Re: Unusable free space?
Ron Johnson wrote: You're worried that that a mass renaming of partition numbers will cause your system to not reboot? That's why LABEL and UUID are now used in grub (lilo is restricted to device names) and fstab. Call me a luddite but UUID partition numbers for the simple reason I can manually write down numbers and be pretty sure I didn't transpose one of the 4 pieces of data required to get it to work. Every time I see a UUID I just wanna thunk my head against the desk. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba00063.4090...@dmiyu.org
Re: VirtualBox or VMware?
Mark Allums wrote: Windows users should stick with MS Virtual Server. Everyone else should use VMWare or Xen or KVM or Virtualbox. Oh hell no. VirtualPC hasn't been seriously updated in years, has been plagued with performance problems from its inception and on machines which support AMD-V/VT-x it likes to bluescreen the host OS if you try to do anything remotely complex; like run more than one VM at a time or run VMs under two different virtualizers. IE, it is the typical Microsoft schlock which should be avoided if at all possible. Granted, VirtualBox as of the 3.x series has had some serious network problems as well as some odd issues with Windows guests on Windows hosts but at least it doesn't blue screen the host OS and when fighting for the AMD-V/VT-x extensions and encounters a problem, fails gracefully. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: VirtualBox or VMware?
Mark Allums wrote: Virtual PC is dead in the water. With Windows 7, MS has gone the hypervisor route. Virtual Server 2008 and later is a new(er) product. Not everyone is on W7. For example my work machine, where I require VMs the most, is on WinXP. I'm sure not upgrading it to W7 on my dime. ;) has been plagued with performance problems from its inception and on machines which support AMD-V/VT-x it likes to bluescreen the host OS if you try to do anything remotely complex; like run more than one VM at a time or run VMs under two different virtualizers. IE, it is the typical Microsoft schlock which should be avoided if at all possible. Let me repeat: If you are doiong Windows (only), stick to MS product. Everyone else, ignore that. And let me reiterate, even if you are doing Windows only. IE, Windows host, Windows Guest, steer clear of Microsoft's solution as it is complete crap. I think it's pretty rude to quote where I point out the numerous problems with Microsoft's tripe and then nudge people towards it. Virtualbox 3 got off to a rugged start, but six updates later, it is not too bad. I use it. As of 3.0.6 my WinXP and Linux guests (on a WinXP host) gets this odd bug where it cannot open new programs. Programs already running continue to run. The only solution is to power-off the VM since, to exit, the guest needs to start new a new program. It took me forever to get back to a stable 2.2.4 install which let me run my VMs again without that bug happening. As that's on my work machine and I often swap between several different VMs in a night and need them to Just Work(tm) I've not tried anything after 3.0.6 and certainly avoid VPC. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: VirtualBox or VMware?
Steve Reilly wrote: why cant you just use openoffice? it will read wordperfect files, and save as whatever you want to. He did mention the formatting would be lost. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Is Squeeze right for me?
John Jason Jordan wrote: Today I have two main motivations for going to Debian: 1) It's time to expand my knowledge of Linux, and I have no huge computer projects underway at the moment. If it is for academic purposes why sacrifice the stability you have thus far enjoyed for learning. Or, from another perspective, why not learn a little more and be able to do both? Install VirtualBox on your Ubuntu partition. Run Debian inside the VM to learn it if that is your goal. You can make a clean install, set a snapshot to that point, then go about breaking the system, tweaking it, doing things you might not otherwise do and when all else is said and done, if you can't recover normally, just reset back to the snapshot. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Is Squeeze right for me?
John Jason Jordan wrote: However, several Linux friends have suggested it's time for me to move on. According to the advice I receive I no longer need the Ubuntu training wheels and I would be better served by going to a less newbie-oriented distro. I am going to take a different direction than the few answers I've seen thus far. I call this into question. I offer myself up as an example. I have been using Debian since shortly before the libc5 to glib2 (libc6) conversion. IE, started on Bo (1997), slightly before Hamm (1998). That's 6-7 years before Ubuntu's first release in 2004. Here are my Linux machines and the distros they use: Olethros - Leased Xen VM for web/mail/ftp presence on the net. Debian. Teleute - Router/Samba server for my local network. Debian Morpheus - Desktop/Game Machine (dual-boot w/W7) - Ubuntu Mania - Dell Mini 10v Netbook, my carry/use everywhere machine. - Ubuntu I question the notion that Ubuntu is somehow a lesser distro that one outgrows. By what you've written I should have never started using Ubuntu since I supposedly outgrew it years before it existed! Yet it is the Distro I use most often as virtually all of my web browsing email correspondence is performed on my Netbook running Dell's remix of Ubuntu 8.04. The only desire I have for this machine is to have a newer release (9.10, anyone?) of Ubuntu; preferably KUbuntu. Not Debian, not Mandrake, Fedora Core, Puppy Linux or who knows what other distros. Would I make an argument for Debian on servers? Hell yes. I think it is the premiere server distro and would fight tooth and nail to get it on any server that I were responsible for. But for your personal machine? Does Ubuntu work for you? Is it reliable? IE, is there any reason you're looking at another distro other than some friend's snobbery when it comes to what is a real distro and what isn't? If the answers are yes, yes and no, simple. Tell them to get bent and keep on with what works for *you*. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Mini 10v
Osamu Aoki wrote: If so, why not configuring exim or postfix as non-resident. It can be done. Why not? U, which is what I was telling the OP who posed the question. Dunno why you're telling me. If resource is issue, reducing eye candies have real impact. Just because something /else/ takes up more resources doesn't mean people want to be willy-nilly with little-used resources. As I pointed out to the other fellow all off the applets I run serve a purpose at the time I run them. If they didn't I don't run them! Same as the dozens of other applets for the panel as well as the dozens of other applications I have installed on this machine. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Mini 10v
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 09:39:14PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: Considering the class of machine this is (highly portable, personal machine) it is highly unlikely that it would ever needs a resident MTA. Odd. My highly portable, personal laptop runs an MTA (which doubles as an MDA) that I use for sending both local and remote mail. The MTA just uses my VPS as a smarthost for remote mail, but it handles local mail so I can get notifications from cron, anacron, at, etc. And yet I fail to see why this is directed at me. Also I don't get this fetish for having mail delivered locally. nullmailer works just fine forwarding to a smarthost. Add in an alias for r...@localhost to your remote mail and the mail is now somewhere you normally get mail. Local just adds to the workload needlessle. All UNIX and Linux boxes should have an MTA. It doesn't always need to listen on 25 or 587, but both postfix and exim4 support that. Which is what non-resident means. If the program isn't resident in memory it can't very well be listening to ports, now can it? Which is what I told the OP. Dunno why everyone's bouncing on my case. I'm not the one who wants to deliver local. I've already got my stuff sorted out, thanks. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Mini 10v
Tzafrir Cohen wrote: So now compare the overhead of those applets (CPU, memory, anything else?) to the applets you have running. This is a flawed analogy. Each one of those applets are ones that serve some purpose to me at the moment. I use the menu dozens of times a night, the workspace switcher hundreds, window buttons hundreds, I glance at the clock all the time, monitor the weather most nights and the icons in the tray provide me with useful information. An MTA resident in memory being used once a day, if that, is not serving me an immediate purpose. Considering the class of machine this is (highly portable, personal machine) it is highly unlikely that it would ever needs a resident MTA. Is the saving really worth it? What are the actual problems with the exim? Nothing. I use Exim on the machine hosting my domain. The machine that processes several thousand messages a day. The machine where having a resident MTA makes sense. On a machine where I don't look at local mail, won't be serving mail, having it resident makes no sense. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Lightweight alternative MTA? [was: Re: Starting MTA:]
Andrei Popescu wrote: Besides (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) cron doesn't need an MTA listening on port 25, it uses /sbin/sendmail. Ok, first response was that nullmailer might work. Is the intent to get it to another MTA which doe the final delivery nullmailer works. If it is for delivery on the local machine then you need an MTA/MDA. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lightweight alternative MTA? [was: Re: Starting MTA:]
Andrei Popescu wrote: Well the requirements were: - respects /etc/aliases - able to do local delivery Then you need an MTA/MDA and just don't run it in daemon mode. I fail to see what the issue is with Exim in that case. If runsize for the transient time it is delivering mail is a problem maybe Postfix with its non-monolithic architecture would help; but you'll need an MDA in that case (Exim fills both roles). Personally I don't understand why one wants local delivery of those messages. I toss nullmailer on my machines, have it deliver to my domain's MTA and get delivered to my normal email. If I went the local delivery route I'd have 5 different local accounts to monitor. :/ -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lightweight alternative MTA? [was: Re: Starting MTA:]
Andrei Popescu wrote: - I don't want to run a listening MTA on some machine just for that Then don't run it in daemon mode. Not seeing the problem here. It isn't like when it is called locally it binds to port 25. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lightweight alternative MTA? [was: Re: Starting MTA:]
Tzafrir Cohen wrote: Not running a daemon means that you have the overhead of startup for each new delivery. It implies less efficient handling of a queued mail. Given that he is doing this for local messages from daemons only I think resident memory is the primary concern, not efficiency of once or twice a day deliveries. Something I can understand given that I've moved most of my productivity work to a Dell Mini. The thought of having an MTA resident all the time doesn't exactly fill me with glee. Not that this machine can't handle it (it is more capable than most people think) but because this machine has no business having a resident MTA. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Mini 10v (was: Lightweight alternative MTA?)
