Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[detroito91 via CnC-List]

Went to Raymarine site. It said choose family. It gives me C70 and C90. We have 
C80? So which would I choose? 
 Jim
Sea Ya!
C 38 LF
Washington, NC


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device

 Original message From: Frederick G Street via 
CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Date:09/20/2016  8:05 AM  
(GMT-05:00) To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Frederick G 
Street <f...@postaudio.net> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits 
the instrument, vhf and autopilot business! 
Dave and all: what “announcement” is this, exactly?  I still get 
dealer-only emails from Raymarine, and I haven’t received any announcements 
like the one you reference.  And as Graham mentioned, Raymarine is NOT the only 
one who uses their MFDs to update other system software.  Simrad, B and 
others do exactly the same thing.

Can anyone on the list with a Garmin autopilot update its software with an SD 
card, without having a Garmin MFD on the network?  How about upgrading your 
Furuno instruments?

Getting angry about this doesn’t make much sense to me.  It’s industry-wide.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

On Sep 20, 2016, at 12:44 AM, RANDY via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

Given Raymarine's announcement, maybe I made a lucky choice. :) 

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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

An Linux

On Sep 22, 2016 10:21 AM, "Dave S via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:

> .And windows.
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 18:02:44 -0400
> From: Jerome Tauber <jrtau...@aol.com>
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
> Message-ID: <f2df26b3-50bd-4dbc-b1a7-ff119c063...@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Note also that Open CPN software is only available for Android tablets at
> this time, not IPad.  Jerry J
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

…. And And OSX(or as of yesterday’s latest release MacOS).


In fact, I find using OpenCPN very easy to create routes which I then transfer 
to my e7D.


-
Paul E.
1981 C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose
Carrabelle, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

> On Sep 22, 2016, at 12:00 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
> 
> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 10:20:40 -0400
> From: Dave S <syerd...@gmail.com <mailto:syerd...@gmail.com>>
> To: jrtau...@aol.com <mailto:jrtau...@aol.com>, "C Stus List" 
> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
> Message-ID:
>   

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Just catching up on this. 

 

I think that NMEA 2000 has removed a lot of proprietary barriers, but I agree 
they all try to have some exclusivity to keep you in their herd. Garmin seems 
to be the most open, probably because they are the latest Instrument Mfg. to 
the party.

 

With regards to updating instruments, I don’t know how else you could update 
them unless you had some type of processor (MFD) to interface with them, 
displays don’t have that type of intellect on their own. And of course the 
generation before them you couldn’t update at all, so just being able to 
upgrade somehow is certainly a move forward, not backwards.

 

I can remember sending my old CRC80 back to Raymarine for a factory update, and 
they re-sealed the screen for me as well. Better than having to buy all new 
hardware for new features.

 

What DOES irritate me, is Navionics now telling me on my screen every time I 
start, to pay for a yearly subscription for the features I already thought I 
had paid for, such as routing, etc. Now that seems like a ‘Gotcha’, as they are 
taking them away!

 

 

Bill Coleman

C 39 Erie, PA

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Patrick 
Davin via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 7:33 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Patrick Davin
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

 

I agree with you. If I had known Raymarine's love of proprietary, lock-you-in, 
charge-as-much-as-they-please techniques, I probably wouldn't have bought an 
i70 and wind instrument.  (It's pretty astounding how much they charge per foot 
for a backbone cable, and even the little plastic caps you use to terminate it)

 

I can see how for some people that aspect isn't that important though, there 
are other things to consider like hardware quality and reliability. 

 

Being in the software industry it was just amazing to see the effort Raymarine 
has made to maintain incompatibility / closed systems. In software if you have 
a common transfer protocol that companies are building their own proprietary 
things on top of, it's either intentional or incompetence. Raymarine doesn't 
seem incompetent so I have to conclude it's intentional. 

 

Apple is actually a good example of a software company that uses similar 
proprietary lock-in techniques to create a closed system. Just take for example 
their proprietary charging port and the latest iphone decision to remove an 
open standard (audio jack) in favor of a closed standard (Apple charging port 
with proprietary audio jack adapter). 

 

People that go Apple are deciding that paying a premium for equivalent hardware 
is worth it for whatever benefits they believe they get out of it (ex, better 
UX design?). With Apple it's not as bad though because they at least try to 
make things easier for the consumer. 

 

The good news is I think software updates to an i70 are much less important 
than updates to a chartplotter. Wind algorithms don't change that often, and 
I'm basically happy with the UI. Charts and charting UI do change often. My 
three Android devices cost less than a Raymarine MFD and provide triple 
redundancy.

 

-Patrick

S/V Violet Hour, Seattle, WA

C LF38

 

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 9:00 AM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:

-- Forwarded message --
From: Dave S <syerd...@gmail.com>
To: "C Stus List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: 
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:47:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

Joel, 

 

That's pretty much the nut of it, there is not the same critical mass or 
informed user base as with  mainstream mobile computing, (and this IS mobile 
computing) and today, the tradeoff exists between the benefits (many contrived) 
of single-brand solutions, and the benefits of a more open approach.  Still, 
they have to strategize about their new competition - a $50, full featured 
chartplotter,   (yes, in a relatively fragile device) on technologies with very 
short (relatively) life cycles and blistering innovation rates.   Amazing 
really.  

 

I dealt with the fragility issues by buying a lifeproof case and RAM mount.  
Pretty rugged stuff, and fine for my application - summer sailing on Lake 
Ontario. 

 

I differ a bit on the software upgrade opinion - as with cars this could be a 
safety and liability issue for the manufacturers.   If they make it 
unreasonably difficult, they have a problem.  something else for them to 
grapple with.  

  

Other than chartplotters, tablet based Apps are thin on the ground so far, 
partly because of the small market, partly the "closed shop" of the major 
players, and - somewhat related- partly because "open" wireless N2K is in its 
infancy, though this is changing.  The next few years will be interesting!  
 

 

Dave

 

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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Dave S via CnC-List]

.And windows.


--

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 18:02:44 -0400
From: Jerome Tauber <jrtau...@aol.com>
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
Message-ID: <f2df26b3-50bd-4dbc-b1a7-ff119c063...@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Note also that Open CPN software is only available for Android tablets at
this time, not IPad.  Jerry J

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

I've kinda sat back and watched this discussion unfold.  Everyone has
pretty much been making the observations which I also made when considering
a new MFD.  As a result I have not purchased a new MFD!

Someone else on the list got me turned on to OpenPlotter.  They also put
together Navigatrix.   Both seek to capitalize on open source solutions
that can be installed on your choice of hardware.  OpenPlotter is more of a
headless solution that will have and create interoperability with all of
your existing hardware.  The developer community is creating some amazing
inroads.

I've already put together a Raspberry Pi B+ with OpenPlotter and a
microUPS.  The sailing season started and I never got it installed on the
boat.  This winter I plan to get the latest version installed with the new
Raspberry Pi 3 and a new microUPS.  I don't have NMEA2000 so I don't know
how well that software solution works (IIRC - CanBUS?) but the rest of the
software package seems to work really well.  I've been "burning it in"
during the summer.  It is always on and always working.  It is broadcasting
SignalK, Wifi hotspot, and remote login services all while multiplexing the
NMEA 0183 inputs.  It is running headlessly but can be attached to any HDMI
display and has USB so it will support a touchscreen.  Any internet ready
device can attach to the system and act as a head-unit or simply a
display.  My thought is that any of the existing MFDs are better
weatherproofed so integrating an older (cheaper) MFD as the head made be a
better option than trying to weatherproof and mount a tablet.

Anyway, this is all part of the reason I'm clinging to my old NMEA 0183
instrument, Autopilot, and venerable Garmin 182C chartplotter.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD

On Sep 20, 2016 9:47 AM, "Dave S via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:

> OK, my cheeky tabloid headline was more provocative than I expected!
>
> This locked down approach is indeed the historic norm, but today it is not
> industry-wide, and it is changing fast.  Another example of disruptive
> technologies reshaping an industry, and the industry trying to (or trying
> not to) adapt..  
> For my part, I am far more fascinated than I am angry, its interesting,
> and a moment in time in an industry.
>
> Will check Furuno later, (might have been ICOM), I did this quickly and
> did not save what I found.   Navico I already posted - needs a cable,
> software, PC, and Garmin looks like it needs a chartplotter.
>
> Compared to my '80s B hunter stuff, my Raymarine i70 multifunction
> instrument is amazing.   I'm starting to realize though, that it
> is simply a dumbed-down ruggedized ipod touch with a senior-friendly user
> interface that can run only one app.   Forever.   ;-)Ooops, provocative
> again!
>
> All playfulness and side debates aside, if the new normal is that software
> updates are part of ownership, hardware ownership should not come with
> undisclosed hidden costs.
>
> Dave
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 07:05:37 -0500
> From: Frederick G Street <f...@postaudio.net>
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
> autopilot business!
> Message-ID: <329cad61-d4a1-44ec-9b6e-c43be1b65...@postaudio.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dave and all: what ?announcement? is this, exactly?  I still get
> dealer-only emails from Raymarine, and I haven?t received any announcements
> like the one you reference.  And as Graham mentioned, Raymarine is NOT the
> only one who uses their MFDs to update other system software.  Simrad, B
> and others do exactly the same thing.
>
> Can anyone on the list with a Garmin autopilot update its software with an
> SD card, without having a Garmin MFD on the network?  How about upgrading
> your Furuno instruments?
>
> Getting angry about this doesn?t make much sense to me.  It?s
> industry-wide.
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
>
> > On Sep 20, 2016, at 12:44 AM, RANDY via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Given Raymarine's announcement, maybe I made a lucky choice. :)
>
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/
> attachments/20160920/45e51b60/attachment-0001.html>
>
>
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>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Jerome Tauber via CnC-List]

