Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Right. I don't know what the Dock does when it gets full. When you've got more icons than can fit in a given space (vertical or horizontal). Do the icons shrink to make more room? start a second row? They shrink. I like mine on the right. Humans eyes scan better in the horizontal plane. Maybe that plays some small roll in why it's better to put the dock on the side. Unless, of course, it's better to put it on the bottom. It seems like you'd run out of space faster if your Dock is on the side, and I'm assuming a heavy user would tend to have more icons. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting Jordan jor17...@gmail.com: Right. I don't know what the Dock does when it gets full. When you've got more icons than can fit in a given space (vertical or horizontal). Do the icons shrink to make more room? start a second row? They shrink. I like mine on the right. Humans eyes scan better in the horizontal plane. Maybe that plays some small roll in why it's better to put the dock on the side. Unless, of course, it's better to put it on the bottom. Thank you! An actual answer. Of course, once you've scanned to the right to find the Dock, you have to scan vertically to find what you're looking for. (-: Tom. I tried it. The icons bounce a different direction. Big deal. The right click menu is the same. I see no difference. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 22, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Reid Katan wrote: Tom. I tried it. The icons bounce a different direction. Big deal. The right click menu is the same. I see no difference. Biased observer. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Anyone who doesn't back Tom's fascist OS view is biased. Get in line you dolts! On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:22 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Dec 22, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Reid Katan wrote: Tom. I tried it. The icons bounce a different direction. Big deal. The right click menu is the same. I see no difference. Biased observer. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting tjpa t...@tjpa.com: On Dec 22, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Reid Katan wrote: Tom. I tried it. The icons bounce a different direction. Big deal. The right click menu is the same. I see no difference. Biased observer. Do you treat your customers with such contempt? How do you even still have a business? I can see it now: Customer: Which page layout program would be best for me? Tom: Well if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting mike xha...@gmail.com: Anyone who doesn't back Tom's fascist OS view is biased. Get in line you dolts! I don't even care about OS. I'm not even asking about TaskBar. I just want to know what it is about putting the Dock on the side that works so much better. I'll never get an answer from Tom, I can see that already. Maybe when Betty gets around to it she can enlighten me (and anyone else that might wonder). BTW, notice that Jeff Wright finally got tired of Tom's shit. I haven't seen him around for a while. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting Reid Katan ka...@his.com: BTW, notice that Jeff Wright finally got tired of Tom's shit. I haven't seen him around for a while. Oops. That not supposed to be a command that everyone take note. Here's what it's *supposed* to say: BTW, *I* notice that Jeff Wright finally got tired of Tom's shit. I haven't seen him around for a while. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting db db...@att.net: But only a few saw any sense in what I was asking / saying... I got a whole lot of Mac indignation and we're too smart for such / how stupid are you to be wanting / asking for such. Not exactly an uplifting conversation for me Yeah, well, The List has a tendency to do that. )-: * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 7:10 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: Why not just check the check box that OS X provides to disable that function? Of course then there would be nothing to whine about! Eh, what box do I check that lets me to click the bottom or edges of the screen to cause the dock to appear or disappear? That was the function I was describing. Under OS X, I can either have the dock always be on-screen or I can have it disappear or reappear when I move the mouse pointer to the bottom or edges of the screen or move it away from the bottom or edges of the screen. I see no option in the dock preferences that provides for the dock to appear upon clicking at the bottom or edges of the screen. What made you think I was whining? I was simply describing something available under OS 9 that could be seen as working better than a similar arrangement in OS X. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 21, 2009, at 9:50 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: What made you think I was whining? I was simply describing something available under OS 9 that could be seen as working better than a similar arrangement in OS X. OS 9 did not have that function. It had the Launcher, which was much less capable than the Dock. Maybe this will give you some perspective... http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/10/10/road_to_mac_os_x_leopard_dock_1_6.html Back in OS 9 days, some people used DragThing (www.dragthing.com) and its developer is still keeping it up to date. There is also Dock-It, DragStrip, and Drop Drawers. http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2004/11/dock.ars I guess you can buy those if you prefer spending money over learning about what is already there, but I think if you approach this with an open mind you will find that the Dock really works very well. It is best located it on the left (or right) and kept visible. That is how most heavy users use it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 1:52 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: OS 9 did not have that function. It had the Launcher, which was much less capable than the Dock. Maybe this will give you some perspective... Hey, I said the dock-like utility that ran under OS 9 was not coded by Apple, but was available as an add-on. I guess you can buy those if you prefer spending money over learning about what is already there, but I think if you approach this with an open mind you will find that the Dock really works very well. It is best located it on the left (or right) and kept visible. That is how most heavy users use it. Sure. The OS X dock is fine with me, and I was not the one to bring its shortcomings to light here. I do think that having the ability to click at the screen bottom or edges as an option to merely passing the mouse pointer over those areas to have the dock appear is a good idea if the user is having problems with the dock popping up when they are working in finder windows. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting tjpa t...@tjpa.com: about what is already there, but I think if you approach this with an open mind you will find that the Dock really works very well. It is best located it on the left (or right) and kept visible. That is how most heavy users use it. Pardon the noob question, but what about placing the Dock on the left or right makes it any better? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
It doesn't make it better, which is to say it might make it better for you, but not everyone. I didn't like it on the sides, bottom or the top for me. On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting tjpa t...@tjpa.com: about what is already there, but I think if you approach this with an open mind you will find that the Dock really works very well. It is best located it on the left (or right) and kept visible. That is how most heavy users use it. Pardon the noob question, but what about placing the Dock on the left or right makes it any better? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Pardon the noob question, but what about placing the Dock on the left or right makes it any better? It would probably minimize the chance that the dock, if hidden, would become visible if accidentally activated while navigating an open window that reached to the bottom of the screen. It is said that a heavy user may want the dock to the right or left of the screen. I dunno exactly what a heavy user is, perhaps someone who keeps a dozen apps and associated windows open at once, but that ain't me, so I keep mine at the bottom because I am used to that positioning and it also provides more room for whatever I want to have the dock display. Sometimes the dock accidentally activates, but it is not aggravating. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.com: On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Pardon the noob question, but what about placing the Dock on the left or right makes it any better? but that ain't me, so I keep mine at the bottom because I am used to that positioning and it also provides more room for whatever I want to have the dock display. Sometimes the dock accidentally activates, but it is not aggravating. Right. I don't know what the Dock does when it gets full. When you've got more icons than can fit in a given space (vertical or horizontal). Do the icons shrink to make more room? start a second row? It seems like you'd run out of space faster if your Dock is on the side, and I'm assuming a heavy user would tend to have more icons. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 21, 2009, at 8:27 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: It is said that a heavy user may want the dock to the right or left of the screen. I dunno exactly what a heavy user is This is looking more and more like the well-known PBCAK situation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 5:23 PM, db db...@att.net wrote: That's why I was making my sacrilegious critique of some of Apple's OS bad points that cause many people unnecessary difficulty. You had mentioned the OS X dock, usually located at the bottom of the screen, and how it is often activated accidentally while navigating open windows. In OS 9, there was, and still is, a little third-party application that launched at startup. It mimicked and looked like the OS X dock, and allowed the user to install application icons and launch those apps from there just as the OS X dock does. However, it provided for either an automatic opening of the dock whenever the mouse pointer hit the bottom of the screen, a la the OS X dock, or it provided for a non-automatic opening of the dock by having the user click on the bottom of the screen, or wherever the dock was placed, to activate it, thus avoiding unintended opening of the dock. It seems to me that Apple could do the same with their dock, and that would definitely be an improvement for those who want to use the dock, yet want to avoid activating it when it is not desired. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
