Re: Stus-List A-4

[randy via CnC-List]

Thanks Danny, and that was my suggestion to them as well.  Am hoping to
offer them something in lieu of east coast!

 

 

randy

Tamanawas

29-II

Hood River, OR

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Danny
Haughey via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 8:31 AM
To: randy via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Danny Haughey <djhaug...@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List A-4

 

Hi Randy,

the engine has some value.  Without knowing it's condition, you could
probably get a few  hundred for it from someone wanting a spare and the
motivation to rebuild it.  I'm sure Moyer marine would love to have it but
they'd probably not offer much more than to pay for shipping to take it off
your hands.

You could head over the Moyer marine forums and get better info from that
group.

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/index.php

Danny



On 11/13/2017 10:59 AM, randy via CnC-List wrote:

Greetings All, a friend is settling a family estate of a sailor.  Friend and
family know nothing about sailboats.  Boat has an older Yanmar 2GM installed
sometime in last seven years, and the original A-4 is at the house.  From
outside it is in much better condition than expected, but no one has any
idea of inside.  Any suggestions on value and/or getting the word out?
Motor is located in Portland, OR, and neither Portland or Seattle craigslist
have much to offer.

 

TIA,

 

randy

Tamanawas

29-II

Hood River, OR

 

 






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Stus-List A-4

[randy via CnC-List]

Greetings All, a friend is settling a family estate of a sailor.  Friend and
family know nothing about sailboats.  Boat has an older Yanmar 2GM installed
sometime in last seven years, and the original A-4 is at the house.  From
outside it is in much better condition than expected, but no one has any
idea of inside.  Any suggestions on value and/or getting the word out?
Motor is located in Portland, OR, and neither Portland or Seattle craigslist
have much to offer.

 

TIA,

 

randy

Tamanawas

29-II

Hood River, OR

 

 

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Re: Stus-List Landfall for sale

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Joe what do you mean by "'falling knife' investment"? 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Joe via CnC-List Della Barba"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Joe Della Barba"  
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 9:01:36 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Landfall for sale 



The boat was in horrible shape about 6-8 years ago and probably has not 
improved. I doubt you would do well even if you got her for free. 

Speaking of boat values, pretty much any older boat now is a “falling knife” 
investment. If anyone does still want old boats, no reason to get a half or 
3/4s dead one. 





Joe Della Barba 

Coquina 

C 35 MK I 








From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of detroito91 
via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 10:51 AM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: detroito91  
Subject: Re: Stus-List Landfall for sale 





At $ 10,000.00. Something has got to be in real bad shape! (I hope) 


Jim 


38 lf 


Washington nc 











Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device 





 Original message  


From: Frederick G Street via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 


Date: 8/15/17 10:08 AM (GMT-05:00) 


To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 


Cc: Frederick G Street < f...@postaudio.net > 


Subject: Re: Stus-List Landfall for sale 





“Wow” is right — there go the property values in the neighborhood… :^( 





— Fred 



Fred Street -- Minneapolis 
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI 








On Aug 15, 2017, at 8:40 AM, Joel Aronson via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> wrote: 





WOW! Don't know the boat, but could be a bargain. 





https://annapolis.craigslist.org/boa/d/cc-landfall/6264221307.html 





-- 


Joel 
301 541 8551 




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Re: Stus-List Boat operating manual

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I have a set of checklists for Grenadine. In fact I just updated it yesterday 
so my crew can race her next week in my absence. I keep a laminated printout of 
it on board. My document is not as thorough as yours, largely because Grenadine 
doesn't have as many systems as Touche (refrigeration, navigation, inverter, 
etc.) but the basics are pretty similar. I've appended Grenadine's checklists 
below. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 



Grenadine Checklists 


Opening the Boat: 
* unlock and unlatch companionway and lazarets; put padlocks back 
* remove companionway hatch boards and stow below on port-side shelf 
* open forward hatch to air out boat 
* ensure vanity sink drain seacock is closed (it should be) 
* turn battery switch to all 
* manually pump bilge (handle in starboard lazaret) 


Preparing to Sail: 
* select a headsail: drifter<10mph, #2 genoa 10-20mph, #3 genoa >20mph 
* rig the headsail: shackle the tack, attach the halyard, tie & lead sheets 
* uncover & rig mainsail (attach halyard, unpile sheet & traveler lines) 
* get out winch handles (port lazaret, tupperware on shelf) 
* uncover tiller 
* stow loose items in cabin, put coolers & bags on floor 
* close forward hatch 


Starting the Engine: 
* open raw water intake seacock (in starboard lazaret, on hull, blue handle) 
* open fuel supply petcock (in starboard lazaret, above tank starboard forward 
corner) 
* run blower 5 minutes 
* pull out choke 
* pull out ignition 
* press starter button 
* push choke in as she warms up 


Getting Underway: 
* cast off all (four) dock lines 
* back her out of the slip. Look for traffic, anticipate what the wind will do 
to her. 
* while backing, the bow will move whichever way you point the tiller. 
* when clear of the slip, shift to forward and drive her out of the marina. 
* untie fenders & stow in port lazaret 
* close lifeline gate 


Setting Sail: 
* loosen mainsheet, outhaul, cunningham, reef lines 
* untie & raise mainsail 
* trim / tidy lines 
* shut off engine (push in ignition & blower) 
* leave shift lever in forward gear 
* untie & raise headsail, trim sheets 


Dousing Sails: 
* start engine per above checklist 
* drive into wind 
* douse headsail & tie down 
* douse mainsail, flake & tie down 


Docking: 
* hang fenders: two large ones to starboard; two small ones to port 
* open lifeline gate 
* drive her into the slip. Anticipate what the wind will do to her while 
docking. 
* crew step onto dock and pull / hold boat, cleat dock lines 


Putting the boat away: 

On Deck: 
* flake, bag & stow headsail 
* coil & stow sheets 
* shackle headsail halyard to flag halyard cleat on starboard lower shroud 
* shackle main halyard to stern pulpit brace on starboard side 
* flake, tie, & cover mainsail 
* cover tiller 
* put away winch handles (port lazaret, tupperware on shelf) 
* coil & hang, or flemish, all lines 

Below: 
* close & latch forward hatch 
* ensure head is flushed and empty 
* ensure vanity sink drain seacock is closed (it should be) 
* switch off all circuits at panel 
* turn battery switch to off 
* close raw water intake seacock 
* close fuel supply petcock 
* lock companionway & lazarets 
* close lifeline gate 


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Re: Stus-List Wikipedia. featuring a few different C models

[RANDY via CnC-List]

That is a beautiful boat, Ken. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Ken Heaton via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Ken Heaton"  
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 5:30:16 PM 
Subject: Stus-List Wikipedia. featuring a few different C models 

For my fellow C 37/40 owners and other list members, I recently noticed 
someone put several articles on Wikipedia, featuring a few different C 
models. 

I thought is was time I added one for the C 37/40 series: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%26C_37/40 

Have a look and let me know what I may have missed. 

Thank you, 



/ / (\ \ . / ) (\ \ (\ \ \ . (\ / ) / /) / 

Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin 
S/V Salazar - Can 54955 
C 37/40 XL - Hull # 67 
Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia 

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Re: Stus-List 73 30 MK1 Bilge Pump

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Steve my 1972 C 30 MK I (hull #7) has a deep sump under the mast step. Yours 
probably does too, and that's probably where the pump is. Hate to break it to 
you but the only way to access it is to pull the mast up (or out) and remove 
the mast step. For detail and pictures etc. have a look at the "bilge plumbing" 
section on page 26 of this document: 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTUlhmbUs4YTZlZnM . 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Steven A. Demore via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Steven A. Demore"  
Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2017 6:08:04 PM 
Subject: Stus-List 73 30 MK1 Bilge Pump 



While we’re having so many conversations on bilge pumps, I have another 
question for you. I picked up a project ’73 30’ MK 1. There is a float switch 
in the bilge, right under the forward access hole. There are wires leading 
forward through the bilge toward the mast, as well as a hose that leads out of 
the bilge, around the head, up the wall by the holding tank, and out through a 
drain at the top of the hull (I had assumed it to be a vent previously). I have 
reached up through the bilge as far as I can, put a camera in there and took 
some pictures, used a mirror and flashlight, everything I could think of (I 
don’t have a borescope), but I can’t find the pump or the end of the 
hose/wires. Does anybody know how to access the pump and whether it is screwed 
down? It almost has to be forward of the mast, but I can’t reach it. I don’t 
want to pull too hard on the hose, but I need to find the pump and see what 
kind of shape it is in. Any ideas? 
Thanks, 
Steve 

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Re: Stus-List Bilge Pump Wiring (Cont...)

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Scratching my head. Presumably the point of the second battery switch is to 
switch some circuit(s) open or closed. But to me it's weird. I'd generally 
expect the switching to be on the hot side of the circuits, and all grounding 
to be (unswitched) to the engine block and therefore the prop shaft. (Not that 
I'm all that experienced with boat electrical systems). Where does the black 
cable off the "common" stud of that second battery switch run to? 

Regarding the #1 battery, an easy test to isolate battery fault versus other 
faults would be to connect it to a known good charger (only). If it won't 
charge up or hold a charge, it's the battery. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Chris Hobson via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Chris Hobson"  
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2017 11:44:42 PM 
Subject: Stus-List Bilge Pump Wiring (Cont...) 


Thanks for all the feedback regarding the bilge re-wire on my 30-1, very 
helpful advice really appreciate it. I’m now going down the rabbit-hole of 
electrical and figured I’d post a few photos because maybe something is 
glaringly obvious with my current setup and one of you can point it out. 

I discovered a secondary battery switch today for all the negative battery 
terminals from my #2 house battery under the galley cupboard, not sure how 
common it is to have two main battery switches like this. 

Also found out, as I accidentally left the main battery switch on #1 battery 
the other night from too much vino, it’s still dead and hasn’t recharged even 
though I’m connected to shore power (albeit a sketchy shore power hookup) to my 
True-charge battery charger. 

Could be one of two things: battery #1 is toast might remove and do a load 
test, or try to find if there’s a power draw somewhere down the line that 
surpasses the 10amp charger. Surveyor thinks it’s a badly hardwired autopilot 
and noted curious oxide on the prop, but I don’t know enough about bad wiring. 
So anyway here are some photos of my current setup: 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_lwczpvPcEHd3R5NXVlNC1tRkE?usp=sharing 

Photo #1: Cabin main switches - lights illuminated from lazarette being open. 

Photo #2: New battery switch discovered under galley counter port-side for 
negative terminals. 

Photo #3: Truecharge 10amp Battery Charger hooked up to shore power. Neg and 
Pos go to battery #2 and a third Pos wire goes to battery #1. 

Photo #4: Truecharge wiring on batteries. 

Photo #5: Wide shot of negative terminals(below) going in port-side cupboard 
under galley counter to main battery switch #2, Pos terminals going to main 
Cabin for battery switch #1. 

The way I see it I have three options: 

A: Call a marine electrician - I did this morning and he’s booked till 
September figured I may as well just keep up the detective work 
B: Something is glaringly obvious about this setup and one of you points it out 
C: Keep digging 

Chris Hobson 
S/V Going 
C 30-1 #615 
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Re: Stus-List Wiring Bilge Direct to Battery

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Hi Chris, 

I just did that this year. It's straightforward. You just have to have all the 
supplies and tools. On my 30-1 the three-way switches for the bilge pumps (I 
have two) are mounted under the galley sink, through the plywood separating the 
starboard lazaret from the space under the galley sink. If you mount your 
switch there, you'll need a drill and jigsaw to cut a hole for the switch. 

Then you'll need some ring terminals matching the size of your battery's studs 
and the size of your wire. If the wiring on your switch and pump is 16-gauge 
like mine, it's easiest to get bulk 16-gauge wire in red and black. You'll need 
some 16-gauge butt connectors to connect the wires on the back of the switch to 
the wires on the pump and to the wire run over to the battery. And you'll need 
a wire cutter, wire stripper, and a crimping tool. 

In my case since I have two batteries and two pumps, I mounted terminal strips 
enclosed in junction boxes to the plywood near the batteries (port side), and 
near the switches (starboard side). I connected the positive studs of both 
batteries to one terminal strip, and the negative studs to the other. Then I 
did one run of red and black over to the terminal strips on the starboard side 
where the pump switch leads connected. And of course you'll want some cable 
clamps to run the wires neatly and keep them in place. 

You can get all the stuff you need at West Marine, though the tools are 
probably less expensive elsewhere. I think I bought my crimper at Harbor 
Freight. And a good reference on boat electrical systems is 
https://www.amazon.com/Caseys-Complete-Illustrated-Sailboat-Maintenance/dp/0071462848
 - I recommend it. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Chris Hobson via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Chris Hobson"  
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2017 11:23:32 AM 
Subject: Stus-List Wiring Bilge Direct to Battery 

Need to wire the bilge pump direct to the battery and bypass the distribution 
panel. Currently have to turn battery on for it to work. Simple enough, just 
not something I've done before. Has anyone wired this or know how to install a 
switch (3-way) to do so? No I'm not an electrician and yes I'm aware of the 
consequences of electricity. 

Chris Hobson 
s/v Going 
1980 C 30 MK1 
Hull #615 
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Stus-List so, who's gonna step up?

[randy via CnC-List]

http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/07/29/breaking-the-mold/

 

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Re: Stus-List C 30 boomvang issue

[RANDY via CnC-List]

For what it's worth, my Garhauer rigid vang (not hydraulic) on my 30-1 fastens 
to the mast and boom with screws - six or eight screws per base plate. I had to 
use very specific sizes of drill bits and thread taps matching the fat 
deep-threaded screws Garhauer sent me. It's a solid installation and has 
withstood gusts nearing 40 knots multiple times these last two years. Is 
tapping and screwing an option for fastening your vang? 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Dennis C. via CnC-List"  
To: "CnClist"  
Cc: "Dennis"  
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 10:02:02 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C 30 boomvang issue 

I'm guessing they were aluminum rivets. "Every high load" rivet I installed in 
a mast was stainless coated with TefGel. 

However, to install larger stainless rivets, you need a BIG rivet tool like a 
Marson Big Daddy. They run about $150. 

If it were me, I'd punch out the old rivets and reinstall with stainless. Is 
there a rental shop around where you can rent a Big Daddy? 

Dennis C. 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
Mandeville, LA 

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:29 AM, Bill Nickel via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 


During my recent "race" in the Lake Ontario 300 (actually the shorter scotch 
bonnet race) my hydraulic boom bang broke off at the base of the mast. The 
rivets appear to have sheared off. 
I have the local boat repair company taking a look, but t I am curious if 
anyone has suggestions? 

Bill Nickel 

"adagio" 

1977 C 30 mk 1 


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Re: Stus-List Original Rig, (was US Watercraft receivership)

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Grenadine's rig and deck hardware is all-original, old-school. No furler, lazy 
jacks, self-tailing winches, rope clutches. My crew has to grind and tail and 
cleat to horn cleats, and flake sails manually. For two years they didn't know 
any better because they're newbies :) But one of them jumped on a shorthanded 
competitor's boat the other week and came back jealous of his furler and 
self-tailing winches. In defense I had to explain how much it would cost to 
upgrade :) I'd rather spend the money on new sails. While I can appreciate the 
merits of all those conveniences especially for leisure sailing, for racing I 
like being able to make a last-minute headsail choice right before leaving the 
dock, or even changing the headsail on the fly. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Chuck Borge via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Chuck Borge"  
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 4:54:13 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Original Rig, (was US Watercraft receivership) 

Years of racing J24s, J30s & Etchells, never thought I'd have a furler. Now a 
little older, wiser and sporting a Stackpack too. 

Not the fastest setup, but still finding a way to win club races. 
And my wife and I can be off the mooring and sailing in minutes. Put-away is 
just as quick. I am sure we use our boat many times more than those around us 
just because it is so easy. No sail- folding arguments either! 

Enjoy! 

Chuck B 
C 34 
Elusive 


Sent from my iPhone 

On Jul 25, 2017, at 6:17 PM, robert via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 




Bill 
You will never regret putting a furler on your boat. 

Rob Abbott 
AZURA 
C 32 - 84 
Halifax,N.S. 

On 2017-07-25 6:00 PM, Bill Dakin via CnC-List wrote: 



Tapestry is all original from '81, no 'conveniences' of furler, self tailers, 
clutches, or any modern rigging. It's kind of interesting being the throwback 
to older times among all the jazz on my dock. Alas, I asked our rigger to quote 
a Schaefer furler last week. 
Bill Dakin 
S/V Tapestry, 
'81 25 MKII 



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Re: Stus-List US Watercraft receivership

[RANDY via CnC-List]

So this is the company that owns the C name and builds the new C 30 
one-design racing sled with open transom and bulb keel? Going into 
receivership? Sad. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Don Harben via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Don Harben"  
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 9:21:37 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List US Watercraft receivership 

Hmmm 

I asked a friend how many times C might have repeated this: 
He says ... 

"Let me try 
1. First it was that airline guy 
2. North South charter guy 
3. Hong Kong guy 
4 Tartan Yachts guy 
5. Now US Watercraft. 

That's 5! Must be a record in the industry!" 

Don 

Don Harben 
Viking 34 
Life 
www.ncyc.ca 


> On Jul 24, 2017, at 11:05 PM, rjcasciato--- via CnC-List 
>  wrote: 
> 
> Dennis..it's the old adage..if you don't learn from historyyou're 
> destined to repeat it. 


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Re: Stus-List Voltages

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Well, if I learned an expensive lesson, I'll just have to accept that. I 
checked all the cells before putting the charger on them, and they were full. 
After charging they are still full (even though I heard the liquid bubbling 
i.e. creating and venting gas toward the end of the charging period). 

The one battery I put back on the boat yesterday was able to start my A4 and 
run my electrical stuff no problem, just like normal before all this. I'll take 
the other down to the boat tomorrow and measure its voltage with my multimeter- 
it will have been at rest, disconnected, for 24+ hours by then. But I know 
there is a difference between instantaneous voltage and amp-hour capacity. 
These are deep-cycle batteries, and I cycled them very deeply :) 

I'll just have to monitor the situation for the rest of the season and see how 
bad my mistakes are going to hurt :) 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Fred Hazzard via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Fred Hazzard" <fshazz...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 3:27:38 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Voltages 

I can tell you from personal experience that AGMs won't servive either. I had 4 
hooked in parallel that I flattened to 4.5 v . A painful experience. At the 
same time I lost my inverter charger. 

Fred Hazzard 
S/V Fury 
C 44 
Portland, Or 

On Jul 20, 2017 12:34 PM, "Bill Bina - gmail via CnC-List" < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 





I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if those voltages of 4.7 volts and 
5.7 volts were correct, they mean these batteries have been quite severely 
damaged and will never have anywhere near full capacity again. That is not a 
maybe. You can get many batteries like that to take a surface charge and appear 
okay with a voltage reading that looks somewhat normal. There is no muscle 
behind it. The charger is telling you they are 100% charged to their new and 
very diminished capacity. Some of the cells may also have run dry. This was not 
survivable for any flooded battery regardless of quality, or how it was treated 
otherwise. 


Bill Bina 

On 7/20/2017 10:10 AM, RANDY via CnC-List wrote: 



An update on this. Monday morning I brought my batteries home (I've got two of 
these: 
https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart-Maxx-Marine-Battery-Group-Size-29DC/20531539
 dated May/June 2014 with relatively light use and constantly maintained by a 
3amp solar charger). And I bought this inexpensive charging unit: 
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Schumacher-Electric-15-Amp-Battery-Charger/46167057 
. 

One battery measured 4.7v before charging, and the other 5.7v, according to the 
charger's test function. Each battery was on the charger for about 33 hours to 
charge back up to 13.2v / 13.5v and 100% charge according to the charger. I 
haven't measured their voltage independently after charging with a multi-meter, 
but I did that at the start of the season and they were healthy. 






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Stus-List Powerboaters Destroying Race Marks

[RANDY via CnC-List]

As long as we're bitching about powerboaters, I'll just chime in that Colorado 
Sail & Yacht Club has had three of our racing marks shattered already this year 
in what I can only assume were high-speed impacts by negligent or malicious 
(i.e. asshole) powerboaters. We use 55-gallon plastic drums filled with 
swimming noodles so they stay afloat when the assholes hit them. I've asked the 
State Park if we can use 55-gallon metal drums so they hole the assholes' boats 
on impact, but the State Park won't let us. Costs us about $75 and a whole 
bunch of time every time we have to remove and replace one. Frickin' pisses me 
off. Your average powerboat operator is a frickin' idiot. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
Commodore, Colorado Sail & Yacht Club 
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Re: Stus-List Voltages

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I may have a similar issue. Went out for sail with guests today and discovered 
my batteries were dead. Couldn't even light the florescent light over the 
dinette, let alone start the engine. So, left and returned to dock under sail 
power. 

Last Wednesday night, no problems with the electrical system. I think the main 
battery switch may have been left on, running the depth meter and stereo 
display for three plus days. It's also possible I had a bilge pump cycling. 

My charge controller was indicating no charging of the batteries from the solar 
panel. I don't know if that's a byproduct of dead batteries, or an issue with 
the charge controller or solar panel. 

I'm thinking I should pull the batteries out of the boat, bring them home, and 
charge them, then put them back in the boat and see if the solar charging 
starts working again, and if the batteries drain again (with the main switch 
off and no water in the bilge this time). I have a multi-meter and know how to 
use it and can diagnose the system from first principles if necessary. 

The batteries were new in 2014 and are very clean and have the correct amount 
of water in them. And the solar charging system has worked flawlessly to date, 
though its capacity is small. 

Any suggestions? Especially on what kind of charger to use to charge the 
batteries? 

Thanks, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Dennis C. via CnC-List"  
To: "CnClist"  
Cc: "Dennis"  
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2017 6:14:22 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Voltages 

I agree with Jim's recommendations. If you do take them somewhere for testing 
and they tell you anything less than an hour to test, go somewhere else. 

Dennis C. 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
Mandeville, LA 

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Jim Watts via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> wrote: 



Tom, battery voltage should be tested after resting for an hour or more after 
charging. Your charging voltage sounds about in the right range, but you are 
measuring the voltage coming out of the charging source, not the battery. 13.2 
V is about minimum voltage to overcome internal resistance and actually charge 
the battery. A healthy charged battery will test at around 12.65+ after resting 
for 12 hours. Each battery will have to be checked individually, so they should 
not be interconnected for that. Just remove the black wire for testing, you 
don't have to totally strip them. 
In addition, get a good battery hydrometer and check each cell for the right 
specific gravity. My battery guys recommend the EZ Red unit, and I agree. ( 
http://www.ezred.com/product/battery-hydrometer/ ) I had THREE cheap 
hydrometers give me similar readings that were nowhere near reality, and that 
cost me a couple of weeks of anxiety while cruising, and a lot of work taking 
the three Group 31's out and having them tested for real with a pro analyzer, 
then reinstalling them. West Marine stores generally have a load-testing type 
of analyzer if you drag the batteries in to the store, but I'd advise taking 
them to a real battery shop if you're going to that amount of labour. Good 
luck. 