Note also that Open CPN software is only available for Android tablets at this 
time, not IPad.  Jerry J

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 21, 2016, at 5:31 PM, Patrick Davin via CnC-List 
> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> 
> Oops - I didn't mean to turn this into an Apple vs Android debate! : ) But I 
> can't resist responding to a few of your points: 
> 
> - It's not true that on Android you're locked in to one app store. There are 
> alternatives (most well-known of which is Amazon's app store): 
> https://www.androidpit.com/best-google-play-store-alternative-app-stores
> Also Android phones can be easily unlocked and you can install any app 
> package that you wish, downloaded from the Internet without any app store (at 
> your own risk). Apple doesn't allow that to be done easily (you need to 
> "jailbreak" it), and their app store is also more restrictive of app 
> approvals. 
> 
> - Hardware lock-in - maybe we have different definitions of "lock in", but 
> what I meant could be better phrased as "intentionally decreased hardware 
> intercompatibility." I can't power/charge an iphone with a USB 2.0 or 3.0 
> cable (without some kind of adapter), and those are industry wide open 
> standards. 
> 
> So, yes, Apple isn't the same as Raymarine (and objectively not as bad), but 
> both have good examples of similar efforts made to create a closed ecosystem.
> 
> And I am typing this on a MacBook Air. So I'm not a complete Mac hater. : )
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 7:32 PM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>> From: Stevan Plavsa <stevanpla...@gmail.com>
>> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>> Cc: 
>> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 21:37:20 -0400
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
>> Patrick, I have to chime in for Apple here - and not speaking to the iPhone 
>> 7 because I haven't been paying attention and I'm an Android guy, but there 
>> is no "hardware lock in" with Apple. "Ecosystem" lock in, absolutely. You 
>> get the iPhone so you're locked to their App store - yes. This is also true 
>> for Android. There are benefits and there are drawbacks, but hardware lock 
>> in - no. They use all the same ports everyone else uses these days. I'm a 
>> Windows, Linux and Mac guy ... Someone wants to take my macbook? - from my 
>> cold dead hands!
>> 
>> The XPS laptops and that come close in industrial design these days - they 
>> have that nice edge display. But it's still Windows and well, Windows was my 
>> first, but it's a total kludge fest compared to the UI in OSX. I use both, 
>> every day and once upon a time, back in the OS9 days, I made fun of the mac 
>> guys. 
>> 
>> Steve
>> Suhana, C 32
>> Toronto
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Oops - I didn't mean to turn this into an Apple vs Android debate! : ) But
I can't resist responding to a few of your points:

- It's not true that on Android you're locked in to one app store. There
are alternatives (most well-known of which is Amazon's app store):
https://www.androidpit.com/best-google-play-store-alternative-app-stores
Also Android phones can be easily unlocked and you can install any app
package that you wish, downloaded from the Internet without any app store
(at your own risk). Apple doesn't allow that to be done easily (you need to
"jailbreak" it), and their app store is also more restrictive of app
approvals.

- Hardware lock-in - maybe we have different definitions of "lock in", but
what I meant could be better phrased as "intentionally decreased hardware
intercompatibility." I can't power/charge an iphone with a USB 2.0 or 3.0
cable (without some kind of adapter), and those are industry wide open
standards.

So, yes, Apple isn't the same as Raymarine (and objectively not as bad),
but both have good examples of similar efforts made to create a closed
ecosystem.

And I am typing this on a MacBook Air. So I'm not a complete Mac hater. : )

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 7:32 PM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> From: Stevan Plavsa <stevanpla...@gmail.com>
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 21:37:20 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
> Patrick, I have to chime in for Apple here - and not speaking to the
> iPhone 7 because I haven't been paying attention and I'm an Android guy,
> but there is no "hardware lock in" with Apple. "Ecosystem" lock in,
> absolutely. You get the iPhone so you're locked to their App store - yes.
> This is also true for Android. There are benefits and there are drawbacks,
> but hardware lock in - no. They use all the same ports everyone else uses
> these days. I'm a Windows, Linux and Mac guy ... Someone wants to take my
> macbook? - from my cold dead hands!
>
> The XPS laptops and that come close in industrial design these days - they
> have that nice edge display. But it's still Windows and well, Windows was
> my first, but it's a total kludge fest compared to the UI in OSX. I use
> both, every day and once upon a time, back in the OS9 days, I made fun of
> the mac guys.
>
> Steve
> Suhana, C 32
> Toronto
>
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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[Danny Haughey via CnC-List]

When I bought our boat last fall there were brand new speed/depth/wind 
instruments installed (very poorly and they barely worked but there they 
were)


So I struggled with what to do about a plotter.  I considered Ipad, 
SmartPhone, Windows Tablet,  In the end I went with a raymarine 
MFD/Radar Bundle that were on a really nice sale.


The hardest part of the install had nothing to do with the instruments.  
It was routing cable and installing a new pedestal guard with a pod 
(thanks to Fred's strong recommendation on the guard with pod upgrade).  
After removing all the abandoned cabling and running and securing all 
the new cables (and getting the previously installed instrument cables 
OUT OF THE BILGE!), it was all plug and play!  The whole system just 
fired up (ok ok, Fred's consultation and diagram was a HUGE help!).  I 
even ended up getting an autopilot on sale but, I have yet to install 
that. Again the hard part here is having to build an anchor point for 
the linear drive.  My guess it will plug in and play as easily as 
everything else.  I guess if you look at all the electronics as one 
networked system it helps get past the proprietary pain.  if all those 
displays came in the same box you'd pick one and be done with it!  Of 
course, that makes it very expensive and labor intensive to upgrade if 
you decide to go to another manufacturer. I guess my view is that, all 
these systems have been around a long time and they work really well.  
Being stuck with raymarine (or any other brand) is what it is.  
Hopefully, having the cabling done, upgrading with new raymarine will be 
easier and less costly and less labor intensive than this whole system 
upgrade was.  I have to say, all the matching instruments look pretty 
impressive! and they work!!


Who knows, I may be on to a new boat by the time I need an instrument 
upgrade!  I seem to have a 4 year itch...  I get a boat, fix it all up 
over a few seasons, sell it at a loss and buy a bigger, more expensive 
boat...  it's really great business model, don't you think?


Danny

On 9/21/2016 7:44 AM, John McKay via CnC-List wrote:

As a follow up, I do like the EV100.

I installed, did the one or two circles and it works. The calibration 
was a breeze!


J



On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:03 PM, G Collins via CnC-List 
 wrote:



You Ray haters kill me... just kidding!  But sometimes it pays to read
the manual before you buy, and they are all available online these days.

That Garmin thing is a cool solution, I like it.  The Navico (B)
version doesn't seem to be available anywhere, so that may have been a
possible route to firmware updates but no longer...

I guess my conclusion early on was to get a MDF that goes with the big
electronics on the boat, so my a75 MDF can update my EV200 autopilot.
And IMHO it makes sense to have the same brand of anyway, so that you
are sure they will work together as best they can.  My wind/speed/depth
system, since it is B, is essentially orphaned. I'm not so concerned
with that.  And I am quite happy with my Raymarine gear, whereas I've
had two Triton displays malfunction on me in the same 3 seasons.

As to why you can't update one companies gear from another companies
MDF, I can't see any company signing up for that - say I update my B
firmware over my Ray MDF, and next thing my Triton displays are bricks -
who do I call to get it resolved? That would not be a fun day.

Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C 35-III #11

On 2016-09-20 9:58 AM, Pete Shelquist via CnC-List wrote:
> You raymarine guys kill me.  Defend it to the end and drag others down
> when it's obvious that Ray falls short. I've been saying it for years:
> friends don't let friends buy raymarine.
>
> Dave/others; Per Garmin FAQ, Here's the solution if/when you decide to
> leave the raymarine dark side :
>
>


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Contributions are greatly appreciated!





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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

Multi Function Display  (combined chartplotter, GPS, all that stuff)

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of dwight
veinot via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 8:33 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: dwight veinot <dwight...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot
business!