Tzafrir Cohen wrote: What desktop are you running there? I bounce between Dell's 8.04 GNome and UNR 9.04 GNome. I'm not too keen on GNome but haven't had the bug to move to XFCE or KDE. I many bounce between the two because Dell's 8.04 has better hardware support while UNR 9.04 has newer software. How many panel applets? Single panel on the bottom (really dislike the top panel fetish GNome and Mac both have) with 9 applets. Menu, open windows, CPU Frequency monitor, CPU/RAM/Swap monitor, tray, audio, Clock/Weather, desktop swap, trash. Ever since I got this machine it has handled all my productivity work. Bought a Logitech V470 so I just toss the Mini and the mouse into my bag and off I go. The only thing it cannot handle which I nominally miss is Youtube HD videos. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: CPU default frequency is at 75%
Stefan Monnier wrote: Nowadays, power management is important for all machines nowadays, and Not to the point where it overrides user preference or causes problems with the machine. I've got one machine where every time the power manager decided to adjust my CPU speed the entire machine froze for 2-3 seconds until the power manager got the word my CPU doesn't scale. So 15s later it tried again. Having your machine freeze every 15s for 2-3s is not usable. The lengths I went to to rip out power management was excessive. There aught to be a simple Shut up, Mr. Scott and give me all she's got! button, period. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Tbird Reply To List (was Re: List Ettiquette)
Brad Rogers wrote: On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 16:36:39 -0700 Marc Shapiro mshapiro...@yahoo.com wrote: Hello Marc, As Brad said, it does not appear to be included in the outgoing mail, If it were, I would hope something somewhere would complain about the empty header, rather than just silently ignore it, even though a valid header exists. Er, you do know there's little correlation between the to and cc headers with what goes on at SMTP time? Those headers exist for the client, not the server. To the server they are completely in the data block and aren't anything to complain about. As for the client side I don't recall if 2822 states there can only be one of those headers. After a quick check with the all knowing oracle, Google, looks like to and cc can have a minimum of 0 and a max of 1. But that's for the clients to complain about. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Emacs
Teemu Likonen wrote: If I start the same Emacs and Vim executables in a text terminal mode the numbers are 27 MB for Emacs and 30 MB for Vim. So it would seem that Emacs is a bit lighter than full-featured Vim. Both editors can be compiled with smaller set of features which may make them even lighter. U, I dunno what you have in your vim but that is not the standard text mode vim, I can assure you... grey 9287 0.8 0.2 5464 2560 pts/0S+ 06:43 0:00 vim 2.5Mb. You're off by over a factor. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Emacs
Teemu Likonen wrote: Memory usage can be measured different ways. What we see here is the difference between usage of VSZ and RSS memory. Neither gives the ultimate answer, only a certain point of view. Yes, and neither comes close to 30Mb you cited. Of course what were you using to report the size? I didn't see a ps output in yours, just your word. Nice hand waving, point stands. I don't care what people use. Use what'chu want, just don't misrepresent verifiable facts. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Tbird 3.0 (was Re: List Ettiquette)
Ron Johnson wrote: Snicker Besides features already enabled via Addons? Shredder (Tbird 3.0) has it built directly into the client now. No need for Mnenhy + replytolist. They finally, fi-nal-ly, hashed out some what to present the options to reply-to-list. While for people who found replytolist and got it to work (*cough*) this may not be huge news but for others it will be quite nice. Besides, it'll be nice even if you had replytolist working all this time to just be able to tell people to use the feature that you know is now there without further explanation. It would've cut down at least half-a-dozen replies in this thread alone. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: List Ettiquette
Chris Jones wrote: You're in mutt, you hit r for reply to poster instead of L for reply to list and this annoying Reply-To: list causes the To: header that is automatically created to point to the list instead of the poster's private address. Oh, doesn't even need to be in mutt or a single list. I monitor both Debian-User and Ubuntu-User since I run flavors of both. D-U has no reply-to, U-U does. So here when I hit reply in TBird I had to (until recently) remember to change it from the personal address to the list address. While there it just goes to the list. I caught a few of those in time, but sooner or later you forget to check before hitting y (send). 'cept I also carry on private banter with a few people from either lists. Stuff that's just OT or a tad too snarky for public consumption. Here, not a problem as I had to actively change the address. There... forget one time... and post a URL to a blog posting describing a novel way of handling USPS spam from religious organizations by using escort ads from downtown Las Vegas in the return envelopes... . That one was a doozy. :D -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Tbird Reply To List (was Re: List Ettiquette)
Ken Heard wrote: Am I doing something wrong? Overthinking it? I just downloaded, went to TBird, Tools - Addons - Install and chose the file from my download directory. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: List Ettiquette
Kevin Ross wrote: It's true I'm currently using Outlook from my Windows computer. But when I'm at a Linux computer, I use Icedove, with the same results. v3.0 you can get addons to add that functionality in. 3.0 it is built directly into the client... finally! Same with SquirrelMail webmail client. Except for you you enable the addon which adds that functionality in. An addon which has shipped with the Debian package of Squirrelmail for as long as I have had Squirrelmail on my server (4-5 years now?) -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Tbird Reply To List (was Re: List Ettiquette)
Ron Johnson wrote: These are the two which I need: mnenhy replytolist Reply To List will still be greyed out, though, until within Mnenhy you enable Extended Normal View. And don't forget that you can customize the toolbar to add the RTL icon. ... You know, every time this topic came up you would mention replytolist and I would point out it never worked for me. I think we've had that exchange publicly at least 2-3 times and privately at least once. Except you never previously mentioned what specific settings you needed in Mnenhy. So on a whim, and since I'm on a new install of TBird (Dell Mini, baby) I decided, what the hell, give it another try. It worked. o.O Thanks for putting the specifics out there. :D -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Is there any security risk using p2p client ?
Dave Sherohman wrote: If you're verifying the checksum, then you implicitly don't trust the're file 100%. [ snippage ] Always obtain your checksums via an alternate (cryptographically- secured) path, not directly from the data they're being used to verify. Wow, failure to understand torrents. Ok, if we obtain the .torrent from a Debian site then it is a de facto checksum. The .torrent contains a checksum for every block of the torrent. IE, the checksum is not coming from the file you're downloading via the P2P client, it came from the (presumably) secure source you're advising them to go to after the fact. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: OT: Re: Gmail filtering. NOT OT
Steve Kemp wrote: Seriously this is way off-topic for the list. Yeah, you couldn't be more wrong on that. I always giggle when someone tries to declare something OT here. Lemme know how that works out for you. ;) -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] The perfect system ...
Douglas A. Tutty wrote: Determine what you want the box to do. If its only watching movies, most new computers with a decent video card will do that as is and isn't anything special. Heck, until I figured out a method to stream video to my XBox360 I was watching video on my ~10 year old Dell Latitude CPx. 667Mhz CPU and a 32Mb, non-3D video card. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Meaning of score when looking for package solutions
On Friday 22 May 2009 03:43:32 am David wrote: But, like I said before, I don't know if this is exactly how it works. The above is mostly my theory based on observations of aptitude's behavior. I think this would be Debian's case of Deep Magic... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_programming str-str_pok |= SP_FBM; /* deep magic */ s = (unsigned char*)(str-str_ptr); /* deeper magic */ --Larry Wall in util.c from the perl source code -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Reply-to-list in TBird.