t.piwowar wrote: On Dec 19, 2009, at 5:23 PM, db wrote: That's why I was making my sacrilegious critique of some of Apple's OS bad points that cause many people unnecessary difficulty. If the IT literate don't/ can't see the problem, it will never be fixed and the system remains unaccountable. Except you were not. At most you were arguing that you would have designed some things differently and insisting that any deviation from you desires was a defect. That just isn't so. We have a difference in opinion then... I did explain how there were perfectly valid, but different, methods that worked just fine. I even gave an example of something that really was a defect. Different methods can be equivalent. I just don't think that is so in this case. Not that the Mac Dock, Finder and Menu systems don't work. They do but in my opinion, they just don't work as well as they easily could at this point in the dev cycle. They particularly don't work as well as they should for newbies ... whose icons and menus and windows mysteriously seem to go poof ... and for people on the other extreme ... for users with many windows and projects going on simultaneously. The fact that Linux, which borrows heavily from both Mac and Win, chose not to emulate those aspects from Mac is ready testament to that in my opinion. db * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting db db...@att.net: Not that the Mac Dock, Finder and Menu systems don't work. They do but in my opinion, they just don't work as well as they easily could at this point in the dev cycle. They particularly don't work as well as they should for newbies ... whose icons and menus and windows mysteriously seem to go poof ... and for people on the other extreme ... for users with many windows and projects going on simultaneously. Maybe I missed something, but I have no idea what you're talking about icons and menus and windows mysteriously seem to go poof. When you close a program, it's Dock icon *might* disappear. That happens when you don't have a short-cut icon parked there. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 20, 2009, at 8:21 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: You had mentioned the OS X dock, usually located at the bottom of the screen, and how it is often activated accidentally while navigating open windows. In OS 9, there was, and still is, a little third-party application that launched at startup. It mimicked and looked like the OS X dock, and allowed the user to install application icons and launch those apps from there just as the OS X dock does. Why not just check the check box that OS X provides to disable that function? Of course then there would be nothing to whine about! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 20, 2009, at 10:59 AM, db wrote: Not that the Mac Dock, Finder and Menu systems don't work. They do but in my opinion, they just don't work as well as they easily could at this point in the dev cycle. They particularly don't work as well as they should for newbies ... whose icons and menus and windows mysteriously seem to go poof ... and for people on the other extreme ... for users with many windows and projects going on simultaneously. There is nothing mysterious about poof. The way the Dock work is very easy to teach. One drags icons on. One drags icons off. One drags to move icons from one location to another. That's really simple. Why do you insist that it should be made complicated? And as I mentioned before, poof and other Dock changes can be disabled via a check box if you insist. If you want to whine about the Dock you should be whining about the unnecessary distinction that puts apps on the left side and other stuff on the right side. That is a useless and arbitrary distinction that new users find puzzling. Poof is not puzzling. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Yes... it's been a pretty long string. Only the Dock icons go poof but uninitiated Mac users have trouble figuring out why the menu bar has changed suddenly on them (poof!) ... and why sometimes there are icons on the dock for windows etc and sometimes there aren't (poof!). I was wondering if there were Dock add ons that anybody knew about to help with those finder and dock issues (to make them more intuitive and all encompassing... more similar to the Windows and Linux approach) and was also wondering why those issues still existed when Apple is otherwise usually very intuitive and untroublesome. But only a few saw any sense in what I was asking / saying... I got a whole lot of Mac indignation and we're too smart for such / how stupid are you to be wanting / asking for such. Not exactly an uplifting conversation for me db Reid Katan wrote: Quoting db db...@att.net: Not that the Mac Dock, Finder and Menu systems don't work. They do but in my opinion, they just don't work as well as they easily could at this point in the dev cycle. They particularly don't work as well as they should for newbies ... whose icons and menus and windows mysteriously seem to go poof ... and for people on the other extreme ... for users with many windows and projects going on simultaneously. Maybe I missed something, but I have no idea what you're talking about icons and menus and windows mysteriously seem to go poof. When you close a program, it's Dock icon *might* disappear. That happens when you don't have a short-cut icon parked there. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 9:55 AM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both? There are MUCH larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn. I'd much rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a more broadly based education in general will help them in many areas. I agree. However, the Fairfax County, Virginia school system is preparing to eliminate ALL foreign language courses. This is the same school system essentially requires that students do all research online, file their homework online, and teachers even hand out the daily homework assignments online. A recent article in the Washington Post described how poorer students without home computers flood local libraries every school day, often having to travel miles to get there, just to get their assignments, do their homework and file their assignments, but often with a 30 minute per-session limit on computer access as well as having to have a library card to even use the library computers. This is such a ridiculous situation, at least in my opinion, as to cause me to ask this question: What is the most used internet search term in the entire Washington DC metropolitan area? How about fcps blackboard, according to data from Google. That is the Fairfax County school system site where these students have to go to get their assignments, find out what URLs they have to go to in order to do their homework research, and even to post their assignments. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting db db...@att.net: That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same. Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for innovation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
I don't think it's a good thing, that's where you get things that are unaccountable like government or windows mobile. Take your pick of evil. On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting db db...@att.net: That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same. Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for innovation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Innovation by definition happens in new areas ... Given the same environment, I don't think you can significantly keep developing something indefinitely. Eventually, ingenuity and options have run their course. Quill pens were replaced by pencils and pens ... they didn't keep experimenting with new types of quills... horse and carriage by cars and trucks sulpha drugs by other antibiotics At some point a design should and does mature for good reason. It's exciting (and difficult) when the dev curve is steep but when it flattens out again, you've got a damned good item. db From their on out Reid Katan wrote: Quoting db db...@att.net: That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same. Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for innovation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
I was listening to a radio program on NPR the other day where they talked about the problem with setting standards. The new HD TV's have only 3 times as much resolution as the old standard SDTV. Not much progress is there. When you set some standards innovation seems to lag. People are designing and building well designed and radically designed PC's. One of my members has even designed and built a water resistant self contained with Battery Back up PC for use on Oil Rigs. Stewart At 01:09 PM 12/19/2009, you wrote: Innovation by definition happens in new areas ... Given the same environment, I don't think you can significantly keep developing something indefinitely. Eventually, ingenuity and options have run their course. Quill pens were replaced by pencils and pens ... they didn't keep experimenting with new types of quills... horse and carriage by cars and trucks sulpha drugs by other antibiotics At some point a design should and does mature for good reason. It's exciting (and difficult) when the dev curve is steep but when it flattens out again, you've got a damned good item. db From their on out Reid Katan wrote: Quoting db db...@att.net: That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same. Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for innovation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net wrote: The new HD TV's have only 3 times as much resolution as the old standard SDTV. Not much progress is there. Considering the quality of programs on TV, for the most part, why would anyone anguish over the quality of the picture? Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Indeed. I do find myself glued to Dexter however. On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 12:32 PM, phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.comwrote: On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net wrote: The new HD TV's have only 3 times as much resolution as the old standard SDTV. Not much progress is there. Considering the quality of programs on TV, for the most part, why would anyone anguish over the quality of the picture? Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
I don't see the connection you are making between mature product cycles and government and WM. To my mind, WM is an uninspired mediocre downscaled desktop OS product from a provider with bad juju. Did it ever mature? Governments ... have been both good and bad. The good ones were probably the ones that developed to a mature level. The bad ones are when they rot sometime thereafter... when citizens stop maintaining them. ?? db mike wrote: I don't think it's a good thing, that's where you get things that are unaccountable like government or windows mobile. Take your pick of evil. On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting db db...@att.net: That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same. Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for innovation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
My point was that part of the problem is that when things get too big they are unaccountable because they don't have to be. WM was untouched for years because nothing challanged them...the post office is run like crap because no matter what they know they will keep getting moneyunaccountable. On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 1:01 PM, db db...@att.net wrote: I don't see the connection you are making between mature product cycles and government and WM. To my mind, WM is an uninspired mediocre downscaled desktop OS product from a provider with bad juju. Did it ever mature? Governments ... have been both good and bad. The good ones were probably the ones that developed to a mature level. The bad ones are when they rot sometime thereafter... when citizens stop maintaining them. ?? db mike wrote: I don't think it's a good thing, that's where you get things that are unaccountable like government or windows mobile. Take your pick of evil. On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting db db...@att.net: That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same. Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for innovation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Monocultures are almost always bad. Besides, without Macs, who would Microsoft copy? With one OS and limited software, there are a lot of tasks--and games--that won't get done as well as with several operating systems and a variety of software. You are wrong about government. YOU/WE are the government. When elected representatives don't behave, fire them--vote for someone who's better--campaign, inform if you have to do that. If government is unaccountable, it's the fault of people who were distracted or uniformed enough to vote for crooks instead of people who represent them. You can't have someone do everything you want, but when it's 70-80%, that's pretty good. Steve mentioned the Fairfax Co, Va. schools racing to the bottom when foreign languages are more important than ever, and many students don't have computers. That's what you get when millionaires get big tax cuts, corporations get their wars, and the national debt skyrockets, resulting in cuts for school budgets. Virginia voters weren't paying attention to basics in the recent election [primary, general], otherwise they would have had better choices for governor [and local reps.]. Not paying attention and being uninformed of facts is the worst of the evils. I don't think it's a good thing, that's where you get things that are unaccountable like government or windows mobile. Take your pick of evil. On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting db db...@att.net: That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same. Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for innovation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