Dumb question maybe but what does MFD stand for?
Dwight Veinot
C 35 MKII, Alianna
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
d.ve...@bellaliant.net



On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 9:24 PM, Dave S via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:
> Now sells only MFDs with optional add-ons.  Like autopilots, VHF 
> radios, standalone instruments...
>
> S, after a some very cordial discussion with Raymarine this week, 
> I learned it is impossible to update the firmware on any of the 
> thousands of dollars of brand new stuff on Windstar, unless I also buy a
Raymarine MFD.
>
> This is an interesting throwback strategy in this app/software/digital 
> age, kinda like finding out after the fact that you need to buy a $2000
Macbook
> Air to update your iphone.   (Let em try that on a millenial!)
>
> To be fair, they were quite cordial and genuinely responsive, but 
> their suggestions that I
> -  borrow a MFD from a friend,
> -  disassemble my boat and ship the bits to them when they issue an 
> update,
> -  -  hire one of their 'best in the business' techs to visit,
> -   or just buy one of their excellent MFDs!
> left me a bit cold.  Now I'm REALLY not gonna buy one.
>
> I did some cursory checking, and other vendors don't take this approach.
>
> Caveat emptor.
>
> Dave
>
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>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If 
> you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All 
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>

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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Dumb question maybe but what does MFD stand for?
Dwight Veinot
C 35 MKII, Alianna
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
d.ve...@bellaliant.net



On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 9:24 PM, Dave S via CnC-List
 wrote:
> Now sells only MFDs with optional add-ons.  Like autopilots, VHF radios,
> standalone instruments...
>
> S, after a some very cordial discussion with Raymarine this week, I
> learned it is impossible to update the firmware on any of the thousands of
> dollars of brand new stuff on Windstar, unless I also buy a Raymarine MFD.
>
> This is an interesting throwback strategy in this app/software/digital age,
> kinda like finding out after the fact that you need to buy a $2000 Macbook
> Air to update your iphone.   (Let em try that on a millenial!)
>
> To be fair, they were quite cordial and genuinely responsive, but their
> suggestions that I
> -  borrow a MFD from a friend,
> -  disassemble my boat and ship the bits to them when they issue an update,
> -  -  hire one of their 'best in the business' techs to visit,
> -   or just buy one of their excellent MFDs!
> left me a bit cold.  Now I'm REALLY not gonna buy one.
>
> I did some cursory checking, and other vendors don't take this approach.
>
> Caveat emptor.
>
> Dave
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions
> are greatly appreciated!
>

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[John McKay via CnC-List]

As a follow up, I do like the EV100.
I installed, did the one or two circles and it works. The calibration was a 
breeze!
J
 

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:03 PM, G Collins via CnC-List 
 wrote:
 

 You Ray haters kill me...  just kidding!  But sometimes it pays to read 
the manual before you buy, and they are all available online these days.

That Garmin thing is a cool solution, I like it.  The Navico (B) 
version doesn't seem to be available anywhere, so that may have been a 
possible route to firmware updates but no longer...

I guess my conclusion early on was to get a MDF that goes with the big 
electronics on the boat, so my a75 MDF can update my EV200 autopilot.  
And IMHO it makes sense to have the same brand of anyway, so that you 
are sure they will work together as best they can.  My wind/speed/depth 
system, since it is B, is essentially orphaned.  I'm not so concerned 
with that.  And I am quite happy with my Raymarine gear, whereas I've 
had two Triton displays malfunction on me in the same 3 seasons.

As to why you can't update one companies gear from another companies 
MDF, I can't see any company signing up for that - say I update my B 
firmware over my Ray MDF, and next thing my Triton displays are bricks - 
who do I call to get it resolved? That would not be a fun day.

Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C 35-III #11

On 2016-09-20 9:58 AM, Pete Shelquist via CnC-List wrote:
> You raymarine guys kill me.  Defend it to the end and drag others down 
> when it's obvious that Ray falls short. I've been saying it for years: 
> friends don't let friends buy raymarine.
>
> Dave/others; Per Garmin FAQ, Here's the solution if/when you decide to 
> leave the raymarine dark side :
>
>


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!


   ___

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Daniel Sheer via CnC-List]

When I bought Pegathy, I bought the cheapest Garmin chartplotter. Once you've 
sailed with a chartplotter, you never want to be without. I also have Marine 
Navigator on my smartphone and both the Garmin app (accesses the Active Captain 
data base, a pretty useful piece) and Open GL navigator, both on the boat 
laptop. The next year, I bought the Garmin 10 and mast top and depth finder 
package and added them - same manufacturer, no problem. Changing settings is a 
non-issue, along with updates. The Garmin products work. There are many things 
about them I'm not particularly fond of - one is that the operation is NOT 
intuitive - but they work. The only thing that's failed is the depth transducer 
- an AirMar.

Two years later I bought a Lowrance VHF with AIS on NMEA 2000. The Lowrance 
needs the gps signal from the chartplotter. The original wouldn't read the 
network. Nor would the second. But, they sent a third, and it just plugged in 
and worked, sending AIS target locations to the chartplotter - a wonderful 
thing when sailing at night on the Chesapeake. So, at least some 
interoperability in the NMEA 2000 world works.

When I replace Walter, my Autohelm 3000, I'll likely go Garmin so I can be sure 
it will work. I will do my damndest to ensure that the Garmin Autohelm will 
talk to a tablet. I don't know what I'll do if it won't. Probably find another 
brand that will. I expect that when the Garmin chartplotter goes, or I decide I 
really, really need a bigger screen, I'll go with a tablet mounted at the helm. 
I expect that by that time the standard will work well across all sensors - 
including driver updates. 

Dem's my 2 cents.
Dan SheerPegathy, LF38Rock Creek off the Patapsco



  From: "cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com>
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 10:49 AM
 Subject: CnC-List Digest, Vol 128, Issue 86
   
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than "Re: Contents of CnC-List digest..."


Today's Topics:

  1. Re:  Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and (Dave S)
  2. Re:  Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot
      business (Dreuge)
  3. Re:  Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and (David)
  4. Re:  Repainting Waterline Stripe... (Dave Godwin)
  5. Re:  Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot
      business! (RANDY)


--

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 10:17:18 -0400
From: Dave S <syerd...@gmail.com>
To: "C Stus List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
Message-ID:
    <cad7ywjmsvgkvbehvzqdprlbdq9bjyfwneg2ekcehscvsdkr...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Pete - patience man, I'm a 53 year old luddite!

The realization of how all this "fits" is just dawning on me, and many of
the writings I have read on the subject are now making much more sense.
Thanks for the Garmin info, they too have an n2k updater it seems.  They
don't promote these aggressively , but at least they are available.

For the record, the raymarine guys I was connected with were really
helpful, but the situation is what it is. Also for the record, I have zero
brand loyalty/axe to grind for/with anyone.

Had I known then what I know now, I'd have (dispassionately) chosen another
brand.(s)    I do think it is something important to consider when
weighting options today.

Dave



PDate: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 12:58:42 + (UTC)
From: Pete Shelquist <pete.shelqu...@comcast.net>
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com,  <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
        autopilot business!
Message-ID:
        <AB669CE7FAF85C4C.94AEB411-F666-4D3B-942E-F526F20DBBD4@
mail.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

You raymarine guys kill me. ?Defend it to the end and drag others down when
it's obvious that Ray falls short. I've been saying it for years: friends
don't let friends buy raymarine.?
Dave/others; Per Garmin FAQ, Here's the solution if/when you decide to
leave the raymarine dark side :
"The easiest way to update the device is to purchase a NMEA 2000 Network
Updater and attach it to the NMEA 2000 network that the device is connected
to. The updater will add an SD card slot to the NMEA 2000 network which
will allow and update to be sent to the device. A blank SD card with at
least 300MB up to 2GB of space is also required.
-- next part -

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Stevan Plavsa via CnC-List]

Patrick, I have to chime in for Apple here - and not speaking to the iPhone
7 because I haven't been paying attention and I'm an Android guy, but there
is no "hardware lock in" with Apple. "Ecosystem" lock in, absolutely. You
get the iPhone so you're locked to their App store - yes. This is also true
for Android. There are benefits and there are drawbacks, but hardware lock
in - no. They use all the same ports everyone else uses these days. I'm a
Windows, Linux and Mac guy ... Someone wants to take my macbook? - from my
cold dead hands!

The XPS laptops and that come close in industrial design these days - they
have that nice edge display. But it's still Windows and well, Windows was
my first, but it's a total kludge fest compared to the UI in OSX. I use
both, every day and once upon a time, back in the OS9 days, I made fun of
the mac guys.