Jim Watts 
Paradigm Shift 
C 35 Mk III 
Victoria, BC 

On 16 July 2017 at 15:37, Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 



I stressed out m house bank pretty bad by leaving the frig on and the D.C. On, 
but the shore power, and this the charger, came lose on the boat due t my 
sloppy connecting. 

It was discovered after 3 days or so. I am concerned that the batteries may be 
damaged beyond use...just like the set of house batteries these replaced, after 
two full days at anchor with the frig runningh. 

Very lagged with them all still wired into the boat are around 12.5. 13.2 when 
the engine is running and 13.7 with the charger on. 

Some questions for the list's cumulative wisdom... 

Do I need to disconnect the battery to accurately assess its health? 

Are these voltages in an appropriate rage? 

thx 

Tom Buscaglia 
S/V Alera 
1990 C 37+/40 
Vashon WA 
P 206.463.9200 
C 305.409.3660 







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Re: Stus-List C 30 MK1 General Questions

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Steve- 

I put a bunch of pictures of my starboard settee, including with measurements 
of the plywood piece, at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTRmlMT2g0anYwTHM . 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "RANDY via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "RANDY" <randy.staff...@comcast.net> 
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:41:34 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C 30 MK1 General Questions 

My 1972 30 MK I (hull #7) has the same metal brackets, which go through slots 
in a piece of plywood that slides inboard to make a wider berth. The plywood 
piece has a piece of trim along the inboard edge that acts as a fiddle to hold 
the cushion in place. I'll try to remember to snap a couple pictures tomorrow 
night to post for you. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Joseph Bognar via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Joseph Bognar" <jbog...@sympatico.ca> 
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:13:07 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C 30 MK1 General Questions 

I would replace the water tank and not take any chances with it . Some photos 
of your sette would help also. My 30 is of the 1979 vintage . I have an extra 
piece of plywood on top of the sette . It slides between the metal brackets and 
pulls out to make the bed a bit bigger to lay on . 

Sent from Joe Bognar 


On Jul 11, 2017, at 7:59 PM, Steven A. Demore via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 






Need some help/advice from some more experienced C people. I am rebuilding a 
’73 30 MK1 project boat, that was started a few years ago by another person and 
abandoned along the way. I am focused on the settee area right now. First, I 
think I can get the mold cleaned out of the water tank, but it looks like there 
are some fine cracks in the bottom. Is there something that I can do to seal it 
up (paint, liner, ?) that would be safe for potable water? 



Second, the settee itself has a couple of metal brackets on the top that would 
keep cushions from sitting flat. Can somebody tell me how the settee goes 
together, i.e. is there a board on top or something? A picture might be helpful 
as well, since I am going to have to build whatever goes in there. 



I’m sure that I’ll have a lot more questions as this project commences, so 
thanks in advance! 


Steve 



SV Doin’ It Right 
1973 C 30 MK1 
Pasadena, MD 







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Re: Stus-List C 30 MK1 General Questions

[RANDY via CnC-List]

My 1972 30 MK I (hull #7) has the same metal brackets, which go through slots 
in a piece of plywood that slides inboard to make a wider berth. The plywood 
piece has a piece of trim along the inboard edge that acts as a fiddle to hold 
the cushion in place. I'll try to remember to snap a couple pictures tomorrow 
night to post for you. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Joseph Bognar via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Joseph Bognar"  
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:13:07 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C 30 MK1 General Questions 

I would replace the water tank and not take any chances with it . Some photos 
of your sette would help also. My 30 is of the 1979 vintage . I have an extra 
piece of plywood on top of the sette . It slides between the metal brackets and 
pulls out to make the bed a bit bigger to lay on . 

Sent from Joe Bognar 


On Jul 11, 2017, at 7:59 PM, Steven A. Demore via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 






Need some help/advice from some more experienced C people. I am rebuilding a 
’73 30 MK1 project boat, that was started a few years ago by another person and 
abandoned along the way. I am focused on the settee area right now. First, I 
think I can get the mold cleaned out of the water tank, but it looks like there 
are some fine cracks in the bottom. Is there something that I can do to seal it 
up (paint, liner, ?) that would be safe for potable water? 



Second, the settee itself has a couple of metal brackets on the top that would 
keep cushions from sitting flat. Can somebody tell me how the settee goes 
together, i.e. is there a board on top or something? A picture might be helpful 
as well, since I am going to have to build whatever goes in there. 



I’m sure that I’ll have a lot more questions as this project commences, so 
thanks in advance! 


Steve 



SV Doin’ It Right 
1973 C 30 MK1 
Pasadena, MD 







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Stus-List Night Racing Photos

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Listers- 

Colorado Sail & Yacht Club held its annual Fugawi night race Saturday night in 
the full moon. In case you're interested I added two photos to the end of 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTVnJfSm9lRnZNa1E . One shows the 
raft-up beforehand from a drone's perspective; Grenadine is third from right, 
with the tallest mast. In the other one, someone captured Grenadine's spinnaker 
casting a moon shadow, which was kind of a cool shot. It's a bit blurry, but 
that's how I was seeing things at the time, too - lots of Captain Randy's 
Famous Rum Punch consumed :) 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
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Re: Stus-List 25MKII, Tiller Length

[RANDY via CnC-List]

That's how we do it on Grenadine. I drive with my knees touching the bridge 
deck and the tiller behind my back, and the trimmers sit behind me. Gives 
everybody the most room and vision. And I have a tiller extension for when we 
need my meat on the rail too. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30 MK I hull #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "David Kaseler via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "David Kaseler"  
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 2:46:54 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List 25MKII, Tiller Length 

Hi. Good plan. 
My guess is the Anytiller guys know the original specks. Did you ask? We, on 
our 33 mark 1 bought a longer stock tiller (from West Marine I think) so the 
skipper could sit up against the bulkhead. Works really good, especially in 
racing situations. Crew working lines behind the skipper gives skipper a clear 
view during maneuvering situations. 

Dave Kaseler 
SLY 
1975 C 33 

Sent from my iPad 

On Jul 10, 2017, at 9:49 AM, Bill Dakin via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 




25MKII owners, what is your tiller length and shape 
http://anytiller.com/ 

I'm going to refit our Edson pedestal with the original tiller. 

Bill Dakin 
S/V Tapestry 





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Re: Stus-List C 40 question

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Hi Ron, 

Just out of curiosity, do you have to take a PHRF adjustment for that? The PHRF 
rules in my RSA say “The Base PHRF Rating will assume: … The yacht is as 
manufactured with its interior as designed by the manufacturer intact.” 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "rjcasciato via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "rjcasciato"  
Sent: Friday, July 7, 2017 10:53:33 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C 40 question 

Danny, Absolutely serious..Impromptu will be 40 years old in September 
I'm the 4th owner and completely refinished the interior in 1998 when I 
purchased the boat. 
I ain't doing that again 

My wife doesn't do sun, wind, or noiseso my long-standing crew of 30 years 
and I campaign the boat in the PHRF races around Boston. 

And I try to remove something wooden each year. The list of improvements over 
20 years is substantial. 

If the bathfitter project is doable. I'll consider replacing the wood 
bulkhead with high strength laminate foam sheets.structurally compatible as 
a bulkhead.half the weight.. 

But it's racing season and we're doing well so maybe next year. 

Ron 
Impromptu 
C 38 MK II #125 
1977 

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Re: Stus-List Drone Video

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Here finally is that edited drone video of Colorado Sail & Yacht Club's spring 
series race #5 on Wednesday May 31st: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBFDcQ2k2H0 

Obviously it was a light air night. Flags dropped for my fleet at 2:30 into the 
video. Grenadine is the boat with the red hull. 

Like a Tour de France breakaway that gets caught by the peloton in sight of the 
finish line, we led the fleet for all but the last few seconds of the race, 
when RC shortened course making a downwind finish, and the fleet got a lucky 
breeze from behind which allowed them to catch us. Boat-for-boat we crossed the 
line second by a hair, but almost everyone corrected over me. Oh well, I'd 
rather lose because of bad luck than my own errors (which happen enough :) 

Nice night and nice video, though. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "svpegasus38 via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "svpegasus38"  
Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:25:55 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Drone Video 

Very nice. 



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device 
Doug Mountjoy 
POYC 
Pegasus 
Lf38 
Significant Other 
LF39 

 Original message  
From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List  
Date: 7/1/17 16:55 (GMT-08:00) 
To: C List  
Cc: Josh Muckley  
Subject: Re: Stus-List Drone Video 

The pilot got around to sending me the full length video in ultra high 
resolution. I added music and trimmed the beginning and end. Pretty cool. 

https://youtu.be/uNgjeeNMBVA 

Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
1989 C 37+ 
Solomons, MD 



On Jul 1, 2017 7:37 PM, "Gary Russell via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 