I know a few people are interested in this feature in TBird and, like me, have issues with the current addon which provides similar functionality. This just came through bugzilla. - --- Comment #184 from Bryan W Clark (:clarkbw) clar...@gnome.org 2009-05-08 18:18:29 PDT --- Blake, I'm guessing you don't have much time for this at this point. I'm adding sid0 to the CC so if that's true sid can take over this patch. I feel like this piece is pretty necessary so I'm marking it blocking again and targeting b3 even though I know it's too tight so it could slip and block the next release. - They're actually pushing to get it in for v3. Even though it could slip that suggest they'll hold it for 3.1 at the latest. Kind of ironic since about a week and a half ago I just settled into using KMail comfortably. ;) -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: top-posting
Dotan Cohen wrote: Why did you think that I killfiled you there? I remember getting in the crossfire between you and someone else a few months ago, but I don't remember there ever being a problem between us. Well, shoot, I know someone did and thought it was you. Was for something rather mild, too. Oh well, my apologies, Dotan. I'm just all over the board on this thread aren't I. I blame it on the flu I've got. *cough, cough* Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket! -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: top-posting
karun wrote: Top Posting is an unfortunate side effect, of Microsoft Outlook becoming the standard for non Opensource computer software users. Outlook as an excuse for top-posting went out the window circa 2002. http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ Also the base Outlook can be configured to make interleave responses possible. Not pretty, mind, but possible. Having been forced to use Lookout! at work for the past several years I do know that much. ;) -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: top-posting
Tzafrir Cohen wrote: Top-posting works great in places where you have a common archive and thus don't have to carry the full context in your message. Er, what? Top-posting requires you to carry the *full* context of the entire thread in every message! -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: top-posting
Dotan Cohen wrote: Yes, there are those who over react. And no, I didn't killfile you! [ snippage ] Just like I had seen only your post, and not Steve's. Know that that is likely to happen before you decide to be violent or troll. The irony here is that the reason this is so is because Dotan's got me killfilled for my messages over on KU-U, a forum on which I am far, far, more restrained when compared to D-U. ;) -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Why did you chose Debian over CentOS?
Raleigh Guevarra wrote: Why did you chose Debian over CentOS to host dozens of websites? When I chose Debian, CentOS didn't exist. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Why did you chose Debian over CentOS?
Joe McDonagh wrote: Most claims about RH are the in the beginning type and it's like do people *really* still hold that against them? They still use RPM? Of course I really still hold it against them. BTW, don't top post. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Why did you chose Debian over CentOS?
Joe McDonagh wrote:
At the risk of starting a huge religious war:
About top posting vs. actually formatting your messages intelligently?
1. Preseed vs. kickstart
If you're only running at home or only a few machines at work, you're
not going to run into this. Once you're done a RH install a .ks file is
dropped under /root. You can now use this file to kickstart identical
machines in PXE in a couple of minutes. There is no such automatic
generation in Debian.
I take it you've never heard of dpkg --set-selections and dpkg
--get-selections?
2. The disarray of configuration files vs centralized system config dir
In RH you have /etc/sysconfig. Almost every single system configuration
file is under here. In Debian, anything goes.
/etc/default... But traditionally, yeah, /etc/ is where config files go.
3. RPM vs DPKG query subsystem.
No, not yum vs. apt-get or aptitude or aptsomethingelse. To find
information with dpkg seems difficult and unwieldy. Example: Say you
want to find what package a specific file belongs to. With dpkg you
should a dpkg-query -s to search the cache. I don't like that.
Then learn your commands?
I just want to know what package a given file on the filesystem belongs
to. rpm -qf $FILE, done. The query system is general in rpm is simple yet
robust.
{g...@teleute:~} dpkg -S `which mutt`
mutt: /usr/bin/mutt
{g...@teleute:/lib} dpkg -S libnss_files-2.7.so
libc6-i686: /lib/i686/cmov/libnss_files-2.7.so
libc6-xen: /lib/i686/nosegneg/libnss_files-2.7.so
libc6: /lib/libnss_files-2.7.so
dpkg-query just doesn't do it for me. And I also don't like how
there are a bunch of dpkg-* files that split up various functions of the
dpkg system.
You know, I never even heard of dpkg-query until you just brought it up.
I've been using Debian for 10 flippin' years. For those 10 years I have used
four commands in dpkg.
dpkg -s - show a package's description
dpkg -S - search for a pattern in packages
dpkg -l - list all packages
dpkg -L - list all files in a package
That is pretty much the extent that I have to know about dpkg without
referring to --help once every, o, 3-4 years.
Before all of Debian users pass a brick, this is mostly preference,
except #1 is pretty hard to deny that RH makes your life a *lot* easier
in that dept.
Nope, pretty much all preference, and based out of ignorance at that.
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Why did you chose Debian over CentOS?
Joe McDonagh wrote: know better. Also, I was under the (right) impression that dpkg-query -S (dpkg -S) is a string search, which is a different operation than rpm -qf, though they can yield the same results. Not that it makes a practical difference. Unless the debian-list rules state top posting is 'illegal' then I will continue to top post. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but if you want to insult me, do it with a little more spice than calling me stupid in a roundabout way. Might want to check the list archives on that before going too much further. Given the relatively hands-off approach the mods take with D-U a lot of D-U runs on convention. Run afoul of that at your own peril. dpkg --get-selections actually I had never heard of til now. I ran it and it told me NOTHING. What packages are installed woo. I looked at the man page and that's apparently its function. If you think that's all kickstart does then obviously, I am not the ignorant one. Nope, just don't see the need for kickstart when other methods suffice. BTW, you missed the point where --set-selections is the reverse of --get-selections. Thanks. Tell me, where in a preseed do you set up LVM over RAID through d-i? Or how about you recall for me how recent the addition of automatic raid is to partman-auto? Ask me if it really matters to me when we've been going off disc-images for about as many years. Any case where disc images don't work kickstart would not either. Actually, I take that back, disc images work in places were kickstart cannot. RH had been doing this for years, to top it off they drop a kickstart file for you under /root. I'm still actually kind of appalled that a list-nerd is insulting me yet tells me to use a command that doesn't even give appropriate info (dpkg --get-selections). Gives you the packages for that particular installation. Throw it into a text file, set them on another install with --set-selections and, surprise there Keanu, the exact same packages are installed! You may say whoa now. 2. The disarray of configuration files vs centralized system config dir In RH you have /etc/sysconfig. Almost every single system configuration file is under here. In Debian, anything goes. /etc/default... But traditionally, yeah, /etc/ is where config files go. ooohhh really? Keen observation Steve! Thanks for that crumb kind sir. Got any other gems? Hey, I'm not the one who lamented configuration files being in /etc of all places. Really, they moved some, SOME, locations of /etc into a new directory for you and this is news? grep -r, man! Cripes. /etc/sysconfig/network /etc/network o, that was hard. /etc/config/sendmail /etc/exim4 Yikes, who'da thunk it? Geez, now that I look at what's in there it has less than /etc/default. /etc/ is where the standard configuration goes. Emphasis on S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D. /etc/default is where Debian specific defaults (see what they did there, sparky?) go. I would say I am pretty handy with the command-line, but then again, top-posters are sub-human dummies. And people say top-posters can't learn. Have a cookie. Wow Steve 10 whole years! zomg I didn't even know Leenuckz existed in 1999. That's the last millenia! Innit! Of course you took that as epeen waving when it was just pointing out that clearly it is possible to do without dpkg-query just fine. If you think writing your own preseed is easier than just consuming a file already written for you with what you chose during an install then you are delusional. No, I just prefer other methods which are far simpler. Identical hardware? Image. Disparate hardware? dpkg --get/--set-selections. Virtual hardware? Image. You can have a sane conversation about this vs that without talking to someone like they are mildly retarded. Sorry, the difference between the mildly retarded and someone who hasn't figured out the basics is that the mildly retarded may actually be incapable of learning. Someone who hasn't learned the basics is just a tool and deserves the ridicule and mocking because they are clearly capable, just too damn lazy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Slow Script
Dave Sherohman wrote: Given that the posted loop is operating entirely on Perl in-memory arrays, the OP is unlikely to be deliberately[1] accessing the disk during this process. TBH given the fragment he posted there's no way to help him. There isn't enough there to make any meaningful suggestions. Ya can't exactly squeeze more speed out of Perl's for loop because, well, it only goes so fast and without knowing what he's working with there's no sane way to suggest an alternative which may be faster. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Speeding up Debian Boot
Dean Chester wrote: Is there anyway i can speed up debians boot time. Its embarrassing that Vista boots up quicker than debian. I'd be shocked to find any machine on which that is true considering my KUbuntu install boots to the desktop faster than XP as measured in minutes. Vista is well beyond XP on boot speed. However there's the ol' parallel trick as well as trying to implement the boot sequence from Pardus (please, Debian, pleease!). -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] Pros and Cons of Gmail [WAS] Re: Lenny: which arch for a Intel Core 2 Duo?