Steve
Suhana, C 32
Toronto


On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Patrick Davin via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I agree with you. If I had known Raymarine's love of proprietary,
> lock-you-in, charge-as-much-as-they-please techniques, I probably wouldn't
> have bought an i70 and wind instrument.  (It's pretty astounding how much
> they charge per foot for a backbone cable, and even the little plastic caps
> you use to terminate it)
>
> I can see how for some people that aspect isn't that important though,
> there are other things to consider like hardware quality and reliability.
>
> Being in the software industry it was just amazing to see the effort
> Raymarine has made to maintain incompatibility / closed systems. In
> software if you have a common transfer protocol that companies are building
> their own proprietary things on top of, it's either intentional or
> incompetence. Raymarine doesn't seem incompetent so I have to conclude it's
> intentional.
>
> Apple is actually a good example of a software company that uses similar
> proprietary lock-in techniques to create a closed system. Just take for
> example their proprietary charging port and the latest iphone decision to
> remove an open standard (audio jack) in favor of a closed standard (Apple
> charging port with proprietary audio jack adapter).
>
> People that go Apple are deciding that paying a premium for equivalent
> hardware is worth it for whatever benefits they believe they get out of it
> (ex, better UX design?). With Apple it's not as bad though because they at
> least try to make things easier for the consumer.
>
> The good news is I think software updates to an i70 are much less
> important than updates to a chartplotter. Wind algorithms don't change that
> often, and I'm basically happy with the UI. Charts and charting UI do
> change often. My three Android devices cost less than a Raymarine MFD and
> provide triple redundancy.
>
> -Patrick
> S/V Violet Hour, Seattle, WA
> C LF38
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 9:00 AM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> -- Forwarded message ------
>> From: Dave S <syerd...@gmail.com>
>> To: "C Stus List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>> Cc:
>> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:47:59 -0400
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
>> Joel,
>>
>> That's pretty much the nut of it, there is not the same critical mass or
>> informed user base as with  mainstream mobile computing, (and this IS
>> mobile computing) and today, the tradeoff exists between the benefits (many
>> contrived) of single-brand solutions, and the benefits of a more open
>> approach.  Still, they have to strategize about their new competition - a
>> $50, full featured chartplotter,   (yes, in a relatively fragile device) on
>> technologies with very short (relatively) life cycles and blistering
>> innovation rates.   Amazing really.
>>
>> I dealt with the fragility issues by buying a lifeproof case and RAM
>> mount.  Pretty rugged stuff, and fine for my application - summer sailing
>> on Lake Ontario.
>>
>> I differ a bit on the software upgrade opinion - as with cars this could
>> be a safety and liability issue for the manufacturers.   If they make it
>> unreasonably difficult, they have a problem.  something else for them to
>> grapple with.
>>
>> Other than chartplotters, tablet based Apps are thin on the ground so
>> far, partly because of the small market, partly the "closed shop" of the
>> major players, and - somewhat related- partly because "open" wireless N2K
>> is in its infancy, though this is changing.  The next few years will be
>> interesting!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[G Collins via CnC-List]

You Ray haters kill me...   just kidding!  But sometimes it pays to read 
the manual before you buy, and they are all available online these days.

That Garmin thing is a cool solution, I like it.  The Navico (B) 
version doesn't seem to be available anywhere, so that may have been a 
possible route to firmware updates but no longer...

I guess my conclusion early on was to get a MDF that goes with the big 
electronics on the boat, so my a75 MDF can update my EV200 autopilot.  
And IMHO it makes sense to have the same brand of anyway, so that you 
are sure they will work together as best they can.  My wind/speed/depth 
system, since it is B, is essentially orphaned.  I'm not so concerned 
with that.  And I am quite happy with my Raymarine gear, whereas I've 
had two Triton displays malfunction on me in the same 3 seasons.

As to why you can't update one companies gear from another companies 
MDF, I can't see any company signing up for that - say I update my B 
firmware over my Ray MDF, and next thing my Triton displays are bricks - 
who do I call to get it resolved? That would not be a fun day.

Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C 35-III #11

On 2016-09-20 9:58 AM, Pete Shelquist via CnC-List wrote:
> You raymarine guys kill me.  Defend it to the end and drag others down 
> when it's obvious that Ray falls short. I've been saying it for years: 
> friends don't let friends buy raymarine.
>
> Dave/others; Per Garmin FAQ, Here's the solution if/when you decide to 
> leave the raymarine dark side :
>
>


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I agree with you. If I had known Raymarine's love of proprietary,
lock-you-in, charge-as-much-as-they-please techniques, I probably wouldn't
have bought an i70 and wind instrument.  (It's pretty astounding how much
they charge per foot for a backbone cable, and even the little plastic caps
you use to terminate it)

I can see how for some people that aspect isn't that important though,
there are other things to consider like hardware quality and reliability.

Being in the software industry it was just amazing to see the effort
Raymarine has made to maintain incompatibility / closed systems. In
software if you have a common transfer protocol that companies are building
their own proprietary things on top of, it's either intentional or
incompetence. Raymarine doesn't seem incompetent so I have to conclude it's
intentional.

Apple is actually a good example of a software company that uses similar
proprietary lock-in techniques to create a closed system. Just take for
example their proprietary charging port and the latest iphone decision to
remove an open standard (audio jack) in favor of a closed standard (Apple
charging port with proprietary audio jack adapter).

People that go Apple are deciding that paying a premium for equivalent
hardware is worth it for whatever benefits they believe they get out of it
(ex, better UX design?). With Apple it's not as bad though because they at
least try to make things easier for the consumer.

The good news is I think software updates to an i70 are much less important
than updates to a chartplotter. Wind algorithms don't change that often,
and I'm basically happy with the UI. Charts and charting UI do change
often. My three Android devices cost less than a Raymarine MFD and provide
triple redundancy.

-Patrick
S/V Violet Hour, Seattle, WA
C LF38

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 9:00 AM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Dave S <syerd...@gmail.com>
> To: "C Stus List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:47:59 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
> Joel,
>
> That's pretty much the nut of it, there is not the same critical mass or
> informed user base as with  mainstream mobile computing, (and this IS
> mobile computing) and today, the tradeoff exists between the benefits (many
> contrived) of single-brand solutions, and the benefits of a more open
> approach.  Still, they have to strategize about their new competition - a
> $50, full featured chartplotter,   (yes, in a relatively fragile device) on
> technologies with very short (relatively) life cycles and blistering
> innovation rates.   Amazing really.
>
> I dealt with the fragility issues by buying a lifeproof case and RAM
> mount.  Pretty rugged stuff, and fine for my application - summer sailing
> on Lake Ontario.
>
> I differ a bit on the software upgrade opinion - as with cars this could
> be a safety and liability issue for the manufacturers.   If they make it
> unreasonably difficult, they have a problem.  something else for them to
> grapple with.
>
> Other than chartplotters, tablet based Apps are thin on the ground so far,
> partly because of the small market, partly the "closed shop" of the major
> players, and - somewhat related- partly because "open" wireless N2K is in
> its infancy, though this is changing.  The next few years will be
> interesting!
>
> Dave
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Joel,

That's pretty much the nut of it, there is not the same critical mass or
informed user base as with  mainstream mobile computing, (and this IS
mobile computing) and today, the tradeoff exists between the benefits (many
contrived) of single-brand solutions, and the benefits of a more open
approach.  Still, they have to strategize about their new competition - a
$50, full featured chartplotter,   (yes, in a relatively fragile device) on
technologies with very short (relatively) life cycles and blistering
innovation rates.   Amazing really.

I dealt with the fragility issues by buying a lifeproof case and RAM
mount.  Pretty rugged stuff, and fine for my application - summer sailing
on Lake Ontario.

I differ a bit on the software upgrade opinion - as with cars this could be
a safety and liability issue for the manufacturers.   If they make it
unreasonably difficult, they have a problem.  something else for them to
grapple with.

Other than chartplotters, tablet based Apps are thin on the ground so far,
partly because of the small market, partly the "closed shop" of the major
players, and - somewhat related- partly because "open" wireless N2K is in
its infancy, though this is changing.  The next few years will be
interesting!

Dave



Message: 1
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 09:57:01 -0400
From: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com>
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
Message-ID:
<CAEL16P8EQQQpfWbX+tqoc1DoXssee1GVkfE5iJBy1tSa=4q...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dave,

Yes, the industry is changing, but it is such a niche market so that
development costs are spread over a small product run.  Signal K and other
protocols may make it easier to mix and match. However, everyone uses
proprietary NMEA sentences for their products.  Besides, no one says you
have to upgrade your software.

Ever try to upload an I app to the Apple store?  You can only do it on a
Mac!

Joel
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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[David via CnC-List]

So bottom line for those who do not want to spend too much time thinking on 
this...

Stick with one manufacturer throughout whether upgrading or buying anew.

Limiting but given the scope and decent reliability of product of the leading 
players not so bad?