That's why I was making my sacrilegious critique of some of Apple's OS bad points that cause many people unnecessary difficulty. If the IT literate don't/ can't see the problem, it will never be fixed and the system remains unaccountable. With some of the name calling and righteous huffing and puffing that resulted from my OS X comments, some of you Computerguys sounded like the people defending Wall Street / the bad parts of the bailout or our continuous wars in Iraq/Afghanistan. Pointed criticism isn't a bad thing / unpatriotic it's how the accountability process begins. If things are broke... or inefficient and bothersome ... they should be fixed for the benefit of everyone and if it's just they don't bother you ... you might give people some credit for their concerns. Insisting they are wrong just makes you part of the metaphysical problem. What do you really know of other's realities? Give people some credit and empowerment sometimes for knowing something that makes no sense to you. Particularly when they are working hard and in substantial ways at it. Saying Red is Blue over and over again is a recipe for nothing good in particular... I bet most everyone has learned that lesson a few times with their significant other. If they haven't, they are no doubt living alone.. db mike wrote: My point was that part of the problem is that when things get too big they are unaccountable because they don't have to be. WM was untouched for years because nothing challanged them...the post office is run like crap because no matter what they know they will keep getting moneyunaccountable. On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 1:01 PM, db db...@att.net wrote: I don't see the connection you are making between mature product cycles and government and WM. To my mind, WM is an uninspired mediocre downscaled desktop OS product from a provider with bad juju. Did it ever mature? Governments ... have been both good and bad. The good ones were probably the ones that developed to a mature level. The bad ones are when they rot sometime thereafter... when citizens stop maintaining them. ?? db mike wrote: I don't think it's a good thing, that's where you get things that are unaccountable like government or windows mobile. Take your pick of evil. On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting db db...@att.net: That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same. Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for innovation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
In politics and computers, too many feel a different view is stupidity and not just a different view. On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 3:23 PM, db db...@att.net wrote: That's why I was making my sacrilegious critique of some of Apple's OS bad points that cause many people unnecessary difficulty. If the IT literate don't/ can't see the problem, it will never be fixed and the system remains unaccountable. With some of the name calling and righteous huffing and puffing that resulted from my OS X comments, some of you Computerguys sounded like the people defending Wall Street / the bad parts of the bailout or our continuous wars in Iraq/Afghanistan. Pointed criticism isn't a bad thing / unpatriotic it's how the accountability process begins. If things are broke... or inefficient and bothersome ... they should be fixed for the benefit of everyone and if it's just they don't bother you ... you might give people some credit for their concerns. Insisting they are wrong just makes you part of the metaphysical problem. What do you really know of other's realities? Give people some credit and empowerment sometimes for knowing something that makes no sense to you. Particularly when they are working hard and in substantial ways at it. Saying Red is Blue over and over again is a recipe for nothing good in particular... I bet most everyone has learned that lesson a few times with their significant other. If they haven't, they are no doubt living alone.. db mike wrote: My point was that part of the problem is that when things get too big they are unaccountable because they don't have to be. WM was untouched for years because nothing challanged them...the post office is run like crap because no matter what they know they will keep getting moneyunaccountable. On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 1:01 PM, db db...@att.net wrote: I don't see the connection you are making between mature product cycles and government and WM. To my mind, WM is an uninspired mediocre downscaled desktop OS product from a provider with bad juju. Did it ever mature? Governments ... have been both good and bad. The good ones were probably the ones that developed to a mature level. The bad ones are when they rot sometime thereafter... when citizens stop maintaining them. ?? db mike wrote: I don't think it's a good thing, that's where you get things that are unaccountable like government or windows mobile. Take your pick of evil. On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting db db...@att.net: That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same. Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for innovation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Before we keep knocking the PO let us remember. They are mandated by the government to deliver mail to each and every household in the US. Plus they have to do this at the same price point no matter what. They are not allowed to manage themselves. Now this does not excuse misalignment, and some other problems that are rampant. (Call it poor work habits.) I have folks that work for the PO and I know some good folks that work for the PO. The biggest complaint, is too many folks telling the PO how to manage itself, and no one giving the PO the tools to do so. One huge money saving tool? Stop all Saturday deliveries. Do you think that one will fly? Canada stopped it 25 years ago. Stewart At 02:14 PM 12/19/2009, you wrote: My point was that part of the problem is that when things get too big they are unaccountable because they don't have to be. WM was untouched for years because nothing challanged them...the post office is run like crap because no matter what they know they will keep getting moneyunaccountable. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 19, 2009, at 3:42 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: You are wrong about government. YOU/WE are the government. When elected representatives don't behave, fire them--vote for someone who's better--campaign, inform if you have to do that. If government is unaccountable, it's the fault of people who were distracted or uniformed enough to vote for crooks instead of people who represent them. You can't have someone do everything you want, but when it's 70-80%, that's pretty good. Constant denigration of government is a strategy designed to discourage as many citizens as possible from participating. That makes it easier for private interests to control it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 19, 2009, at 3:14 PM, mike wrote: My point was that part of the problem is that when things get too big they are unaccountable because they don't have to be. WM was untouched for years because nothing challanged them...the post office is run like crap because no matter what they know they will keep getting moneyunaccountable. I think there is much you don't know about the Post Office. They are working very hard to provide service in a very tough environment. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
You mean like the ordinary citizens?? Heaven forbid! On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:52 PM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: Constant denigration of government is a strategy designed to discourage as many citizens as possible from participating. That makes it easier for private interests to control it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 19, 2009, at 5:23 PM, db wrote: That's why I was making my sacrilegious critique of some of Apple's OS bad points that cause many people unnecessary difficulty. If the IT literate don't/ can't see the problem, it will never be fixed and the system remains unaccountable. Except you were not. At most you were arguing that you would have designed some things differently and insisting that any deviation from you desires was a defect. That just isn't so. I did explain how there were perfectly valid, but different, methods that worked just fine. I even gave an example of something that really was a defect. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: And I suspect it'll be increasingly harder to find people who have *no* experience with computers. So I would expect that most would have enough experience to get *started* using a computer. But what is the right computer OS to learn? Should school systems teach students to use Windows and associated software because that is what is preferred by most businesses? That seems to currently be the case as schools appear to be inching ever closer to being more like trade and industry learning centers than institutions where one receives a more broadly based education. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both? There are MUCH larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn. I'd much rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a more broadly based education in general will help them in many areas. On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 6:10 AM, phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: And I suspect it'll be increasingly harder to find people who have *no* experience with computers. So I would expect that most would have enough experience to get *started* using a computer. But what is the right computer OS to learn? Should school systems teach students to use Windows and associated software because that is what is preferred by most businesses? That seems to currently be the case as schools appear to be inching ever closer to being more like trade and industry learning centers than institutions where one receives a more broadly based education. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 18, 2009, at 8:10 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: But what is the right computer OS to learn? Should school systems teach students to use Windows and associated software because that is what is preferred by most businesses? That seems to currently be the case as schools appear to be inching ever closer to being more like trade and industry learning centers than institutions where one receives a more broadly based education. The students on a voc-ed track should probably get trained on Windows. School boards who give Windows to the academic track students should be promptly voted out of office. Anyone who watches any PBS will constantly see interviews with successful people in the arts and sciences who will almost always have a Macintosh somewhere in the background. Parents should be screaming at those bozos You are denying the opportunity for my child to win a Nobel Prize! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends, not so important at school anymore. More important at school is learning how, why they work. For too many people, computers are magic, like cars. Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no clue. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both? There are MUCH larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn. I'd much rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a more broadly based education in general will help them in many areas. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