Bob Cox wrote:
So long as you have a static IP which is from a block recognised as such
(which amongst other things means it is not listed in dul.dnsbl) AND
have valid a valid rDNS (PTR record) in place then you can send to these
people ok. I've been doing it for years.
That's the problem, the rDNS. Most of the large email providers don't
make a distinction between the dynamic IP pool and the static IP pool of ISP.
Some, AOL for example, will allow mail if your reverse DNS matches.
However the large ISPs that control DSL/Cable over on this side of the pond
will happily sell you $5/month for a static IP but will not change the reverse
DNS.
In fact I got into a lovely argument over this with a representative of my
DSL provider. At the time they were partnered with Earthlink. He was trying
to blow smoke up my ass about how hard it was to change a reverse DNS entry.
Then I cited him chapter and verse on how to do it in bind.
Then he backed off and said they had 400,000 static IP customers and the
churn made it impractical. I told him at $2 million/month revenue it most
certainly was not impractical and that my old job was writing the back-end
scripts for the provisioning of new users on Earthlink's Pasadena web farm.
Chances are that his actions brought him in contact with scripts I wrote.
For just 10% of one month's revenue I'd be more than happy to go into
their hosting pipeline and automate provisioning of reverse DNS so all he had
to do was enter the IP name in a web form and click OK. User
cancellations would trigger a restore to their normal reverse DNS scheme.
He finally just said they don't do it and would not argue about it any
more. *shrug*
Sooo, yeah, that's pretty much why I now pay an extra $25/month for a
256Mb VM to run DNS, web (for webmail), smtp, pop and imap. Because of the
lack of competition in the DSL/Cable market hosting it on my dual-core, 2GB,
glorified-router of a file-server at home is thwarted.
Sorry about that...
/soapbox
--
Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream
PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do
---+-
signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] Pros and Cons of Gmail [WAS] Re: Lenny: which arch for a Intel Core 2 Duo?
Ron Johnson wrote: Which is why if you want privacy *and* address independence, you need to spend the extra effort to get a dynamic DNS address and run your own IMAPS server, and probably a web server, too, with squirrelmail. DynDNS has problems since you will get blocked on outbound mail. Even with a static IP it is next to impossible to mail AOhelL, Yahoo! or Google. Find a decent VM vendor and lease a 256Mb box. :D -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
Ron Johnson wrote: On 01/07/09 05:30, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: iceape-mailnews ;-) The MUA that starts with Ice and isn't the red-headed step-child... Ice ice baby? Da dun nun da nunnun? -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
Ron Johnson wrote: My User-Agent string is a lot more rich than yours. Are you purposefully minimizing it, or could it be a co-symptom of what ever is the real reason why r-t-l doesn't work for you? Probably not. This one better? Still no r-t-l here. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
Ron Johnson wrote: My User-Agent string is a lot more rich than yours. Are you purposefully minimizing it, or could it be a co-symptom of what ever is the real reason why r-t-l doesn't work for you? Yours seems to be inflated for some reason. Here's yours: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.17) Gecko/20081018 Thunderbird/2.0.0.17 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 Here's mine from my desktop (KUbuntu 8.10, TBird 2.0.0.18, Enigmail 0.95, reply-to-list 0.2.0): User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) And from my server box (Debian testing updated this morning, TBird 2.0.0.17, Enigmail 0.95, reply-to-list 0.2.0): User-Agent: Mozilla-Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (X11/20081018) I have RTL 0.2.0 on there from a suggestion you made a while back about 0.3.1 not playing nice with IMAP while the older version did. Older versions needed either Mnenhy(which you have) or Enigmail(which I have) to work. 0.3.0 does not need either. But here's the kick in the nads I just read on the web page for it. The preview pane needs to be open and I turn that idiotic crap off. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
Steve Lamb wrote: I have RTL 0.2.0 on there from a suggestion you made a while back about 0.3.1 not playing nice with IMAP while the older version did. Older versions needed either Mnenhy(which you have) or Enigmail(which I have) to work. 0.3.0 does not need either. But here's the kick in the nads I just read on the web page for it. The preview pane needs to be open and I turn that idiotic crap off. All of this looks confirmed. I installed 0.2.1, reply-to-list still did not work, pane open or not. Installed 0.3.0 and TBird crashes any time I open up a message. So I would need 0.2.0 or 0.2.1, neither of which work. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
Ron Johnson wrote: Are you using stock Tbird, or Iceweasel? (I/w has certain patches needed by r-t-l.) Stock from Ubuntu/Debian packaging respectively. Both of which have had the patch as part of the Debian version for close to 2 years now (I think). -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: I prefer a sieve, the standard language for server-side mail filtering, implementation on my IMAP (and managesieve) server. If only mail clients would incorporate sieve into their normal filtering. IE, my dad probably can't write sieve filters but he can use the fairly common filter dialogs which could, with minimal effort, just be a front end for sieve filters. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
Michelle Konzack wrote: flamewar=start Maildrop is the last thing one would install... The same for Sieve. If you try to konfigure those blobs you will get knots and cancer in your brain. /flamewar Glad to see you're as rational as ever. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
Ron Johnson wrote: God must not love you. Being an Atheist I'm used to it. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: I agree and there has been work on that. However, I've yet to see a good UI for composing sieve scripts. I think one of the webmail packages SquirelMail(?) or RoundCube(?) has the beginning of a UI. Squirrelmail, with the appropriate addon activated. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
Ken Teague wrote: Is Kmail available for Win32? I'm at work on my laptop and don't have the luxury of Linux all day. http://windows.kde.org/ I also stated in my previous post that the reply-to field was missing from the SMTP header. I can manually add it from my MUA (as I did with this mailing) but must I need to for each and every message I reply to on this mailing list? Is it the MUA that's broken?... or the mailing list? MUA, since RFC2369 reply-to pointing back to the list (which became invalid in RFC2822) is no longer needed. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
Ron Johnson wrote: Install the Reply To List add-on, v0.2.1 or v0.3.0, depending on whether you access IMAP or not. Works perfectly. For you... Still not working here. :P signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
(Apologies to Boyd, been a while since I replied to D-U, got out of the habit of reply-to-all and trim. ;) Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: See, I just think you guys should stop using bad clients. ;) Kmail replies to the list (and only to the list) by default. (Which, actually, appears to be a violation on the relevant standards. :P) Of course KMail has other warts. Like one of the most inefficient IMAP implementations. Even worse than mutt's. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] mailing lists versus usenet / reply to list, reply-to, reply
Ron Johnson wrote: You've got to be doing something wrong... Installed Thunderbird, installed Enigmail, downloaded reply-to-list, both versions, installed them, neither work. Can't mess than up Ron, even for me. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Difference between Lenny/testing?