(Raymarine by default and still happy)

David F. Risch
1981 40-2
(401) 419-4650 (cell)


Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 10:17:18 -0400
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
CC: syerd...@gmail.com


Pete - patience man, I'm a 53 year old luddite!   
The realization of how all this "fits" is just dawning on me, and many of the 
writings I have read on the subject are now making much more sense.   Thanks 
for the Garmin info, they too have an n2k updater it seems.   They don't 
promote these aggressively , but at least they are available.   
For the record, the raymarine guys I was connected with were really helpful, 
but the situation is what it is. Also for the record, I have zero brand 
loyalty/axe to grind for/with anyone.   
Had I known then what I know now, I'd have (dispassionately) chosen another 
brand.(s)I do think it is something important to consider when weighting 
options today.
Dave


PDate: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 12:58:42 + (UTC)
 From: Pete Shelquist <pete.shelqu...@comcast.net>
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com,  <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
 autopilot business!
 Message-ID:
 
<ab669ce7faf85c4c.94aeb411-f666-4d3b-942e-f526f20db...@mail.outlook.com>

 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 You raymarine guys kill me. ?Defend it to the end and drag others down when 
it's obvious that Ray falls short. I've been saying it for years: friends don't 
let friends buy raymarine.?
 Dave/others; Per Garmin FAQ, Here's the solution if/when you decide to leave 
the raymarine dark side :
 "The easiest way to update the device is to purchase a NMEA 2000 Network 
Updater and attach it to the NMEA 2000 network that the device is connected to. 
The updater will add an SD card slot to the NMEA 2000 network which will allow 
and update to be sent to the device. A blank SD card with at least 300MB up to 
2GB of space is also required.

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! ___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Mike I would feel the same way (about having an iPad floating around the 
cockpit) if I was critically dependent on the device for navigation while 
sailing on bigger waters than my little lake :) I'm sure there are solutions 
for waterproof-encasing an iPad and mounting it firmly in the cockpit etc. But 
you'd still have to keep it charged if sailing for long time periods, and what 
if a solar-powered bluetooth-enabled instrument failed and could no longer 
transmit, etc. I generally aspire to coastal cruising, and when I do that I 
will want proven ruggedized instrumentation. But for racing Grenadine around 
Chatfield Reservoir, the SailTimer products were very fitting - affordable and 
intriguing. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Mike via CnC-List Hoyt" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Mike Hoyt" <mike.h...@impgroup.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:11:21 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot 
business! 



Pete 



Have used ST60 speed/depth/wind on the last number of boats that we sailed on 
extensively. Robust instruments and easy to use. Only issue was the connectors 
on the back had to be replaced on the wire ends after a few years (annoyance). 
Used B for a bit with current boat when we bought it and really did not like 
them. Displays were starting to fail and absolutely no way to replace with 
newer model displays so built in obsolescence. Also very expensive. 



I won’t speak to the plotters, radars and other instruments but I have always 
liked these three standard sailing instruments. Our current i50/i60 series are 
also very nice but do not look to be built as ruggedly as the ST50 / ST60 
series. 



I am also not a fan of having an iPad floating around in the cockpit. Nav 
station yes, cockpit no. If I was to be dependent on a device such as an iPad 
and it got knocked around or overboard in rough weather that would at the very 
least be a distraction. Very nice for redundant system but I cannot see it 
being a primary system until it is made to the same rugged standards as 
existing instrumentation. 



My $0.02 



Mike 

Persistence 



Raymarine i50/i60 speed, depth, wind 

Raymarine wheel pilot 

Garmin GPSMAP 740 

Standard Horizon GX2200 with AIS display and ram mic 

Ramarine a65 

KVH Sailcomp 

Microsoft Surface with Navionics 




From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Pete 
Shelquist via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:59 AM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Pete Shelquist 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot 
business! 





You raymarine guys kill me. Defend it to the end and drag others down when it's 
obvious that Ray falls short. I've been saying it for years: friends don't let 
friends buy raymarine. 





Dave/others; Per Garmin FAQ, Here's the solution if/when you decide to leave 
the raymarine dark side : 





"The easiest way to update the device is to purchase a NMEA 2000 Network 
Updater and attach it to the NMEA 2000 network that the device is connected to. 
The updater will add an SD card slot to the NMEA 2000 network which will allow 
and update to be sent to the device. A blank SD card with at least 300MB up to 
2GB of space is also required. 





To create the update SD card, please follow these instructions: 





Download the latest update from the Marine Software Update Page to your desktop 


Double-click the file on the desktop 


When the window titled Marine Product Software Update appears, click the Next 
button 


Choose the drive letter that is assigned to the SD card reader 


Click the Next button 


Once the update is completed, click the Finish button 


Take the SD card and the NMEA 2000 Network Updater to the boat. To connect the 
NMEA 2000 Network Updater into the NMEA 2000 network, please follow these 
instructions: 





Connect the NMEA 2000 Network Updater's cable to the T-Connector it came with 


Disconnect two T-Connectors in the NMEA 2000 network on the boat 


Connect the Network Updater's T-Connector to both of the disconnected 
T-Connectors from step 2 


To update the NMEA 2000 network, power on the NMEA 2000 network and all 
accessories and insert the SD card into the NMEA 2000 Network Updater. 





To know when the update is complete, please review the color of the LED on the 
NMEA 2000 Network Updater: 





Red - Error, no card inserted, or no update on card 


Orange - Update in progress 


Green - Update completed successfully 


Once the update is complete, the SD card can be removed from the Updater and 
all Garmin NMEA 2000 connected devices and accessories will be up to date." 





Boom. 








Get Outlook for iOS 









On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 7:40 AM -0500, "Frederick G Street via CnC-List" < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: 


I 

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Pete - patience man, I'm a 53 year old luddite!

The realization of how all this "fits" is just dawning on me, and many of
the writings I have read on the subject are now making much more sense.
Thanks for the Garmin info, they too have an n2k updater it seems.   They
don't promote these aggressively , but at least they are available.

For the record, the raymarine guys I was connected with were really
helpful, but the situation is what it is. Also for the record, I have zero
brand loyalty/axe to grind for/with anyone.

Had I known then what I know now, I'd have (dispassionately) chosen another
brand.(s)I do think it is something important to consider when
weighting options today.

Dave



PDate: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 12:58:42 + (UTC)
From: Pete Shelquist <pete.shelqu...@comcast.net>
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com,  <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
autopilot business!
Message-ID:
<AB669CE7FAF85C4C.94AEB411-F666-4D3B-942E-F526F20DBBD4@
mail.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

You raymarine guys kill me. ?Defend it to the end and drag others down when
it's obvious that Ray falls short. I've been saying it for years: friends
don't let friends buy raymarine.?
Dave/others; Per Garmin FAQ, Here's the solution if/when you decide to
leave the raymarine dark side :
"The easiest way to update the device is to purchase a NMEA 2000 Network
Updater and attach it to the NMEA 2000 network that the device is connected
to. The updater will add an SD card slot to the NMEA 2000 network which
will allow and update to be sent to the device. A blank SD card with at
least 300MB up to 2GB of space is also required.
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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

Raymarine is not so bad.   

When the day comes that you buy a device, which is not from Raymarine, but you 
are required to use a Raymarine MFD to upgrade the software or even use the 
device, then you’ll feel like a Mac(or Linux) user.  As a non-Microsoft 
software user, I feel your pain.But after many years to navigating my C 
29 via laptop(my dell hackintosh), iPad, and then iPhone, I finally purchased a 
Raymarine e7D chart plotter for my LF38, and I have to say, I like the kool-aid 
so far.  

-
Paul E.
1981 C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose
Carrabelle, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Pete

Have used ST60 speed/depth/wind on the last number of boats that we sailed on 
extensively.  Robust instruments and easy to use.  Only issue was the 
connectors on the back had to be replaced on the wire ends after a few years 
(annoyance).  Used B for a bit with current boat when we bought it and really 
did not like them.  Displays were starting to fail and absolutely no way to 
replace with newer model displays so built in obsolescence.  Also very 
expensive.

I won’t speak to the plotters, radars and other instruments but I have always 
liked these three standard sailing instruments.  Our current i50/i60 series are 
also very nice but do not look to be built as ruggedly as the ST50 / ST60 
series.

I am also not a fan of having an iPad floating around in the cockpit.  Nav 
station yes, cockpit no.  If I was to be dependent on a device such as an iPad 
and it got knocked around or overboard in rough weather that would at the very 
least be a distraction.  Very nice for redundant system but I cannot see it 
being a primary system until it is made to the same rugged standards as 
existing instrumentation.

My $0.02

Mike
Persistence

Raymarine i50/i60 speed, depth, wind
Raymarine wheel pilot
Garmin GPSMAP 740
Standard Horizon GX2200 with AIS display and ram mic
Ramarine a65
KVH Sailcomp
Microsoft Surface with Navionics

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Pete 
Shelquist via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:59 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Pete Shelquist
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot 
business!

You raymarine guys kill me.  Defend it to the end and drag others down when 
it's obvious that Ray falls short. I've been saying it for years: friends don't 
let friends buy raymarine.