And they rant and they rave about how awful the machine is. Not realizing it is something they did to make it behave that way. I have that occur around me all the time. My simple answer is stop what you are doing. Unless you want to learn how to fix it yourself, stop the ranting and the raving, I will not work on it. (Wife and children) Stewart At 09:59 AM 12/18/2009, you wrote: I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends, not so important at school anymore. More important at school is learning how, why they work. For too many people, computers are magic, like cars. Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no clue. Thank you, Mark Snyder * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
I sometimes wear a tee shirt I got years ago from Sun that says, No, I will not fix your computer in bold lettering. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- And they rant and they rave about how awful the machine is. Not realizing it is something they did to make it behave that way. I have that occur around me all the time. My simple answer is stop what you are doing. Unless you want to learn how to fix it yourself, stop the ranting and the raving, I will not work on it. (Wife and children) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
I thought you originally were in IT when you worked with mainframes? db b_s-wilk wrote: And it's not complicated for you... you have long been an IT who loves to learn this stuff. The fact that IT people think and expect everyone else to be like them is the big geek disconnect that the rest of the world wonders about and makes fun of. I'm not in IT. I'm an artist who has been using Macs and PCs since they were invented, workstations and mainframes before that. There were no classes, no IT, no certifications, no third party books, no Internet [only BBS], only friends, coworkers, user groups, some tech support, mostly from other users and pros. I've mostly worked alone or in small studios with long-distance clients. We had to help each other figure out how to do what we needed, including drawing, painting, illustrating, photo retouching, camera, layout, prepress, audio, video, networking. We learned it on our own and provided tech support for each other. When your work depends on knowing the software and hardware, you do whatever you can to learn how to use it. Thank goodness for friends and computer user groups. They've been most helpful. So has curiosity and patience, especially patience. Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
People think completely differently and have patience and time for different kinds of things. I am constantly seeing hoards of people who are in the ditch with their computer as soon as anything departs from the narrow path they have for email, browsing, uploading their pics to the camera etc.. Don't know how to change their browser home page, only go back and forth or close windows when browsing as their method of control, are using their recents as an addressbook, can't conceptualize what photosharing sites are or how to use them, have no idea of what the cloud is, have no apps on their iPhone and don't know how to put them there or use their iPhone for anything else but a phone and emailer (that the Apple store set up for them). Most importantly... they are pretty much as started as they are ever going to be and never try to use the computer itself to help them figure out any issue or capability they encounter. They have 0 aptitude and interest for figuring out the interface images they see. Someone has shown them how to do this or that ... and that is pretty much where they remain. These are the people who the GUI was invented for and these people now make up the majority of computer users in the US today. These are the people who better intuitive window control and taskbars/ docks are meant for because they constantly are making their icons go poof etc. Not for the people who know how to and do subscribe and participate in a Computerguys list. Yes you and I know how to start on most any computer related issue ... But do we know what the rest of the world is about and what their limitations and needs are? Or is that our prideful ignorance and our limitation? db Reid Katan wrote: Quoting b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es: And it's not complicated for you... you have long been an IT who loves to learn this stuff. The fact that IT people think and expect everyone else to be like them is the big geek disconnect that the rest of the world wonders about and makes fun of. I'm an artist who has been using Macs and PCs since they were invented, workstations and mainframes before that. There were no classes, no IT, no certifications, no third party books, no Internet [only BBS], only friends, coworkers, user groups, some tech support, mostly from other users and pros. And I suspect it'll be increasingly harder to find people who have *no* experience with computers. So I would expect that most would have enough experience to get *started* using a computer. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same. db phartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: And I suspect it'll be increasingly harder to find people who have *no* experience with computers. So I would expect that most would have enough experience to get *started* using a computer. But what is the right computer OS to learn? Should school systems teach students to use Windows and associated software because that is what is preferred by most businesses? That seems to currently be the case as schools appear to be inching ever closer to being more like trade and industry learning centers than institutions where one receives a more broadly based education. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
The young will learn both and as they do proprietary designs will become meaningless and disappear like vestigial organs. The power of proprietary designs is dividing the market for market share purposes. Once they don't accomplish that mission they are just an expense to be unnecessarily maintained. Not to mention that patent advantage will have likewise disappeared. db .mike wrote: I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both? There are MUCH larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn. I'd much rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a more broadly based education in general will help them in many areas. On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 6:10 AM, phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: And I suspect it'll be increasingly harder to find people who have *no* experience with computers. So I would expect that most would have enough experience to get *started* using a computer. But what is the right computer OS to learn? Should school systems teach students to use Windows and associated software because that is what is preferred by most businesses? That seems to currently be the case as schools appear to be inching ever closer to being more like trade and industry learning centers than institutions where one receives a more broadly based education. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote: I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends, not so important at school anymore. More important at school is learning how, why they work. For too many people, computers are magic, like cars. Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no clue. Do you know how to fix your car, the light switch in your house, how to do therapy on your knee, make your own jewelry or wall art, grow your own vegetables, raise your own chickens, file your own taxes, represent yourself in court? But everyone knows how to drive a car. Why? Because the controls ... except for Minis ... are all essentially the same design that time and need showed were more or less the most effective. As should be with the world's long running stupid shoot ourselves in the foot Win vs. Mac's are better contest. The modern world is way to specialized for everyone to be an expert of their universe ... a Renaissance Man. Specialization requires specialists ... and that makes magic for the rest of us. You just get to choose your specialty and your magic. db Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both? There are MUCH larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn. I'd much rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a more broadly based education in general will help them in many areas. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Faulty logic...we all know how to drive cars because we want to go places. Not because they are all the same. By this logic everyone should know how to change the oil or a tire...but they don't. On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:46 PM, db db...@att.net wrote: Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote: I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends, not so important at school anymore. More important at school is learning how, why they work. For too many people, computers are magic, like cars. Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no clue. Do you know how to fix your car, the light switch in your house, how to do therapy on your knee, make your own jewelry or wall art, grow your own vegetables, raise your own chickens, file your own taxes, represent yourself in court? But everyone knows how to drive a car. Why? Because the controls ... except for Minis ... are all essentially the same design that time and need showed were more or less the most effective. As should be with the world's long running stupid shoot ourselves in the foot Win vs. Mac's are better contest. The modern world is way to specialized for everyone to be an expert of their universe ... a Renaissance Man. Specialization requires specialists ... and that makes magic for the rest of us. You just get to choose your specialty and your magic. db Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both? There are MUCH larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn. I'd much rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a more broadly based education in general will help them in many areas. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Yes want is involved but in a society where you are disadvantaged and uncool etc to not compute, it's not the determining factor. We can afford to pay for the oil or tire but few can afford to pay for a driver. Likewise with a computer. Few can afford secretaries but they can afford to have someone fix their computer occasionally etc. Computers became ubiquitous when their OS's became reasonably intuitive / graphic so that everyman could drive themselves. Great leaps in intuitive design automatically are rewarded. That's why I think apple ... a pretty good interface on top of truly great computers ... is shooting itself in the foot by refusing to change some faults in their design that most all professionals will acknowledge exist ... and that would cause people to absolutely flock to their products ... as they have for the iPod and iPhone. db mike wrote: Faulty logic...we all know how to drive cars because we want to go places. Not because they are all the same. By this logic everyone should know how to change the oil or a tire...but they don't. On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:46 PM, db db...@att.net wrote: Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote: I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends, not so important at school anymore. More important at school is learning how, why they work. For too many people, computers are magic, like cars. Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no clue. Do you know how to fix your car, the light switch in your house, how to do therapy on your knee, make your own jewelry or wall art, grow your own vegetables, raise your own chickens, file your own taxes, represent yourself in court? But everyone knows how to drive a car. Why? Because the controls ... except for Minis ... are all essentially the same design that time and need showed were more or less the most effective. As should be with the world's long running stupid shoot ourselves in the foot Win vs. Mac's are better contest. The modern world is way to specialized for everyone to be an expert of their universe ... a Renaissance Man. Specialization requires specialists ... and that makes magic for the rest of us. You just get to choose your specialty and your magic. db Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both? There are MUCH larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn. I'd much rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a more broadly based education in general will help them in many areas. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