The difference is Testing Bruce never took to the stage like his brother. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Confusion about legality of Linux
Nate Bargmann wrote: I do hope that she comes away from this experience not embarrassed and angry, but rather with an appreciation of the path of learning that her students would like to voluntarily take. Maybe I haven't mellowed out as much with age as I thought but I hope to hell she goes away deeply embarrassed. If she had just made the simple mistake and learned from it, fine, no worries. No, she took student's property. The fact it may have been given away free is immaterial, it is still the student's property until they choose whom to give it to, regardless of price or lack thereof. Then she compounded the problem by pretty much hauling that student in for disciplinary action. Note for those who would defend her she not once mentioned a disruption of class. So the best we can determine is that it was based solely on her flawed perceptions. The icing on the cake, however, is that she sent an email full of factual errors, ignorance and culminating with the threat of legal action. The cherry on top? She sent it to someone who works (founded?) a project which refurbishes computers and *gives* them to children in school who would otherwise not have one! And, oh, and said he was harming their education. Because we all know that no computer is better than a computer running something other than the latest from Redmond! It is not making the mistake that she should be embarrassed for. She ran with her mistake like a 300lb lineman who sees the opportunity for sacking the quarterback. Her mistake? SHE SACKED HER OWN QUARTERBACK! Yeah, you ever see an NFL lineman make that mistake you try to say he shouldn't feel embarrassed. She should get that much, and more. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Q: List Policy
On Monday 24 November 2008 02:31:53 Chris Bannister wrote: True, I uderstand that, but my thoughts are concerning newbies who post to the list and not being subscribed won't see a reply to their post. How many archives for the list exist? They have methods of finding the reply; often in the same manner they found the list in the first place. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Q: List Policy
On Monday 24 November 2008 02:32:14 Chris Bannister wrote: What harm? What's worse; rec a CC or missing out on crucial help/information? That depends, whose perspective? We are talking about newbies here. No, we're talking about the list in general and how a policy to coddle newbies effects it. Which is why the question above. To the newbie who can't figure out go to the same place you went to post to get an answer the harm is that they don't get a reply. To the list where the policy is to CC on every message every person who participates has to enact some sort of manual or automatic filtering for the plethora of cruft with which they will be inundated. Most people are newbies once. Having to filter useless CCs is a lifetime problem. So on balance the more harm goes to the inconvenience of dozens to thousands of people in perpetuity. At its core a CC-everyone-on-all-list-replies is harmful in the exact same manner filtering spam via Challenge-Reponse is harmful. http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Mail/challenge-response.html It foists the responsibility which should land on the individual onto many innocent third parties. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Q: List Policy
On Sunday 23 November 2008 03:09:04 Teemu Likonen wrote: It's usually about using the correct clients and configuration, mailing list configuration, Reply-To and Mail-Followup-To usage etc. So far nobody has managed to convince everybody that their system is the best one. Hence my point: there is no perfect universally agreed policy and we just have to live with it. Problem is that this one can be quantified in what is harmful. It isn't a matter of preferences but of facts. A related suggestion is that it is quite pointless to present arguments in terms of if you used this client and had this feature because there is a zoo of different ways of receiving and reading mail and in general pretty much only Reply and Reply to all buttons work reliably. With these limitations the large body of people tend to use the means which are the most convenient and least painful for _them_. Yes. But as has been pointed out on this, and many other lists, when something causes extra work for the large portion of people then it is not something that should be done for the convenience of certain people based on their preferences in software. IE, the appropriate response on this, and many, many, other forums is that the person who is insisting the community add extra work to all members to appease them is told to shove it and change their behaviors. CCing caused work for more people. Filtering replies sent to you via the list causes work for one person. That's not preference, that's simple mathematics. N 1 when N is the entire userbase of the mailing list. Anyone arguing preference for CCing is arguing for work for all people involved. Put plainly, opinion vs. facts. Facts when when opinion are contrary to them. Just that simple. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Q: List Policy
Teemu Likonen wrote: This is the last one: I suggest that you try to see norms of communication in social terms and concepts, not mathematical. The email-using world, as I see it, is mainly social. What you're missing is that I am seeing them in social terms as well. I see them in terms of not what is present but what should be. I see it in terms of what is fairest for all involved even if it involves some personal responsibility on the part of all involved vs. the chaos of apathy, rudeness and selfishness. I just happen to be able to back that up with well thought out, logical reasons which most people tend to ignore in their quest to defend the hypocritical status quo. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Q: List Policy
Chris Bannister wrote: Quite right, but why discourage CCing on an open list? I can see the point in not CCing on a closed list. For the same reasons. Whether the list is open or closed is irrelevant to the harm that CCing people unbidden causes. A list being open or closed is also irrelevant to the fact that it is incumbent on the sender to ensure they receive replies, capable of finding replies or requesting copies if they cannot fulfill the previous two trivial tasks. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Q: List Policy
On Saturday 22 November 2008 04:15:42 Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: Actually, to be very blunt: CCing people is absolutely the only way to deal with massive ammounts of email and very-high-traffic lists when you *care* about not ignoring email that you should have read. That is absolute, 100% pure rubbish. This is solvable by technical means, right now, today, if email client authors would just implement a feature that has been standard for decades in forums that far outstrip the volume of mailing lists, newsgroups. The feature? Scoring. Even now if you post on a high volume mailing lists there is absolutely no excuse to miss a message that is posted to it if you're really interested. FilteronReferences or in-reply-to! Here are the relevant headers from your message: References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Since, at least in KMail, I can set any prefix in my MSGID I put a static string there then filter on an In-Reply-To that starts with that string and ends with @dmiyu.org, highlight it, filter it into a different folder, whatever. I don't miss mail and I don't require a harmful, blanket policy that annoys many people and wastes resources. If you want an example of a CC policy radically different from Debian's, take a look at the development mailinglists for the Linux kernel and all related projects. There, the policy is that you are to *always* CC everyone that should (or might even remotely need to) get an email, in addition to sending it to the lists. Otherwise, the chances that such an email will be lost in the ocean of stuff, or never reach the right people. To be blunt, if those people can't figure out how to filter on In-Reply-To they have no business hacking the kernel. IMO the truth behind the CC policy in Debian lists is that it is the policy not to do so for a LONG time now, and a lot of people is bothered by CCs, so they resist any such changes (note: I am NOT judging whether they're right or wrong for doing that, if one could even classify such an issue in that way). Sorry, but it is a sane method of doing so. Quite frankly if I put inject something into a conversation and it later turns a different direction that doesn't interest me I can simply stop reading those messages. Or, to put it another way, you can unsubscribe from a list. You can't unsubscribe from a CC list. IMO, the reason many people are bothered by the CCs is that the typical DM, DD and Debian user just plain don't *care* about stuff from debian-user/-policy/-private/* bothering him all the time. He'd rather ignore it completely until he decides to read that ML folder, if ever. I'm pretty sure you're wrong on that. In the end, it boils down to the fact that most people have lame mail filtering setups that cannot sort delivery mailboxes in the right priority and do proper destination-based duplicate supression (so that you can get automated if it is also destined to a Debian ML, file into the ML folder, and have any further duplicates supressed), and are not in any hurry to deploy one. Uh-huh. If that's the case then why CC? Sorry, there is absolutely 0 cases where CCing when unrequested is appropriate. Your volume argument is complete rubbish. Forcing people to filter because of other people's inconvenient poor habits is akin to the harm done by C-R. Finally, don't think I don't get the cute idea of you CCing me this message. I am not amused, don't do it again. I have never ask for a CC from this list and never will. To CC me against the list's CoC clearly shows you're more interesting in trolling than contributing anything meaningful to the conversation. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Q: List Policy
Ron Johnson wrote: (Of course, even if you use a GUI, if you are a geek you should implement fetchmail/getmail, an MTA, a spam filter and procmail or mailfilter and IMAP, so that you can switch MUAs as easily as you switch underwear, or even access your mail from across the LAN or even Internet. But that's a different topic...) Ha, whimp! I change MUAs easier than I switch underwear! :P signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Q: List Policy
On Saturday 22 November 2008 12:49:29 Andrei Popescu wrote: Of the open-source mailers I know only Thunderbird/Icedove doesn't support Reply-To-List by default. Claws-Mail even has a smart Reply button that does Reply-To-List by default if it detects a list. Now it's time for the webmails to implement it. Squirrelmail supports it with an addon which, unlike TBird's, actually works! In fact it also recognizes the list-unsubscribe header, too. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Q: List Policy
On Saturday 22 November 2008 09:39:12 Ron Johnson wrote: Wear fewer clothes... Nah, I change underwear once a day. Most days I move from my home machine which is still on TBird to a work VM on which I test KMail. So 3 client changes an average day vs. 1 underwear change. :) -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Q: List Policy