Dave/others; Per Garmin FAQ, Here's the solution if/when you decide to leave 
the raymarine dark side :

"The easiest way to update the device is to purchase a NMEA 2000 Network 
Updater and attach it to the NMEA 2000 network that the device is connected to. 
The updater will add an SD card slot to the NMEA 2000 network which will allow 
and update to be sent to the device. A blank SD card with at least 300MB up to 
2GB of space is also required.

To create the update SD card, please follow these instructions:

Download the latest update from the Marine Software Update Page to your desktop
Double-click the file on the desktop
When the window titled Marine Product Software Update appears, click the Next 
button
Choose the drive letter that is assigned to the SD card reader
Click the Next button
Once the update is completed, click the Finish button
Take the SD card and the NMEA 2000 Network Updater to the boat. To connect the 
NMEA 2000 Network Updater into the NMEA 2000 network, please follow these 
instructions:

Connect the NMEA 2000 Network Updater's cable to the T-Connector it came with
Disconnect two T-Connectors in the NMEA 2000 network on the boat
Connect the Network Updater's T-Connector to both of the disconnected 
T-Connectors from step 2
To update the NMEA 2000 network, power on the NMEA 2000 network and all 
accessories and insert the SD card into the NMEA 2000 Network Updater.

To know when the update is complete, please review the color of the LED on the 
NMEA 2000 Network Updater:

Red - Error, no card inserted, or no update on card
Orange - Update in progress
Green - Update completed successfully
Once the update is complete, the SD card can be removed from the Updater and 
all Garmin NMEA 2000 connected devices and accessories will be up to date."

Boom.


Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>



On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 7:40 AM -0500, "Frederick G Street via CnC-List" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
I think Dave’s gripe had more to do with upgrading things other than the MFD; 
things like instruments and autopilots.  And having to do those through an MFD 
from the same manufacturer.

I don’t think I’d want to be able to upgrade a Raymarine autopilot through a 
Garmin MFD; Garmin might just sabotage the process…   :^)

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

On Sep 20, 2016, at 7:26 AM, Paul Fountain via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

My ray eS7 does the same ……

Paul Fountain
Perception II
1985 C 33-II k/cb
Port Credit Yacht Club

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Hoyt, Mike 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Hoyt, Mike <mike.h...@impgroup.com<mailto:mike.h...@impgroup.com>>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot 
business!

My Garmin GPSMap 740 plotter uses a SD Card to update firmware after 
downloading the file to the SD card from a computer which in 

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Dave,

Yes, the industry is changing, but it is such a niche market so that
development costs are spread over a small product run.  Signal K and other
protocols may make it easier to mix and match. However, everyone uses
proprietary NMEA sentences for their products.  Besides, no one says you
have to upgrade your software.

Ever try to upload an I app to the Apple store?  You can only do it on a
Mac!

Joel

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 9:46 AM, Dave S via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:

> OK, my cheeky tabloid headline was more provocative than I expected!
>
> This locked down approach is indeed the historic norm, but today it is not
> industry-wide, and it is changing fast.  Another example of disruptive
> technologies reshaping an industry, and the industry trying to (or trying
> not to) adapt..  
> For my part, I am far more fascinated than I am angry, its interesting,
> and a moment in time in an industry.
>
> Will check Furuno later, (might have been ICOM), I did this quickly and
> did not save what I found.   Navico I already posted - needs a cable,
> software, PC, and Garmin looks like it needs a chartplotter.
>
> Compared to my '80s B hunter stuff, my Raymarine i70 multifunction
> instrument is amazing.   I'm starting to realize though, that it
> is simply a dumbed-down ruggedized ipod touch with a senior-friendly user
> interface that can run only one app.   Forever.   ;-)Ooops, provocative
> again!
>
> All playfulness and side debates aside, if the new normal is that software
> updates are part of ownership, hardware ownership should not come with
> undisclosed hidden costs.
>
> Dave
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 07:05:37 -0500
> From: Frederick G Street <f...@postaudio.net>
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
> autopilot business!
> Message-ID: <329cad61-d4a1-44ec-9b6e-c43be1b65...@postaudio.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dave and all: what ?announcement? is this, exactly?  I still get
> dealer-only emails from Raymarine, and I haven?t received any announcements
> like the one you reference.  And as Graham mentioned, Raymarine is NOT the
> only one who uses their MFDs to update other system software.  Simrad, B
> and others do exactly the same thing.
>
> Can anyone on the list with a Garmin autopilot update its software with an
> SD card, without having a Garmin MFD on the network?  How about upgrading
> your Furuno instruments?
>
> Getting angry about this doesn?t make much sense to me.  It?s
> industry-wide.
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
>
> > On Sep 20, 2016, at 12:44 AM, RANDY via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Given Raymarine's announcement, maybe I made a lucky choice. :)
>
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/
> attachments/20160920/45e51b60/attachment-0001.html>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
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Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and

[Dave S via CnC-List]

OK, my cheeky tabloid headline was more provocative than I expected!

This locked down approach is indeed the historic norm, but today it is not
industry-wide, and it is changing fast.  Another example of disruptive
technologies reshaping an industry, and the industry trying to (or trying
not to) adapt..  
For my part, I am far more fascinated than I am angry, its interesting, and
a moment in time in an industry.

Will check Furuno later, (might have been ICOM), I did this quickly and did
not save what I found.   Navico I already posted - needs a cable, software,
PC, and Garmin looks like it needs a chartplotter.

Compared to my '80s B hunter stuff, my Raymarine i70 multifunction
instrument is amazing.   I'm starting to realize though, that it
is simply a dumbed-down ruggedized ipod touch with a senior-friendly user
interface that can run only one app.   Forever.   ;-)Ooops, provocative
again!

All playfulness and side debates aside, if the new normal is that software
updates are part of ownership, hardware ownership should not come with
undisclosed hidden costs.

Dave

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 07:05:37 -0500
From: Frederick G Street <f...@postaudio.net>
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
autopilot business!
Message-ID: <329cad61-d4a1-44ec-9b6e-c43be1b65...@postaudio.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dave and all: what ?announcement? is this, exactly?  I still get
dealer-only emails from Raymarine, and I haven?t received any announcements
like the one you reference.  And as Graham mentioned, Raymarine is NOT the
only one who uses their MFDs to update other system software.  Simrad, B
and others do exactly the same thing.

Can anyone on the list with a Garmin autopilot update its software with an
SD card, without having a Garmin MFD on the network?  How about upgrading
your Furuno instruments?

Getting angry about this doesn?t make much sense to me.  It?s industry-wide.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On Sep 20, 2016, at 12:44 AM, RANDY via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:
>
> Given Raymarine's announcement, maybe I made a lucky choice. :)

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.
com/attachments/20160920/45e51b60/attachment-0001.html>
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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

This is absolutely nothing new at all!
I was a Raytheon dealer back in the day and they were always pulling crap like 
this. Their XX radar series was supposed to transfer a target from radar to 
chart plotter (back when this was a brand new idea). I sold a radar and plotter 
with this as a selling point. It did not work. We sent it back and after a 
month it was returned to us and now the feature was working great.
Fast forward a few months and the boat is hit by lightning. We get a new radar 
and plotter and guess what – waypoints no workee ☹ So I call Raytheon and the 
fix was a custom EPROM for JUST OUR UNIT, they only made one, the change was 
not rolled out to production yet, and the guy that did it was no longer working 
there! The frustrating thing is they make some really innovative stuff now and 
there really is no equivalent to their current wheelpilot. Despite all these 
shenanigans I don’t see an alternative except to keep on repairing my old 1980s 
AH 4000 unit. I think I have 3 drives and 2 course computers right now to swap 
parts around with, but even that won’t last forever. I will talk to my local 
Raytheon dealer, I would think they would be willing to have a shop MFD to 
update customer gear as a service and I would expect it for free if I bought it 
from them recently.
I know back in the day I had loaner instruments and SSBs I loaned out for free 
while the customers gear was sent back for warranty. If they ran off with it, I 
just kept theirs for the next loaner ☺
Joe
Coquina

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[Pete Shelquist via CnC-List]

You raymarine guys kill me.  Defend it to the end and drag others down when 
it's obvious that Ray falls short. I've been saying it for years: friends don't 
let friends buy raymarine. 
Dave/others; Per Garmin FAQ, Here's the solution if/when you decide to leave 
the raymarine dark side :
"The easiest way to update the device is to purchase a NMEA 2000 Network 
Updater and attach it to the NMEA 2000 network that the device is connected to. 
The updater will add an SD card slot to the NMEA 2000 network which will allow 
and update to be sent to the device. A blank SD card with at least 300MB up to 
2GB of space is also required.
To create the update SD card, please follow these instructions:
Download the latest update from the Marine Software Update Page to your 
desktopDouble-click the file on the desktopWhen the window titled Marine 
Product Software Update appears, click the Next buttonChoose the drive letter 
that is assigned to the SD card readerClick the Next buttonOnce the update is 
completed, click the Finish buttonTake the SD card and the NMEA 2000 Network 
Updater to the boat. To connect the NMEA 2000 Network Updater into the NMEA 
2000 network, please follow these instructions:
Connect the NMEA 2000 Network Updater's cable to the T-Connector it came 
withDisconnect two T-Connectors in the NMEA 2000 network on the boatConnect the 
Network Updater's T-Connector to both of the disconnected T-Connectors from 
step 2To update the NMEA 2000 network, power on the NMEA 2000 network and all 
accessories and insert the SD card into the NMEA 2000 Network Updater.
To know when the update is complete, please review the color of the LED on the 
NMEA 2000 Network Updater:
Red - Error, no card inserted, or no update on cardOrange - Update in 
progressGreen - Update completed successfullyOnce the update is complete, the 
SD card can be removed from the Updater and all Garmin NMEA 2000 connected 
devices and accessories will be up to date."
Boom. 