What a nice video! 
Gary 
S/V Kaylarah 
'90 C 27+ 
East Greenwich, RI, USA 

~~~ _ / ) ~~ 


On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 



An amateur drone pilot spotted us while we were out sailing. He searched our 
boat name and then tracked down our web page and email. He shared the video and 
we put it on our facebook page, how cool! 

https://www.facebook.com/cbcsailing/videos/700045376848423/ 

Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
1989 C 37+ 
Solomons, MD 


-- 
When security matters. 
http://www.secure-my-email.com 




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Re: Stus-List Drone Video

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Very cool. A guy in our yacht club drone-filmed the start of a Wednesday night 
race a few weeks back. I've been pestering him for the video but it's not 
available yet. Will post once I get it. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
Commodore, Colorado Sail & Yacht Club ( http://csyc.org ) 

- Original Message -

From: "Josh Muckley via CnC-List"  
To: "C List"  
Cc: "Josh Muckley"  
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 11:27:26 AM 
Subject: Stus-List Drone Video 

An amateur drone pilot spotted us while we were out sailing. He searched our 
boat name and then tracked down our web page and email. He shared the video and 
we put it on our facebook page, how cool! 

https://www.facebook.com/cbcsailing/videos/700045376848423/ 

Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
1989 C 37+ 
Solomons, MD 


-- 
When security matters. 
http://www.secure-my-email.com 




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Re: Stus-List 33 mk2 Mast step loads

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Greg I don't know if you've already seen my write-up of my mast step rebuild 
project on my 30-1 this spring, but in case it's of any help to you, here it 
is: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTUlhmbUs4YTZlZnM 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Greg Sutherland via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Greg Sutherland"  
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 9:24:27 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List 33 mk2 Mast step loads 


Thanks everyone for the info. I spoke with Danny from Klacko spars yesterday 
and he's certain that he would have installed my original mast in '87. He 
figures even when falling into a wave with full sails the forces wouldn't 
exceed 4000 psi. Seems light to me but who am I to argue with him. 
I thought I notice Mr. Knowles at the club on the weekend so I'll definitely 
run it past him - thanks for mentioning that. 

I have the entire mast step "excavated" to the keel and am starting the 
rebuild. Can't wait for this one to be finished! 

Thanks! 
Greg 
33 mk2 
Halifax 

On Jun 27, 2017, at 10:52 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 






I used a total of ½” aluminum on mine when I rebuilt it. It looks about 20 
times stronger than the original was too. 



Joe 

Coquina 

CC 35 MK I 






From: CnC-List [ mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com ] On Behalf Of Russ & 
Melody via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 9:18 PM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Russ & Melody < russ...@telus.net > 
Subject: Re: Stus-List 33 mk2 Mast step loads 





Hi Greg, 

You can research the righting moment, at say 30 - 33 degrees, for various boats 
in your size range for a second opinion. The 33-2 is similar in stability to my 
35 mk-1(check diagram in the Technical Info on Stu's CNC site). 

I put the load at about 10,000 lbs, so building for 12 - 15,000 lbs is not a 
unreasonable. If you're going with aluminum only then I would spec it at 20,000 
for a 50% corrosion allowance and say, "I expect this to last another 20 
years." 

BTW, check with Rich Knowles on my credentials, if in doubt. :) 

Hi Rich, we miss you on the Left Coast. 

Cheers, Russ 
Sweet 35 mk-1 

At 03:15 AM 26/06/2017, you wrote: 





Does anyone know what the maximum load would be on the mast step of the 33? I'm 
trying to figure out the psi force for a rebuild 
Thanks! 

Greg 
33-2 
Halifax 
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Re: Stus-List New potential C owner... maybe?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Also I forgot to say, the asking price is about $17,700 given the current euro 
/ dollar exchange rate. If she passes a professional survey I think that's 
reasonably fair given her age and how she's equipped and assuming she looks as 
good close up as in the pictures. I paid about $16,000 for Grenadine including 
a triple-axle 38' trailer. 

One thing you should inspect of course is her sail inventory. And it wasn't 
clear from the listing and pictures whether she has any kind of battery 
charging system (solar, 12V charger from shore power, etc.). 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Sander van der Moolen"  
To: "RANDY" , "cnc-list"  
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 10:47:30 AM 
Subject: RE: Stus-List New potential C owner... maybe? 



Hi Randy, 



Thanks for the links and info, very helpful! Love the pictures and your 
detailed project report. Will certainly keep that on hand. 

Not sure if the boat has carbon spars, I will check when we go to visit it. She 
sure looks great, that’s what attracted me to the 27 back then too. 

And 1.90m headroom in the cabin, I can comfortably stand upright in there! I 
think 15k is very reasonable, especially if she’s in good shape structurally. 

I do plan to have a professional survey done. 



What is the length of the forward cabin bed, btw? We want a boat which can take 
us on vacation for a week or two (or longer) so a comfy bed is kinda important. 



Thanks! 

Sander 






Van: RANDY [mailto:randy.staff...@comcast.net] 
Verzonden: maandag 12 juni 2017 17:52 
Aan: cnc-list  
CC: sander  
Onderwerp: Re: Stus-List New potential C owner... maybe? 





That is a good-looking boat Sander. Does it have carbon spars? (I can't read 
Dutch, but it kind of looks like it in the pictures). Nice that it has tiller 
steering and all lines led aft with deck organizers etc. And a dodger. And 
spinnaker gear. In the pictures the mainsheet is removed but I can see the 
traveler car track just aft of the bridge deck. My 30-1 has tiller steering and 
boom-end sheeting with the traveler at the aft end of the cockpit, which makes 
for a very roomy cockpit (pics at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTVnJfSm9lRnZNa1E ). 





It's hard to find information on the 30E. Sailboatdata.com doesn't have it. I 
saw polar diagrams for a 30E once - see 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2016-September/088575.html 
. Apparently they were built from 1977-1982 but I don't know how many were 
built. They seem rare :) 





On my 30-1, built eight years before the boat you're looking at, the biggest 
trouble spot was the mast step supports - I had to rebuild them (see 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTUlhmbUs4YTZlZnM ). I also had 
some water ingress at the chainplate cutouts. But a professional survey, and a 
careful inspection following Don Casey's book, didn't find any deal-breakers or 
showstoppers. 





Cheers, 


Randy Stafford 


S/V Grenadine 


C 30-1 #7 


Ken Caryl, CO 



- Original Message -



From: "sander via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
To: "cnc-list" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: "sander" < san...@vpilot.net > 
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 4:24:58 AM 
Subject: Stus-List New potential C owner... maybe? 





Hi all, 





I hope everybody is enjoying a fantastic sailing season so far. It's been years 
since I subbed this list, back then you gave me great advice regarding the 
purchase of a completely stripped c 27. I ended up not buying the boat, 
mostly because I lack both experience and money to complete a rebuild project 
within any reasonable timeframe. 





In the meantime I left my employer to start my own business. After a bit of 
initial struggles, the success is giving me the benefit of expanding my budget 
for a boat, for which I am very grateful :-) 





And guess what... another c for sale just 15 mins driving from where i live. 
This one is a 30E which apparently is a European build. I live in The 
Netherlands, by the way. 


Here is a link to the boat for sale: 


http://www.devaartyachting.com/nl/956/cc-30e.html 


Really, I don't know why c keeps calling me hahaha. 





Does anyone of you have any experience with this particular model and what are 
the things I should specifically look for when going to see the boat? It's on 
blocks so I can see under the waterline as well. 





Thanks! 


Sander. 





Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. 



___ 





This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 





All Contributions are greatly appreciated! 




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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to 

Re: Stus-List New potential C owner... maybe?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Well, I don't know the exact measurement of the forward V-berth, but let me put 
it this way. I'm about 6'3" tall and I just barely fit in the V-berth. My feet 
can touch the forward bulkhead while my head touches the next one aft. And 
there's not much room forward for both my feet and my wife's feet. We find the 
most comfortable sleeping arrangement is to convert the dinette, and slide out 
the starboard settee. I can lay corner-to-corner on the converted dinette and 
have enough room. Your mileage may vary, depending on the berths in the 30E and 
your heights (the 30E appears to have settees on both sides, and a fold-down 
table around the mast. That's a different interior layout than the 30-1.) 

More pics of Grenadine (from last year) at 
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-NqAxQ6JxFTY0VBM2hlT0hveDQ . 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Sander van der Moolen"  
To: "RANDY" , "cnc-list"  
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 10:47:30 AM 
Subject: RE: Stus-List New potential C owner... maybe? 



Hi Randy, 



Thanks for the links and info, very helpful! Love the pictures and your 
detailed project report. Will certainly keep that on hand. 

Not sure if the boat has carbon spars, I will check when we go to visit it. She 
sure looks great, that’s what attracted me to the 27 back then too. 

And 1.90m headroom in the cabin, I can comfortably stand upright in there! I 
think 15k is very reasonable, especially if she’s in good shape structurally. 

I do plan to have a professional survey done. 



What is the length of the forward cabin bed, btw? We want a boat which can take 
us on vacation for a week or two (or longer) so a comfy bed is kinda important. 



Thanks! 

Sander 






Van: RANDY [mailto:randy.staff...@comcast.net] 
Verzonden: maandag 12 juni 2017 17:52 
Aan: cnc-list  
CC: sander  
Onderwerp: Re: Stus-List New potential C owner... maybe? 





That is a good-looking boat Sander. Does it have carbon spars? (I can't read 
Dutch, but it kind of looks like it in the pictures). Nice that it has tiller 
steering and all lines led aft with deck organizers etc. And a dodger. And 
spinnaker gear. In the pictures the mainsheet is removed but I can see the 
traveler car track just aft of the bridge deck. My 30-1 has tiller steering and 
boom-end sheeting with the traveler at the aft end of the cockpit, which makes 
for a very roomy cockpit (pics at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTVnJfSm9lRnZNa1E ). 





It's hard to find information on the 30E. Sailboatdata.com doesn't have it. I 
saw polar diagrams for a 30E once - see 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2016-September/088575.html 
. Apparently they were built from 1977-1982 but I don't know how many were 
built. They seem rare :) 





On my 30-1, built eight years before the boat you're looking at, the biggest 
trouble spot was the mast step supports - I had to rebuild them (see 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTUlhmbUs4YTZlZnM ). I also had 
some water ingress at the chainplate cutouts. But a professional survey, and a 
careful inspection following Don Casey's book, didn't find any deal-breakers or 
showstoppers. 





Cheers, 


Randy Stafford 


S/V Grenadine 


C 30-1 #7 


Ken Caryl, CO 



- Original Message -



From: "sander via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
To: "cnc-list" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: "sander" < san...@vpilot.net > 
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 4:24:58 AM 
Subject: Stus-List New potential C owner... maybe? 





Hi all, 





I hope everybody is enjoying a fantastic sailing season so far. It's been years 
since I subbed this list, back then you gave me great advice regarding the 
purchase of a completely stripped c 27. I ended up not buying the boat, 
mostly because I lack both experience and money to complete a rebuild project 
within any reasonable timeframe. 





In the meantime I left my employer to start my own business. After a bit of 
initial struggles, the success is giving me the benefit of expanding my budget 
for a boat, for which I am very grateful :-) 





And guess what... another c for sale just 15 mins driving from where i live. 
This one is a 30E which apparently is a European build. I live in The 
Netherlands, by the way. 


Here is a link to the boat for sale: 


http://www.devaartyachting.com/nl/956/cc-30e.html 


Really, I don't know why c keeps calling me hahaha. 





Does anyone of you have any experience with this particular model and what are 
the things I should specifically look for when going to see the boat? It's on 
blocks so I can see under the waterline as well. 





Thanks! 


Sander. 





Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. 



___ 





This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to 

Re: Stus-List C 40 bolts

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I torqued the five keel bolts on my 30-1 this spring (four at 350 ft-lbs, one 
at 250) by myself. The actual torquing part took about 15 minutes. Of course, 
the mast was off the boat, and I'd removed all the old bilge plumbing and 
cleaned the bilge. And I had to drive to a local rental place and rent a 650 
ft-lb torque wrench with a four-foot handle and various sockets, adapters, and 
extensions, then drive to return all that crap afterward. If all your bolts 
were already accessible and clear, and the yard already had the torque wrench, 
I'd think a half-hour would be the actual amount of labor. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "PETER OCAMPO via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "PETER OCAMPO"  
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 6:41:00 AM 
Subject: Stus-List C 40 bolts 

Hi guys 

Before I speak to the yard. About charging me 5 hours to torque my 5 bolts 3 
large at 450ft/lbs that I fully exposed i.e. Moved wires removed cabin table 
and covers cleared water from bildge 

just wondering what the avg time charged or if it takes multiple guys to do 
this job 

Peter 
Goonie island C 40 1983 aft cabin 

Sent from my iPhone 
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List New potential C owner... maybe?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

That is a good-looking boat Sander. Does it have carbon spars? (I can't read 
Dutch, but it kind of looks like it in the pictures). Nice that it has tiller 
steering and all lines led aft with deck organizers etc. And a dodger. And 
spinnaker gear. In the pictures the mainsheet is removed but I can see the 
traveler car track just aft of the bridge deck. My 30-1 has tiller steering and 
boom-end sheeting with the traveler at the aft end of the cockpit, which makes 
for a very roomy cockpit (pics at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTVnJfSm9lRnZNa1E ). 

It's hard to find information on the 30E. Sailboatdata.com doesn't have it. I 
saw polar diagrams for a 30E once - see 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2016-September/088575.html 
. Apparently they were built from 1977-1982 but I don't know how many were 
built. They seem rare :) 

On my 30-1, built eight years before the boat you're looking at, the biggest 
trouble spot was the mast step supports - I had to rebuild them (see 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTUlhmbUs4YTZlZnM ). I also had 
some water ingress at the chainplate cutouts. But a professional survey, and a 
careful inspection following Don Casey's book, didn't find any deal-breakers or 
showstoppers. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "sander via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "sander"  
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 4:24:58 AM 
Subject: Stus-List New potential C owner... maybe? 

Hi all, 

I hope everybody is enjoying a fantastic sailing season so far. It's been years 
since I subbed this list, back then you gave me great advice regarding the 
purchase of a completely stripped c 27. I ended up not buying the boat, 
mostly because I lack both experience and money to complete a rebuild project 
within any reasonable timeframe. 

In the meantime I left my employer to start my own business. After a bit of 
initial struggles, the success is giving me the benefit of expanding my budget 
for a boat, for which I am very grateful :-) 

And guess what... another c for sale just 15 mins driving from where i live. 
This one is a 30E which apparently is a European build. I live in The 
Netherlands, by the way. 
Here is a link to the boat for sale: 
http://www.devaartyachting.com/nl/956/cc-30e.html 
Really, I don't know why c keeps calling me hahaha. 

Does anyone of you have any experience with this particular model and what are 
the things I should specifically look for when going to see the boat? It's on 
blocks so I can see under the waterline as well. 

Thanks! 
Sander. 

Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. 

___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 

All Contributions are greatly appreciated! 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List How are the reefing lines run on a 33-2

[RANDY via CnC-List]

On my 30-1 I've got a jam cleat on the starboard side of the mast for the 
cunningham. It runs down from the cunningham cringle in the sail, through a 
cheek block at the base of the mast, then back up to the jam cleat. So the jam 
cleat prevents the tail from being pulled down. 

I've got two reef points each rigged for single-line slab reefing. The reefing 
lines run from boom port side D-rings up through the reef point clews, down 
through boom starboard-side cheek blocks, then forward to a mast-mounted double 
swivel block below the gooseneck, then up the starboard side through the reef 
point tacks, then down the port side to small cam cleats on the mast. I don't 
currently have reef hooks, so I have to "move" the tack shackle to the reef 
point tack when reefing, and back to the normal tack when unreefing. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Doug Welch via CnC-List"  
To: "C List"  
Cc: "Doug Welch"  
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 9:28:48 AM 
Subject: Stus-List How are the reefing lines run on a 33-2 

I cant seem to figure it out. I have a jam cleat on the starboard side of the 
mast the stops a line from being pulled towards the deck (is this part of it?). 
I'm stumped 


Thanks in advance 

Doug Welch 
Celtic Knot 33-2 c/b 
Frenchman's Bay 

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Re: Stus-List USCG vessel documentation renewal scam again

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Here's the guy responsible: John Soria, owner of "US Vessel Documentation" 
(uscgdocumentation.us) - https://www.facebook.com/captainjohnsoria 

His Facebook profile introduction says "Jesus is my Lord, my wife is my soul 
mate, I was destined to be an entrepreneur!". The truth is he's about as phony 
a Christian as you can imagine, and more predator than "entrepreneur". And 
that's putting it politely. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Dave Godwin via CnC-List"  
To: "C List"  
Cc: "Dave Godwin"  
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 11:17:22 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List USCG vessel documentation renewal scam again 

Indeed. Filling out my official documentation update form right now. Both the 
real and scam notices arrived at the same time, confusing my wife. 

Cheers, 
Dave Godwin 
1982 C 37 - Ronin 
Reedville - Chesapeake Bay 
Ronin’s Overdue Refit 




On Jun 5, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 

Got my "courtesy notice" from the vessel documentation scammers today. Even 
though I've never fallen for it, it really irritates me. Might send them an 
email saying "nice try, scammers". 

Again, for those new to the list, uscgdocumentation.us is a third party entity 
which will charge you about 3 times the renewal fee. 

The official documentation site is https://www.uscg.mil/nvdc/ . I notice the 
tab on this site now says "THE ONLY OFFICIAL SITE...". The fee is only $26. 

Dennis C. 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
Mandeville, LA 
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
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Re: Stus-List Intriguing challenge

[randy via CnC-List]

Ouch, Dennis, but I wonder if a drop of five minute epoxy on a small bolt or 
dowel could be used?  Perhaps a little oil squirted in to defeat adhesion 
around pin/track, clean top of pin, and glue.  Go have a couple of barley pops 
(ne’er mind that, wait til done!), and then with some judicious wiggling of 
slide, lift dowel and pin enough to move slide to top of track?  At that point 
a piece of tin could be slid between slide and track to slide back to remove.

 

Just a thought, perhaps you can develop better.  Good Luck,

randy

Tamanawas

29-II

Hood River, OR

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C. 
via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2017 10:28 AM
To: CnClist 
Cc: Dennis C. 
Subject: Stus-List Intriguing challenge

 

Was replacing end stops on the jib track this week and noticed a knurled knob 
on the deck.  It was the pull knob for the jib slide.  See pic:

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_sb5TfIENvsWm0yY3FCT0x3TjA

 

Note knob in shadow and the top of the pull pin on the slide.  It is a spring 
pin slide.

 

I have found a replacement slide but now need to remove the broken one.  This 
is the challenge.

 

Option 1:  Tie line to slide, take to winch and tension to "bind" pin in hole 
in T-track.  Drill and tap pin and insert machine screw to lift pin in order to 
slide it off.

 

Option 2:  Cut slide lengthwise, separate and remove.  I have Dremel, RotoZip 
and side grinder.  Side grinder and RotoZip would be great but they have a way 
of getting away from me.  I don't need a bunch of gouges in the deck.  Might 
take a lot of cutting wheels with the Dremel but higher comfort level with 
control of tool.

 

Option 3:  Remove the T-track.  Plug all the holes on one end, drill hole from 
back side to push pin up and slide off.  Probably would have to drill a couple 
holes.  This is by far least desirable option.

 

Option 4:  Drill/grind metal from top of slide to expose pin, remove spring and 
try to remove pin with needle nose pliers, hemostat, magnet?, etc.

 

Option 5:  Remove T-track, dumpster it and the slide.  Install new track.  
Seems dumb.

 

Options 1 and 4 seem best.  Probably won't do this job for several weeks since 
I don't expect to use the slide anytime soon.  Will advise how it went.

 

A, the joy of boat ownership.  :)

 

Dennis C.

Touche' 35-1 #83

Mandeville, LA

 

 

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Re: Stus-List Siphoning bilge pump hose?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Both these stories would seem to suggest bilge hose discharge ports low on the 
boats' transoms - is that true? If so that would seem a slightly risky location 
for discharge ports, as the stories bear out. In that situation is it possible 
to change the location of the discharge port, as in cut a new hole for a 
through-hull high up on the boat's quarter, and patch the old hole on the 
boat's transom? 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "robert via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "robert"  
Sent: Friday, June 2, 2017 6:45:20 AM 
Subject: Stus-List Siphoning bilge pump hose? 

A fellow club member with a C 41 was doing a trip from Halifax, N.S. to St. 
John's, Newfoundland.at 2 a.m. an off-watch crew member heard the electric 
bilge pump running and wouldn't stopthe water kept coming into the bilge 
and they didn't know where it was coming from.all hands are now awake 
searching every possible thru hull, valve, etc looking for the source of the 
waterno luck and they are getting very nervous.everyone puts on a PFD 
and the life raft is untied just in case. 

There is a following seafinally one of the crew realizes the water is 
coming in from the hose of the manual pump.with the following sea, the 
water started siphoning into the boat through the manual bilge pump hose. They 
cut the hose where it runs aft in the lazaret and put a wooden plug is the back 
end. No more manual bilge pump for the rest of the voyage but it didn't bother 
them.they were now safe.that was a bit of excitement in the middle of 
the night. 

I had a similar setup for the manual bilge pump hose on my 32, however, after I 
heard their story, now there is a high loop and a check vale. And I won't be 
doing any crossings from Halifax to St. John's. 


Rob Abbott 
AZURA 
C 32 - 84 
Halifax, N.S. 



On 2017-06-01 10:26 AM, Joe Boyle via CnC-List wrote: 



We had a nasty scare last night after our Wednesday night race. We were 
motoring back to the dock - about a half hour trip and I climbed down the 
companionway into about 2 inches of bay water. The bilge was full and 
overflowing as we motored along. Inspection revealed no leaks that i could see 
from the engine compartment - shaft log, water pump, muffler and exhaust and 
thru hulls were all fine. I jump up to the head and check all 3 thru hulls 
there - all dry. 

We finally get the auto bilge pump working and pumped all the water out - and 
no more leak. I believe that the float switch may have been stuck. 

So here's my theory - under power the 30 MK1 tends to squat and the bilge 
outlet is below the water on the stern. We had had rain the week before and I 
had neglected to turn on the manual switch to get out the last of any water in 
the bilge - the float switch always leaves a few cupfuls in the bilge. I am 
thinking that while under way with the outlet submerged, the bilge pump cycled 
on. Then - as usual - the remaining water in the hose flowed back into the 
bilge. But this time with the outlet underwater, it started water siphoning 
into the boat. 

After cleaning it all up I checked it in the morning - and it was dry as usual. 
The bilge hose has a high loop in it but no air break or check valve. 

I am thinking a check valve or an air break would keep this from happening 
again - any opinions would be welcome. 

Oh - and I think I will fix the manual bilge pump that I have been putting off 
for a while! 

thanks, 

Joe 


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___ 

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All Contributions are greatly appreciated! 

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Re: Stus-List Siphoning bilge pump hose?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Hi Joe, 

This offseason I overhauled my 30-1's bilge plumbing, so spent some time 
thinking through the design issues. Wrote it all up at 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2017-March/091421.html . 

I use my manual diaphragm pump, a Whale Gusher 10 mounted under the cockpit 
sole, for pumping out the lowest inch+ of "nuisance water" every time I visit 
the boat - I don't mind. I rebuilt it last year with a rebuild kit after the 
old diaphragm tore. 

The electric pumps are for emergencies i.e. serious leaks. I leave them 
switched to automatic mode and their circuits are wired directly to the 
batteries. I calculate they could run for about 80 hours before depleting the 
batteries, if a leak starts while the boat is unattended. 

I was swayed by the opinion of a marine surveyor that there shouldn't be check 
valves downstream of electric centrifugal pumps in case they stick closed and 
prevent the pumps from doing their job. The link to that article is in the 
above posting to Stu's List. So I removed all check valves when overhauling 
Grenadine's bilge plumbing. As a result I have seen that my electric pumps can 
cycle when hose water drains back in, but it's not an issue because I pump out 
the nuisance water frequently enough with the manual pump. 

Grenadine's discharge is on her port quarter at the cove stripe, and the 
discharge hoses have high loops under the cockpit coaming there. If all that 
ever submerges deep enough and long enough to create a siphon, it means I've 
already got bigger problems i.e. my cockpit is submerged. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Joe Boyle via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Joe Boyle"  
Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 7:26:53 AM 
Subject: Stus-List Siphoning bilge pump hose? 

We had a nasty scare last night after our Wednesday night race. We were 
motoring back to the dock - about a half hour trip and I climbed down the 
companionway into about 2 inches of bay water. The bilge was full and 
overflowing as we motored along. Inspection revealed no leaks that i could see 
from the engine compartment - shaft log, water pump, muffler and exhaust and 
thru hulls were all fine. I jump up to the head and check all 3 thru hulls 
there - all dry. 

We finally get the auto bilge pump working and pumped all the water out - and 
no more leak. I believe that the float switch may have been stuck. 

So here's my theory - under power the 30 MK1 tends to squat and the bilge 
outlet is below the water on the stern. We had had rain the week before and I 
had neglected to turn on the manual switch to get out the last of any water in 
the bilge - the float switch always leaves a few cupfuls in the bilge. I am 
thinking that while under way with the outlet submerged, the bilge pump cycled 
on. Then - as usual - the remaining water in the hose flowed back into the 
bilge. But this time with the outlet underwater, it started water siphoning 
into the boat. 

After cleaning it all up I checked it in the morning - and it was dry as usual. 
The bilge hose has a high loop in it but no air break or check valve. 

I am thinking a check valve or an air break would keep this from happening 
again - any opinions would be welcome. 

Oh - and I think I will fix the manual bilge pump that I have been putting off 
for a while! 

thanks, 

Joe 

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Re: Stus-List Chesapeake bay

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I've got to say, I agree with you :) 

Don't know how many 30s are on the Chesapeake, but found this video from two 
years ago of one ripping along at 6.5 kts SOG: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAzsfZRu2EE, posted by "AdmiralMaggieMD". 

Started this 2017 photo album of Grenadine on Chatfield Reservoir: 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTVnJfSm9lRnZNa1E 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Andrew Burton via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Andrew Burton"  
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 2:28:48 PM 
Subject: Stus-List Chesapeake bay 

Just passed a gorgeous 30 named Foxy ghosting beautifully along at the head of 
Chesapeake Bay. Love those boats! 

Andy 
C 40 
Peregrine 

Andrew Burton 
61 West Narragansett Ave 
Newport, RI 
USA 02840 

+401 965 5260 


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Re: Stus-List The beauty of theC 39

[RANDY via CnC-List]

All this got me curious so I looked and have to agree, the 39 is beautiful. A 
while back I read Yacht Design According to Perry to learn the concepts and 
vocabulary, but I lack the words and experience to articulate why the 39 is so 
beautiful. The review on cncphotoalbum does justice ( 
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/reviews/review39.htm ). Apparently only 48 built, 
starting 1971 ending 1974 according to sailboatdata.com. 

Speaking of Catalina 27s, whooped 'em again last night :) The entire fleet was 
trying to barge the committee boat end of the starting line, and I was lucky 
enough to be in the right place at the right time to push 'em all above the RC 
boat :) Last week Grenadine beat the Catalina 27s by 2.5-3.5 minutes in a 
26-minute race in 20mph winds, and their skippers and crews are much more 
experienced sailors than me and my crew! 

I am glad to have a boat with some character and distinction and quality and 
performance even if she is an older gal. I learned to sail from an old Canadian 
salt ( https://www.victoriasailingschool.com/index.php/home/ownership ) who has 
a J/30, and when I asked him about potentially buying a C he said "they build 
a good boat". 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Andrew Burton via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Andrew Burton"  
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 8:51:11 AM 
Subject: Stus-List The beauty of theC 39 

The discussions here on the beauty of the C 39 might be taken as the self 
congratulatory preening of smug owners were not the facts on their side. While 
I'm particularly partial to the 40, I agree that the 39 is floating art. I 
sailed on a 39 called Pachena in the 70s and fell in love with the boat right 
then and there. 

While looking for a cruising boat, I lusted after a 39, but the layout didn't 
suit my wife and I. But I did have a couple of chats with Bob Perry about the 
39. If you think the 39 owners on the list are smitten with their boats, you 
should hear what one of the best yacht designers in the world has to say about 
them and the way they look. It's like listening to an expert talk about his 
favorite wine! 

Congrats to all who are lucky enough to own one of these gems! And to all the 
rest of us, too. It's remarkable how lovely our boats are compared to the 
competition, whether contemporary or modern. When I was a lad, the Catalina 27 
was a direct competitor to the C 27 (like my dad owned), but there was no 
comparison in looks or quality. Nowadays, when I sail Peregrine home to Newport 
from Cutty Hunk, I am generally close hauled with the sheets eased just a bit 
and laying my mark with no problem as I watch modern slide to leeward and 
eventually give up and turn on the engine to motor the rest of the way. And 
they look ugly while they do it! 

Happy sailing 
Andy 
C 40 
Peregrine 

-- 
Andrew Burton 
61 W Narragansett Ave 
Newport, RI 
USA 02840 
http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ 
phone +401 965 5260 

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Re: Stus-List Honey - was RE: A C 39 that has not been trashed! Was C 39 trash project

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Mike I am discovering the things you write about - "make it as it should be", 
"lavishing attention on our boats", etc. My wife has noticed that last one too 
:) I've been using the excuse "I'm just doing what the boat deserves"! 

How does that joke go again? A psychiatrist told a patient that men have boats 
because they can't have mistresses, but the psychiatrist got it backwards. Men 
have mistresses when they can't have boats :) 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Mike via CnC-List Hoyt"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Mike Hoyt"  
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 7:52:07 AM 
Subject: Stus-List Honey - was RE: A C 39 that has not been trashed! Was C 
39 trash project 



Maybe more than it could be sold for but definitely not more than it is worth. 
Worth is measured in more than dollars and the reality is that to take any boat 
and make it as it should be can be many thousands or tens of thousands more 
than the purchase price. The only difference as I see it is that spending 
$20,000 on regular maintenance on a newer $250,000 boat seems more normal than 
doing so on an older $40,000 boat. They are both still sailboats and cost the 
same to run. 



Lavishing attention on our boats is often reward enough by itself and some may 
suggest that it is more rewarding to some of us than doing the same to people! 



Mike 

Persistence 

Also spent way too much over the past 4 years (and the 10+ before that!) 



From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Jack 
Fitzgerald via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 9:08 AM 
To: C 
Cc: Jack Fitzgerald 
Subject: Re: Stus-List A C 39 that has not been trashed! Was C 39 trash 
project 




I have sailed and raced my 39TM at least 100,000 miles since purchase in 1975 
and even with the original rudder never suffered the round up issued mention 
earlier in the thread. However, in late 1976 C sent me a new and updated 
deeper rudder "free of charge" and the boat just simply sailed even better. 
Then in 2002, I had new high aspect rudder designed and built for Honey and 
improvement was beyond belief. Sadly, the maintenance, new UK sails & general 
upkeep over the last 4 years costs more than the boat is worth. I can honestly 
say that our C 39 TM has aged like a fine wine, after 42 years of owning her 
she just keeps getting better, I just wish that her value would increase as 
well. 





I agree, the 39 is the prettiest of the hulls that C built and they built 
some damn good looking boats. 





Best regards, 
Jack Fitzgerald 


HONEY 


US12788 











On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 7:13 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 


The 39s may have issues, but I swear they have to be about the prettiest thing 
C ever made J 

I wonder if a short bowsprit and moving the forestay out half a foot would 
solve the roundup issue. My 35 MK I looks a lot like a 39 with a few feet cut 
off and we don’t suffer that round-up issue to that extent at all. 



Joe 

Coquina 






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Re: Stus-List Fun Race Last Night

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Ok that made me laugh :D 

That's why I first noticed that speed via the replay. I sure as hell am not 
looking at my iPhone in the middle of that kind of chaos :) In fact this past 
Wednesday night when I finally got a rail in the water, I even forgot to look 
at my clinometer in all the excitement - but I suspect she was heeling around 
30 degrees. I know 25 degrees isn't enough to get the rail wet. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Gary Nylander via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Gary Nylander" <gnylan...@atlanticbb.net> 
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 12:11:53 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Fun Race Last Night 



I remember that Randy is on a lake in Colorado. More than likely his burst of 
speed is the hull settling into the water as it goes faster and thus increasing 
the waterline – and/or being heeled over which also increases the waterline. 
When my 30-1 gets the rail in the water in 20-30 knots of wind, I am generally 
too busy to look at the speed. 



I’m sure all of you nautical types remember the war stories about clipper ships 
going so fast they literally bury themselves as the make a bigger and bigger 
hole in the water. I am not interested in trying that. 



Oh well. 

Gary 



From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Gary Russell 
via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 2:01 PM 
To: C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: Gary Russell <captnga...@gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Fun Race Last Night 




Remember your GPS gives you speed over ground, while Hull Speed is speed over 
the water. A one knot favorable current can easily explain the difference. 





Gary 


S/V Kaylarah 


'90 C 37+ 


East Greenwich, RI, USA 





~~~ _ / ) ~~ 





On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 




GPS is usually in miles per hour IIRC. Knots is faster by about 15%, so 6.7kt 
times 1.15 would be about 7.7mph. 


Unless your GPS is set in kt in which case this is all wrong. 


Ron 


Wild Cheri 


C 30-1 


STL 












From: RANDY via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
To: cnc-list < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: RANDY < randy.staff...@comcast.net > 
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 3:52 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Fun Race Last Night 





I'm just as surprised as anyone. I know that 1.34 times the square root of 
24.75 (Grenadine's waterline in feet) is 6.67 knots. But apparently that's only 
a very general rule - see 
http://www.boats.com/reviews/crunching-numbers-hull-speed-boat-length and 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_speed . At 9,000 pounds displacement I 
guarantee I'm not planing :) 





But I assume GPS doesn't lie. On June 22nd last year I was using RaceQs during 
a race. I forgot to switch it off after finishing, so it recorded Grenadine 
sailing for fun in the 25-33mph gusts that piped up after the race, under full 
main and 150% genoa (which tore that night, before I could get a rail in the 
water). If you watch this replay from 19:42:50-19:43:00 local time, you'll see 
Grenadine going 7.5 knots over ground according to RaceQs GPS-based iPhone app: 


http://raceqs.com/tv-beta/tv.htm#userId=1032518=41508=2016-06-23T03:05:38Z=2016-06-22T18:08:05-06:00..2016-06-22T21:05:54-06:00=Grenadine
 





I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth :) Maybe at 25 degrees of heel my 
waterline length is appreciably longer than 24.75 feet. Or maybe I just have to 
give credit to George Cassian, George Cuthbertson, and Rob Ball for designing a 
faster-than-predicted hull form. 





Cheers, 


Randy 






From: "David Knecht via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
To: "CnC CnC discussion list" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: "David Knecht" < davidakne...@gmail.com > 
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 1:25:19 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Fun Race Last Night 





Theoretical hull speed of a C 30 is 6.7 knots (based on 25’ water line). How 
are you hitting 7.6-8? Foils? Dave 









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Re: Stus-List Fun Race Last Night

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I don't believe there is any measurable current in Chatfield Reservoir. It's a 
J-shaped inland flood control reservoir of about 2.33 square miles surface area 
and 27,000 acre-feet normal volume, on the South Platte River (also fed by the 
smaller Plum Creek). The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers generally controls 
outflow to first avoid downstream flooding, then keep the water level at 5,432' 
(full pool, ~75' max depth over riverbed) down to 5,423' in a drought. Right 
now there's 289 cfs flowing in and 120 cfs flowing out. It would be exceedingly 
rare for outflow to significantly exceed inflow, which would be the most 
probable way of causing any measurable surface-level current. 

I know the RaceQs phone app reads out in knots. Available evidence indicates 
the website replays read out in knots as well, but I'm confirming with the 
company. I'm also trying to confirm the phone app's speed measurement 
algorithm. I assume it samples the phone's GPS position at some frequency, 
computes the distance between position samples, divides by the sampling period 
to yield speed, then does unit conversion to nautical miles per hour. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Gary Russell via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "C List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Gary Russell" <captnga...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 12:00:40 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Fun Race Last Night 

Remember your GPS gives you speed over ground, while Hull Speed is speed over 
the water. A one knot favorable current can easily explain the difference. 