On Saturday 22 November 2008 10:44:35 Teemu Likonen wrote: Steve Lamb (2008-11-22 04:40 -0800) wrote: That is absolute, 100% pure rubbish. This is solvable by technical means, right now, today, if email client authors would just implement a feature [...] I think that being solvable is not an option. Too many if's in your message. No, there was one. If they implemented scoring. I went on to explain that it is still possible today through other means. Scoring, however, is one of the most efficient ways of handling a large volume of correspondence in a public forum. I feel that email clients would benefit from letting people score mailing lists. But that isn't a requirement to spot mail to you in a list. I'd like to remind everybody that email is a distributed system. Yes, so the axiom of any distributed system applies. *Be CONSERVATIVE IN WHAT YOU SEND, be liberal in what you accept.* Message + CC is not conservative. We can't control what others do, we can only choose what we do ourselves and which mail messages we pay attention to. None of the situations you cited are compelling enough to warrant the complete duplication of every message the list server sends out. Not a one. In short, we don't know how others receive, read and compose their mail, or who are subscribers of certain mailing list (people join and leave all the time). Exactly. That is why we provide CCs *when requested* because that is the *conservative* approach on what to send. We're presuming they can take care of the method of reading replies unless otherwise told. The alternative is hardly conservative. What kind of reply policies and email-client configurations we should enforce for these varying situations? I think they would soon became quite complicated. How do we make people to understand and follow such policies? I have an idea. Provide CCs when requested, draw up a list of acceptable behavior in the list and have people read that before they sign up. Call it a Code of Conduct. Oh... wait... Then there's the Debian way: Reply-To is not pointing to the list address and using Reply to all is discouraged. Some people like this policy. Nevertheless, it causes some difficulties: people sometimes press Reply and thus send mail to the author only while expecting it to go to the list. Sometimes they expect something else. Sometimes people press Reply to all and annoy some other people with carbon-copies and duplicate messages. So even with the Debian way, depending on the point of view, mail sometimes goes to wrong places. But that is not the point. The point isn't to prevent people from sending mail to the wrong place as wrong varies from message to message. The point is which policy sensibly places the least strain on the greatest number of people. Defaulting to CC to all means everyone has to either delete all duplicate messages or implement MDA/MTA/MUA duplicate filters. Simply put *some* people missing *some* mail *some* of the time or *some* people sending mail to the wrong place *some* of the time is less strain on the system as a whole compared to *all* people having to manually or automatically deal with *all* duplicates *all* of the time. This is the reality and it's pretty complicated. I see it as pretty simple. A person posts. They, now, have dozens of ways to check for replies. There is simply no need for a broad CC-everybody because someone, somewhere, for some reason might be incapable of getting some replies. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Q: List Policy
On Saturday 22 November 2008 19:40:14 Ron Johnson wrote: Don't wear underwear? AKA, the commando geek! Certainly one I would hope is able to filter on in-reply-to. ;) -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Q: List Policy
François Cerbelle wrote: Yes, there is some text... But it is acceptable because it did not alter neither what I wrote, nor the meaning of what I wrote. It alters the contents of your message which is exactly what the post I was replying to said should not happen. Now you're providing exceptions to that blanket rule. Of course my point is that altering the content is acceptable under certain situations and some people find altering reply-to in certain situations acceptable whereas you do not. That, of course, does not make your view any more valid than theirs nor your blanket statement at all valid. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Q: List Policy
s. keeling wrote: Are we still waiting for killfiles in Mozilla (et al)'s nntp clients, or did they finally get around to that? Heck if I know. I never used killfiles. Slrn + scoring was all I needed. Yeah, yeah, - is killing but it isn't confined to a single killfile. :D -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Q: List Policy
Ron Johnson wrote: But since most users (and probably developers) of Tbird are on Windows, they just don't have the same ethos as old-time midrange admins, and so I'm just thanking $DEITY that the plugin system exists. Even then there is a huge barrier to entry. I would love to write a plugin for TBird which implements buttons from PMMail/2 (circa 1995). Delete-and-Next, Delete-and-Previous, Delete-And close. Then the same choices for move and copy. They made reading messages in a separate window sane and haven't been seen since. I've tried but TBird's plugin architecture isn't documented as a sole entity. There is no document, that I am aware of, that describes how to write a TBird plugin which doesn't start with To set up your Firefox development environment... Pisses me off to no end. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Q: List Policy
Ron Johnson wrote: It isn't that difficult to create Reply-to-List functionality. Tell that to the TBird developers. We're going on, what, 4 years now and counting? :( -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Q: List Policy
Ron Johnson wrote: Webmail and popular MUAs like Tbird and Lookout make it difficult to follow the no-CC rule. Someone, though, has thoughtfully written a replytolist plugin for Tbird/Icedove. Get v0.3.0 unless you use IMAP, which requires you to use v0.2.1. Huh, first time I ever saw that IMAP didn't work on v0.3.0 of the plugin. Maybe that's why it hasn't been working for me for, ohhh, about a year? :( -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Q: List Policy
Ron Johnson wrote: According to the upstream website (and which I confirmed myself), using v0.3.0 with emails stored in IMAP kills Tbird as soon as you click on Replt-To-List. Actually here it doesn't kill TBird, it just doesn't work. At all. I found 0.2.0 on the addon site but it, too, doesn't work. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Q: List Policy
François Cerbelle wrote: A list should *NEVER* alter the contents of a message and the reply-to field *DOES BELONGS TO THE CONTENTS* of the message. Really? You believe that? *looks at the footer appended to every message* Then, u, a header is the least of your concerns. I look forward to your Don Quixote quest there, bub. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: You are a broken record (was Re: friend cannot see me on msn)
Paul Johnson wrote: Ron, if you can't be nice, please leave the Debian lists. You've been nothing but obnoxious in every reply to one of my messages for months now. It's not appreciated, nor welcome, here. Funny, Paul, people have been thinking the same of you for several years. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: virtual private server? advice requested
Reid Priedhorsky wrote: 5. Cheap, ideally in the $10-15/mo range. This will be the hardest part. Most in the $10-$15 range won't have enough RAM to do the things you want or disc space that you desire. $20/month is a closer price point. Personally I've gotten VMs from tektonik.com(?)/unixshell.com and now vpsland.com. I cannot recommend the first two. Unixshell is their Xen offering which they abandoned quite a while ago. I'm not sure if they restarted that offering but the fact they were so ready to let it go has soured me on them forever. Tektonik (I think that's the name) uses Virtuosso for their VMs. No swap and tiny RAM makes for a very unhappy install. VPSLand is ok. Not great. Their customer support site is not the best, nor is their billing. However I rarely ever have to contact them. They offer Xen with pretty much every major Linux distro. Reasonable prices. I run Apache/Exim/SA on their 256Mb VM which gives me ~8Gb of hard drive space. No problems at all. I think I'm paying just shy (or barely over) $20/month. As for Google-fu I would recommend searching on Xen Debian. The last time I tried that there were no shortage of hits. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: How to apt-get over ssh tunnel through a firewall?
Osamu Aoki wrote: Run squid on A and let others access it. You need to set http_proxy environment variable or use apt.conf setting for all A,B,C. Then you save bandwidth. Or use apt-cache. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Adding a dash and then a number
jmdennis @dslextreme.com wrote: I am using Debian Lenny Beta 2 as well as the sidux updates. I was wondering why a hypen is added such as kmymoney2 is listed as kmymoney2 0.9-3 instead of the version number that should be used. Because of this I do not know if I am using 0.9.2 or not. I just wanted to know how to fix this so I know that I am using the correct version. That would be kmymoney 0.9, 3rd version in Debian. The hyphenation is to denote changes in the Debian package. So if version 0.9 is packaged 30 times that package would be 0.9-30. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: mutt backscatter clues
Steve Kemp wrote:
I believe it is possible to sign outgoing messages to detect legitimate
bounces and dump bogus ones - but I've not tried that.
You mean something like this in Exim?
deny hosts = !+relay_from_hosts
senders = :
message = Joe-job protection - Learn how to not send YOUR spam bounces
to anything other than the true originator. Thanks!
condition = \
${if !match{${lc:$message_body}}\
{\N( |^)received: from .+69\.61\.82\.197\N}\
{yes}{no}}
Basically, if the sender is and my IP is not in any of the Received:
lines it's obvious it didn't come from me.
--
Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream
PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do
---+-
signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Remote administration of a machine behind NAT
On Tue, Sep 09, 2008 at 10:08:10AM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: This is not unusual here. Here being? Somewhere in +0300 is kinda broad. :D -- Steve C. Lamb | But who can decide what they dream PGP Key: 1FC01004 | and dream I do ---+- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Do Debian's users care about the AGPL?
On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 10:26:16PM -0600, Chris Burkhardt wrote: I just realized that the remotely through a computer network doesn't pertain to any situation where the user is sitting in front of the machine (like slot machines and ATMs). So that renders many of our examples moot. Hopefully that makes you feel a little better about the scope of the AGPL. You would be wrong in many cases. Most of the systems I gave as examples are server/client running over a network. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 1FC01004 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Do Debian's users care about the AGPL?
