Re: [Elecraft] Advice on K3 versus KX3

[Igor Sokolov]

Much better BDR on K3. KX3 switches preamp off at 59+20db automatically. 
KX3 is really for travelling and receiver is not as good as one in K3. I 
have early SN KX3 (051) and K3 and plan to continue keeping both.


73, Igor UA9CDC



23.05.2021 2:16, Jim Brown пишет:

On 5/22/2021 1:57 PM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:
The question is:  If I sold off the K3+P3, what would I be missing 
with keeping just the KX3?


Operating convenience in the shack if you do digital modes, ability to 
use narrower roofing filters, louder audio output.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on K3 versus KX3

[Phil Hystad via Elecraft]

Thanks for all the replies — both online and off.

Looks like everyone suggests keeping the K3+P3.  Since I have no plans to get 
rid of the KX3+ I will let the issue quietly drop into the back ground and 
revisit in another six months.

73, phil, K7PEH




> On May 22, 2021, at 7:36 PM, Roger Meadows  wrote:
> 
> Or you can just program a macro to do all that.
> 
> On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 10:34 PM Bill Frantz  wrote:
> 
>> On 5/23/21 at 7:01 PM, jh3...@sumaq.jp (Keith Onishi) wrote:
>> 
>>> Listening CW in crowded situation like contesting.  K3 is much better
>> than KX3.
>>> Operating in digital mode, you can neither listen to receiving
>>> signals nor monitor your own transmitting audio with KX3.
>> 
>> (No operating session is really complete without at least one
>> SSB, digital, and CW QSO.)
>> 
>> I like digital modes and run both radios, the KX3 for portable
>> operations and the K3 for "in the shack". Switching between
>> digital and SSB on the KX3 is a PITA compared with the K3. On
>> the KX3 I have to:
>> 
>>   Unplug the microphone and plug in the computer sound card.
>>   Turn off the mic bias.
>>   Re-adjust the mic level.
>>   Turn on the VOX.
>> 
>> On the K3 I just have to turn on the VOX. All the cables stay in place.
>> 
>> On the KX3, I monitor the RX audio with a spliter cable feeding
>> headphones and my computer. (I don't generally monitor TX audio
>> with headphones on either radio.) I do tune RTTY via the
>> monitored audio.
>> 
>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>> 
>> ---
>> Bill Frantz| Since the IBM Selectric, keyboards have gotten
>> 408-348-7900   | steadily worse. Now we have touchscreen keyboards.
>> www.pwpconsult.com | Can we make something even worse?
>> 
>> __
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> -- 
> Roger Meadows
> AE4RM
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on K3 versus KX3

[Roger Meadows]

Or you can just program a macro to do all that.

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 10:34 PM Bill Frantz  wrote:

> On 5/23/21 at 7:01 PM, jh3...@sumaq.jp (Keith Onishi) wrote:
>
> >Listening CW in crowded situation like contesting.  K3 is much better
> than KX3.
> >Operating in digital mode, you can neither listen to receiving
> >signals nor monitor your own transmitting audio with KX3.
>
> (No operating session is really complete without at least one
> SSB, digital, and CW QSO.)
>
> I like digital modes and run both radios, the KX3 for portable
> operations and the K3 for "in the shack". Switching between
> digital and SSB on the KX3 is a PITA compared with the K3. On
> the KX3 I have to:
>
>Unplug the microphone and plug in the computer sound card.
>Turn off the mic bias.
>Re-adjust the mic level.
>Turn on the VOX.
>
> On the K3 I just have to turn on the VOX. All the cables stay in place.
>
> On the KX3, I monitor the RX audio with a spliter cable feeding
> headphones and my computer. (I don't generally monitor TX audio
> with headphones on either radio.) I do tune RTTY via the
> monitored audio.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>
> ---
> Bill Frantz| Since the IBM Selectric, keyboards have gotten
> 408-348-7900   | steadily worse. Now we have touchscreen keyboards.
> www.pwpconsult.com | Can we make something even worse?
>
> __
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-- 
Roger Meadows
AE4RM
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on K3 versus KX3

[Bill Frantz]

On 5/23/21 at 7:01 PM, jh3...@sumaq.jp (Keith Onishi) wrote:


Listening CW in crowded situation like contesting.  K3 is much better than KX3.
Operating in digital mode, you can neither listen to receiving 
signals nor monitor your own transmitting audio with KX3.