If their gains in the market is 'shooting themselves in the foot' God give me that kind of gun. On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 1:56 PM, db db...@att.net wrote: Yes want is involved but in a society where you are disadvantaged and uncool etc to not compute, it's not the determining factor. We can afford to pay for the oil or tire but few can afford to pay for a driver. Likewise with a computer. Few can afford secretaries but they can afford to have someone fix their computer occasionally etc. Computers became ubiquitous when their OS's became reasonably intuitive / graphic so that everyman could drive themselves. Great leaps in intuitive design automatically are rewarded. That's why I think apple ... a pretty good interface on top of truly great computers ... is shooting itself in the foot by refusing to change some faults in their design that most all professionals will acknowledge exist ... and that would cause people to absolutely flock to their products ... as they have for the iPod and iPhone. db mike wrote: Faulty logic...we all know how to drive cars because we want to go places. Not because they are all the same. By this logic everyone should know how to change the oil or a tire...but they don't. On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:46 PM, db db...@att.net wrote: Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote: I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends, not so important at school anymore. More important at school is learning how, why they work. For too many people, computers are magic, like cars. Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no clue. Do you know how to fix your car, the light switch in your house, how to do therapy on your knee, make your own jewelry or wall art, grow your own vegetables, raise your own chickens, file your own taxes, represent yourself in court? But everyone knows how to drive a car. Why? Because the controls ... except for Minis ... are all essentially the same design that time and need showed were more or less the most effective. As should be with the world's long running stupid shoot ourselves in the foot Win vs. Mac's are better contest. The modern world is way to specialized for everyone to be an expert of their universe ... a Renaissance Man. Specialization requires specialists ... and that makes magic for the rest of us. You just get to choose your specialty and your magic. db Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both? There are MUCH larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn. I'd much rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a more broadly based education in general will help them in many areas. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 18, 2009, at 2:23 PM, db wrote: That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same. WFB paradise? WFBs dream of the day when Joe Stalin will rise again and command Soviet-style uniformity. Mac users will huddle in basements hoping to avoid the secret police. In reality the future will be MacOS, Android, Palm, RIM, and a few hold outs still WINCEing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Funny how the lefties like Tom who really *did* back stalin push him off on others... On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 2:54 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Dec 18, 2009, at 2:23 PM, db wrote: That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same. WFB paradise? WFBs dream of the day when Joe Stalin will rise again and command Soviet-style uniformity. Mac users will huddle in basements hoping to avoid the secret police. In reality the future will be MacOS, Android, Palm, RIM, and a few hold outs still WINCEing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
I thought you originally were in IT when you worked with mainframes? I was an art major in college. I took programming [Fortran--Cobol might have been better for Y2K] because it looked like plotting and drawing would eventually be done on computers, and because artists are independent business people who need to know how to run their businesses. It was better than the course I took on Logic. When I experimented briefly with the GE Genigraphics system http://www.genigraphics.com/other/about_genigraphics.asp, I used a terminal. I don't know where the mainframe was, but the output was in DC and it had to be shipped to Philly overnight. For other work, I used shared terminals in Philly and one mainframe was somewhere in Michigan, the other in Massachusetts. Most of what I know about IT, support and networking I learned on my own, just like my friends did. I took an MCSE course several years ago, but decided I didn't want to do just tech support, especially for Windows. I had enough artwork to keep me busy by then. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends, not so important at school anymore. More important at school is learning how, why they work. For too many people, computers are magic, like cars. Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no clue. Do you know how to fix your car, the light switch in your house, how to do therapy on your knee, make your own jewelry or wall art, grow your own vegetables, raise your own chickens, file your own taxes, represent yourself in court? Yes to all but being my own lawyer. But everyone knows how to drive a car. Why? Because the controls ... except for Minis ... are all essentially the same design that time and need showed were more or less the most effective. ...except for Peugeot, Citroen, Perodua, Fiat, Skoda, Tata, Alfa Romeo, Proton, Lada, Trabant, Yugo... Come on. Almost anyone can learn how to use computers, and non-American cars, if they put their minds to it and take time to RTFM or simply ask questions. I figured out how to use the controls on an Alfa Romeo we rented in Germany, and the manual was in German [I don't speak German without a dictionary ;-) ]. My mother learned how to use a computer [PC] in her 70s, so did my Dad [Mac]. Should be easier for all your students/clients who are younger than 70--or 80. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Yes want is involved but in a society where you are disadvantaged and uncool etc to not compute, it's not the determining factor. We can afford to pay for the oil or tire but few can afford to pay for a driver. Most of my friends when I was in high school could change oil or change a tire in their cars. I can. We also did valve jobs ourselves for the fun of it [well almost], and repair motorcycles. Anyone who is capable of doing an oil change and car repair is smart enough to learn how to use a computer--if they want to do it. If they say they can't, it's a mental block, not lack of ability. Conversely, if you can use a computer, you can learn how to work on your car. You have to want to learn how to use the computer instead of thinking about how difficult it is [it isn't] and how you can't learn [you can]. Just do it!!! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
I've been using XP for years in my office and still am (they will upgrade to W7 in about 2012), but had never used Help. I tried each of the methods suggested and they work. I wouldn't have known, though without the suggestions. I have no idea how a newbie would guess them. Finding help on the Mac has always been obvious, even for newbies. It would be easy to show a newbie how to find help in Windows, just not necessary in OS X. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- S...you can find help on the mac keyboard...but not on the windows one? Does Apple spell HELP different than windows. HELP That's how it should look. Also when I press the start button and type that word just as it appears above, I get loads of help. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
My (company's) HP laptop keyboard (built-in and external) just have F1. Nothing says Help on it. When I click Start on the taskbar, I did see Help and Support near Log Off and Shut Down, but I did have to look for it. Office 2007 had enough annoying changes to make me hunt around to find things I knew in Office 2003. It took me about a week to remember most of the new stuff, which seem to be mostly changes in the way I get to the various functions of the old version more than seeing new ones. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- All my keyboards say 'F1' and 'HELP' underneath the F1...I think even noobs can get that. Or they can hit that big glowy button start and help is almost first on the list. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 1:29 AM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: Nope. Not entertainment, but everything you need to do in life. They got your music. They got your cell phone. They got your pocket computer. And soon everything you need to read will be on the iPad. All one seamless integrated system. Am I being instructed by Apple Corp. as to what I need to do in life? I don't need their help to figure that out. This boy does not need music on the go. He may enjoy it thusly, but not nearly so much as when he is at home with his bombastic music system. I have music in the car if I want some travellin' tunes. Cell phone? Don't want one except for emergencies, real or perceived Mine stays solely in the car and I place or take no calls unless stopped and off the roadway or have mechanical troubles. Again, not a device for me to get anal about. Pocket computer? Ha! Don't need one now, and never did. If I get antsy about wanting to access some stream of data, it can wait until I get home. Patience is a virtue, and there are multitudes of other things to do in life beyond staring at screens and tapping keyboards throughout the day. Camera phones? I'm a pro, and those are but toys. Stealing from the Letterman Show, I poop on them! Now, if those things rolled out toilet paper, that could alter my perspective. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es: Window's windows have Help on the menu bar too. Turns out, you can't hide/minimize *all* your windows in OSX anyway. Just tried it with Com-H and no matter what window way last, it wouldn't go away. Maybe there are other ways to do it, but. . . Why do you want to hide all windows? Does that include windows in a program you're using? *I* don't usually hie all my windows. db put fort the question what's a noob supposed to do if there are no windows open on the desktop (or something to that effect)? I'm just saying it's not easy to do in OSX. Almost *certainly* a noob isn't going to be able to do it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:23 PM, db wrote: 1. Lock the infernal icons so that inexperienced users can't poof them Set up a managed account and uncheck the box for Can modify the Dock. 2. Make the dock superficially display icons for every window running whether it is maximized or not. The Dock normally displays an icon for every application, click on the icon to get a list of windows for that application. That does the job quite well. Your insisting that it has to function exactly in a particular way is like insisting that your MP3 player has to be brown. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:39 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: These are after market keyboards not the cheap included in a package ones. Not on my fancy KeyTronic event though it has a row of auxilary buttons for volume, mute, video controls, calculator, mail, etc. etc. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 17, 2009, at 6:46 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote: Start on the taskbar, I did see Help and Support near Log Off and Shut Down, but I did have to look for it. Not on my PC. When I started to type help as instructed here it launched Roxio CD Creator. Why? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 17, 2009, at 7:52 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Am I being instructed by Apple Corp. as to what I need to do in life? I don't need their help to figure that out. This boy does not need music on the go. He may enjoy it thusly, but not nearly so much as when he is at home with his bombastic music system. I have music in the car if I want some travellin' tunes. Well not EVERYTHING. It is M$ that offers the prayer chain app (I forget its name). I can't say that M$ hasn't got a prayer. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:17 PM, db wrote: So no matter what I am willing or not willing to do for myself... I still constantly struggle with people who are struggling with these OSX (and increasing Win... ) issues I mentioned. I find that reading Apple's HDI docs is a useful place for an instructor to start. I don't teach the OS as much as I teach the HDI. A common comment I get from students is I was going to ask you how to do 'x, then I realized you had taught me how to figure that out for myself. My major gripe about OS X is that Apple's UNIX programmers never read the HDI. That makes for many more user interface problems and inconsistencies. OS 9 was much better in this regard. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 16, 2009, at 7:51 PM, Reid Katan wrote: Frankly, I don't see how a noob is going to make the connection in OSX to click on an oval shaped white spot at the top right of the Finder window and type help into that. Frankly, I don't know why anyone would do that. That would be a silly way to get help. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
I doubt they cared, google search on a windows box is horrible. It's slow, and the results are usually too stinted to matter. The built in search and also that third party utility I use do the same as search in OSX, begin giving you results as you type, the more you type the narrower the results become. Google search in windows was the bottom of the barrel as far as search goes compared to other third party apps like copernic and yahoo search etc. On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:18 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:36 PM, mike wrote: I found search horrid in XP and win2k...vista better, 7 has been great but not perfect. I can open any program or utility, control panel, management tool I want right from the start menu. Easy. I have thousands of mp3's, loads and loads of pics etc...I run a program called everything that is small and all it does is index filenames...searches with this are done in real time, zero wait. After Google put up their own search tool for Windows, M$ kind of had to do something. No? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
You might have known if you were looking for it. You said you never even looked for it, I'm not sure how someone looking could miss the HELP in every application window and the HELP in the start menu. I mean start -- help. It's not that hard. BTW, I've known too many mac users to believe anything is obvious. Too many windows users too...the pendulum swings both ways. On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 4:36 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) mark.sny...@ngc.com wrote: I've been using XP for years in my office and still am (they will upgrade to W7 in about 2012), but had never used Help. I tried each of the methods suggested and they work. I wouldn't have known, though without the suggestions. I have no idea how a newbie would guess them. Finding help on the Mac has always been obvious, even for newbies. It would be easy to show a newbie how to find help in Windows, just not necessary in OS X. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- S...you can find help on the mac keyboard...but not on the windows one? Does Apple spell HELP different than windows. HELP That's how it should look. Also when I press the start button and type that word just as it appears above, I get loads of help. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
b_s-wilk wrote: 1. Lock the infernal icons so that inexperienced users can't poof them 2. Make the dock superficially display icons for every window running whether it is maximized or not. Is your dock at the bottom of the screen? I've never poofed icons from the dock when it's on the left. I have done that in the sidebar of Finder windows, but that's easy to fix. It's just another D'Oh moment, though. It's not usually my dock... it's other's using computers I am responsible for... People are used to looking on the bottom and with Mac's it's very time consuming to mass load computers if you customize them all a lot... In the top menu, there's almost always a menu for Window which lists the open windows in a program. Yes, but that constantly requires a lot of extra mousing and clicking With many programs and windows open, it wouldn't help to have them in the Dock since the icons would be too small to see. I pretty much know where things are by relative position... windows and programs I was using for a project are adjacent ... and I use Virtual Desktop Manager to segregate them into smaller groups where the icons are bigger Only minimized windows have Dock icons, and only for the program you're using at the time. Use Exposé to see or hide all windows. Nobody but the IT educated know what Expose is... where it is ... nor how to use it. It's one of the cludges I was referring to. Obviously it was developed because Apple was aware of the problem / need but they could have done that by fixing the Finder / Dock where that function would be readily apparent. But that probably would make Apple more like windows/ linux... so with these issues we're talking about they just pridefully continue cutting off their nose to spite their face in not providing a intuitive and comprehensive fix for the people who need it... the noobs. The world won't end because of it... but now nice it would be if they could make OS X shiny and complete. db * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
No, I meant I never looked for the Help menu in XP. Since it is a company-configured OS, I had to look to see if it was there on this laptop. Since I never looked for it, I had no idea how to find it. I've known forever (since 1980's) where help was in Mac OS then OS X. Any sited person who can read couldn't miss it. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- You might have known if you were looking for it. You said you never even looked for it, I'm not sure how someone looking could miss the HELP in every application window and the HELP in the start menu. I mean start -- help. It's not that hard. BTW, I've known too many mac users to believe anything is obvious. Too many windows users too...the pendulum swings both ways. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Right, just as any sighted person can't miss it in windows.. On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) mark.sny...@ngc.com wrote: No, I meant I never looked for the Help menu in XP. Since it is a company-configured OS, I had to look to see if it was there on this laptop. Since I never looked for it, I had no idea how to find it. I've known forever (since 1980's) where help was in Mac OS then OS X. Any sited person who can read couldn't miss it. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- You might have known if you were looking for it. You said you never even looked for it, I'm not sure how someone looking could miss the HELP in every application window and the HELP in the start menu. I mean start -- help. It's not that hard. BTW, I've known too many mac users to believe anything is obvious. Too many windows users too...the pendulum swings both ways. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
It has been known since the creation of Windows 95 that pressing the F1 key brings up help. At one time CHM files were also help files. Stewart At 12:11 PM 12/17/2009, you wrote: No, I meant I never looked for the Help menu in XP. Since it is a company-configured OS, I had to look to see if it was there on this laptop. Since I never looked for it, I had no idea how to find it. I've known forever (since 1980's) where help was in Mac OS then OS X. Any sited person who can read couldn't miss it. Thank you, Mark Snyder * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Use Exposé to see or hide all windows. Nobody but the IT educated know what Expose is... where it is ... nor how to use it. It's one of the cludges I was referring to. Obviously it was developed because Apple was aware of the problem / need but they could have done that by fixing the Finder / Dock where that function would be readily apparent. You don't need to be IT educated to find the Help menu at the top of the screen and input simple search terms. All you need is eyes and the ability to read. You seem to be making it more complicated than it actually is. Finder -- Help -- Search hide and show windows -- Show All Results... opens the Mac Help Viewer with the answers. Remember the good old days when we had manuals and tutorials? You may have to buy a manual, but Mac OS X has dozens of built-in and linked tutorials. Where? Finder -- Help -- Search tutorials -- Show All Results... Some tutorials are local and others need Internet connections. You can set up the computers so they can go to the online tutorials when users click on the articles in the Mac Help Viewer. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