Get Outlook for iOS




On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 7:40 AM -0500, "Frederick G Street via CnC-List" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:










I think Dave’s gripe had more to do with upgrading things other than the MFD; 
things like instruments and autopilots.  And having to do those through an MFD 
from the same manufacturer.
I don’t think I’d want to be able to upgrade a Raymarine autopilot through a 
Garmin MFD; Garmin might just sabotage the process…   :^)


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI


On Sep 20, 2016, at 7:26 AM, Paul Fountain via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
wrote:
My ray eS7 does the same …… Paul FountainPerception II1985 C 33-II k/cbPort 
Credit Yacht Club From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On 
Behalf Of Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Hoyt, Mike <mike.h...@impgroup.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot 
business! My Garmin GPSMap 740 plotter uses a SD Card to update firmware after 
downloading the file to the SD card from a computer which in turn gets the file 
from the internet. MikePersistenceHalifax, NS





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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

I think Dave’s gripe had more to do with upgrading things other than the MFD; 
things like instruments and autopilots.  And having to do those through an MFD 
from the same manufacturer.

I don’t think I’d want to be able to upgrade a Raymarine autopilot through a 
Garmin MFD; Garmin might just sabotage the process…   :^)

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On Sep 20, 2016, at 7:26 AM, Paul Fountain via CnC-List 
> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> 
> My ray eS7 does the same …… <>
>  
> Paul Fountain
> Perception II
> 1985 C 33-II k/cb
> Port Credit Yacht Club
>  
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>] On Behalf Of Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:23 AM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc: Hoyt, Mike <mike.h...@impgroup.com <mailto:mike.h...@impgroup.com>>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot 
> business!
>  
> My Garmin GPSMap 740 plotter uses a SD Card to update firmware after 
> downloading the file to the SD card from a computer which in turn gets the 
> file from the internet.
>  
> Mike
> Persistence
> Halifax, NS

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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[Paul Fountain via CnC-List]

My ray eS7 does the same ……

Paul Fountain
Perception II
1985 C 33-II k/cb
Port Credit Yacht Club

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Hoyt, Mike 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Hoyt, Mike <mike.h...@impgroup.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot 
business!

My Garmin GPSMap 740 plotter uses a SD Card to update firmware after 
downloading the file to the SD card from a computer which in turn gets the file 
from the internet.

Mike
Persistence
Halifax, NS

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dave S via 
CnC-List
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 11:06 PM
To: C Stus List; cnclistforw...@hotmail.com<mailto:cnclistforw...@hotmail.com>
Cc: Dave S
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot 
business!

LOL, OK, should not have implied ALL other vendors, but my cursory search found 
this this N2K to USB cable for your (?) B triton/navico/simrad.  Looks like 
its used in conjunction with a laptop and free dowloadable software.  You can 
also use a MFD,but are not forced to.

http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited.com/blog/?page_id=98
The Windows 8 software tool

http://www.bandg.com/de/Products/Triton-Display/Software-Upgrade-Tool/

I also checked ICOM, Furuno...
It did appear that Airmar required one of their weather stations as an 
interface to update their sensors,but I did not explore this,nor how other 
manufacturers update their Airmar-made sensors.

I'm sure there are situations where manufacturers attempt to promote a 
proprietary, closed-shop approach to updating but most of those i found did not.
Dave.
From: G Collins <cnclistforw...@hotmail.com<mailto:cnclistforw...@hotmail.com>>
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
autopilot business!
Message-ID:

<bn6pr14mb16342bbd0080c7410736edbad8...@bn6pr14mb1634.namprd14.prod.outlook.com<mailto:bn6pr14mb16342bbd0080c7410736edbad8...@bn6pr14mb1634.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Other vendors don't take this approach?  Sure they do.  I've got B Triton 
displays - can't do any updating on them without a B MFD.  Same is true with 
all that I'm aware of.  And I'd love to buy a Maretron ultrasonic tank level 
sender, it is N2K - but to calibrate it I also have to buy one of their 
displays, which I have no other use for.

Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C 35-III #11
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Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Dave and all: what “announcement” is this, exactly?  I still get dealer-only 
emails from Raymarine, and I haven’t received any announcements like the one 
you reference.  And as Graham mentioned, Raymarine is NOT the only one who uses 
their MFDs to update other system software.  Simrad, B and others do exactly 
the same thing.

Can anyone on the list with a Garmin autopilot update its software with an SD 
card, without having a Garmin MFD on the network?  How about upgrading your 
Furuno instruments?

Getting angry about this doesn’t make much sense to me.  It’s industry-wide.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On Sep 20, 2016, at 12:44 AM, RANDY via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Given Raymarine's announcement, maybe I made a lucky choice. :) 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business

[Dave S via CnC-List]

To be clear,  my cheeky post was my own announcement, not Raymarine's who
probably feel they are still in the autopilot/instrument business.   Randy,
I'm more or less where you are on this, and I am realizing that the casual,
recreational boating space is no different than many others, where apps,
and fast-moving technology on portable technologies are clearly the
future.  (not talking about a vendee globe racer or coastguard ship)

I suppose to many its obvious, but what had not fully dawned on me when I
bought this Raystuff was that today, unlike in the past, we are buying
software as much as hardware when we buy an autopilot, display, or anything
else.Your example nails it - the software does the job, the transducer
just provides the bits and bites, and has to be good enough not to break.
This frames the firmware (which should really be called an app most of the
time) update discussion very differently, and makes you think a bit
differently about the trajectory of the technology, and about Raymarine's
customer-bruising approach.

I agree with you on the future of this stuff.  Its interesting and it's
happening quickly.

More on my electronics here - stumbles, learnings, mistakes included.
http://cncwindstar.blogspot.ca/

Dave  33-2

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 05:44:58 + (UTC)
From: RANDY <randy.staff...@comcast.net>
To: cnc-list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
autopilot business!
Message-ID:
<1263700711.917947.1474350298433.javamail.zim...@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

So, I'm a neophyte compared to you guys when it comes to electronics and
instruments etc. But I wanted an inexpensive electronic wind instrument for
my boat this year, and chose the SailTimer Wind Instrument (
http://www.sailtimerwind.com ) over the basic Raymarine i40. Given
Raymarine's announcement, maybe I made a lucky choice. :) I chose the
SailTimer Wind Instrument because I liked the idea of a solar-powered
bluetooth-enabled (no wires) masthead vane sending data to an inexpensive
iOS app.

I was already familiar with the SailTimer app ( http://www.sailtimerapp.com
) from last year, and sold on its features - optimal tacking routes,
boat-specific (even sail-specific) learned polar diagrams, etc. But to be
most effective, the app needs real-time wind speed and direction
information, so I bought the instrument.

For the kind of sailing I do with my boat - club racing on a lake in
Colorado - it made the most economic sense to have a commodity device and
OS (iPad or iPhone) in the cockpit running an app from a potential
marketplace thereof, consuming an industry standard data stream over
bluetooth, instead of custom display hardware in the cockpit cabled to
sensors and running custom firmware / OS / application software. Who knows,
maybe the SailTimer approach is the way of the future.

I'm just now installing and really learning the whole setup - I ordered the
instrument in April and received it in August. So I'll write a more
thorough review later, once I've had some experience with the app and
instrument together. I'll be using the combined system for the first time
in the coming week (on Friday it's forecast to be blowing 20 gusting 30 at
my lake - woo-hoo!). But the instrument is compact and solid, and the
initial setup has been straightforward.

Best Regards,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30-1 #7
Ken Caryl, CO

- Original Message -

From: "John McKay via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: "John McKay" <jmckay...@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:36:48 PM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot
business!

I bought an EV100 autohelm this spring. A few weeks ago, I got an email
from Raymarine talking about a software update. I call their tech line
asking how I could get the update since the autohelm is stand alone. The
rest of my electronics are Garmin.

He said I was out of luck. I pointed out I could update my Garmin with an
SD card. He did not give a shit!