Gary 
S/V Kaylarah 
'90 C 37+ 
East Greenwich, RI, USA 

~~~ _ / ) ~~ 


On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 



GPS is usually in miles per hour IIRC. Knots is faster by about 15%, so 6.7kt 
times 1.15 would be about 7.7mph. 
Unless your GPS is set in kt in which case this is all wrong. 
Ron 
Wild Cheri 
C 30-1 
STL 





From: RANDY via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
To: cnc-list < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: RANDY < randy.staff...@comcast.net > 
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 3:52 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Fun Race Last Night 

I'm just as surprised as anyone. I know that 1.34 times the square root of 
24.75 (Grenadine's waterline in feet) is 6.67 knots. But apparently that's only 
a very general rule - see 
http://www.boats.com/reviews/crunching-numbers-hull-speed-boat-length and 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_speed . At 9,000 pounds displacement I 
guarantee I'm not planing :) 

But I assume GPS doesn't lie. On June 22nd last year I was using RaceQs during 
a race. I forgot to switch it off after finishing, so it recorded Grenadine 
sailing for fun in the 25-33mph gusts that piped up after the race, under full 
main and 150% genoa (which tore that night, before I could get a rail in the 
water). If you watch this replay from 19:42:50-19:43:00 local time, you'll see 
Grenadine going 7.5 knots over ground according to RaceQs GPS-based iPhone app: 
http://raceqs.com/tv-beta/tv.htm#userId=1032518=41508=2016-06-23T03:05:38Z=2016-06-22T18:08:05-06:00..2016-06-22T21:05:54-06:00=Grenadine
 

I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth :) Maybe at 25 degrees of heel my 
waterline length is appreciably longer than 24.75 feet. Or maybe I just have to 
give credit to George Cassian, George Cuthbertson, and Rob Ball for designing a 
faster-than-predicted hull form. 

Cheers, 
Randy 


From: "David Knecht via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
To: "CnC CnC discussion list" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: "David Knecht" < davidakne...@gmail.com > 
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 1:25:19 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Fun Race Last Night 

Theoretical hull speed of a C 30 is 6.7 knots (based on 25’ water line). How 
are you hitting 7.6-8? Foils? Dave 



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___ 

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Re: Stus-List Fun Race Last Night

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I'm just as surprised as anyone. I know that 1.34 times the square root of 
24.75 (Grenadine's waterline in feet) is 6.67 knots. But apparently that's only 
a very general rule - see 
http://www.boats.com/reviews/crunching-numbers-hull-speed-boat-length and 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_speed . At 9,000 pounds displacement I 
guarantee I'm not planing :) 

But I assume GPS doesn't lie. On June 22nd last year I was using RaceQs during 
a race. I forgot to switch it off after finishing, so it recorded Grenadine 
sailing for fun in the 25-33mph gusts that piped up after the race, under full 
main and 150% genoa (which tore that night, before I could get a rail in the 
water). If you watch this replay from 19:42:50-19:43:00 local time, you'll see 
Grenadine going 7.5 knots over ground according to RaceQs GPS-based iPhone app: 

http://raceqs.com/tv-beta/tv.htm#userId=1032518=41508=2016-06-23T03:05:38Z=2016-06-22T18:08:05-06:00..2016-06-22T21:05:54-06:00=Grenadine
 

I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth :) Maybe at 25 degrees of heel my 
waterline length is appreciably longer than 24.75 feet. Or maybe I just have to 
give credit to George Cassian, George Cuthbertson, and Rob Ball for designing a 
faster-than-predicted hull form. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "David Knecht via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "CnC CnC discussion list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "David Knecht" <davidakne...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 1:25:19 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Fun Race Last Night 

Theoretical hull speed of a C 30 is 6.7 knots (based on 25’ water line). How 
are you hitting 7.6-8? Foils? Dave 

Aries 
1990 C 34+ 
New London, CT 





On May 18, 2017, at 2:29 PM, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 

Congratulations Randy! Now enjoy the snowstorm! 
Chuck Gilchrest 

Sent from my iPhone 

On May 18, 2017, at 12:21 PM, RANDY via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 




It was a good night for a C 30 MK I on Chatfield Reservoir last night - 
blowing 20mph. My competition was depowering, but I flew my 150 :) Grenadine 
did round up once on the way to the windward mark, but other than that the 
amount of weather helm was about right - tiller about five degrees above 
centerline. Managed to get a rail in the water for the first time and don't 
know why - I've sailed in stronger wind with the same amount of sail - must've 
had more rail meat those times. 

Anyway, Grenadine was second across the starting line. Only tacked once, and 
overtook the leader, before rounding the windward mark. Had the thrill of 
leading the fleet from there, and took line honors. Beat the next boat, a Cal 
22, by 73 seconds in a 30-minute race, but he has a gift PHRF of 246 and should 
correct over me by a few seconds. 

Saw 8 knots on the knotmeter but don't trust its calibration and didn't verify 
with GPS. However I hit 7.6 knots on GPS last year with a fixed 2-blade prop. I 
think she can break 8 knots with her new folding prop; I can tell she's faster. 

Offseason projects paying off; wanted to share the joy. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 





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Stus-List Fun Race Last Night

[RANDY via CnC-List]

It was a good night for a C 30 MK I on Chatfield Reservoir last night - 
blowing 20mph. My competition was depowering, but I flew my 150 :) Grenadine 
did round up once on the way to the windward mark, but other than that the 
amount of weather helm was about right - tiller about five degrees above 
centerline. Managed to get a rail in the water for the first time and don't 
know why - I've sailed in stronger wind with the same amount of sail - must've 
had more rail meat those times. 

Anyway, Grenadine was second across the starting line. Only tacked once, and 
overtook the leader, before rounding the windward mark. Had the thrill of 
leading the fleet from there, and took line honors. Beat the next boat, a Cal 
22, by 73 seconds in a 30-minute race, but he has a gift PHRF of 246 and should 
correct over me by a few seconds. 

Saw 8 knots on the knotmeter but don't trust its calibration and didn't verify 
with GPS. However I hit 7.6 knots on GPS last year with a fixed 2-blade prop. I 
think she can break 8 knots with her new folding prop; I can tell she's faster. 

Offseason projects paying off; wanted to share the joy. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
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Re: Stus-List Moldy Lines

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I bring all my lines home in the fall and put them in mesh washing bags in the 
washing machine with detergent and bleach and fabric softener. They come out 
very clean and plush, but I worry a bit that it wears them. And it can ruin the 
mesh washing bags. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Josh Muckley via CnC-List"  
To: "C List"  
Cc: "Josh Muckley"  
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 4:30:05 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Moldy Lines 

I just throw mine in the washing machine. Never done it but I hear fabric 
softener is great for giving them a soft feel. 

Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
1989 C 37+ 
Solomons, MD 

On May 9, 2017 5:53 PM, "Edd Schillay via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 


Listers, 

As I prep the Enterprise for launch on Thursday, I noticed some of my halyards 
and control lines have a green moldy tint on them. 

Anyone know the best cleaning solution to use to get them back to normal? 


All the best, 

Edd 

--- 
Edd M. Schillay 
Captain of the Starship Enterprise 
C 37+ 
Sail Number: NCC-1701-B 
City Island, New York 
--- 
914.774.9767 | Mobile 
--- 
Sent via iPhone 7 
iPhone. iTypos. iApologize 



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Re: Stus-List Hunter 26 in Trouble Yesterday at Chatfield

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Correction, I mis-read the graph at 
http://wx.iwindsurf.com/map#39.548,-105.08,14,1 - the winds were only gusting 
to about 65mph, not 90. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "RANDY via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "RANDY" <randy.staff...@comcast.net> 
Sent: Monday, May 8, 2017 9:44:07 AM 
Subject: Stus-List Hunter 26 in Trouble Yesterday at Chatfield 

Yesterday afternoon at Chatfield Reservoir (where I sail) a serious squall 
passed through. A Hunter 26 had one of her lines fouled in her prop, and 
couldn't furl her headsail due to fouled rigging. So she was out of control, 
without effective propulsion or steerage, at the mercy of 60mph winds gusting 
to 90mph. She's very lucky she didn't get dashed against the rocks of the dam. 
She was eventually towed to safety by a Park Ranger boat. Video by Trish 
Dishman at 
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/756brx498hn7sj2/AAAbDUxbbYUb6UCL7hZrWUN0a/20170507_151802.mp4?dl=0
 . I was down there all day working on my boat and saw the whole thing happen. 
The guy shouldn't have gone out; you could see the weather building. A couple 
of J/22s also out there managed to ride it out by anchoring. It didn't occur to 
this Hunter guy to toss out his anchor and buy time to get his shit together. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

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Stus-List Hunter 26 in Trouble Yesterday at Chatfield

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Yesterday afternoon at Chatfield Reservoir (where I sail) a serious squall 
passed through. A Hunter 26 had one of her lines fouled in her prop, and 
couldn't furl her headsail due to fouled rigging. So she was out of control, 
without effective propulsion or steerage, at the mercy of 60mph winds gusting 
to 90mph. She's very lucky she didn't get dashed against the rocks of the dam. 
She was eventually towed to safety by a Park Ranger boat. Video by Trish 
Dishman at 
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/756brx498hn7sj2/AAAbDUxbbYUb6UCL7hZrWUN0a/20170507_151802.mp4?dl=0
 . I was down there all day working on my boat and saw the whole thing happen. 
The guy shouldn't have gone out; you could see the weather building. A couple 
of J/22s also out there managed to ride it out by anchoring. It didn't occur to 
this Hunter guy to toss out his anchor and buy time to get his shit together. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
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Re: Stus-List Prop question

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Hi Matthew, 

I had a similar problem this spring - had to pull my prop, a fixed two-blade, 
to replace it with a new Gori folding prop. I think the old prop had been on 
there about 22 years. 

I got it off with a 6" two-jaw puller from Harbor Freight. First I tried with a 
three-jaw 8" puller but it didn't fit well enough around the blades to stay on, 
so I had to drop back to a two-jaw. The 6" one came in a set of three (with two 
smaller ones) for $28. After pulling the prop off, I simply returned the entire 
set for a refund :) I would have kept the 8" three-jaw one if it had worked; it 
was only $18 and seemed like a useful thing to have around. Since you're just 
dealing with a hub, folding blades removed, I'd suggest a three-jaw puller. 

One thing: go to a hardware store and get a long spacer nut to screw on to the 
end of your prop shaft, so that the puller screw is pushing on the end of the 
spacer nut, not the end of your prop shaft. The more threads of spacer nut you 
can get on the shaft, the better IMO. When I pulled my prop this spring, the 
puller screw was bearing on the end of the prop shaft some, and it bent the tip 
of the prop shaft off-center a few degrees. Scared the crap out of me; I 
thought I was in for a prop shaft replacement job. But I was able to get the 
Gori on there and I think the Gori hub and nut may have straightened the shaft 
tip back out a bit, the way they install. I've motored about a half-dozen times 
now and can't discern any vibration or anything - the new prop works great in 
forward and reverse and under sail. So just be careful about that. 

Before putting a puller on it, I tried some other things like heat, and running 
melted candle wax into the keyhole. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Matthew L. Wolford"  
Sent: Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:08:04 PM 
Subject: Stus-List Prop question 

Listers: 
I assume this has been covered before, but what is the best way to remove a 
40-year old Martec folding prop from the shaft? The blades are off and the 
inside of the hub exposed, but the hub is not budging. Please advise. Thanks. 
Matthew L. Wolford 
638 West Sixth Street 
Erie, PA 16507 
(814) 459-9600 (Office) 
(814) 459-9661 (Fax) 
(814) 392-5599 (Cell) 

The information contained in this e-mail note and any attachments is intended 
for the personal and confidential use of the designated recipient(s). This 
communication may be an attorney-client communication, attorney work product, 
or otherwise privileged, confidential, or protected from disclosure under 
applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent, 
you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error, and 
that any review, dissemination, distribution, copying of, use of, or reliance 
upon this communication is prohibited. If you believe this communication was 
sent to you in error, do not read it. Please reply to the sender that you 
received the note in error and delete it. Thank you. 

Please consider the environment before printing this note. 

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Re: Stus-List Angled Prop Shaft

[RANDY via CnC-List]

It's to allow you to pull the prop shaft without having to drop the rudder. My 
C 30 MK I has the same design. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Richard Gotthardt via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Richard Gotthardt"  
Sent: Sunday, May 7, 2017 7:01:36 PM 
Subject: Stus-List Angled Prop Shaft 

I was looking at a 1981 34 today and noticed that the prop shaft was slightly 
angled off the center line towards the port side. Is that by design to 
counteract prop walk? 

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Re: Stus-List Sail advice - 1, 2 , 3 go

[RANDY via CnC-List]

This has been a good thread. Grenadine came with six headsails not counting 
staysails: 

#1 genoa, 163%, medium-light 
#2 genoa, 148%, medium-heavy 
drifter, 148%, light 
#3 genoa, 128%, heavy 
working jib, ~100%, medium-heavy 
storm jib, heavy 

Last year I raced mostly with the #2 genoa, occasionally the #3. I never raced 
with the #1 because it would cost me a -3 PHRF adjustment and it probably can't 
point worth crap. I'll never need the storm jib where I sail (if I get caught 
out I'm at most 1.5 miles from the marina). But based on the comments in this 
thread, maybe I'll try racing with the working jib if it's ever really blowing 
on a race night, and find a way to sheet it inboard. 

Last week, first race of the year, I flew the drifter with lightweight sheets 
in <10 kts and the boat was fast, probably due also to her new folding prop. A 
Catalina 25 gapped the fleet with a good start, but I passed and held off the 
rest of the fleet, then finally overtook her just after the last mark rounding. 
Then my sheet broke - my crew didn't have a fair lead to the winch, and the 
sheet was rubbing on the edge of the genoa car - and things went to hell. ISAF 
case 82 and a bunch of other rules came into play. 

Hoping for a better performance tonight. Looks like the same wind conditions; 
I'll probably fly the drifter again. And I'll be measuring and setting sheeting 
angles a la http://www.sailmagazine.com/racing/regattas/headsail-sheeting/ once 
I get the time. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Dennis C. via CnC-List"  
To: "CnClist"  
Cc: "Dennis"  
Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 7:20:25 AM 
Subject: Stus-List Sail advice - 1, 2 , 3 go 

Reading the thread on sail advice, there were a couple of not so obvious 
nuggets I'd like to amplify. 

A racer buddy of mine told me, you never change down from a #1 to a #2, you 
always go to the #3 or blade. Good advice. 

Couple of posts on the sail thread said something similar. 

Wind force increases with the square of speed. That's an important concept. 
Having what I'll call a linear suit of sails may not be best. That is, 155%, 
125%, 100%. It may be better, as a couple posters hinted, to go 155%, 140-145% 
(heavy), 100%. 

Touche's "official" inventory is 155% (light), 125%, 95%. I rarely use the 125. 
Boat always seems underpowered. Instead, I put up an old Pentex 155 that has 
had the leach cut down a bit. It may be around 150% now. My feeling is a 140% 
would be about right for my #2. 

Touche' does have an inboard track for the 95%. However, for 20+ knots, we 
usually sheet to the toe rail. 

When I bought the boat, it had a 170%. That incurred a penalty so I sold it. 

Dennis C. 

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Re: Stus-List Removing Old Butyl Tape

[RANDY via CnC-List]

You were so right Joe. The stuff is a miracle solvent. I happened to already 
have some at my house when you suggested this back on March 23rd. It together 
with a razor scraper has worked wonders removing old butyl, duct tape residue, 
and various other kinds of adhesive. Thanks for the tip. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Joseph Bognar via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Joseph Bognar" <jbog...@sympatico.ca> 
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 6:08:28 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Removing Old Butyl Tape 

Coleman camp fuel works the best 

Sent from Joe Bognar 


On Mar 23, 2017, at 6:36 PM, RANDY via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 




Listers- 

Any tips on solvents or techniques for removing old butyl tape used to bed deck 
hardware? 

Thanks, 
Randy 





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Stus-List Winch Handle Pockets

[RANDY via CnC-List]

When I bought Grenadine she had two Ronstan winch handle pockets - the kind 
with a velcro panel that sticks onto the boat with adhesive, then the pocket 
itself velcros to that panel. 

The other day I caught my shoe on the one in the cockpit, and pulled off the 
pocket, velcro panel and all (the adhesive failed). I contacted the company and 
they don't sell replacement panels, and the customer service rep didn't know 
what kind of adhesive was on it. 

Anybody have a favorite winch handle pocket? Or could recommend an adhesive for 
re-glueing the velcro panel in the cockpit? 

Cheers, 
Randy 
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Re: Stus-List 30-1 Mast Step Support Rebuild Project Write-Up

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thank you all for the positive feedback. 

I've made several edits to the write-up since originally posting it, including 
adding a couple of drawings with my trigonometry calculations. It should be in 
its final form now. 

Stu if you want to post it on 
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/index.htm, you are certainly welcome 
to do so. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Dennis C. via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "CnClist" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Dennis" <capt...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 3:23:22 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List 30-1 Mast Step Support Rebuild Project Write-Up 

Good job, Randy! 

Dennis C. 

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 4:39 PM, RANDY via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 



Listers- 

I put a write-up of my mast step support rebuild project this spring at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTUlhmbUs4YTZlZnM . It's an 8.5MB 
PDF because it has 23 pictures in it. Hope it can be of as much help to the C 
community as the C community has been to me. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grendine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

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Stus-List 30-1 Mast Step Support Rebuild Project Write-Up

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Listers- 

I put a write-up of my mast step support rebuild project this spring at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTUlhmbUs4YTZlZnM . It's an 8.5MB 
PDF because it has 23 pictures in it. Hope it can be of as much help to the C 
community as the C community has been to me. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grendine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
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Re: Stus-List C 37+ Keel Bolt Torqueing & Rust Stains

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I just torqued Grenadine's keel bolts last week. She's a 30-1, hull #7. Her 
forward-most bolt is 3/4" diameter with a 1&1/8" nut. The other five are 1" 
bolts with 1&1/2" nuts. I torqued them to the specs listed here: 
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/torquebolts/torquebolts.htm - 250 
ft/lbs for the forward bolt, 350 ft/lbs for the rest. I did back them off 
first, but did not lube them. On advice from Dennis and an old salt at West 
Marine, I backed off then re-torqued one bolt at a time, forward to aft. I 
found them all to be just a little bit loose - it took two or three times more 
swings of the wrench to torque them back up to spec as it did to back them off 
a bit (given the limited wrench swing room in the cabin, we're talking about 
backing them off maybe a quarter-turn, and tightening them back up maybe a half 
to three-quarter turn). I do believe doing that may have tightened up 
Grenadine's tiny "C smile" a little bit. A local equipment rental place had a 
600 ft/lb torque wrench with about a five-foot handle on it, and a long 
extension for the sockets (which was necessary). 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Ron Ricci via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Ron Ricci"  
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 6:50:21 AM 
Subject: Stus-List C 37+ Keel Bolt Torqueing & Rust Stains 



A few months ago, there was a discussion of rust stains and weeps of water 
appearing on the keel. My first thought had been that water from the bilge 
leaked around the keel bolts when the boat is on the hard. I had the boatyard 
do some exploration. They found a void in the keel that apparently filled with 
water. The void appeared threaded and may have been used to lift the keel. This 
all can be seen at: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AhpB-lul9d5YpQkMDs5DeOkS73p2 . 
Continued inspection found that there was no water leaking down from the bilge. 



While my boat is out of the water with the mast out, I’m going to torque the 
keel bolts. The C website lists torque values for ½” (80 ft-lbs), ¾” (250 
ft-lbs) and 1” (350 ft-lbs). The 37+ may have another larger size bolt. I don’t 
know where these came from but found something similar attributed to an 
employee of Mars Metal (keel manufacturer?). Can any other owners confirm a few 
things? 



1. What are the torque values that you’ve used? 

2. Did you back off the nuts and lubricate? 

3. If so, what did you use for lubrication? 



Regards, 

Ron 

Ron Ricci 

S/V Patriot 

C 37+ 

Bristol, RI 

ron.ri...@1968.usna.com 












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Re: Stus-List Adhesive Sealant for Bilge Pump

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thanks Bruce. I've got some 5200 but don't want to use it for exactly that 
reason (and that the pump strainer would have to be destructively removed if 
ever, or possibly the 5200 would weaken the strainer's plastic). 

I hadn't heard of hybrid sealant until I came across this Don Casey article 
today: http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/sealant.asp . This BoatLife Life 
Seal stuff is a mixture of polyurethane (5200) and silicone, so apparently has 
adhesive properties and won't eat plastic and can be non-destructively removed. 

Has anybody used that stuff before? 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Bruce Whitmore" <bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> 
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 3:15:31 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Adhesive Sealant for Bilge Pump 

I tried 5200 on my 1977 C 27 MKIII a few years ago and it peeled odd the 
fiberglass in the bilge. My new to me boat used a piece of 1" wide thin 
stainless which was bent 90 degrees at the bottom. The pump was screwed to that 
and a small hole or two were drilled high up where it could be screwed with 
short screws to the side of the bilge, or alternatively to something else. 
Essentially, a bracket. Seems to work well, and allows for pulling the pump 
easily. 

Kindest Regards, 

Bruce 
847.404.5092 

Please forgive any typos as this was sent from my iPhone. 

On Apr 12, 2017, at 2:06 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 




Randy, 

Can you glue a small piece of teak to the bilge floor with 5200 and screw the 
strainer to that? 

Dennis C. 

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:19 PM, RANDY via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 



Listers- 

Rule bilge pumps snap into plastic strainers, which Rule's installation 
instructions say to be screw in to the bilge to keep the pump in place. I don't 
think I want to go drilling screw holes into the bottom of my bilge - how have 
you all dealt with this issue? I'm thinking of using an adhesive sealant (e.g. 
BoatLife's Life Seal) to adhere the strainer to the bottom of the bilge. 
Thoughts? 

Thanks, 
Randy 

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Re: Stus-List Adhesive Sealant for Bilge Pump

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Well, I thought about that, but didn't like it for two reasons. First, the wood 
would eventually rot. Second, it raises the pump by some amount. I hadn't 
considered velcro - that could be a winner if its adhesive would stick when 
wet. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Dennis C. via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "CnClist" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Dennis" <capt...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 1:06:17 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Adhesive Sealant for Bilge Pump 

Randy, 

Can you glue a small piece of teak to the bilge floor with 5200 and screw the 
strainer to that? 

Dennis C. 

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:19 PM, RANDY via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 



Listers- 

Rule bilge pumps snap into plastic strainers, which Rule's installation 
instructions say to be screw in to the bilge to keep the pump in place. I don't 
think I want to go drilling screw holes into the bottom of my bilge - how have 
you all dealt with this issue? I'm thinking of using an adhesive sealant (e.g. 
BoatLife's Life Seal) to adhere the strainer to the bottom of the bilge. 
Thoughts? 

Thanks, 
Randy 

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Stus-List Adhesive Sealant for Bilge Pump

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Listers- 

Rule bilge pumps snap into plastic strainers, which Rule's installation 
instructions say to be screw in to the bilge to keep the pump in place. I don't 
think I want to go drilling screw holes into the bottom of my bilge - how have 
you all dealt with this issue? I'm thinking of using an adhesive sealant (e.g. 
BoatLife's Life Seal) to adhere the strainer to the bottom of the bilge. 
Thoughts? 

Thanks, 
Randy 
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Re: Stus-List Barient 22ST - now Documentation

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I just last night followed the advice in the BoatUS press release, and filed a 
complaint with the USPS Inspector General, even though it's been two months 
since I got suckered. Made sense, since this fraud started with a piece of 
mail. I'd previously filed complaints with the BBB, Department of Commerce, and 
USCG NVDC, but don't think those had much impact. I'm still pissed that there 
are assholes out there in the world doing this kind of shit, while owning fancy 
cars and claiming to be Christian according to their Facebook profiles. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Matthew L. Wolford"  
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 7:01:56 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Barient 22ST - now Documentation 