b_s-wilk wrote: Use Exposé to see or hide all windows. Nobody but the IT educated know what Expose is... where it is ... nor how to use it. It's one of the cludges I was referring to. Obviously it was developed because Apple was aware of the problem / need but they could have done that by fixing the Finder / Dock where that function would be readily apparent. You don't need to be IT educated to find the Help menu at the top of the screen and input simple search terms. All you need is eyes and the ability to read. You seem to be making it more complicated than it actually is. I wasn't the person who started the help issue string. Although I resent having to look things up and do work around when it shouldn't be necessary, I easily can. And it's not complicated for you... you have long been an IT who loves to learn this stuff. The fact that IT people think and expect everyone else to be like them is the big geek disconnect that the rest of the world wonders about and makes fun of. Most people I know are busy and they just want to use their machine for simple tasks: email / browsing / writing letters / keeping accounts/ handling their music / movies. They dread having to spend the time to dig out an education from a machine ... they are not good at it and they just don't do it. They are people people not IT people. That was the whole concept behind GUI... computer operation for novices. My point is where the king of GUI's is not intuitive, THAT should be fixed. It only makes common sense and utility for those who depend on it to do so. If Apple would just let go of some of the pride thing, they could more completely and justly be worthy of that pride and the respect that goes with it. Seems to me a no-brainer... Finder -- Help -- Search hide and show windows -- Show All Results... opens the Mac Help Viewer with the answers. Remember the good old days when we had manuals and tutorials? You may have to buy a manual, but Mac OS X has dozens of built-in and linked tutorials. Where? Finder -- Help -- Search tutorials -- Show All Results... Some tutorials are local and others need Internet connections. You can set up the computers so they can go to the online tutorials when users click on the articles in the Mac Help Viewer. I know where all these things are... but that's exactly my point... I and others should not have to be doing so for things that by now could easily have been made drop dead simple. We have better things to do with our limited time. db * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting tjpa t...@tjpa.com: The Dock normally displays an icon for every application, click on the icon to get a list of windows for that application. That does the job quite well. Your insisting that it has to function exactly in a particular way is like insisting that your MP3 player has to be brown. And, of course, Task Bar is becoming more Dock-like. It has the option (I think the default) to combine the icons of programs and show all their windows when you hover over them. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
And it's not complicated for you... you have long been an IT who loves to learn this stuff. The fact that IT people think and expect everyone else to be like them is the big geek disconnect that the rest of the world wonders about and makes fun of. I'm not in IT. I'm an artist who has been using Macs and PCs since they were invented, workstations and mainframes before that. There were no classes, no IT, no certifications, no third party books, no Internet [only BBS], only friends, coworkers, user groups, some tech support, mostly from other users and pros. I've mostly worked alone or in small studios with long-distance clients. We had to help each other figure out how to do what we needed, including drawing, painting, illustrating, photo retouching, camera, layout, prepress, audio, video, networking. We learned it on our own and provided tech support for each other. When your work depends on knowing the software and hardware, you do whatever you can to learn how to use it. Thank goodness for friends and computer user groups. They've been most helpful. So has curiosity and patience, especially patience. Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es: And it's not complicated for you... you have long been an IT who loves to learn this stuff. The fact that IT people think and expect everyone else to be like them is the big geek disconnect that the rest of the world wonders about and makes fun of. I'm an artist who has been using Macs and PCs since they were invented, workstations and mainframes before that. There were no classes, no IT, no certifications, no third party books, no Internet [only BBS], only friends, coworkers, user groups, some tech support, mostly from other users and pros. And I suspect it'll be increasingly harder to find people who have *no* experience with computers. So I would expect that most would have enough experience to get *started* using a computer. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
b_s-wilk wrote: And the newer Mac add-ons to expose the desktop, find the current window, find all the windows, switch windows, more easlily find your program executable are laboriously clumsy and cluged work-arounds that could just be solved by fixing the instruments that were originally designed to perform those functions ... the Finder, dock, and menus Automobiles used to have starting systems, shift levers, headlight dimmer, horns ... you name it ... all working differently and located all over the interior of the car with each manufacturer. But guess what?... they all work all most identically now and they are all located in the same relative place. By and large better utility won out probably because in the case of autos ... form REALLY followed function ... it was dangerous to continue otherwise... Apple would be better off in its own right if they would give a little now and then when someone else has a better design element... Find the Mac desktop: Command + H hides the open programs and reveals the desktop, or if in the Finder, Option + Command + H hides everything else. Why not just one key command? It's all these alternatives that are killing ... I'm trying to figure out the work not every version of every type of digital device I might be using to access my work. Windows show desktop on the quick launch menu ... does exactly that no matter what... it's a visible icon with a mouse over descriptor... It's superficially available to even a novice... Guess what? Not all automobiles are almost identical now! Is that a feature? Seems like one that increases the odds of getting me killed when someone else on the highway with me borrows a mini and is struggling in a sudden downpour to find the wipers? Driven a MINI lately? First time I drove in a blinding rain storm, I had to pull over to look at the manual to figure out how to turn on the windshield wipers. Had to get out the manual to figure out how to open the bonnet to find the battery, then needed the manual to reset the tire pressure control monitor. Needed the manual to display the speed on the steering wheel display instead of the huge superfluous speedometer. The many thousands of other settings are unlike in any car I've driven before, and I've driven a lot of different cars. I still love my MINI. It's so much fun! Have you ever driven a Citroën or Skoda? They're different too, not cludged or clumsy--different. I love differences... just not ones that make me more inefficient in my work, endanger me, disadvantage people etc Computer OSs are different too. How about the annoyance when switching cell phones? I switch from Nokia to Samsung to Motorola to Sony-Ericsson back to Nokia. Each has a different OS, different menus. Again ... is that considered a feature? Or a painful primitive stage in the development curve of a new technology? I understand perfectly that such can't be avoided in dev cycles and that is exactly what I am trying to say with my Finder, Dock comments: ... ... HEY everybody... don't you think the Mac needs to be improved in such and such? Hey guys, why are we stopping here? ... Some are better, some worse, depends on what you prefer, and it's the same with computers. None are perfect. You use what works for you. I'm not asking for perfect... I am asking for specific improvement that could easily be done. Goodness and excellence comes with the pursuit of perfect... Have you tried to learn a foreign language lately? Yes... and I am of the age that they don't come easily or very well any more. I do by best but that is just the way it is and increasingly will be for me. Which is exactly my point... Utilitarian tools should not discriminate against the inexperienced nor the aging... Experts don't need intuitive tools ... it's everyone else that does... db Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting mike xha...@gmail.com: Odd because I found the opposite. I didn't find myself looking for anything. Do you have any examples of what you noticed? My wife too is on 7, I installed it one day while she was gone, after two days I finally asked her if she liked it was having trouble...she looked at me blankly 'it's working..' Like what else is it supposed to do? She had zero trouble with the transition. I'm actually finding it harder to get used to Win7 than OSX. Microsoft just moved *everything*. Every time I want to do something, I have to try to remember where they put it. It's effin' annoying. Two that come to mind are network adapter settings and the Control Panel. Seems like I'm always trying to remember how to get to the adapter settings, and the Control Panel has a mind of it's own. I usually get to it by way of Windows Explorer. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it isn't. If I could just figure out how it got there. Maybe my biggest problem with Win7 is that things aren't where they should be, but OSX with I have no preconceived notions. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Right, I can see the control panel issue, they took them and grouped em in Vista and it's not clear how to ungroup them in 7. Network adapters...still available in the system tray. I think part of windows problem is there are sixteen ways to do anything, perhaps they changed one way but that's the way some do it. Keep in mind if you have trouble finding anything, hit start and begin typing, I open very nearly everything this way. From the task manager to any control panel, programs...everything can be opened via the start menu. Sounds like we just learned to do things differently in windows, I wish they'd have changed more things, most seem to be where they were. There are differences between the new 7 explorer menus and the old ones in win2k/xp etc..but the new menus feel better organized to me. On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Two that come to mind are network adapter settings and the Control Panel. Seems like I'm always trying to remember how to get to the adapter settings, and the Control Panel has a mind of it's own. I usually get to it by way of Windows Explorer. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it isn't. If I could just figure out how it got there. Maybe my biggest problem with Win7 is that things aren't where they should be, but OSX with I have no preconceived notions. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
OS X dock is not as much help as it easily could be and as a Linux or Window taskbars are today. The Dock is a half measure of what taskbars were always intended to be in terms of function. Interesting. The only time I use the Taskbar in Windows is to see what time it is, figure out why the WiFi isn't working, and to click on Start to shut down the computer. Each OS has its strengths and weaknesses--many are in the eye of the user. There are plenty of utilities to change the way you interact with the systems. Analyzing and describing what annoys you about the system is futile. Find the utilities that make your system work better for you. Send your issues directly to the Apple/MS, post on their boards. And why complain that the Mac doesn't work the same as Windows or Linux anyway? Maybe you could use David Pogue's Missing Manuals. Got them ... but the title of that series exactly makes my point. Mac's manuals are missing ... So are the Windows manuals. I'd love to switch but just can't sacrifice Window's / Linux simplicity of function in running a gadzillion windows / projects at once... It seems that you're thinking about it too much. It's like learning a new language. Learn the language/OS and don't try to translate. It's faster and less tedious that way. You think you're having trouble getting used to Mac OS X? Try this: I had to learn Quark XPress on a tight deadline, without a manual or tutorials because a former employee left with the expensive manuals! OS X = user friendly; Quark XPress = user hostile. You can do it Dan! I'll drink to that! You too! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