On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 05:03:27PM -0400, Daniel Dickinson wrote: Which is the thing. GPL guarantees freedom the users of the software. The AGPL says that the user is the one writing the documents with the software is the user not the one running the code. I agree with the AGPL on that. Those users have not lost their freedom. That's the distiction people have lost. Lets take a simple example, Google's web-based spreadsheet. Who is using the software, you or Google? Answer: Google. They provide you *access* to that software but you're not the user. Just as if you came into my house, sat down at my computer and then thought just because you are poking at software I've written and allowing you to access gives you any rights to the source. If I distributed that software to you then, yes, you would have rights to it. I don't follow. If you mean ASP turned to Open Source because they get free (as in beer) software that don't have to share, then I'd argue that is an example of a popular loophole, no a robust example of the benefits of libre software. No, they turned to it because they got free (as in beer) tools for which they could create works which they could *choose* to keep in house if needed. Jeopardizing ensuring rights of user to control their own software is restricting freedom? I don't think so. Of course we disagree on who the user is, so I mean a different thing by that then you. Exactly so. The implications are far more profound than you think when we take your definition of user. I disagree with you interpretation of the license in this regard, and I probably disagree with your definition of freedom as well. The definition of freedom as shown in the GPL and AGPL are what counts here, and opinion of which definition of user is accurate. Really? So the fact that you're provided access to a custom application means you're a user and thus must have rights to the source code? You do realize how much software you're provided access to but aren't the user? Let me think off the top of my head of software which customers of mine have had access to which fall under your overly broad interpretation of user in the quest for the holy grail of restricting other people's uses to your narrow definition. Room reseveration software. ATM software. Slot machine software (Btw, you do realize most slots nowadays are computers, right?). Patron management software (better known as point systems). Point-of-sale terminals and, by extension, their servers. In-room entertainment software. Did I miss any portion of a casino that the customer doesn't touch? It boils down to this. The casino (and hotel) is using that software to provide a service to the customer. The customer is not the user of the software even though they do use it. Same thing for ASP. That is why the S is *S*ERVICE. If you close this loophole for ASPs then you are, by fiat, also demanding that any time you use an ATM machine you are using the software thus have a right to the source code of said software. If you don't see how that could cause some serious problems for the adoption of OS tools to be used to build those custom applications then you really don't understand what's going on nor the motivactions of why people chose the solutions they do outside of your narrow mindset. [snip off-topic political commentary, some of which is right and some which isn't] Tsk, it's all correct. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 1FC01004 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: College Wifi - Problems with .pl file
On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 06:58:24PM -0400, Mike Pobega wrote: I am desperately trying to fix this, but I have no clue what to do and my college technology office is a joke. Well, that much is obvious. They're the ones that have to fix this. Their server is sending you login.pl instead of running it; presuming it is supposed to be a CGI. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 1FC01004 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Do Debian's users care about the AGPL?
On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 05:23:06PM -0600, Chris Burkhardt wrote: Hi Steve. This is the first of your emails in this thread that I've seen make it to the list. Probably me not hitting list-reply in mutt and Danial, correctly, trying to bring it back to the list (though it really is a tough judgement call when to do so) Steve Lamb wrote: [...] Lets take a simple example, Google's web-based spreadsheet. Who is using the software, you or Google? Answer: Google. Your idea of user is strange to me. Why? They're the ones using the software to provide the service. The person is using the service not the software. If they were using the software they would be running it on their hardware. It is not that hard of a distinction to make. Really? So the fact that you're provided access to a custom application means you're a user and thus must have rights to the source code? Yes, that's the spirit of Free software that the GPL and AGPL tries to enforce. AGPL, yes, which is where it oversteps the bounds. The GPL no. If the GPL did it there would be no need for the AGPL. And sorry, but when I program a custom application on my machine for my use and you, in visiting my home sit down and use that application on my computer does not mean you're a user of it. My machine, my application, my code, not distributed, period. The moment that distinction is lost is the moment my code will probably migrate to a less free license because it is running roughshod over my freedoms as a developer. I don't think anyone is suggesting that casinos should use AGPL licensed software on their slot machines (it would probably make gaming the random number generators and so forth too easy). Yet some are running on GPL systems now. If those systems migrate to an AGPL system what happens then. You're right, no one is explicitly advocating it which is why I said that they are unaware of the ramifications of what they are pushing. I know that some slot systems run on Linux. Some ATM systems are utilizing Xen to migrade from OS/2 based applications to Java based applications. I am aware of at least one in-room entertainment system (Aka, the software that controls the Tv/PPV Movies in hotels) which is built on top of Java. Linux, Java and Xen are all FOSS. Every single on of these is conveyed to the end user and thus, under the AGPL, entitles the end user to the source. Are they under the AGPL now? Of course not. But adcovate the license and have those systems migrade to it and what happens? There is nothing non-Free or against the DFSG about that. Yes, there is. It oversteps the bounds of the developers and the true users of the software to extend protections to the users of the service. Remember, the GNU GPL and AGPL are aimed at protecting the freedom of *users*, not of vendors. Correct. The person sitting down in front of the slot machine isn't a user of the software. They are a user of the service. The user of the software is the casino. The vendor in this case is the manufacturer of the slot machine. If you're advocating that the casino should have the source to the machine then I'd agree with you (even if most gaming boards probably would not since such software has to be certified as tamper proof). Again, that's a non-intuitive definition of user. In context of the AGPL, the user is the person interacting with the software over a network, not the entity responsible for running the software. Here's an excerpt from Section 13 of the AGPL: No, it is rather intuative when you ignore the convey and focus on who is actually running the software on the hardware they own. In the Google example who owns the hardware? Google. Who is running the software? Google. Who then is the user? Google. Simple. Notwithstanding any other provision of this License, if you modify the Program, your modified version must prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely through a computer network (if your version supports such interaction) an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source of your version by providing access to the Corresponding Source from a network server at no charge, through some standard or customary means of facilitating copying of software. Yup, this moves it down the chain which is why it over steps the bounds. Given that almost everything these days has custom software which is not *distributed* to run on the end user's hardware that is a huge leap in scope; not plugging a hole. I understand why some people wouldn't want to participate in the Free software movement (less profit to be found here). But I disagree that it would be bad for society if the source to things like ATMs were open and verifiable. I happen to agree with you. I do not share your notion that any joe walking up off the street with an ATM card can demand the software off the ATM machine right then and there. I agree that the vendor who
Re: How to enable Debian to automatically clear the tmp directory
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 12:05:08PM -0500, Stackpole, Chris wrote: I second the cronjob. Just have something along the lines of: find /tmp -type f -ctime +1 mtime or atime. ctime has no bearing on whether the files are still in use. mtime is not perfect but will show if a file has been update recently. Recently modified files would be files in use regardless of their age since creation. atime would be best since it shows when the file was last accessed. One could surmise that access files are in use. However atime can be turned off on a per-filesystem basis and, to be honest, I am a tad fuzzy if a stat() call constitutes an access. I don't believe it is but it would be humorous if it were. ;) -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 1FC01004 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: A viable mutt
Sebastian Günther wrote: Look at account-hook and folder-hook and in combination with a nice source statement, you everything some bloated GUI mailer has. Even more you can easily adjust your profile on folder basis. This has never been true and is still not true. It is, of course, the easiest way to weed out the mutt zealots who have never touched a true multi-account client from those mutt users who have and know the difference. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A viable mutt
Nicolas KOWALSKI wrote: Are you sure about this ? As of the last time I tested mutt imap, yes, without question. In fact I had gone so far as to take a screencast of mutt deleting 200 messages by copying it to the local machine then uploading it to the trash folder. However, those configuration files have since disappeared. I deleted the screencast when someone else confirmed what I was saying. Posting a screencast at that time seemed overly pedantic. Indeed, when I copy one or several messages from one folder to another, the server log shows me mutt used a COPY command: Ok, that is manual copies, I presume. It's all fine IMHO. Now enable trash and see what it does there. It is entirely possible they have fixed that issue since the last time I tried mutt over imap (which was, incidentally, not all that long ago http://linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/Debian/2008-02/msg00724.html). Of course it would be rather humorous since it would make pretty much most of this thread, including my starting it, moot. Which is fine. I can laugh at myself. ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Happy birthday, Debian!
Mike Pobega wrote: I wish I was even using Debian for that long. I'm 18 now, been a user since I was 15, Debian Sarge. I grew up in a Windows household, so it was actually a big move for me to go to Debian at all Well, if it is any consolation at 18 I was running a BBS based on SuperBBS under DesqVIEW and later WME under OS/2 on a 386sx-16Mhz machine with 8Mb of RAM. Slackware was 21 or so. Debian was... 23ish. And thank you so much for making me feel old. ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A viable mutt
Daniel Burrows wrote: Do you know how this compares to offlineimap? I've been using that to synchronize mailboxes more-or-less happily for the last few years. I do not, no. I have not used offlineimap so cannot make any comparison. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A viable mutt
Johann Spies wrote: My experience is not that it is 'horribly slow and inefficient'. Are you sure that it is not a network-related slowness? Of course it is, the fact that mutt is using the network to download-then-upload the messages is the entire problem! Which is going to be faster: A: Downloading 2000 messages totaling 10Mb over a 300kps connection then upload them to the Trash folder on a 35kps upload. B: Tell the server, copy these 2000 messages to the Trash folder using the local system BUS oh, and mark them as deleted, thanks. Local system BUS pretty much any broadband connection there is. To use mutt with more than one imap-account, just create a different mutt-configuration file for each one. Yeah, not the same, not even close. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A viable mutt
Steve Kemp wrote: If you use the mutt-patched package you can take advantage of the sidebar to have a toggleable list of mailboxes on the left side of the screen. I've further updated that to allow it to show you only folders with new messages. See here for details, and here for packages for Etch: I'll have to check those out, thanks! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Happy birthday, Debian!