I sent a copy of my letter to the FBI about a month ago. Haven’t heard 
anything, but I can’t imagine that this is a priority. 
From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 9:19 PM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Rick Brass 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Barient 22ST - now Documentation 


I got my renewal letter from the USCG yesterday. And got a letter from some 
documentation renewal site about 10 days ago. 



And today I saw a press release from Boat/US about documentation fraud. They 
are apparently getting a lot of complaints from members about the various 
documentation renewal companies, and the release indicates that some of the 
examples of letters and websites that they have been provided have no 
disclaimer to indicate they are not affiliated with USCG and that some of the 
letters and sites are virtually identical to the real USCG notification. 



Boat/US is telling boaters to contact the Boat/US fraud division, the Attorney 
General in your home state, and the Postal Inspector at your local Post Office. 



Rick Brass 

Washington, NC 








From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bill Coleman 
via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 3:33 PM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Bill Coleman  
Subject: Re: Stus-List Barient 22ST 




On another note, I am glad some people here mentioned the Scammers trying to 
fool us into renewing USCG Documentation for $75, I got one and darn near fell 
for it till I saw the $75, which jogged my memory and I threw it out. 



Bill Coleman 

C 39 Erie, PA 





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All Contributions are greatly appreciated! 

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Stus-List USCG NVDC Impersonators

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thanks Rick. Here's that press release: 
http://www.boatus.com/pressroom/release.asp?id=1280#.WOhYcMcnuq0 

The guy who runs the company that scammed me (US Vessel Documentation, 
www.uscgdocumentation.us ) says on his Facebook page "Jesus is my lord" ( 
https://www.facebook.com/captainjohnsoria ). He's certainly not acting very 
Christian in this "business" of his. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Rick Brass via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Rick Brass"  
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2017 7:19:58 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Barient 22ST - now Documentation 



I got my renewal letter from the USCG yesterday. And got a letter from some 
documentation renewal site about 10 days ago. 



And today I saw a press release from Boat/US about documentation fraud. They 
are apparently getting a lot of complaints from members about the various 
documentation renewal companies, and the release indicates that some of the 
examples of letters and websites that they have been provided have no 
disclaimer to indicate they are not affiliated with USCG and that some of the 
letters and sites are virtually identical to the real USCG notification. 



Boat/US is telling boaters to contact the Boat/US fraud division, the Attorney 
General in your home state, and the Postal Inspector at your local Post Office. 



Rick Brass 

Washington, NC 








From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bill Coleman 
via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 3:33 PM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Bill Coleman  
Subject: Re: Stus-List Barient 22ST 




On another note, I am glad some people here mentioned the Scammers trying to 
fool us into renewing USCG Documentation for $75, I got one and darn near fell 
for it till I saw the $75, which jogged my memory and I threw it out. 



Bill Coleman 

C 39 Erie, PA 



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Re: Stus-List Second bilge pump

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Hi Tom, and welcome. Nice choice of boat :) 

There was a thread on this subject last month. Check out 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2017-March/091421.html 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "T power via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "T power"  
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2017 10:34:44 AM 
Subject: Stus-List Second bilge pump 



Hello everyone, 

I own a 1973 C 30 MKI which I'm looking for some advise. I currently have one 
bilge pump, I would like to install a second pump, looking for advice on size 
to install. 

Thanks, 

Tom 


Sent from Outlook 

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Re: Stus-List genoa cars and tracks - C 30 MK1 1979

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I've only got short (~2') tracks between the rails and the coamings, with their 
forward ends at the aft lifeline gate stanchion / forward primary winch. I use 
them with the cars all the way forward for my #2 genoa (150%), and with the 
cars all the way aft for my #1 genoa (165%). I use snatch blocks on the rails 
for smaller headsails. With my #3 genoa (130%) I position the blocks just 
forward of the forward lifeline gate brace. To use my working jib I'd position 
the blocks farther forward and would probably wish they were more inboard, but 
to be honest I hardly ever sail with a headsail smaller than the #3 genoa. This 
system could probably use some fine tuning, but it was good enough for me last 
year, and I won races when the wind was up. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Ronald B. Frerker"  
Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 11:27:53 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List genoa cars and tracks - C 30 MK1 1979 

I have the shoal draft model and have found that I'm better off not trying to 
point too high. As a result, the genoa track between the rail and the coming 
going up a couple feet forward of the bulkhead works well. However, sheeting to 
the toe rail works well also. 
For the smaller jib, I always use the rail. Pointing too high just seems a bad 
tradeoff with the shoal draft keel. 
Ron 
Wild Cheri 
C 30-1 
STL 




From: Steven Tattrie via CnC-List  
To: cnc-list  
Cc: Steven Tattrie  
Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 9:35 AM 
Subject: Stus-List genoa cars and tracks - C 30 MK1 1979 

Hi everyone, 

I am investigating putting genoa tracks and cars on my C MK1 1979. I have a 
110 and 150 head sail. 

Can folks racing 30's comment on what is the best configuration of tracks on a 
30. Will one long track work verses separate tracks for different sails? and 
where on the deck would they be installed? would the 110 be sheeted inside the 
shrouds? when they are best used? 

I have been searching photos on the internet and found at least half a dozen 
different configurations. So I don't think will be an easy decision on where to 
locate. 

you comments will be appreciated 

Steve 


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Re: Stus-List Bad Race Start Last Night

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Watching the "full version" first minute or two, looks like the main's luff was 
separated from the mast, and the crew was busy gathering up the main and trying 
to re-feed its luff. He might have been able to run downwind on starboard tack 
under jib alone (don't know where that would have led), but then he gybed to 
port and couldn't make enough way to avoid the pier or not get tripped. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Dennis C. via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "CnClist" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Dennis" <capt...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 12:44:21 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Bad Race Start Last Night 

Here's a nice video of it. 

https://youtu.be/Isufp-6fudo 

They looked a bit casual right before the wave. 

Dennis C. 

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 12:55 PM, RANDY via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 



https://news.google.com/search?q=redondo+beach+sailboat+crash 

Looks like a Capri 18. 

Done right: 
1. All crew wearing PFDs. 
2. Capsized close to beach, easing rescue. 

Mistakes? 
1. Only had the jib up? Hard to head up under jib alone. 
2. No auxiliary power? 

Cheers, 
Randy 
(from SoCal, where it is windy this weekend) 

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Stus-List Bad Race Start Last Night

[RANDY via CnC-List]

https://news.google.com/search?q=redondo+beach+sailboat+crash 

Looks like a Capri 18. 

Done right: 
1. All crew wearing PFDs. 
2. Capsized close to beach, easing rescue. 

Mistakes? 
1. Only had the jib up? Hard to head up under jib alone. 
2. No auxiliary power? 

Cheers, 
Randy 
(from SoCal, where it is windy this weekend) 
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Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thanks Matt. I see your point w.r.t. the Spartite - you've got to get the rig 
tuned before fixing everything in place. I'm using a mast boot and the NGA-18 
wedges from Rig-Rite ( http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/SparParts/Mast_wedges.php 
), so I have more flexibility. But I still have to get the tuning right before 
setting the wedges in, and it seems impossible to move the mast butt after it's 
stepped. This year I'll center it in the box and block it in place, then put 
the wedges in after tuning. 

My mast step support rebuild project is going well but slowly. I put a few more 
pictures up at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTSzRLbFo0NDl6U1E , 
showing the bilge after sanding and painting with neat epoxy, and showing the 
new GPO-3 supports. I discovered today that I need to go through another 
iteration of fitting before I can epoxy them in. That's ok, I can be patient. 
The new forward support is within a millimeter of the original's elevation both 
port & starboard. But I couldn't twist the new aft support in - I need to trim 
its "feet" more, to clear those straps of fiber suspending the keel, and then I 
can assess its fit prior to bonding it in. 

Have to take a break from all this for a week or so due to real life and the 
day job - sigh. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Matthew L. Wolford"  
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2017 8:39:18 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance 

Randy: 
The drawing for my boat does not show perfectly plumb – that was the point. The 
drawing showed a slight rake. It would be easier in a drawing to draw a mast 
perpendicular to the side view, but the drawing for the 42 shows a slight rake. 
We surmised that C must have had a reason for expending the extraordinary 
effort of showing a slight rake on a drawing. By doing a little math, we were 
able to figure out from the drawing what that rake is, which I duplicated in 
the field. I’m sure it’s not perfect, but I think we got close. 
The reason it was so important to get it right with the Spartite plug is that 
once you make one, the mast is pretty much staying there. With wooden blocks at 
the partners, you can move things around to make adjustments, including 
adjusting the rake for various conditions if you want. With a Spartite plug, 
once it’s done it’s done. I also made Spartite chocks in the mast step box, so 
nothing moves from the deck down. When I’m going through 8-10 footers on Lake 
Erie, I like it that way. 
It’s Matt by the way. Hope your project is going well. 
MLW 

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Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Congrats Charles on your acquisition of Destrier, and welcome to the list. 

I offer you the opportunity to learn from my mistakes on the mast step project 
and otherwise :) 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Cleverboy via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Cleverboy"  
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2017 3:39:07 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance 



@ Gary and Randy, I just got Destrier, a 30-1 last year and pulled the mast 
over the winter. I am also rebuilding the mast step support. I have found 
exactly the same conditions as everyone has reported. As bad as it was, it 
lasted 43 years. Destrier was raced for many years but I am not really a racer. 
I love the boat. Absolutely rock solid. 




Charles Ferrari 

Destrier 

73 C 30-1 

City Island, NY 
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Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thanks Gary. You might want to just bite the bullet and do the replacement job 
I'm in the middle of. If I can do it, you can do it. I'll do a full write-up 
somewhere when I'm done. I've taken a ton of pictures. Now signing off to go 
epoxy my new GPO-3 supports into Grenadine's bilge, after a lot of very dusty 
jigsaw-cutting and belt sander refining last night and this morning. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Gary Nylander via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Gary Nylander"  
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2017 12:46:53 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance 



Randy and Lee…. 



The tree stump that C designed for the 30-1 is super stiff. Pre bend is 
pretty much fiction. I have a 4 to 1 backstay adjuster on my split backstay and 
the only thing it does when I haul on it as hard as possible is stiffen the 
forestay. Randy, you should go with your plan and center the mast and then see 
how the boat sails, then adjust the foot accordingly. 



By the way, start by making sure the mast is centered in the boat from side to 
side. After being confused by the measurements and tensions on mine, I 
discovered the chainplates were one inch off, the starboard one being one inch 
closer to the rail than the port. Verified by measuring the inside of the boat 
as well. A few new holes in the mounting and a longer slot in the deck cured a 
number of issues. 



I have three mast supports which were all soggy, the aft two much more than the 
forward one. They were made up of two pieces of ¾ plywood screwed together and 
fiberglassed, but the glass doesn’t cover the bottom, where the water just 
soaks up into the wood. A lot of G-Flex drilled down into the supports and some 
supporting boards has helped, but I am starting to think about a gallon of 
Epoxy down there. 



Gary 

#593 
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Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thanks Lee, you haven't ruined my day at all. I do race my 30-1 and have a 
blast doing it. Her mast butt does appear to have some rocker. But 
unfortunately I don't have any information about how much (if any) pre-bend her 
main requires. I'd think pre-bend would be easier to achieve on a fractional 
rig than a masthead rig, but I could see how you might be able to get some on a 
masthead rig by a combination of mast butt positioning and stay tension. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Lee via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Lee" <lchris11...@aol.com> 
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 11:50:08 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance 

Randy,sorry to complicate your project but there are a couple more 
considerations depending on just how involved and precise you want to be, If 
you intend to race your 30-1 {they are excellent for such} you will want to 
consider initial mast bend. If so the shape of the mast butt can ease the 
process by putting some rocker on the butt so as to control where mast 
compression puts pressure, fore or aft , or by shimming to achieve the same 
effect You can check the butt with a woodworking square.Your sailmaker can 
assist to determine how much prebend to use.Hope I didn't ruin your day. 
Lee c 35-3 cb 
Blue Point NY 
-Original Message- 
From: RANDY via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: cnc-list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: RANDY <randy.staff...@comcast.net> 
Sent: Sat, Mar 25, 2017 1:27 pm 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance 

Thank you all for the excellent responses. 

Matthew, figuring out what C's intentions were, for aft mast step elevation, 
is what I'm trying to do. I assume they intended for the mast to perfectly 
plumb when the boat is sitting on her designed waterline in perfectly calm 
water and calm air. Then rig tuners would set the rake from there. Of course, 
those aren't the conditions I'm working in, so it's all guesswork (levels are 
useless with the boat on the trailer). 

Michael, interesting point about heel at the foot of the mast. I'll check that 
out today. I assumed the foot of my mast is flat, and makes contact all the way 
around the mast box. I agree the side-to-side level is critical - from rig 
tuning last year, I believe Grenadine's is off (the aft end of the mast block 
lists to port, requiring more halyard tension to touch the starboard rail than 
the port rail, and I couldn't correct that via upper shroud tension without 
bowing the mast). That should get corrected by the new aft support, assuming I 
cut it and install it correctly. 

Rick thanks for the reminder about the owner's manual rig tuning instructions 
cautioning against forward rake. I follow those instructions to the letter for 
rig tuning, and you're exactly right, I set 8" of rake on Grenadine. Regarding 
my 30-kt experience, it was on June 22nd last year - see archived wind graph at 
http://wx.iwindsurf.com/map#39.548,-105.08,14,1,!11170,7 . We had 
light-to-decent wind for our race at 6:30, so I was flying all that sail. Then 
after the race the wind really piped up and I wanted to learn how Grenadine 
would behave under that press of canvas. At the moment of that 30-kt (true) 
gust just after 8:00, I was on starboard tack close reach, trimmed for that 
point of sail, going 7.6 knots according to GPS (with fixed 2-blade prop even), 
with five people on the rail, and my genoa tore before I got a rail in the 
water. That's how stiff a 30-1 is. Of course I had a hell of a lot of weather 
helm in those conditions, and I was within about an inch or another degree of 
heel of burying the rail. I've yet to learn what it takes to bury a rail on a 
30-1. If Grenadine had had a folding prop at the time, I believe she could have 
touched 8 knots. Will find out this year :) 

Given all these great responses, I think I'll split the difference and cut the 
aft support to the elevation indicated by the dashed line in 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTU3hRNmZoMUU1MFk . Thanks again 
everyone. 

Cheers, 
Randy 


From: "Rick Brass via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Rick Brass" < rickbr...@earthlink.net > 
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 9:27:38 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance 

Randy; 
I could have sworn that I have seen a table that lists the initial mast rake 
for various C models built in the 70’s, but I’m not able to find it. 
The rig tuning information on the Photo Album, and the information in the 
owner’s manuals that came with my 25 mk1 and my 38 mk2 all show the same 
information about setting up the mast rake: 
On a 24, the target for initial rake is 6” measured at the gooseneck. For the 
38, the target is 10”. Looking up the I dimensions and doing a 

Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thanks Josh, I appreciate the point. The fact is that Grenadine's rig is 
already changed from the original intended geometry because of the C 
construction flaw of using plywood mast step supports. The 44-year-old supports 
that came out of Grenadine's bilge are incredibly fragile - delaminating, 
splintering, etc. It's a wonder they held the mast up. It appears that 
deterioration of the aft support depressed the aft end of the mast step by 1/4" 
to 1/2", and tilted the mast to port enough to be noticeable during 
side-to-side rig tuning. If anything my efforts will hopefully restore the 
originally-intended geometry. The elevation of the forward support won't change 
- it was in better shape than the aft support. The elevation of the aft support 
will be about 1/4" higher than current, which I believe should restore it to 
the original elevation as best I can guess. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Josh Muckley via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "C List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Josh Muckley" <muckl...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 12:29:31 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance 

Be very careful before changing anything with the original geometry. There are 
a lot of factors involved. The height of the maststep will affect the height at 
the partners (deck) and every stay, not just the headstay. There are deck ties 
which hold the mast to the deck, they will be good guides as to the appropriate 
height of the step. The mast typically pivots at the partners so moving the 
foot makes a big change to the head and shrouds. Our rigs are not typically 
swept but these factors are even more exasperated on swept spreader rigs. 

Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
1989 C 37+ 
Solomons, MD 

On Mar 25, 2017 3:12 AM, "RANDY via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 



Listers- 

Seeking your input here. I'm in the middle of the mast step rebuild project a 
la http://cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/maststep/maststep.htm . Lots of 
pictures of the project at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTSzRLbFo0NDl6U1E . 

I'll be cutting new supports from laminated GPO-3 slabs Saturday night or 
Sunday morning. Before installing the new supports, I have to decide on the 
elevation of the aft support. Of course I took careful elevation measurements 
from the cabin sole before removing the original supports. But the question is, 
what was the original shape of the top of the aft support? 

I believe the middle of Grenadine's aft support, under the mast step block, was 
compressed down from its original elevation due to a combination of weakness in 
the support and standing rigging tension (especially backstay). Have a look at 
the pictures and you can clearly see what I mean, e.g. 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTLXZuXzd1T1pkR28 . This 
compression has the effect of pitching the mast step aft, thereby moving the 
masthead aft, thereby increasing weather helm (which I've definitely noticed 
under enough wind and sail - it was strong under full main and #2 genoa in 30 
kts, not surprisingly). 

However I also believe that the original elevation of the aft support may have 
been carefully tuned for helm balance, prior to compression below the mast step 
block due to weak wood and standing rigging tension. 

The reason this elevation question matters so much is because, using 
trigonometry, I can calculate the distance by which different elevations of the 
aft support will move the masthead forward or aft, which in turn will affect 
helm balance. Each quarter inch of aft support elevation difference could move 
the masthead about three inches I believe. 

The last picture ( 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTU3hRNmZoMUU1MFk ) in the Google 
Drive folder linked above shows the templates from which I'll cut the new 
supports, traced from the original supports removed from Grenadine's bilge. I 
hypothesize that the dashed line I drew at the top of the aft support template 
may have been the aft support's original elevation. 

I'm halfways tempted to split the difference and cut the new aft support to 
have that elevation. Of course, I could be full of crap, because I tune the 
mast rake using the stays after all, which probably influences helm balance 
more than mast step pitch. And of course I can control the sail selection and 
sail trim, which probably influence helm balance more than mast step pitch. 
However, for a given sail selection close-hauled, with neither the backstay nor 
forestay over-tensioned, the mast step pitch would certainly influence the 
masthead position and therefore the combined center of effort of the sail plan. 

What say ye? Does anyone out there know if the top of the original aft mast 
step support on a 30-1 was flat all the way across, or did it come from the 
factory with a little elevation drop to tune helm b

Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thanks Michael I will use your technique when tuning my rig side-to-side this 
spring. 

Regarding the mast butt, Grenadine's does appear able to rock fore-and-aft in 
the mast box - I checked that out today. Couldn't tell exactly how; the mast 
bottom seems flat. But it definitely rocks in the box. Interesting idea to move 
the butt fore-and-aft to adjust helm balance. Seems easier to do that with rake 
via backstay & forestay tension. Last year I wasn't paying close enough 
attention when we stepped the mast, and the butt wasn't centered fore-and-aft. 
This year I plan to center it at stepping time, and tune from there. I'm not 
interested in the exciting effects of lee helm :) 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Brown via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Michael Brown"  
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 12:27:45 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance 

> requiring more halyard tension to touch the starboard rail than the port rail 

When I am centering the mast side to side I use the main halyard, a stiff 
bungee cord 
and a tape measure. On either side to start with I hook the bungee to the 
halyard shackle 
and through the toe rail, then tighten the halyard until I get significant 
force on the bungee. 

I measure from the top of the toe rail to a point on the halyard shackle, then 
move the 
set to the other side and measure again. Half of the difference is how far I 
have to adjust 
to, and the force of the bungee is more consistent then me trying to guess how 
hard to pull. 

You can get pretty close without having to switch sides by calculating the 
target distance. 
The boat may shift a bit, the mast step compress etc so a switch at the end is 
required. 


The mast rake advice in the C manual is a good starting point. You do want to 
confirm 
it is right by sailing close hauled in 10 - 12 kts TWS and getting slight 
weather helm. How 
much is a preference but if you are fighting the wheel it is slowing the boat 
down. I have 
an adjustable forestay ( normal turnbuckle ) so I can dial it in without having 
to move the 
mast butt. I think people leave a small amount or weather helm so that if you 
do get 
surprised by a gust it may round you up a bit and help depower. Uncontrolled 
lee helm 
will force you down and make it harder to steer, along with other exciting 
effects. 


I see from your posting that the aft girder has significant "wings" which will 
extend side 
to side in the boat. When I rebuilt Windburn's mast step I had similar smaller 
ones but 
was not able to fit the piece in place with them. If the girder was only 1/4" 
thick like a 
cardboard template it would go in but the thicker part did not. 

Despite having snow this morning I know spring is coming ... 

Michael Brown 
Windburn 
C 30-1 


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Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance

[RANDY via CnC-List]

up the mast step so the mast was vertical – or nearly so -for an initial 
position and then adjust the rake with fore and aft stays per the C 
instructions. 



Rick Brass 

Imzadi C 38 mk 2 

la Belle Aurore C 25 mk1 

Washington, NC 










From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 3:12 AM 
To: cnc-list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: RANDY <randy.staff...@comcast.net> 
Subject: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance 





Listers- 





Seeking your input here. I'm in the middle of the mast step rebuild project a 
la http://cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/maststep/maststep.htm . Lots of 
pictures of the project at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTSzRLbFo0NDl6U1E . 





I'll be cutting new supports from laminated GPO-3 slabs Saturday night or 
Sunday morning. Before installing the new supports, I have to decide on the 
elevation of the aft support. Of course I took careful elevation measurements 
from the cabin sole before removing the original supports. But the question is, 
what was the original shape of the top of the aft support? 





I believe the middle of Grenadine's aft support, under the mast step block, was 
compressed down from its original elevation due to a combination of weakness in 
the support and standing rigging tension (especially backstay). Have a look at 
the pictures and you can clearly see what I mean, e.g. 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTLXZuXzd1T1pkR28. This compression 
has the effect of pitching the mast step aft, thereby moving the masthead aft, 
thereby increasing weather helm (which I've definitely noticed under enough 
wind and sail - it was strong under full main and #2 genoa in 30 kts, not 
surprisingly). 





However I also believe that the original elevation of the aft support may have 
been carefully tuned for helm balance, prior to compression below the mast step 