It's like they *tried* to make it as hard as they could. On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:10 AM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: Quark XPress = user hostile. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 12:10 PM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: OS X dock is not as much help as it easily could be and as a Linux or Window taskbars are today. The Dock is a half measure of what taskbars were always intended to be in terms of function. Interesting. The only time I use the Taskbar in Windows is to see what time it is, figure out why the WiFi isn't working, and to click on Start to shut down the computer. Each OS has its strengths and weaknesses--many are in the eye of the user. There are plenty of utilities to change the way you interact with the systems. Analyzing and describing what annoys you about the system is futile. Find the utilities that make your system work better for you. Send your issues directly to the Apple/MS, post on their boards. I don't find much of a difference in WIN7s task bar and the OSX6 dock. There is more stuff automatically on the OSX dock but most of what is available on the WIN7 taskbar is on the Dock. The Dock has more automatically attached than the taskbar. The taskbar seems to have more options available than the Dock. And why complain that the Mac doesn't work the same as Windows or Linux anyway? Maybe you could use David Pogue's Missing Manuals. Got them ... but the title of that series exactly makes my point. Mac's manuals are missing ... So are the Windows manuals. All the manuals are missing which is OK if there is a decent help file provided somewhere. I actually am more likely to complain about the manuals for iPod than anything else. I have yet to see a good explanation of how to use the on the go playlist or how to keep my iPod from turning on disk use. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
I'm just talking because someone brought the subject up. Why do I bring it up? On this list I am more and more constantly filtering out WFB / MFB back and forth yadda yadda, Yes it is ... no it isn't ya duffas, slam / counterslam strings that mostly lack any technical substance and are much more about personal confrontation than any kind of substantive technical discussion. So I got particular... put down some of my exact observations and experience about OS X tech inefficiencies that get in my way and are surprisingly and noticeably unintuitive and that I would like changed. Why? Maybe eventually such discussions could have an effect. Tom for one is somewhat of a Mac authority. Nothing typically changes until the need is made apparent and I'm doing my bit to advance that process. Eventually if windows continues to get worse and Linux doesn't get more general acceptance / tie-in, I may have enough reasons to switch my personal machine to OS X and figure out work-a-rounds but for now... I just do what works most easily for me... and that's not OS X. But I do keep my ear out for Dock replacements... db b_s-wilk wrote: OS X dock is not as much help as it easily could be and as a Linux or Window taskbars are today. The Dock is a half measure of what taskbars were always intended to be in terms of function. Interesting. The only time I use the Taskbar in Windows is to see what time it is, figure out why the WiFi isn't working, and to click on Start to shut down the computer. Each OS has its strengths and weaknesses--many are in the eye of the user. There are plenty of utilities to change the way you interact with the systems. Analyzing and describing what annoys you about the system is futile. Find the utilities that make your system work better for you. Send your issues directly to the Apple/MS, post on their boards. And why complain that the Mac doesn't work the same as Windows or Linux anyway? Maybe you could use David Pogue's Missing Manuals. Got them ... but the title of that series exactly makes my point. Mac's manuals are missing ... So are the Windows manuals. I'd love to switch but just can't sacrifice Window's / Linux simplicity of function in running a gadzillion windows / projects at once... It seems that you're thinking about it too much. It's like learning a new language. Learn the language/OS and don't try to translate. It's faster and less tedious that way. You think you're having trouble getting used to Mac OS X? Try this: I had to learn Quark XPress on a tight deadline, without a manual or tutorials because a former employee left with the expensive manuals! OS X = user friendly; Quark XPress = user hostile. You can do it Dan! I'll drink to that! You too! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 16, 2009, at 12:10 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: The only time I use the Taskbar in Windows is to see what time it is, figure out why the WiFi isn't working, and to click on Start to shut down the computer. I agree about the standard Windows Taskbar, but when much better when I put it on the left in flag-mode. Now I slightly prefer the ways my Windows Taskbar works over the Mac's Dock. I wonder if W7 will still work this way? When people who don't know what they are doing complain you have to take it for what it is worth. I was recently reading a post complaining about a particular ISP. As I read it became increasingly clear that the writer did not have a clue about how to manage their account. So who is to blame? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:10 AM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: Quark XPress = user hostile. I take it that you are an InDesign user? I think Quark made a much better analysis, with better success, at managing the complexity of a modern page layout application than Adobe did. If you are used to something different and try to apply your old style of working to a different program it is bound to be frustrating, but that does not mean Quark is worse. When I train Quark users to use InDesign I see their frustration. It takes quite a detailed analysis to state that a particular feature is really better or worse. I recall when Photoshop introduced some new tools and I was critical because the way they operated was inconsistent with some older tools that seemed similar. It took me a while to recognize that the new tools had a particular intended purpose and the seeming inconsistency simplified their use for that purpose. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 16, 2009, at 1:49 PM, db wrote: So I got particular... put down some of my exact observations and experience about OS X tech inefficiencies that get in my way and are surprisingly and noticeably unintuitive and that I would like changed. I'm particularly disappointed that this thread has continued to carp about some supposed user interface problems when it is really PEBKAC. Why the opposition to learning how to use a tool better? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 16, 2009, at 2:20 AM, db wrote: This would be one of them in my opinion. If you have ever tried to train someone on a Mac / be responsible for their learning curve and competency you would know why the Mac menu bar design leaves something to desired. I've run a computer training school for 25 years so think I have some expertise in this. What do you tell these supposedly unconfused learners to do when there are no windows open? No windows means no menus, no menus means no access to commands. In the OS X Finder there is always a menu bar and no confusion about how to get a window, to select help, etc. In Windows it ain't so simple. So how do you tell them to access the help menu when there are no windows open? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Well you said yourself you found the windows startbar more useful than the os x dock? Perhaps take this chance to tell him how to use the dock better? This is the kind of stuff he was talking about earlier, he voices some opinions and complaints etc, and he gets told to shut it and he's wrong and learn how to use it. How about some advice? Or maybe ask him specifically what the issue is... You say he is carping about 'supposed' UI problems..but you and I both know you don't think OS X is perfect in this catagory, so why continue this myth that it is? On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 12:50 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Dec 16, 2009, at 1:49 PM, db wrote: So I got particular... put down some of my exact observations and experience about OS X tech inefficiencies that get in my way and are surprisingly and noticeably unintuitive and that I would like changed. I'm particularly disappointed that this thread has continued to carp about some supposed user interface problems when it is really PEBKAC. Why the opposition to learning how to use a tool better? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Quoting tjpa t...@tjpa.com: So how do you tell them to access the help menu when there are no windows open? I know I'm biased by knowing already, but my guess would be to click the Start button. Sure, it seems odd to push the Start button to shut down, but if you want to start doing something. . . * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Hit start and type HELP...that works. On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting tjpa t...@tjpa.com: So how do you tell them to access the help menu when there are no windows open? I know I'm biased by knowing already, but my guess would be to click the Start button. Sure, it seems odd to push the Start button to shut down, but if you want to start doing something. . . * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Try F1. Stewart At 04:32 PM 12/16/2009, you wrote: Hit start and type HELP...that works. On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting tjpa t...@tjpa.com: So how do you tell them to access the help menu when there are no windows open? I know I'm biased by knowing already, but my guess would be to click the Start button. Sure, it seems odd to push the Start button to shut down, but if you want to start doing something. . . * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 16, 2009, at 5:41 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Try F1. What does that mean? You need to supply an explanation for a noob. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 16, 2009, at 5:32 PM, mike wrote: Hit start and type HELP...that works. So you are sending a confused noob to a command line interface? That is rich. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 16, 2009, at 5:17 PM, Reid Katan wrote: I know I'm biased by knowing already, but my guess would be to click the Start button. Sure, it seems odd to push the Start button to shut down, but if you want to start doing something. . . Okay, I pressed Start. A whole bunch of stuff suddenly appeared on the screen. I see nothing that says Help. What am I supposed to do? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
F1 is the universal help key in Windows. Press F! and it always brings up help. Stewart At 05:53 PM 12/16/2009, you wrote: On Dec 16, 2009, at 5:41 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Try F1. What does that mean? You need to supply an explanation for a noob. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:06 PM, mike wrote: Well you said yourself you found the windows startbar more useful than the os x dock? Perhaps take this chance to tell him how to use the dock better? Someone asking a question will get an answer. Someone posting a long list of gripes will get an overall assessment. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!
Where does it say help on a mac? Or are we using two different standards as usual? On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 4:56 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Dec 16, 2009, at 5:17 PM, Reid Katan wrote: I know I'm biased by knowing already, but my guess would be to click the Start button. Sure, it seems odd to push the Start button to shut down, but if you want to start doing something. . . Okay, I pressed Start. A whole bunch of stuff suddenly appeared on the screen. I see nothing that says Help. What am I supposed to do? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