John on Enterprise
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[RANDY via CnC-List]

So, I'm a neophyte compared to you guys when it comes to electronics and 
instruments etc. But I wanted an inexpensive electronic wind instrument for my 
boat this year, and chose the SailTimer Wind Instrument ( 
http://www.sailtimerwind.com ) over the basic Raymarine i40. Given Raymarine's 
announcement, maybe I made a lucky choice. :) I chose the SailTimer Wind 
Instrument because I liked the idea of a solar-powered bluetooth-enabled (no 
wires) masthead vane sending data to an inexpensive iOS app. 

I was already familiar with the SailTimer app ( http://www.sailtimerapp.com ) 
from last year, and sold on its features - optimal tacking routes, 
boat-specific (even sail-specific) learned polar diagrams, etc. But to be most 
effective, the app needs real-time wind speed and direction information, so I 
bought the instrument. 

For the kind of sailing I do with my boat - club racing on a lake in Colorado - 
it made the most economic sense to have a commodity device and OS (iPad or 
iPhone) in the cockpit running an app from a potential marketplace thereof, 
consuming an industry standard data stream over bluetooth, instead of custom 
display hardware in the cockpit cabled to sensors and running custom firmware / 
OS / application software. Who knows, maybe the SailTimer approach is the way 
of the future. 

I'm just now installing and really learning the whole setup - I ordered the 
instrument in April and received it in August. So I'll write a more thorough 
review later, once I've had some experience with the app and instrument 
together. I'll be using the combined system for the first time in the coming 
week (on Friday it's forecast to be blowing 20 gusting 30 at my lake - 
woo-hoo!). But the instrument is compact and solid, and the initial setup has 
been straightforward. 

Best Regards, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "John McKay via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "John McKay" <jmckay...@yahoo.ca> 
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:36:48 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot 
business! 

I bought an EV100 autohelm this spring. A few weeks ago, I got an email from 
Raymarine talking about a software update. I call their tech line asking how I 
could get the update since the autohelm is stand alone. The rest of my 
electronics are Garmin. 

He said I was out of luck. I pointed out I could update my Garmin with an SD 
card. He did not give a shit! 

John on Enterprise 



On Monday, September 19, 2016 10:07 PM, Dave S via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: 


LOL, OK, should not have implied ALL other vendors, but my cursory search found 
this this N2K to USB cable for your (?) B triton/navico/simrad. Looks like 
its used in conjunction with a laptop and free dowloadable software. You can 
also use a MFD,but are not forced to. 

http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited.com/blog/?page_id=98 

The Windows 8 software tool 

http://www.bandg.com/de/Products/Triton-Display/Software-Upgrade-Tool/ 

I also checked ICOM, Furuno... 

It did appear that Airmar required one of their weather stations as an 
interface to update their sensors,but I did not explore this,nor how other 
manufacturers update their Airmar-made sensors. 

I'm sure there are situations where manufacturers attempt to promote a 
proprietary, closed-shop approach to updating but most of those i found did 
not. 

Dave. 

From: G Collins < cnclistforw...@hotmail.com > 
To: " cnc-list@cnc-list.com " < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and 
autopilot business! 
Message-ID: 
< BN6PR14MB16342BBD0080C7410736 EDBAD8F70@BN6PR14MB1634. 
namprd14.prod.outlook.com > 

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" 

Other vendors don't take this approach? Sure they do. I've got B Triton 
displays - can't do any updating on them without a B MFD. Same is true with 
all that I'm aware of. And I'd love to buy a Maretron ultrasonic tank level 
sender, it is N2K - but to calibrate it I also have to buy one of their 
displays, which I have no other use for. 

Graham Collins 
Secret Plans 
C 35-III #11 

___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 



___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[John McKay via CnC-List]

I bought an EV100 autohelm this spring. A few weeks ago, I got an email from 
Raymarine talking about a software update. I call their tech line asking how I 
could get the update since the autohelm is stand alone. The rest of my 
electronics are Garmin.
He said I was out of luck. I pointed out I could update my Garmin with an SD 
card. He did not give a shit!
John on Enterprise
 

On Monday, September 19, 2016 10:07 PM, Dave S via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
 

 LOL, OK, should not have implied ALL other vendors, but my cursory search 
found this this N2K to USB cable for your (?) B triton/navico/simrad.  Looks 
like its used in conjunction with a laptop and free dowloadable software.  You 
can also use a MFD,but are not forced to. 

http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited.com/blog/?page_id=98 

The Windows 8 software tool

http://www.bandg.com/de/Products/Triton-Display/Software-Upgrade-Tool/

I also checked ICOM, Furuno...   

It did appear that Airmar required one of their weather stations as an 
interface to update their sensors,but I did not explore this,nor how other 
manufacturers update their Airmar-made sensors.  

I'm sure there are situations where manufacturers attempt to promote a 
proprietary, closed-shop approach to updating but most of those i found did not.

Dave.  

From: G Collins <cnclistforw...@hotmail.com>
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
        autopilot business!
Message-ID:
        

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Other vendors don't take this approach?  Sure they do.  I've got B Triton 
displays - can't do any updating on them without a B MFD.  Same is true with 
all that I'm aware of.  And I'd love to buy a Maretron ultrasonic tank level 
sender, it is N2K - but to calibrate it I also have to buy one of their 
displays, which I have no other use for.

Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C 35-III #11
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!


   ___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[Dave S via CnC-List]

LOL, OK, should not have implied ALL other vendors, but my cursory search
found this this N2K to USB cable for your (?) B triton/navico/simrad.
Looks like its used in conjunction with a laptop and free dowloadable
software.  You can also use a MFD,but are not forced to.

http://www.marine-electronics-unlimited.com/blog/?page_id=98

The Windows 8 software tool

http://www.bandg.com/de/Products/Triton-Display/Software-Upgrade-Tool/

I also checked ICOM, Furuno...

It did appear that Airmar required one of their weather stations as an
interface to update their sensors,but I did not explore this,nor how other
manufacturers update their Airmar-made sensors.

I'm sure there are situations where manufacturers attempt to promote a
proprietary, closed-shop approach to updating but most of those i found did
not.

Dave.

From: G Collins <cnclistforw...@hotmail.com>
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and
autopilot business!
Message-ID:
<BN6PR14MB16342BBD0080C7410736EDBAD8F70@BN6PR14MB1634.
namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Other vendors don't take this approach?  Sure they do.  I've got B Triton
displays - can't do any updating on them without a B MFD.  Same is true
with all that I'm aware of.  And I'd love to buy a Maretron ultrasonic tank
level sender, it is N2K - but to calibrate it I also have to buy one of
their displays, which I have no other use for.

Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C 35-III #11
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[G Collins via CnC-List]

Other vendors don't take this approach?  Sure they do.  I've got B Triton 
displays - can't do any updating on them without a B MFD.  Same is true with 
all that I'm aware of.  And I'd love to buy a Maretron ultrasonic tank level 
sender, it is N2K - but to calibrate it I also have to buy one of their 
displays, which I have no other use for.

Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C 35-III #11

On 2016-09-19 9:24 PM, Dave S via CnC-List wrote:
Now sells only MFDs with optional add-ons.  Like autopilots, VHF radios, 
standalone instruments...

S, after a some very cordial discussion with Raymarine this week, I learned 
it is impossible to update the firmware on any of the thousands of dollars of 
brand new stuff on Windstar, unless I also buy a Raymarine MFD.

This is an interesting throwback strategy in this app/software/digital age, 
kinda like finding out after the fact that you need to buy a $2000 Macbook Air 
to update your iphone.   (Let em try that on a millenial!)

To be fair, they were quite cordial and genuinely responsive, but their 
suggestions that I
-  borrow a MFD from a friend,
-  disassemble my boat and ship the bits to them when they issue an update, -  
-  hire one of their 'best in the business' techs to visit,
-   or just buy one of their excellent MFDs!
left me a bit cold.  Now I'm REALLY not gonna buy one.

I did some cursory checking, and other vendors don't take this approach.

Caveat emptor.

Dave



___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Raymarine exits the instrument, vhf and autopilot business!

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Now sells only MFDs with optional add-ons.  Like autopilots, VHF radios,
standalone instruments...

S, after a some very cordial discussion with Raymarine this week, I
learned it is impossible to update the firmware on any of the thousands of
dollars of brand new stuff on Windstar, unless I also buy a Raymarine MFD.

This is an interesting throwback strategy in this app/software/digital age,
kinda like finding out after the fact that you need to buy a $2000 Macbook
Air to update your iphone.   (Let em try that on a millenial!)

To be fair, they were quite cordial and genuinely responsive, but their
suggestions that I
-  borrow a MFD from a friend,
-  disassemble my boat and ship the bits to them when they issue an update,
-  -  hire one of their 'best in the business' techs to visit,
-   or just buy one of their excellent MFDs!
left me a bit cold.  Now I'm REALLY not gonna buy one.

I did some cursory checking, and other vendors don't take this approach.

Caveat emptor.

Dave
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!