block due to weak wood and standing rigging tension. 





The reason this elevation question matters so much is because, using 
trigonometry, I can calculate the distance by which different elevations of the 
aft support will move the masthead forward or aft, which in turn will affect 
helm balance. Each quarter inch of aft support elevation difference could move 
the masthead about three inches I believe. 





The last picture 
(https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTU3hRNmZoMUU1MFk) in the Google 
Drive folder linked above shows the templates from which I'll cut the new 
supports, traced from the original supports removed from Grenadine's bilge. I 
hypothesize that the dashed line I drew at the top of the aft support template 
may have been the aft support's original elevation. 





I'm halfways tempted to split the difference and cut the new aft support to 
have that elevation. Of course, I could be full of crap, because I tune the 
mast rake using the stays after all, which probably influences helm balance 
more than mast step pitch. And of course I can control the sail selection and 
sail trim, which probably influence helm balance more than mast step pitch. 
However, for a given sail selection close-hauled, with neither the backstay nor 
forestay over-tensioned, the mast step pitch would certainly influence the 
masthead position and therefore the combined center of effort of the sail plan. 





What say ye? Does anyone out there know if the top of the original aft mast 
step support on a 30-1 was flat all the way across, or did it come from the 
factory with a little elevation drop to tune helm balance? I'll be committing 
an assumption about that to a GPO-3 slab with my jigsaw in the next day or two. 





Thanks in advance, 


Randy Stafford 


S/V Grenadine 


C 30-1 #7 


Ken Caryl, CO 

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Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Listers- 

Seeking your input here. I'm in the middle of the mast step rebuild project a 
la http://cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/maststep/maststep.htm . Lots of 
pictures of the project at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTSzRLbFo0NDl6U1E . 

I'll be cutting new supports from laminated GPO-3 slabs Saturday night or 
Sunday morning. Before installing the new supports, I have to decide on the 
elevation of the aft support. Of course I took careful elevation measurements 
from the cabin sole before removing the original supports. But the question is, 
what was the original shape of the top of the aft support? 

I believe the middle of Grenadine's aft support, under the mast step block, was 
compressed down from its original elevation due to a combination of weakness in 
the support and standing rigging tension (especially backstay). Have a look at 
the pictures and you can clearly see what I mean, e.g. 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTLXZuXzd1T1pkR28. This compression 
has the effect of pitching the mast step aft, thereby moving the masthead aft, 
thereby increasing weather helm (which I've definitely noticed under enough 
wind and sail - it was strong under full main and #2 genoa in 30 kts, not 
surprisingly). 

However I also believe that the original elevation of the aft support may have 
been carefully tuned for helm balance, prior to compression below the mast step 
block due to weak wood and standing rigging tension. 

The reason this elevation question matters so much is because, using 
trigonometry, I can calculate the distance by which different elevations of the 
aft support will move the masthead forward or aft, which in turn will affect 
helm balance. Each quarter inch of aft support elevation difference could move 
the masthead about three inches I believe. 

The last picture 
(https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTU3hRNmZoMUU1MFk) in the Google 
Drive folder linked above shows the templates from which I'll cut the new 
supports, traced from the original supports removed from Grenadine's bilge. I 
hypothesize that the dashed line I drew at the top of the aft support template 
may have been the aft support's original elevation. 

I'm halfways tempted to split the difference and cut the new aft support to 
have that elevation. Of course, I could be full of crap, because I tune the 
mast rake using the stays after all, which probably influences helm balance 
more than mast step pitch. And of course I can control the sail selection and 
sail trim, which probably influence helm balance more than mast step pitch. 
However, for a given sail selection close-hauled, with neither the backstay nor 
forestay over-tensioned, the mast step pitch would certainly influence the 
masthead position and therefore the combined center of effort of the sail plan. 

What say ye? Does anyone out there know if the top of the original aft mast 
step support on a 30-1 was flat all the way across, or did it come from the 
factory with a little elevation drop to tune helm balance? I'll be committing 
an assumption about that to a GPO-3 slab with my jigsaw in the next day or two. 

Thanks in advance, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
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Stus-List Removing Old Butyl Tape

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Listers- 

Any tips on solvents or techniques for removing old butyl tape used to bed deck 
hardware? 

Thanks, 
Randy 
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Re: Stus-List Automatic Bilge Pump? Recommendations?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

d the batteries deplete (in which case 
the boat will sink). When the boat is unattended, I'll leave the pumps in 
automatic mode and ensure they're wired to have power even when everything else 
is switched off. Grenadine is wired for shore power and has a 110V battery 
charger so, in theory, if she's plugged in to shore power and suffers a 
hull-flooding event, her bilge pumps could run forever. If she's not plugged in 
to shore power and suffers a hull-flooding event, I'll have to trust that 
someone notices water streaming out of the discharge port and calls me before 
her batteries deplete (she has a solar charging system too). If I'm *really* 
worried about that last case, I could install a bilge alarm and annoy the whole 
marina to save my boat. 

So, that's how it breaks down for me. This whole matter has dominated my 
thoughts for about 24 hours now. When I'm done, I'll have met David Pascoe's 
recommendations: three pumps total, and redundant electric pumps, with an 
overall capacity of 4120 GPH (the Whale Gusher 10 has a capacity of 1020 GPH at 
70 strokes per minute). 

Incidentally I'm in the middle of the mast step rebuild project right now, a la 
http://cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/maststep/maststep.htm . My rig has been 
down and off the boat all winter so I could do that project and a chainplate 
resealing project. That's why I'm redoing all the bilge plumbing now too, and 
torque-ing the keel bolts. I want to get all those bilge-related projects done, 
so I can leave the rig up in future offseasons, and have confidence that the 
pump under the mast step is new and reliable :) Pictures of these projects at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTaUlpUkZJWGt5RVk . 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Gary Nylander via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Gary Nylander" <gnylan...@atlanticbb.net> 
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 9:05:11 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Automatic Bilge Pump? Recommendations? 



As I share the same design (30-1) with you and have that really deep sump right 
under the mast, I have agonized over this issue a bunch. First, you have to get 
all the water out or your sump will always be wet and your mast step will 
degrade. Second, if you come up with a good way to install a vented loop, let 
me know. I have a check valve in the line from the Rule pump which is in the 
bottom of the sump. I know the limitations, so I have my pump on a manual 
switch, so it won’t drain the battery. It is marginal. 



I am going to add a diaphragm pump to the system and have the intake tube in 
the sump and the pump under the dinette seat. The vented loop and discharge - 
???. If I run it back to the stern or aft quarter like my Whale hand pump and 
Rule, then a bunch of water will come back to the pump when it cycles off. I am 
trying to figure out how to run the discharge into the head area above the 
holding tank, put a vented loop right under the deck and then exhaust through 
the side, but that may allow water intrusion when heeled over. Still measuring. 
This probably won’t happen until next winter – many other projects this time 
plus the mast is still up and I may pull it next year. 



Gary 

#593 




From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 1:41 AM 
To: cnc-list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: RANDY <randy.staff...@comcast.net> 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Automatic Bilge Pump? Recommendations? 





Revisiting this thread, as I came across a few interesting articles today: 


* http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bilge_pumps.htm 


* http://www.docksidereports.com/bilge_water_blues.htm 


* 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/93937-bilge-pump-non-return-valve.html
 





I found those googling about bilge pumps and check valves, as I'm in the middle 
of overhauling Grenadines' bilge pumping system which currently has check 
valves in it. 





Then it occurred to me: maybe I ought to think about the design principles for 
my bilge pumping system :) Instead of just refreshing what's there with new 
components implementing the same design. The articles were good for provoking 
thought about that. I came to some conclusions that seem right for my 
situation. 





Cheers, 


Randy 



- Original Message -



From: "David via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
To: "cnc-list" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: "David" < davidrisc...@msn.com > 
Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2017 3:46:40 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Automatic Bilge Pump? Recommendations? 





If you have a catastrophic failure good batteries and luck (attentive 
neighbors?) will save her on the mooring. If you have bilge pump counter on an 
automatic telling you the pattern of pumps per time period left unattended,

Re: Stus-List Sad craigslisted C

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Exhibit A, for the bilge pump thread :) 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Bernard Bauman via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Bernard Bauman" <2bbau...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 8:40:03 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Sad craigslisted C 

An opportunity to buy a great-brand sailboat at a negative price! 



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab® S 


 Original message  
From: Dreuge via CnC-List  
Date: 3/22/17 4:34 PM (GMT-05:00) 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Dreuge  
Subject: Stus-List Sad craigslisted C 

I just came across a real sad C 25 listed on Craigslist 

https://panamacity.craigslist.org/boa/6032234808.html 



- 
Paul E. 
1981 C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose 
Ft Walton, FL 

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/ 


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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
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All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Automatic Bilge Pump? Recommendations?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Revisiting this thread, as I came across a few interesting articles today: 
* http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bilge_pumps.htm 
* http://www.docksidereports.com/bilge_water_blues.htm 
* 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/93937-bilge-pump-non-return-valve.html
 

I found those googling about bilge pumps and check valves, as I'm in the middle 
of overhauling Grenadines' bilge pumping system which currently has check 
valves in it. 

Then it occurred to me: maybe I ought to think about the design principles for 
my bilge pumping system :) Instead of just refreshing what's there with new 
components implementing the same design. The articles were good for provoking 
thought about that. I came to some conclusions that seem right for my 
situation. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "David via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "David"  
Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2017 3:46:40 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Automatic Bilge Pump? Recommendations? 



If you have a catastrophic failure good batteries and luck (attentive 
neighbors?) will save her on the mooring. If you have bilge pump counter on an 
automatic telling you the pattern of pumps per time period left unattended, you 
may see a problem before it gets out of hand. 




And hardwired to battery with fuse... 





Cheap insurance. 



David F. Risch 
(401) 419-4650 (cell) 



From: CnC-List  on behalf of David Knecht via 
CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2017 3:45 PM 
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Automatic Bilge Pump? Recommendations? 
I am curious about the logic of this. My boat is on a mooring unattended for 
days at a time. I have a manual bilge pump that I turn on if necessary. If I am 
not on the boat and a serious leak develops, the pump would run until the 
battery is dead and then the boat would sink. So under what circumstances would 
you expect an automatic bilge pump to save the boat? Perhaps a slow leak? Also, 
I normally turn off all the boat power when I leave. If you have an automatic 
switch, do you have the switch wired directly to the battery, or do you leave 
you electrical system on when you are not on the boat? Dave 

Aries 
1990 C 34+ 
New London, CT 




On Mar 8, 2017, at 3:31 PM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 

Remarkably, my boat was not equipped with an automatic bilge pump, but instead 
has an external pump located near the nav station operated by a circuit breaker 
switch. I recently purchased a Water Witch for the bilge and a three-way switch 
for for the circuit breaker panel. 



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Stus-List Prop Pullers

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Listers- 

What's your favorite prop puller? Or at least, which one / what kind would you 
recommend to pull a fixed two-blade 12" prop off a 7/8" SAE tapered shaft with 
5/8" x 11 UNC thread? 

Thanks, 
Randy 
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Re: Stus-List Yacht club weather station

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Nice work Dennis! Very cool. And that's a good-looking yacht club building. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Dennis C. via CnC-List"  
To: "CnClist"  
Cc: "Dennis"  
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 5:48:18 PM 
Subject: Stus-List Yacht club weather station 

I got a crazy bug a few months ago to install a weather station at my yacht 
club, Pontchartrain Yacht Club on the north shore of Lake Pontchartrain at 
Mandeville, LA. There were no wind stations anywhere close to my club. There 
are some wind data/forecasts available through premium wind services or 
personal weather stations further inland. 

I'm sure some of you might have already done this but for those who haven't 
it's really easy to install a weather station, hook it to your club's WiFi and 
then link it to Weather Underground's wundermap.com . Once you go live on 
wundermap, WU also provides a webpage where you select your weather station and 
it builds the HTML code that you can copy and paste into your club's website. 
Real time wind data will be available on the website. 

I tagged a few of the club racers for some $$$ and bought this station: 

http://www.ambientweather.com/amws1000wifi.html 

This weekend we installed it on the club flagpole which stands fairly 
unobstructed in front of our club on the lakefront. Pics of me and a fellow 
member working on the install are here: https://www.facebook.com/PontYC/ (I'm 
the idiot without the hat!) 

The station communicates via RF to a console which we installed in our bar and 
connected to the club WiFi. The race committee can easily look at it for 
skippers meetings. Connecting it to the club WiFi and to wundermap.com was easy 
and straightforward. 

To see our station go here: 

https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=KLAMANDE128#history
 

Scroll down to the neat graphs! 

Dennis C. 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
Mandeville, LA 

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Re: Stus-List putting teek hand rails back together - tips

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Hi Steve, 

I'll be fastening Grenadine's new exterior handrails in a couple weeks. She's a 
30-1, hull #7, built September 1972. I'm pretty sure her old handrails were 
original, and they were fastened with screws through the cabin top from the 
inside. No bungs on the exterior handrails. I drilled out the bungs from the 
interior handrails, which covered a long screw fastening both the interior and 
exterior handrails. Then, under each interior handrail base, there were two 
more shorter screws fastening the exterior handrails. I've got pictures of the 
project at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTc093OExfMGRBX1E . 

I know that doesn't address your specific question. But maybe you could 
consider changing fasteners. Instead of using bolts and nuts, maybe you could 
switch to using just screws from the inside? You could fill and bung the holes 
in the exterior handrails as necessary. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Steven Tattrie via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Steven Tattrie"  
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 10:45:40 AM 
Subject: Stus-List putting teek hand rails back together - tips 

Hello all, 

I removed teak hand rails from my C MK1 1979 last fall. There is an inside 
and outside rail that are both fastened together by the same bolt and nut 
(inside nut). Both ends are recessed into the rail with teak plug to fill the 
hole. 

I haven't tried to install them back yet however, I am wondering how I can hold 
the nut on the inside so that it does not turn keeping in mind that it is 
recessed into the wood and a socket/ wrench will not hold it (fit in the hole). 

Any tips on this process!! 

Steve 



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Re: Stus-List Best source for Butyl Sealer?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I bought a 20' roll of INCOM butyl tape from West Marine for $25. The stuff is 
made in Ancaster, Ontario. 
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/incom--butyl-caulking-tape--P015730286?recordNum=8
 

Can't say I swear by it or any other brand yet; this will be my first time 
using it. I'm bedding Grenadine's new exterior handrails, and her refinished 
traveler bar, with it in the coming weeks. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Dreuge via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Dreuge"  
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 10:19:03 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Best source for Butyl Sealer? 



Sailrite also sells marine grade butyl tape made by Dehco at $10/roll. 

http://www.sailrite.com/Butyl-Tape-Bedding-Deck-Hardware-Sealant-Video-Demo 



- 
Paul E. 
1981 C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose 
Fort Walton, FL 

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/ 




On Mar 21, 2017, at 12:00 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote: 

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 08:14:47 -0400 
From: Bruce Whitmore < bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Stus-List Best source for Butyl Sealer? 
Message-ID: < bc0eb62c-4593-4f10-b585-db27f7f3c...@sbcglobal.net > 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 

Hello all, 

I am a big fan of butyl sealant tape on deck hardware as many of you have said 
in the past. Yet, there are many formulations, some of which work better than 
others for our applications. 

Which one do you swear by, and can you please post a link? 

Thanks!!! 

1994 C 37/40+ 
Astralis 

Bruce 
847.404.5092 

Please forgive any typos as this was sent from my iPhone. 





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Re: Stus-List What is this Fitting?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thanks Ken, very interesting. Does your friend still have the factory charcoal 
barbeque? I'd be interested to see a picture, or possibly even acquire one if 
anyone knows where I could get the original item. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Ken Heaton via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Ken Heaton" <kenhea...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2017 3:19:31 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List What is this Fitting? 

Post socket for a factory charcoal barbecue. Rectangular, porcelain coated 
steel. 

At least that is what it is on a friend's C 35 Mk.I 

Ken H. 

On 17 March 2017 at 01:23, RANDY via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 



This is on the short afterdeck of my 30-1, port side. It's not for an ensign 
staff; that fitting is more centerline on the afterdeck. You can see it's got a 
little keyhole. 

PS. Don't worry, I'll be shining up that brightwork soon :) 

Thanks, 
Randy 


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Stus-List What is this Fitting?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

This is on the short afterdeck of my 30-1, port side. It's not for an ensign 
staff; that fitting is more centerline on the afterdeck. You can see it's got a 
little keyhole. 

PS. Don't worry, I'll be shining up that brightwork soon :) 

Thanks, 
Randy 

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Re: Stus-List A greatful thank you

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Enjoy the rum Stu! And thanks for cncphotoalbum & cnc-list! 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Stu via CnC-List"  
To: "C Email List"  
Cc: "Stu"  
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 4:50:03 PM 
Subject: Stus-List A greatful thank you 

I cannot begin to say enough thank you’s to everyone who made a financial 
contribution to the Photo Album and this list. It certainly paid the bills and 
enough to buy a couple bottles of rum. 
Again, THANK YOU everyone. 
Stu 





This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. 
www.avg.com 

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Re: Stus-List Man Crosses Atlantic on a Paddle Board

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Awesome Bill! You and I and the other guy in your marina may have the only C 
in US Sailing's Area F. I'm up in Colorado with C 30 MK I hull #7. Pretty 
sure I've got the only C in all of Colorado. Bought her about a year ago and 
did many of those same new-owner updates. Now I'm into heavier projects like 
rebuilding mast step supports etc. Welcome! 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Bill Dakin"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "RANDY" , "Graham Young" 
 
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 2:40:49 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Man Crosses Atlantic on a Paddle Board 

Made me think of Eddie Aikau. 'Would Eddie Go...?" Maybe not across the 
Atlantic even for him. 

Back on topic.. I'm close to wrapping up a minor new-owner update and cleaning 
of our recently purchased 25MKII. All that is left is an Interlux sprayed on 
bootstripe, buff and wax of the smooth area of the topsides, running rig 
install, clean all the sails, lube the Edson steerage, and splash her. 
Hopefully the saildrive, #1 doesn't leak, #2 it runs, and #3 runs well. 

One of our headsails is a storm jib, a tiny little thing for sure. Another can 
be reefed, the others are 115 and 150. And two mains. 

Finally, in a marina of hundreds of sailboats, there is only one other C, 
then ours in two weeks. They are very rare here in Texas. 


Bill Dakin 
Fairview, Texas 


On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Graham Young via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 





You're welcome. I thought the same...or pretty crazy, or both. I couldn't 
decide. 

Just like a surfer ;) 



On Friday, March 10, 2017 3:22 PM, RANDY < randy.staff...@comcast.net > wrote: 


I've gotta say, that's pretty frickin' impressive. 







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Re: Stus-List Man Crosses Atlantic on a Paddle Board

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I've gotta say, that's pretty frickin' impressive. 

Thanks for sharing. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Graham Young via CnC-List"  
To: "C List"  
Cc: "Graham Young"  
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 7:09:44 AM 
Subject: Stus-List Man Crosses Atlantic on a Paddle Board 



World-first as man crosses Atlantic solo on paddle board 




World-first as man crosses Atlantic solo on paddle board 
South African watersport pro Chris Bertish has just nailed a world first: he's 
crossed the Atlantic solo, un... 



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Re: Stus-List Automatic Bilge Pump? Recommendations?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I'm replacing my bilge pump and plumbing right now. Just last night bought an 
1100gph automatic Rule pump to replace the same (age unknown) that came with 
the boat. Didn't do much research but was swayed by a 20%-off sale on Rule 
pumps ending yesterday at West Marine. My pump is wired to a switch by which I 
can manually turn it on, turn it off, or leave it in automatic mode. My deepest 
sump, where I want the pump, is under the mast step and unreachable for 
servicing without taking the rig down. So I want the peace of mind of knowing 
there's a new pump in there. Last year I rebuilt my manual diaphragm bilge 
pump, and this year I'm replacing its intake hose from that same lowest sump, 
because the hose has some duct-taped leaks where it passes under the Atomic 4. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Rick Rohwer via CnC-List"  
To: "Joel Aronson via CnC-List"  
Cc: "Rick Rohwer"  
Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2017 11:39:27 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Automatic Bilge Pump? Recommendations? 

Mine is also a Rule (I think the capacity is around 650gpm) with electronic 
switch, redundant with another of the same in the shallow sump under the steps. 
They are both automatic or on with switch at nav table. Everything ultimately 
drains into the deep sump on my boat as well using (just learned vocabulary, 
thanks Josh) limber holes! 
Cheers 
Rick 
Paikea 37+ 
Poulsbo, WA 

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 9:35 AM, tprice--- via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> wrote: 





I use a Water Witch solid state switch to redundant Rule 2000 and 500. 



https://waterwitchinc.com/ 



TP 




Timothy B. Price 

tpr...@ingamemedia.com 

917.755.6145 



AIM: timbprice, Yahoo: timothyprice_98, SKYPE: Timothy B Price, Twitter: 
@NYC10075 







From: Bruce Whitmore < bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > 
Reply-To: Bruce Whitmore < bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > 
Date: Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 9:56 AM 
To: C List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Subject: Stus-List Automatic Bilge Pump? Recommendations? 





Hello all, 





We have a deep, but small bilge just forward of the mast on our CYC 37/40+, and 
I need to replace the bilge pump. It had a Rule 1100 GPH automatic pump (rather 
than one that has a separate float switch). It seems like a pretty small area, 
and I would like to continue to use a pump with a relatively high output and a 
built-in float switch. 





I would prefer not to use the technology that turns on the pump to test for 
water, as there is very little water getting into this deep bilge, and I don't 
want to use power every few minutes for a test. I am also concerned that the 
Rule pumps have been getting pretty poor reviews lately. 





Anyone have a recommendation? 





Thanks! 





Bruce 


1994 C 37/40+, "Astralis" 


Madiera Beach, FL 


(847) 404-5092 (mobile) 


bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net 

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Re: Stus-List Exterior Teak Varnish Recommendation?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Because Dennis said so, in his post yesterday :) 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Patrick Davin via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list" , "andy stafford" 
 
Cc: "Patrick Davin"  
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 3:17:35 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Exterior Teak Varnish Recommendation? 

