, of which only  
three (possibly 4) I think survive. These do seem to be less  
standardized as I think one from the Van Raalte collection had 9  
ribs, the one in the Harvard museum has 13 ribs with the classic  
almond shape, of which Michael Schreiner seems to be the only  
lutemaker I can find who makes makes an 11c copy,
http://tinyurl.com/2sbdfx

and of course the great Fenton House model that has 31 ribs, and  
seems only suitable as a marvellous 13c swan necked lute of which  
Stephen Gottlieb made a superb copy that I briefly plucked.

Even rarer, perhaps, is the Laux Bosch of Schongau, of which one  
exists in Paris, and which Martin Shepherd tells me is closely  
related to the Malers.
http://tinyurl.com/yw7zhq

Sorry, I better stop before you all fall asleep.
Regards
Anthony

Le 22 nov. 07 =E0 04:00, Edward Martin a ecrit :

 I'll bet you are eager to get this instrument, Rob!

 I had a Mahler years ago, a 10 course,