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 07:27:19PM +, i'll teach you to turn away. wrote: whoa. i've been running it for 11. has anyone here been with debian from the start? Not I. I came in somewhere between Bo and Hamm which places me solidly in the 10-11 year range. Debian 1.3 Bo (June 5th, 1997) Debian 2.0 Hamm (July 24th, 1998) -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 1FC01004 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
A viable mutt
I'm sure many of the long-time readers of D-U are familiar with my many rants against the horridness that is mutt. I prefer my email client GUI. I prefer it to do its own transport. I prefer that it handle multiple accounts sanely. IE, I prefer all things mutt is not. However, this is not one of those rants. No. This is a message which is composed in the spirit of fairness. One of the many faults I find with mutt is its IMAP implementation. In two words, it fails. Copying individual messages from the current folder to any other folder, especially trash, by downloading the message and then uploading it back to the server over the IMAP connection instead of issuing an IMAP copy operation is horribly slow and inefficient. Recently, however, I started using mutt extensively. I did this by SSHing into my server. It was fine but because I am overworking that server every time vim needed to load it would swap like mad. I needed to run mutt locally which meant imap. Something which is obvious I did not want to do. Enter a tool which made mutt viable for my needs, mbsync (debian package - isync). It is a tool which syncronizes a local Maildir folder with a remote imap folder. In essence it is a local imap cache. Mutt's failings as an imap client are masked since all of its operations are local. mbsync is in my crontab syncronizing the local cache with the remote folders once every 5 minutes. I am not sure if issues an imap copy/del to move items to the trash folder or if it reuploads the messages but, really, since it is syncing once every 5 minutes and is doing it asyncronously from what mutt is doing the impact of it doing it improperly is far less than Mutt's full locking operation. With that one glaring wart hidden I have to say that I've upgraded mutt to viable again. I still don't like having to search for my new mail. And since I'm going to have ssmtp or nullmailer installed on these machines anyway having mutt use them is tolerable. The lack of multi-account functionality is somethiing I can do without since, really, that's not something I have personally needed for a few years. So this time around I haven't run screaming from the portions of mutt I do like (list-replies, vim as an editor). So, if you're a D-U reader like me who constantly pick at the scab that is mutt, trying to make it work, and one of the reasons is its imap implementation. Give mbsync a whirl. It might just be the band-aid you need. ;) -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 1FC01004 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: A viable mutt
?? ?. wrote: The problem is that Mutt is agnostic to 'accounts', I'll give you that one, but I don't think it'd a useful feature -- think about it, what's an account other than a From: field? For those that needs it different SMTP servers with different SMTP settings, different filters, different folders, different incoming mail servers, in short, the ability to completely divorce two utterly different roles of mail without having to apply the carpentry needed to built a small house. IE, when I get promoted if I have a completely separate account that is handled properly I should be able to hand over any account associated with that role to someone else without too much trouble for either of us. Or maybe it's been to long since I've used anything besides Mutt and the metaphor is completely lost on me. In that case it would be nice to find out what exactly mutt is lacking. I admit, it is one of those features where, if you've never really utilized it it is hard to miss. However it is also one of those features that one finds indispensable once you've used it and grown used to it. Kind of like multiple-desktops that are everywhere except for Windowsland. ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Two computers thrash soon after boot -- how to stop it?
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 04:28:11PM -0400, Ken Heard wrote: One of these computers is a desktop. From a cold boot it appears to load the operating system without incident -- as far as I can tell -- right to the kdm login manager. Once a user name and password are entered it loads KDE in about 5-10 seconds. Instead hit cntl-alt-F1, login, run top and see what's going on. Or 'ps auwx' if nothing obvious show up on top. If I had to guess it might be Strigi or Beagle indexing at an inopportune time. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 1FC01004 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Paul Johnson wrote: So I guess that's why Ubuntu folks are working on Ubuntu instead of doing the Right Thing by working on Debian Desktop[1], eh? Yeah, because it has nothing to do with wanting to maintain a 6 month release schedule. Let's see, the first release of Ubuntu was 4.10. So since 4.10 to 8.04 is, 8 releases in the time Debian has done... one? Besides, this only shows your jealousy. The whole point of FOSS as a whole and the DSFG specifically is derivative works. If you don't like derivative works you'll be more at home in a non-FOSS environment. In short they are doing the right thing. So sorry you're offended by that. BTW, let me know when Debian finally gets MB 4/5 to work out of the box as forward/back. Only been a decade since those became standard on most consumer grade mice. :P -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Paul Johnson wrote: Consider submitting a patch instead. I suspect few have this problem. Yes, because everyone is a developer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Paul Johnson wrote: Interestingly enough, about once a decade is about how often I come across a mouse with a fourth and fifth button. It's happened once, and that was about a decade ago. Well, there's not accounting for the technological backwoods of the PRO. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VirtualBox WinXP host, Linux Partition guest?
Wackojacko wrote: Is this a typo in the e-mail or the command? Was me fat fingering it. Sure enough, put the h in and it worked. Thanks much for a second application of the clue-by-four. ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: virtual machine choices in Debian
David Baron wrote: Qemu will run most anything and without the need of guest-modules which may or may not be available for the target guest or may or may not install their successfully. Qemu presents standard hardware. Qemu is also dog slow since it is virtualizing everything instead of paravirtualizing like the other options are. Xen will run linux--no windows. False. Xen on an AMD-V or VT-x capable CPU will run Windows. In fact VirtualBox and VirtualPC both are now capable of using those extensions to speed up their performance. For my (non-)money I'd go for VirtualBox for the ease-of-use vs. licensing/performance. I'd love to get Xen working for my router box but I doubt that'll happen any time soon. For just user-grade virtualization VB is dead-sexy-simple to run and use. Also, for those who are not so worried about FOSS but want to remain legal-and-free-as-in-bear their non-FOSS license is hard to beat. From http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ here is item 6 (*** emphasis mine): What exactly do you mean by personal use and academic use in the Personal Use and Evaluation License? ***Personal use is when you install the product on one or more PCs yourself and you make use of it (or even your friend, sister and grandmother). It doesn't matter whether you just use it for fun or run your multi-million euro business with it. Also, if you install it on your work PC at some large company, this is still personal use.*** However, if you are an administrator and want to deploy it to the 500 desktops in your company, this would not qualify as personal use. Well, you could ask each of your 500 employees to install VirtualBox but don't you think we deserve some money in this case? We'd even assist you with any issue you might have. Normally personal use is a euphemism for non-commercial use. The fact they spell out the difference and explicitly state that you can use it for personal commercial use, even inside a company, just makes the easy-to-use version quite sweet. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VirtualBox WinXP host, Linux Partition guest?
Wackojacko wrote: The command is the same except the device section is as follows (from user manual section 9.9) *On a Windows host, instead of the above device specification, use e.g. \\.\PhysicalDrive0.* Cripes, good catch. I can see how I missed it being one line and not in the same format as all the other command lines. *sigh* Thanks for the clue-by-four. ;) May need full path to VBoxManage to work. Hrm, not sure, I'm getting the dreaded VERR_FILE_NOT_FOUND error. Will have to twiddle with this tomorrow night. C:\Program Files\Sun\xVM VirtualBoxVBoxManage.exe internalcommands createrawvmd k -filename test.vmdk -rawdisk \\.\PysicalDrive0 VirtualBox Command Line Management Interface Version 1.6.2 (C) 2005-2008 Sun Microsystems, Inc. All rights reserved. Error opening the raw disk: VERR_FILE_NOT_FOUND Tried the fakembr package but as I have grub in the MBR of the physical disk it wouldn't work for me. I eventually used a grub floppy image mounted at boot time pointing to the menu.lst on the linux partition which works! Ha, cute! Will have to remember that. Thanks again. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