Just curious, why would you want to do 5 coats of Cetol followed by 3 coats of 
Cetol Gloss? 

The instructions on the can recommend 3 coats followed by 1 gloss, or 2 gloss 
if 1 gloss isn't satisfactory. But 8 coats is something I've only ever heard of 
for varnish, and the lower # of coats required with Cetol is one of its primary 
advantages. 

4 coats on handrails last year took me quite a while, so I can't imagine 
wanting to do 8! 

-Patrick 

On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 1:54 PM, < cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com > wrote: 



From: RANDY < randy.staff...@comcast.net > 
To: cnc-list < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 18:53:08 + (UTC) 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Exterior Teak Varnish Recommendation? 
Thank you all for the responses and recommendations. 

For better or worse I've decided to go with Sikkens Cetol Natural Teak followed 
by Sikkens Cetol Gloss; probably five coats of the former and three coats of 
the latter initially. Factors in my decision included recommendations from this 
list, expected look, reported durability, price (my second choice, Awlwood MA, 
is a comparatively expensive system), and effort to use properly. This season I 
will also clean up other exterior teak besides the new handrails, and treat it 
with the same Cetol treatment after cleaning. 






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Re: Stus-List Exterior Teak Varnish Recommendation?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thank you all for the responses and recommendations. 

For better or worse I've decided to go with Sikkens Cetol Natural Teak followed 
by Sikkens Cetol Gloss; probably five coats of the former and three coats of 
the latter initially. Factors in my decision included recommendations from this 
list, expected look, reported durability, price (my second choice, Awlwood MA, 
is a comparatively expensive system), and effort to use properly. This season I 
will also clean up other exterior teak besides the new handrails, and treat it 
with the same Cetol treatment after cleaning. 

I did look at the Jamestown Distributors survey results ( 
https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/surveyMap.do?surveyId=102 ) 
and there was a recent positive response from a Sikkens user in my area (an 
arid, high-altitude, UV-intense environment). I also read this West Advisor 
article on wood finishes: https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Wood-Finishes, 
and read Don Casey's chapter on wood finishes, which is intensive on varnishing 
and makes only passing mention of "synthetic wood finishes" e.g. Cetol. 

The truth is that anything will look better than the old handrails, which were 
doubtless original (45 years old) and not well-maintained and breaking apart. 
The main question is how will the finish on the new handrails look, how long 
will it last, and how much effort will it take including regular maintenance. 

I put some pictures of Grenadine's new handrails at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTc093OExfMGRBX1E (the last two 
pictures in that folder). These were made by Jerrod Milton on my crew who is a 
very skilled woodworker and who has a very complete wood shop in his garage. I 
found an 11'x6"x1" teak plank for $200 at a local specialty wood store, and was 
able to non-destructively remove the old starboard handrail (pictured) to use 
as template. Jerrod ripped the plank in two lengthwise, stacked the two halves 
and pinned them together with small dowels where the cutouts would be, traced 
the pattern onto the stack from the old handrail template, cut two symmetric 
rails from the stacked half-planks at once on a band saw, then routed the edges 
on a router table and sanded the rails with a spindle sander. 

The new handrails will be nice and beefy, and we'll install them after 
finishing with stout screws pulled tight and butyl tape under the bases. 

Thanks again everyone. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Joel Aronson via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Joel Aronson" <joel.aron...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 7:12:55 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Exterior Teak Varnish Recommendation? 

Jamestown distributors has a varnish survey. Might be worth a look. 

On The Office I used Cetol Natural Teak and was generally happy with it. On 
Atlantis I started with Interlux Schooner Gold, but have switched to Epiphanes. 
I'm using the RapidClear because you can recoat every 5-6 hours without 
sanding. It takes a couple days to harden, but I'm liking it so far. 

Joel 

On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 9:27 PM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 



I've done both sickens and epiphanies on two different boats. Other than the 
time between coats, I dont see the the benefit to sickens. It seemed softer and 
less deep a finish than the varnish. As far as upkeep, a couple of coats a year 
on either product seems a wash. I'd go with the varnish myself. Although, I 
didn't do this on the new handrails on my last boat, I think I might coat new 
wood with epoxy first then 7 or 8 coats of epiphanies. I did that on the new 
hatch boards of my last boat and was pleasantly surprised with the results! I 
made them out of some marine plywood I had left over from a project on a 
previous boat and I got a lot of compliments on those hatch boards! Lol 

Danny 

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device 

 Original message  
From: RANDY via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Date: 2/28/17 2:53 PM (GMT-05:00) 
To: cnc-list < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: RANDY < randy.staff...@comcast.net > 
Subject: Stus-List Exterior Teak Varnish Recommendation? 

Listers- 

Grenadine's new exterior handrails are ready for finish and installation. 
Wanted to see if any of you have a preferred varnish for exterior teak. I'm 
looking for a clear varnish with UV protection. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

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-- 
Joel 
301 541 8551 

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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. I

Stus-List Exterior Teak Varnish Recommendation?

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Listers- 

Grenadine's new exterior handrails are ready for finish and installation. 
Wanted to see if any of you have a preferred varnish for exterior teak. I'm 
looking for a clear varnish with UV protection. 

Cheers, 
Randy 
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Re: Stus-List New (old) C 35 Mk I - Water Ingress

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Hi Tom, 

A gallon of water per week seems like a lot! Especially since the boat is 
shrink-wrapped. Are you having much snow or rain in NY this winter? 

One way water might be coming in is down the shrouds and down the chainplates, 
assuming the rig is up and the shrink-wrap seal around the shrouds is 
imperfect. When I bought my 30-1 a year ago I could tell from water damage 
inside that the chainplates were leaking, and I'm in the middle of a project to 
re-seal them right now. 

You could take a washable marker and trace around the inside of the hull just 
under the deck/hull joint, and trace around the bottom of the chainplates. 
After a few weeks, if you see the marker line running down, you'll know where 
at least some of the water is coming in. I did that on my boat and it confirmed 
the chainplate leak. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Thomas Delaney via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Thomas Delaney"  
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 8:27:36 AM 
Subject: Stus-List New (old) C 35 Mk I - Water Ingress 

Hello listers, 

In December I finalized the purchase of my first keelboat, a C 35 Mk I, after 
receiving an extremely thorough and detailed list of items to survey from Joe 
Della Barba. Joe, thanks again for your help! 

The previous owner of the boat was a local racing legend who ran a marina near 
Glen Island, NY. He had been giving me advice on readying the boat for her new 
life on a mooring after spending the last four decades in a slip adjacent to 
his houseboat. Unfortunately, he passed away last weekend. 

One of the questions I had yet to broach was the accumulation of water in the 
bilge. The boat has been on the hard, shrinkwrapped, for three years. I've been 
pumping the bilge dry every two-four weeks, and it seems to be about 2-4 
gallons of water as measured by a big plastic bucket. I'm not sure where the 
water is coming from. Apart from the bilge, water is pooling in the 
forward-most storage compartment under the port settee. My first instinct is to 
have a friend on deck hold the screws on the toerails and stanchion bases while 
I slightly tighten the nuts below deck and see if the water ingress stops. Does 
that make sense? Is there a different, better course of action I should take at 
this time? Does anyone know offhand what size socket I'll need? 

Thanks in advance, 
Tom 

--- 
Snow Goose 
C 35 Mk I 
City Island, NY 

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Re: Stus-List UCCG documentation warning going around

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Dave I am glad to hear that. I wish the "U.S. VESSEL DOCUMENTATION" notice 
hadn't arrived in my mail first. 

Incidentally the link below appears to be broken; I can't find any such article 
on cruisersnet.net. But it's interesting, because somebody else must have 
gotten burned and posted about it there. The only place I've posted about it is 
here. 

It makes me wonder if U.S. Vessel Documentation threatened cruisersnet.net and 
/ or the author of that article with defamation, and bullied them into taking 
the article down. 

For the record I am not worried about my own liability for defamation if U.S. 
Vessel Documentation were to threaten or bring a suit against me for it. I 
don't believe U.S. Vessel Documentation as a plaintiff would be able to show, 
as required, that the statements I made (that it is deceitful and predatory) 
are false. Moreover I believe my statements are protected by "qualified 
privilege", i.e. my statements were made in good faith, and on a subject matter 
in which I have an interest, and to persons having a corresponding interest, 
and without malice. 

But, having said all that, Stu, if you're reading this, and if you're worried 
about legal exposure, it's OK with me if you delete these threads. I think they 
have served their purpose. I wouldn't want any harm to come to Stu and / or 
cncphotoalbum.com as a result of these threads. 

Best Regards, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "David Kaseler via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "David Kaseler" , "Dreuge"  
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 3:04:24 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List UCCG documentation warning going around 

I received Document renewal notices from both the USCG and "U.S. VESSEL 
DOCUMENTATION" both on the same day in the US mail. Thanks to this list I 
quickly knew what was up and have renewed via the USCG notice. 
Thanks, 
Dave. 
1976 C 33 
SLY 

Sent from my iPad 

On Feb 10, 2017, at 1:19 PM, Dreuge via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 





It is good to see the word getting around. 

I just received a link to the warning notice below in an email from the SALTY 
SOUTHEAST CRUISERS’ NET. 


http://cruisersnet.net/alert-to-all-us-coast-guard-documented-vessel-owners/ 





- 
Paul E. 
1981 C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose 
Carrabelle, FL 

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/ 





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Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company

[RANDY via CnC-List]

As fate would have it, my official USCG NVDC renewal notice arrived in today's 
mail, two mail days after the bogus one arrived from "U.S. Vessel 
Documentation". This whole drama would have been avoided if the arrival order 
of those two letters had been reversed, but I would not be the least bit 
surprised if it is part of the conscious strategy of that government imposter 
company (as the Federal Trade Commission calls such scams) to beat the USCG 
NVDC to the punch. I've posted a scan of the official USCG NVDC renewal notice 
to my Google Drive at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTeU1HcDZKTWdiQzA . 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Dennis C. via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Dennis"  
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 8:46:49 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company 

Hopefully, this thread has saved some boat owner(s) some money. What better way 
to say thanks than to make a contribution to Stu's list. :) 

Dennis C. 

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Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I'd guess the United States Coast Guard's National Vessel Documentation Center 
is understaffed, which affects its turnaround time. It took them about two 
months to turn around my application for an "Exchange of Certificate of 
Documentation" when I bought my boat a year ago. But I found the people there 
to be very professional and helpful. The Coast Guard is a branch of the 
military, so I assume the NVDC staff is not civilian. The people with whom I've 
spoken on the phone there were Coast Guard officers. They process about a dozen 
different kinds of applications, and appear to prioritize by application type. 
Commercial vessels appear to be higher priority than recreational vessels. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "henry evans via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "henry evans" , "Ron Ricci"  
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 6:28:09 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company 

One can only guess how many government bureaucrats it takes to manage this mess 
? 

Hank Evans 
M/V Queen Ann's Revenge 


On Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:05 PM, Ron Ricci via CnC-List 
 wrote: 


The whole Vessel Documentation process is a total mess. When I first purchased 
Patriot it took months to get a COD in my name. The website had a place that 
actually showed how many months they were behind in getting out paperwork. At 
least then it was free. Now for $26.00 you get a renewal application in the 
mail to sign. It tell you to pay the $26. I signed the renewal , addressed the 
envelope and started writing a note to my wife asking for a check. There was 
nothing on the form to indicating who to make the check out to. I went on line, 
started typing “National Vessel Documentation Center” in the Google search box. 
After getting half way through the second word, Google completed all four 
words. The first listed entity was the ‘scam’ website. I found the USCG.mil 
website and payed on line. It did not appear that this actually renewed my COD 
so I emailed the renewal and payment info. Maybe this could be sub-contracted 
out to Amazon, UPS or FedEx. They can handle stuff like this. A simple email 
reminder and online renewal is achievable! 
Regards, 
Ron 
Ron Ricci 
S/V Patriot 


C 37+ 
Bristol, RI 
ron.ri...@1968.usna.com 


___ 

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___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 

All Contributions are greatly appreciated! 

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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company

[RANDY via CnC-List]

You are correct Josh that the site displays an obscured disclaimer in tiny font 
at the very bottom of its pages, where you wouldn't normally scroll, that they 
are not the USCG NVDC. 

HOWEVER, the company behind this site makes *so such disclaimer whatsoever* in 
the unsolicited letters it sends to vessel owners - see the letter I received 
at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTeU1HcDZKTWdiQzA . That is 
deceitful and unscrupulous. 

And you CAN pay for COD renewal online at the real USCG NVDC - see 
https://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/nvdc/, left-hand navigation menu, heading "Order 
Products Online:". I went through that process on Friday, spending another $26, 
in hopes that U.S. Vessel Documentation would cancel the renewal order I placed 
with them, which they won't because they're predatory. 

The reason I got duped by the scam is because U.S. Vessel Documentation's 
unsolicited "Vessel Renewal Courtesy Notice" letter arrived first. I've yet to 
receive any reminder notice from the real USCG NVDC, though it's been on my 
mind to expect one based on something I remember reading when I first got my 
COD (which is in my safe deposit box; I intend to retrieve it and re-read that 
promise of a reminder). 

Yes, U.S. Vessel Documentation is providing a service. The same service you can 
get for a fraction of the cost, online from the real USCG NVDC, with no 
additional value provided by U.S. Vessel Documentation for the multiple of the 
actual cost. U.S. Vessel Documentation is attempting to appear to consumers as 
the real USCG NVDC, and is ripping consumers off. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Josh Muckley via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "C List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Josh Muckley" <muckl...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 10:41:10 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company 

Nobody likes getting fooled or taken advantage of. Good on you guys for warning 
one another and the rest of the list. However, there are lots of 3rd party 
"documentation specialists". This site doesn't falsify who they are AND 
includes a disclosure about who they are and what they do. 

For the past 5 years of my documentation the USCG NVDC has sent me a renewal 
notice near the end of each year, listed the means of renewing the 
documentation, provided a due date, and listed the cost. A few years ago the 
price went from $5 to $26. I expect this practice and price to continue into 
the future. IIRC there is currently no way to pay via credit card or file 
online so each year I dust off the check book and write another single check, 
sign and return the form to NVDC via snail mail. 

The only change I've heard of possibly coming in the future is a 3 year 
documentation but as of yet that has not been implemented. 

Good luck on your quest to punish this company for "predatory" or "deceitful" 
practices but the company is simply providing a service. 

Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
1989 C 37+ 
Solomons, MD 

On Feb 5, 2017 12:15 PM, "RANDY via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 



According to 
https://businesssearch.sos.ca.gov/CBS/SearchResults?SearchType=CORP=U.S.+Vessel+Documentation=Keyword
 this company is only one year old. Its principals are John Soria and Maria 
Carlos of Long Beach, CA (husband and wife, it would appear from 
https://www.facebook.com/captainjohnsoria and 
https://www.facebook.com/maria.carlos.5268 ). John Soria is also the principal 
of U.S. Marine Surveyors http://usmarinesurveyors.com/about/ , also of Long 
Beach, CA. 

But maybe the company had a previous incarnation - John Soria's LinkedIn 
profile https://www.linkedin.com/in/captain-john-soria-9046 mentions a 
domain name vesseldocumentation.us , which was registered on 10/03/15 by one 
Edward Riener, according to 
https://www.networksolutions.com/whois/results-res.jsp?domain=vesseldocumentation.us
 . 

The current domain name uscgdocumentation.us was registered by John Soria on 
6/29/16 - 
https://www.networksolutions.com/whois/results-res.jsp?domain=uscgdocumentation.us
 . 

Ed Riener runs a diving company in Southern California that also does marine 
survey work - http://edrienerdiving.com . So my guess, and this is just a 
guess, is that Ed Riener and John Soria may have met through their work in 
Southern California, and Ed Riener may have sold a vessel documentation 
business with domain name vesseldocumentation.us (registered 10/03/15) to John 
Soria who renamed the business U.S. Vessel Documentation and launched a new 
website at uscgdocumentation.us (registered 6/29/16). 

I complained to the USCG NVDC about U.S. Vessel Documentation in email on 
Friday, and may follow up with a letter or phone call to the CO of that unit. 
It could be argued that John Soria is close to violating 18 U.S. Code 912 - 
https://www.law.cornell.edu/

Re: Stus-List Fund Raising Update

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Stu I just sent you $50 via PayPal. 

Thanks for everything you do for us. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Stu via CnC-List"  
To: "C email list"  
Cc: "Stu"  
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 10:10:35 AM 
Subject: Stus-List Fund Raising Update 

Thanks to all who have contributed to our fund raising to help cover the costs 
involved running this list. 
To date, approximately 20 members have contributed just over $300 which is 
about 50% of my bill. I would include all their names, but I am sure I would 
miss someone. 
Remember, this list is provided free for the use of all. There is no 
subscription fee. 
Please consider helping by giving a small token of your appreciation. 
Contributions can be made via PayPal at: 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
Thanks again everyone, your contributions are greatly appreciated. 
Stu 

___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 

All Contributions are greatly appreciated! 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company

[RANDY via CnC-List]

According to 
https://businesssearch.sos.ca.gov/CBS/SearchResults?SearchType=CORP=U.S.+Vessel+Documentation=Keyword
 this company is only one year old. Its principals are John Soria and Maria 
Carlos of Long Beach, CA (husband and wife, it would appear from 
https://www.facebook.com/captainjohnsoria and 
https://www.facebook.com/maria.carlos.5268 ). John Soria is also the principal 
of U.S. Marine Surveyors http://usmarinesurveyors.com/about/ , also of Long 
Beach, CA. 

But maybe the company had a previous incarnation - John Soria's LinkedIn 
profile https://www.linkedin.com/in/captain-john-soria-9046 mentions a 
domain name vesseldocumentation.us, which was registered on 10/03/15 by one 
Edward Riener, according to 
https://www.networksolutions.com/whois/results-res.jsp?domain=vesseldocumentation.us
 . 

The current domain name uscgdocumentation.us was registered by John Soria on 
6/29/16 - 
https://www.networksolutions.com/whois/results-res.jsp?domain=uscgdocumentation.us
 . 

Ed Riener runs a diving company in Southern California that also does marine 
survey work - http://edrienerdiving.com . So my guess, and this is just a 
guess, is that Ed Riener and John Soria may have met through their work in 
Southern California, and Ed Riener may have sold a vessel documentation 
business with domain name vesseldocumentation.us (registered 10/03/15) to John 
Soria who renamed the business U.S. Vessel Documentation and launched a new 
website at uscgdocumentation.us (registered 6/29/16). 

I complained to the USCG NVDC about U.S. Vessel Documentation in email on 
Friday, and may follow up with a letter or phone call to the CO of that unit. 
It could be argued that John Soria is close to violating 18 U.S. Code 912 - 
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/912 , and possibly in violation of 
federal and California consumer protection laws as well. 

Best Regards, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
- Original Message -

From: "Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Matthew L. Wolford" <wolf...@erie.net> 
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 7:05:33 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company 

FWIW, I almost fell for the same trick a couple years ago. I filled out the 
on-line form, but when I got to the price I figured there was no way the fee 
went up that much. So I left the form and found the authentic government vessel 
registration site. I called the government office in West Virginia and reported 
the scam, but apparently they do not intend to do anything about it. 
From: PETER OCAMPO via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2017 1:33 PM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: PETER OCAMPO 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company 
Randy 
I'll make you feel. Being a new boat owner I googled us coast guard 
documentation saw the web site and filled out the forms for transfer of 
ownership and they took me for 450 but I would never had known I had over paid 
had if not been for your post. 
So next time I'll use the real uscg website. So thanks for saving me money in 
the future 
Peter 
Goonie island C 40 

Sent from my iPhone 

On Feb 4, 2017, at 11:29 AM, RANDY via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 




Yes I found the USCG NVDC to be very straightforward and helpful when I 
exchanged Grenadine's CoD from her previous owner to me one year ago. The USCG 
officers with whom I spoke on the phone were professional and informative, and 
the website and forms and procedures were easy to understand and easy to use. 
My complaint here is that there a predatory third-party business trying to 
deceive vessel owners into thinking it is the USCG NVDC, and then bilking them 
for 3X the cost of what the USCG NVDC charges for the same service. It 
succeeded in doing that to me. Fool me once, shame on me. I'm not the first 
person to get screwed by this unscrupulous company and complain about it - see 
https://www.bbb.org/losangelessiliconvalley/business-reviews/not-elsewhere-classified/us-marine-surveyors-inc-or-us-vessel-documenta-in-long-beach-ca-646887/reviews-and-complaints
 
Cheers, 
Randy 
- Original Message -

From: "phorvati ." < phorv...@gmail.com > 
To: "CNC boat owners, cnc-list" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: "RANDY" < randy.staff...@comcast.net > 
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2017 8:56:03 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company 
I purchased a tayana fd12 in september, ended up submitting several parts of 
the application, all per the instruction document. Few of them were release of 
primary mortgage bill of sale and exchange of COD. all via email and pdfs 
attached. I was a bit scepticall but the coast guard website was accurate on 
processing times. I got the new COD last week. it was under 100$. So it took a 
bit, m

Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Peter I'm so sorry, and please file a complaint against them with the BBB (at 
the link below) and USCG NVDC. When I transferred my COD through the USCG NVDC 
a year ago, it cost me $96.43 ($92 fees to USCG NVDC, $4.43 certified mail 
charges sending them documents). The more bilked consumers that complain about 
this company, the better the chances it will go away. 

Thanks, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "PETER OCAMPO" <bcwwka...@gmail.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "phorvati ." <phorv...@gmail.com>, "RANDY" <randy.staff...@comcast.net> 
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2017 11:33:15 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company 

Randy 

I'll make you feel. Being a new boat owner I googled us coast guard 
documentation saw the web site and filled out the forms for transfer of 
ownership and they took me for 450 but I would never had known I had over paid 
had if not been for your post. 

So next time I'll use the real uscg website. So thanks for saving me money in 
the future 

Peter 

Goonie island C 40 

Sent from my iPhone 

On Feb 4, 2017, at 11:29 AM, RANDY via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 




Yes I found the USCG NVDC to be very straightforward and helpful when I 
exchanged Grenadine's CoD from her previous owner to me one year ago. The USCG 
officers with whom I spoke on the phone were professional and informative, and 
the website and forms and procedures were easy to understand and easy to use. 

My complaint here is that there a predatory third-party business trying to 
deceive vessel owners into thinking it is the USCG NVDC, and then bilking them 
for 3X the cost of what the USCG NVDC charges for the same service. It 
succeeded in doing that to me. Fool me once, shame on me. I'm not the first 
person to get screwed by this unscrupulous company and complain about it - see 
https://www.bbb.org/losangelessiliconvalley/business-reviews/not-elsewhere-classified/us-marine-surveyors-inc-or-us-vessel-documenta-in-long-beach-ca-646887/reviews-and-complaints
 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "phorvati ." < phorv...@gmail.com > 
To: "CNC boat owners, cnc-list" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: "RANDY" < randy.staff...@comcast.net > 
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2017 8:56:03 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company 

I purchased a tayana fd12 in september, ended up submitting several parts of 
the application, all per the instruction document. Few of them were release of 
primary mortgage bill of sale and exchange of COD. all via email and pdfs 
attached. I was a bit scepticall but the coast guard website was accurate on 
processing times. I got the new COD last week. it was under 100$. So it took a 
bit, my guess was due to request for release of PM. Coast Guard website works 
but u need to do your own due diligence, read requirements and fulfill them as 
required. 

On Feb 3, 2017 8:17 PM, "RANDY via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 



Listers - fair warning - I got deceived today into paying 3X what I needed to 
for USCG documentation renewal. I received a letter via USPS from an entity 
named "U.S. Vessel Documentation", domain name uscgdocumentation.us , titled 
"Vessel Renewal Courtesy Notice". As I'm sure the sender intended, I mistook 
the letter as being from the United States Coast Guard National Vessel 
Documentation Center, reminding me to renew my Certificate of Documentation. 
It's been on my mind that my CoD is expiring soon, and I've been expecting a 
reminder. 

So I went to uscgdocumentation.us , filled out the renewal form, and submitted 
it. I was surprised to see the price was $75 - I'd remembered the renewal cost 
being ~$25 - but I thought "well, the Coast Guard must have raised their 
prices", and submitted the form anyway, with my credit card information. 

Somehow sometime after doing that, I noticed fine print at the very bottom of 
uscgdocumentation.us web pages, where you wouldn't even normally scroll or 
look, saying "U.S. Vessel Documentation is NOT the U.S. Coast Guard or the 
National Vessel Documentation Center; we are a third party agency that handles 
USCG Documentation processing to NVDC." 

So then I went to the real USCG NVDC website, 
https://www.uscg.mil/nvdc/default.asp, where I applied for an exchange of the 
CoD last year when I bought Grenadine (since she was previously 
USCG-documented), and confirmed their renewal fee is only $26 and you can file 
for renewal online right there. 

At that point I realized I'd been had, and immediately requested cancellation 
of my renewal order from that company, in writing, and in voice mail, and filed 
a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and the USGC NVDC about "U.S. 
Vessel Documentation", and contac

Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Yes I found the USCG NVDC to be very straightforward and helpful when I 
exchanged Grenadine's CoD from her previous owner to me one year ago. The USCG 
officers with whom I spoke on the phone were professional and informative, and 
the website and forms and procedures were easy to understand and easy to use. 

My complaint here is that there a predatory third-party business trying to 
deceive vessel owners into thinking it is the USCG NVDC, and then bilking them 
for 3X the cost of what the USCG NVDC charges for the same service. It 
succeeded in doing that to me. Fool me once, shame on me. I'm not the first 
person to get screwed by this unscrupulous company and complain about it - see 
https://www.bbb.org/losangelessiliconvalley/business-reviews/not-elsewhere-classified/us-marine-surveyors-inc-or-us-vessel-documenta-in-long-beach-ca-646887/reviews-and-complaints
 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "phorvati ." <phorv...@gmail.com> 
To: "CNC boat owners, cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "RANDY" <randy.staff...@comcast.net> 
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2017 8:56:03 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company 

I purchased a tayana fd12 in september, ended up submitting several parts of 
the application, all per the instruction document. Few of them were release of 
primary mortgage bill of sale and exchange of COD. all via email and pdfs 
attached. I was a bit scepticall but the coast guard website was accurate on 
processing times. I got the new COD last week. it was under 100$. So it took a 
bit, my guess was due to request for release of PM. Coast Guard website works 
but u need to do your own due diligence, read requirements and fulfill them as 
required. 

On Feb 3, 2017 8:17 PM, "RANDY via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 



Listers - fair warning - I got deceived today into paying 3X what I needed to 
for USCG documentation renewal. I received a letter via USPS from an entity 
named "U.S. Vessel Documentation", domain name uscgdocumentation.us , titled 
"Vessel Renewal Courtesy Notice". As I'm sure the sender intended, I mistook 
the letter as being from the United States Coast Guard National Vessel 
Documentation Center, reminding me to renew my Certificate of Documentation. 
It's been on my mind that my CoD is expiring soon, and I've been expecting a 
reminder. 

So I went to uscgdocumentation.us , filled out the renewal form, and submitted 
it. I was surprised to see the price was $75 - I'd remembered the renewal cost 
being ~$25 - but I thought "well, the Coast Guard must have raised their 
prices", and submitted the form anyway, with my credit card information. 

Somehow sometime after doing that, I noticed fine print at the very bottom of 
uscgdocumentation.us web pages, where you wouldn't even normally scroll or 
look, saying "U.S. Vessel Documentation is NOT the U.S. Coast Guard or the 
National Vessel Documentation Center; we are a third party agency that handles 
USCG Documentation processing to NVDC." 

So then I went to the real USCG NVDC website, 
https://www.uscg.mil/nvdc/default.asp, where I applied for an exchange of the 
CoD last year when I bought Grenadine (since she was previously 
USCG-documented), and confirmed their renewal fee is only $26 and you can file 
for renewal online right there. 

At that point I realized I'd been had, and immediately requested cancellation 
of my renewal order from that company, in writing, and in voice mail, and filed 
a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and the USGC NVDC about "U.S. 
Vessel Documentation", and contacted my credit card company to block the charge 
from this merchant. I'm now in the process of posting about this experience on 
sailing-related forums I've visited. 

If you own a USCG-documented vessel, *DO NOT* do business through the deceitful 
company uscgdocumentation.us , unless you don't mind paying 3X the cost of 
something you could do directly though https://www.uscg.mil/nvdc/default.asp . 
These "U.S. Vessel Documentation" people are predatory. 

I've posted the letter I received, and an email exchange I had with this 
company, at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTeU1HcDZKTWdiQzA . 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 

All Contributions are greatly appreciated! 





___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Deceitful USCG Documentation Renewal Company

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Listers - fair warning - I got deceived today into paying 3X what I needed to 
for USCG documentation renewal. I received a letter via USPS from an entity 
named "U.S. Vessel Documentation", domain name uscgdocumentation.us, titled 
"Vessel Renewal Courtesy Notice". As I'm sure the sender intended, I mistook 
the letter as being from the United States Coast Guard National Vessel 
Documentation Center, reminding me to renew my Certificate of Documentation. 
It's been on my mind that my CoD is expiring soon, and I've been expecting a 
reminder. 

So I went to uscgdocumentation.us, filled out the renewal form, and submitted 
it. I was surprised to see the price was $75 - I'd remembered the renewal cost 
being ~$25 - but I thought "well, the Coast Guard must have raised their 
prices", and submitted the form anyway, with my credit card information. 

Somehow sometime after doing that, I noticed fine print at the very bottom of 
uscgdocumentation.us web pages, where you wouldn't even normally scroll or 
look, saying "U.S. Vessel Documentation is NOT the U.S. Coast Guard or the 
National Vessel Documentation Center; we are a third party agency that handles 
USCG Documentation processing to NVDC." 

So then I went to the real USCG NVDC website, 
https://www.uscg.mil/nvdc/default.asp, where I applied for an exchange of the 
CoD last year when I bought Grenadine (since she was previously 
USCG-documented), and confirmed their renewal fee is only $26 and you can file 
for renewal online right there. 

At that point I realized I'd been had, and immediately requested cancellation 
of my renewal order from that company, in writing, and in voice mail, and filed 
a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and the USGC NVDC about "U.S. 
Vessel Documentation", and contacted my credit card company to block the charge 
from this merchant. I'm now in the process of posting about this experience on 
sailing-related forums I've visited. 

If you own a USCG-documented vessel, *DO NOT* do business through the deceitful 
company uscgdocumentation.us, unless you don't mind paying 3X the cost of 
something you could do directly though https://www.uscg.mil/nvdc/default.asp . 
These "U.S. Vessel Documentation" people are predatory. 

I've posted the letter I received, and an email exchange I had with this 
company, at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTeU1HcDZKTWdiQzA . 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Pins in Chainplates

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Does anybody know what the heck these pins in C chainplates are for? 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTa2dfMFlmWHlsR0U 

Cheers, 
Randy 
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Deck Coring Around Chainplates

[RANDY via CnC-List]

nnel sealant too. I don't know of a good reason not to use butyl tape 
so once your plate is bolted back in place make sure to pack any gap around the 
chain plate and make a doughnut around the chain plate. Layer the cover plate 
with a thin layer of butyl (stay about 1/4 of an inch from the edges). Tighten 
everything down. Having an extra set of hands will help at almost every step of 
the process. 

Good luck, 
Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
1989 C 37+ 
Solomons, MD 


On Jan 30, 2017 10:17 PM, "RANDY via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 



I'd really like to thank everyone for all the responses on this. 

Went back to the boat today and carefully re-examined the core around the 
chainplate cutouts, and did a bunch of testing - percussion testing, weighting 
the area and looking for deflection, etc. Put a few pictures up at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTcTV6UlEwMmlqZkk . 

I don't think the extent of coring warrants peeling the top skin and replacing 
core material; I think digging out some core around the edges, and filling with 
thickened epoxy, will be enough of an improvement and repair. The deck, 
especially outboard and downslope of the chainplate cutouts, doesn't sound dull 
and doesn't deflect downward. It seems solid enough. 

The chainplates themselves show no signs of corrosion or moisture damage. Only 
one bolt (lowest inboard starboard) out of 14 showed any rust, and it was 
superficial (nowhere near twisting the head off). I'm fortunate that my boat 
has had a freshwater life its entire life. 

You can see in the pictures I've got a bit more old sealant to clean away, but 
then I think a dig, fill, and re-seal job should suffice. Really appreciate 
everyone's responses. Someday I'll need to work up the courage to do a peel & 
re-core job under my starboard aft bow pulpit foot - I have a small soft spot 
there. 

Best Regards, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 


From: "Dave S via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
To: "C Stus List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: "Dave S" < syerd...@gmail.com > 
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 9:43:00 AM 

Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck Coring Around Chainplates 


FWIW, and I agree with much below. Will assume you are dealing with balsa and 
not plywood as a core. Have repaired both and will share the following, YMMV, 
etc... Probably way too much info, but: 

1) Damp balsa does not mean structurally unsound (yet) 

2) I prefer to remove more rather than less. This allows you a large enough 
area to work, makes it easy to clean/prep the surfaces, as well as being 
certain that you are not building any voids into the finished result. You can 
also use really thick glass-loaded epoxy that simply cannot be injected into a 
small hole. As with drywall/sheetrock, it is sometimes easier when doing 
repairs to give yourself space to work, and to prep the surfaces. 

3) I like the hole saw approach, cutting through one skin only. The hole saw 
also allows you the opportunity to install a structural filler piece, well 
bedded in glass-filled epoxy. Rather than just troweling in the schmutz. you 
can laminate a sheet of fibreglass into a high density layup of the appropriate 
thickness, (even tapered, or curved) then use the same hole saw to cut out a 
"puck" from that sheet and install into the hole. Bulletproof. 

4) IMO Working from below is best if you have the space/access, for a number of 
reasons, including the fact that any holes won't move. Working from above can 
be easier, though the cosmetic redemption is harder. 

5) Epoxy is available in a range of cure times. "hot in the pot" should not be 
an issue if you pick the right one. Never had that happen, but I have had it 
get a little warm and further shorten the cure time. (have had polyester resin 
get pretty hot) 

6) To make a patch that feathers on the edges, laminate progressively smaller 
pieces of cloth (alternate mat and cloth with polyester resin, I like biaxial 
stitch mat with epoxy) on a sheet of waxed paper, then lift that and stick it 
onto the wound like a bandaid, peeling off the waxed paper. Best is to do this 
(or any sequential application of epoxy) on top of the previous epoxy 
application while it is at its B stage (gelled but not cured) Not only is the 
putty still it pliable, but it will not need prep to achieve a good chemical 
bond. You can not simply epoxy over top of cured epoxy and expect a bond. 
(google "amine blush") 

7) when done, (but not cured) you can carefully lay some PE film (or waxed 
paper) over top and smooth. this can help tame any stray edges and depending on 
the repair, actually functions a bit like a vacuum bag, assisting in adhesion 
to curves. You can also shape any putty into smooth shapes or radii for a more 
professional result. 

8) Read up on fillers. If you expect to fill space, you don't want th

Re: Stus-List Deck Coring Around Chainplates

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I'd really like to thank everyone for all the responses on this. 

Went back to the boat today and carefully re-examined the core around the 
chainplate cutouts, and did a bunch of testing - percussion testing, weighting 
the area and looking for deflection, etc. Put a few pictures up at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTcTV6UlEwMmlqZkk . 

I don't think the extent of coring warrants peeling the top skin and replacing 
core material; I think digging out some core around the edges, and filling with 
thickened epoxy, will be enough of an improvement and repair. The deck, 
especially outboard and downslope of the chainplate cutouts, doesn't sound dull 
and doesn't deflect downward. It seems solid enough. 

The chainplates themselves show no signs of corrosion or moisture damage. Only 
one bolt (lowest inboard starboard) out of 14 showed any rust, and it was 
superficial (nowhere near twisting the head off). I'm fortunate that my boat 
has had a freshwater life its entire life. 

You can see in the pictures I've got a bit more old sealant to clean away, but 
then I think a dig, fill, and re-seal job should suffice. Really appreciate 
everyone's responses. Someday I'll need to work up the courage to do a peel & 
re-core job under my starboard aft bow pulpit foot - I have a small soft spot 
there. 

Best Regards, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Dave S via CnC-List"  
To: "C Stus List"  
Cc: "Dave S"  
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 9:43:00 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck Coring Around Chainplates 


FWIW, and I agree with much below. Will assume you are dealing with balsa and 
not plywood as a core. Have repaired both and will share the following, YMMV, 
etc... Probably way too much info, but: 

1) Damp balsa does not mean structurally unsound (yet) 

2) I prefer to remove more rather than less. This allows you a large enough 
area to work, makes it easy to clean/prep the surfaces, as well as being 
certain that you are not building any voids into the finished result. You can 
also use really thick glass-loaded epoxy that simply cannot be injected into a 
small hole. As with drywall/sheetrock, it is sometimes easier when doing 
repairs to give yourself space to work, and to prep the surfaces. 

3) I like the hole saw approach, cutting through one skin only. The hole saw 
also allows you the opportunity to install a structural filler piece, well 
bedded in glass-filled epoxy. Rather than just troweling in the schmutz. you 
can laminate a sheet of fibreglass into a high density layup of the appropriate 
thickness, (even tapered, or curved) then use the same hole saw to cut out a 
"puck" from that sheet and install into the hole. Bulletproof. 

4) IMO Working from below is best if you have the space/access, for a number of 
reasons, including the fact that any holes won't move. Working from above can 
be easier, though the cosmetic redemption is harder. 

5) Epoxy is available in a range of cure times. "hot in the pot" should not be 
an issue if you pick the right one. Never had that happen, but I have had it 
get a little warm and further shorten the cure time. (have had polyester resin 
get pretty hot) 

6) To make a patch that feathers on the edges, laminate progressively smaller 
pieces of cloth (alternate mat and cloth with polyester resin, I like biaxial 
stitch mat with epoxy) on a sheet of waxed paper, then lift that and stick it 
onto the wound like a bandaid, peeling off the waxed paper. Best is to do this 
(or any sequential application of epoxy) on top of the previous epoxy 
application while it is at its B stage (gelled but not cured) Not only is the 
putty still it pliable, but it will not need prep to achieve a good chemical 
bond. You can not simply epoxy over top of cured epoxy and expect a bond. 
(google "amine blush") 

7) when done, (but not cured) you can carefully lay some PE film (or waxed 
paper) over top and smooth. this can help tame any stray edges and depending on 
the repair, actually functions a bit like a vacuum bag, assisting in adhesion 
to curves. You can also shape any putty into smooth shapes or radii for a more 
professional result. 

8) Read up on fillers. If you expect to fill space, you don't want the epoxy to 
flow, you need colloidal silica, If you want it to be strong you need to load 
with glass, you want to sand it microspheres. (don't put yourself in the 
position of having to sand the structural part of a repair) 

9) make a notched trowel and use appropriate fillers for fairing/finishing. The 
notches leave little ridges in the epoxy. Sand those off and stop. 

OK, that's enough... 

Dave 


-- Forwarded message -- 
From: < cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com > 
Date: 30 January 2017 at 09:25 
Subject: CnC-List Digest, Vol 132, Issue 70 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 


Send CnC-List mailing list submissions 

Re: Stus-List Deck Coring Around Chainplates

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thanks Dennis (and Gary and Sam). Let me see where I stand on Tuesday - I may 
be ready to epoxy if I can do the bent nail and acetone thing tomorrow. Let's 
call or text on Tuesday. 

Gary - my chainplate covers are aluminum and still in good shape, just needed a 
really good cleaning (probably 44 years' worth of various sealant jobs built up 
on their undersides). 

Sam - yes my chainplates bolt to fiberglass "knees" tabbed to the hull. And the 
chainplates and knees are in good shape - no sign of weakening from exposure to 
moisture. I just want to make sure I do a proper job of sealing it all up so I 
don't get more coring in the deck going forward. Unfortunately it looks like my 
boat's previous owners didn't do a proper job (e.g. per Don Casey's 
prescriptions) of keeping this area sealed, and a little bit of coring 
occurred. The starboard side was all gooped up with clear silicone, and the 
port side had an ineffective bead of white caulk around the edge of the cover, 
and both sides had hard-as-rock probably original white-colored sealant under 
those other sealants. 

I'll be using polysulfide (Life Caulk) per Don Casey for the re-bedding 
sealant. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Dennis C. via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Dennis" <capt...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 4:30:09 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deck Coring Around Chainplates 

Randy, 

You're on the right track. Wish I'd known you were doing that, I would have 
stopped by and taken a peek. I'm back up in the mountains now. 

If it was me, I'd remove the wet core as far back as I could with bent nail, 
etc., dry it with acetone and/or heat gun, tape the area, inject some neat 
epoxy until it was level with the deck, use bent nail to agitate it then 
quickly suck out the epoxy. That will coat the exposed surfaces so the 
thickened epoxy will bond better. Then I'd inject thickened epoxy, let it cure 
and re-install the chalnplates. Don't forget to chamfer the hole so the bedding 
plate doesn't sit down on a square edged cut. 

I'm headed back down to the airport Tuesday afternoon. Got to pick up my ski 
buddies Wednesday morning. I might be able to swing by the dry storage on the 
way. 

Dennis C. 

On Jan 29, 2017 3:48 PM, "RANDY via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 



Listers- 

We're having a spate of nice weather here in Denver - supposed to be sunny all 
week and 61 degrees tomorrow (yes, in late January / early February). 

So today I pulled the chainplates on my 1972 C 30 MK I as part of a planned 
rebedding job (I confirmed leaks down the chainplates last year). Unfortunately 
after removing all old sealant I found some wet and rotten wood core material 
between the outer and inner deck skins around the chainplate cutout holes. 

Now I want to solicit the list's collective wisdom on how to deal with this the 
right way. The lazy approach would be to just reinstall the chainplates and 
inject new sealant all around, including into the void between deck skins where 
rotten core came out, butting up against remaining (and possibly still wet) 
core. 

On the other hand I've read everything Don Casey has to say about cored deck 
repair. I could consider removing core around all sides of the cutout, about a 
half-inch back from each edge, using a bent nail chucked into a power drill. 
Then I could fill those voids with thickened epoxy to the edges of the cutout, 
and then re-bed the chainplates. 

The extreme end of the spectrum would be to try to map out the area of wet core 
e.g. perhaps from the outboard edge of the chainplate cutout all the way to the 
toe rail, then remove and replace the damaged core. However that seems like a 
huge and complicated job, and I don't think the wet area is that large. I 
haven't noticed any softness or squishiness around the chainplates at all, but 
I can percussion-test it carefully. 

In the meantime I'm letting those areas dry out by leaving the chainplates out 
and exposing those areas to the dry Colorado air. I may go pour some acetone in 
those voids too, since Don Casey identifies that as a core-drying technique. 

I'm leaning towards the void-filling approach. What do you think? 

Thanks, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 

All Contributions are greatly appreciated! 






___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 

All Contributions are greatly appreciated! 

___

Th

Stus-List Deck Coring Around Chainplates

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Listers- 

We're having a spate of nice weather here in Denver - supposed to be sunny all 
week and 61 degrees tomorrow (yes, in late January / early February). 

So today I pulled the chainplates on my 1972 C 30 MK I as part of a planned 
rebedding job (I confirmed leaks down the chainplates last year). Unfortunately 
after removing all old sealant I found some wet and rotten wood core material 
between the outer and inner deck skins around the chainplate cutout holes. 

Now I want to solicit the list's collective wisdom on how to deal with this the 
right way. The lazy approach would be to just reinstall the chainplates and 
inject new sealant all around, including into the void between deck skins where 
rotten core came out, butting up against remaining (and possibly still wet) 
core. 

On the other hand I've read everything Don Casey has to say about cored deck 
repair. I could consider removing core around all sides of the cutout, about a 
half-inch back from each edge, using a bent nail chucked into a power drill. 
Then I could fill those voids with thickened epoxy to the edges of the cutout, 
and then re-bed the chainplates. 

The extreme end of the spectrum would be to try to map out the area of wet core 
e.g. perhaps from the outboard edge of the chainplate cutout all the way to the 
toe rail, then remove and replace the damaged core. However that seems like a 
huge and complicated job, and I don't think the wet area is that large. I 
haven't noticed any softness or squishiness around the chainplates at all, but 
I can percussion-test it carefully. 

In the meantime I'm letting those areas dry out by leaving the chainplates out 
and exposing those areas to the dry Colorado air. I may go pour some acetone in 
those voids too, since Don Casey identifies that as a core-drying technique. 

I'm leaning towards the void-filling approach. What do you think? 

Thanks, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List cleaning the engine compartment

[RANDY via CnC-List]

By the way Purple Power also works wonders on cleaning scuzzy ball caps. I've 
used the technique in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFnESGpDv4M 
- with very successful results on some of my favorite oft-worn sailing caps - 
St. Vincent & the Grenadines, St. John National Park, etc. - that had really 
disgusting scum buildup on the band around the forehead. They came out like 
new. I embellished the technique a bit, by scrubbing the sweatband and bill 
parts of the cap with a grout cleaning brush and Purple Power. No need to give 
up on your favorite old hats when they get too gross! Just clean 'em how that 
Bubba in the video says to. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Matthew L. Wolford"  
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 4:11:05 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List cleaning the engine compartment 

Thanks for the insight regarding stainless steel being subject to Clorox 
corrosion. Good to know. 
I guess I’m back to Purple Power and elbow grease. 
From: Michael Brown via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 3:58 PM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Michael Brown 
Subject: Stus-List cleaning the engine compartment 
Chlorine does react with SS. I would be careful using it on a boat in high 
concentrations. 
Also standard bleach is not a cleaner unless it has some additives. I think the 
chlorine 
tablets remain stable for a while but liquid bleach like Clorox breaks down 
into salt and 
water even while sealed. In places that need known concentrations the suggested 
shelf 
life is six months. If it is stored outside of 50 - 70F it may break down 
faster. 

Michael Brown 
Windburn 
C 30-1 




Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 15:09:52 -0500 
From: "Bill Coleman"  
To:  
Subject: Re: Stus-List cleaning the engine compartment. 
Message-ID: <1b3301d27810$28a15fc0$79e41f40$@net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 

Matt, you probably dissolved a hole in your tank. 

Chlorine is super corrosive. I put a little chlorine pool pill in my intake 
strainer, and it corroded the 316 SS screen so bad half of it was gone. Didn?t 
take that long either. 



Bill Coleman 

C 39 



From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Matthew L. 
Wolford via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 11:50 AM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Matthew L. Wolford 
Subject: Re: Stus-List cleaning the engine compartment. 



I discovered something by accident a few years ago. I decided to clean the 
cruddy, old freshwater tank on my 34 by putting in some water and a gallon of 
Clorox and letting it slosh around. I discovered a day or two later that the 
tank had leaked and nearly all the contents had drained into the bilge (which 
was more or less filled). When I removed the highly chlorinated water from the 
bilge, it was remarkably clean. 






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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 



All Contributions are greatly appreciated! 

___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 

All Contributions are greatly appreciated! 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!