(No operating session is really complete without at least one 
SSB, digital, and CW QSO.)


I like digital modes and run both radios, the KX3 for portable 
operations and the K3 for "in the shack". Switching between 
digital and SSB on the KX3 is a PITA compared with the K3. On 
the KX3 I have to:


  Unplug the microphone and plug in the computer sound card.
  Turn off the mic bias.
  Re-adjust the mic level.
  Turn on the VOX.

On the K3 I just have to turn on the VOX. All the cables stay in place.

On the KX3, I monitor the RX audio with a spliter cable feeding 
headphones and my computer. (I don't generally monitor TX audio 
with headphones on either radio.) I do tune RTTY via the 
monitored audio.


73 Bill AE6JV

---
Bill Frantz| Since the IBM Selectric, keyboards have gotten
408-348-7900   | steadily worse. Now we have touchscreen keyboards.
www.pwpconsult.com | Can we make something even worse?

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on K3 versus KX3

[Carl Clawson]

Hi Phil

IMO the only reason to prefer the KX3 is compactness and light weight for
portable operations.

73, Carl WS7L

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 1:59 PM Phil Hystad via Elecraft <
elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:

> Looking for advice…
>
> I am considering which of my two rigs to keep, the K3+P3 or the
> KX3+PX3+KXPA100.  My K3 is serial number 3799 and it has not been upgraded
> with the new hardware developed for the K3S and I have no interest in
> upgrading the K3.
>
> Sherwood engineering ranks (with its default ordering) the KX3 above the
> K3 but as for me, those subtle differences in performance factors have
> never been meaningful to me so that does not matter.
>
> The question is:  If I sold off the K3+P3, what would I be missing with
> keeping just the KX3?
>
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
> P.S. I almost put the K3 up for sale last year but covid changed my
> priorities.
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on K3 versus KX3

[Keith Onishi]

It is unto your operation preferences.
Listening CW in crowded situation like contesting.  K3 is much better than KX3.
Operating in digital mode, you can neither listen to receiving signals nor 
monitor your own transmitting audio with KX3.

I have both K3+P3 as my main TRX and KX3 + KXPA100 as my backup TRX. I also 
bring KX3 out on field operation.
I sometimes use KX3 in standalone on contesting in QRP category.

73 de JH3SIF, Keith

> 2021/05/23 5:57、Phil Hystad via Elecraft のメール:
> 
> Looking for advice…
> 
> I am considering which of my two rigs to keep, the K3+P3 or the 
> KX3+PX3+KXPA100.  My K3 is serial number 3799 and it has not been upgraded 
> with the new hardware developed for the K3S and I have no interest in 
> upgrading the K3.
> 
> Sherwood engineering ranks (with its default ordering) the KX3 above the K3 
> but as for me, those subtle differences in performance factors have never 
> been meaningful to me so that does not matter.
> 
> The question is:  If I sold off the K3+P3, what would I be missing with 
> keeping just the KX3?
> 
> 
> 73, phil, K7PEH
> 
> P.S. I almost put the K3 up for sale last year but covid changed my 
> priorities.
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on K3 versus KX3

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

The question is:  If I sold off the K3+P3, what would I be missing 

> with keeping just the KX3?

Significantly lower composite noise even with the original synthesizer
in the K3 (in addition to those items referenced by K9YC).

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-05-22 4:57 PM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:

Looking for advice…

I am considering which of my two rigs to keep, the K3+P3 or the 
KX3+PX3+KXPA100.  My K3 is serial number 3799 and it has not been upgraded with 
the new hardware developed for the K3S and I have no interest in upgrading the 
K3.

Sherwood engineering ranks (with its default ordering) the KX3 above the K3 but 
as for me, those subtle differences in performance factors have never been 
meaningful to me so that does not matter.

The question is:  If I sold off the K3+P3, what would I be missing with keeping 
just the KX3?


73, phil, K7PEH

P.S. I almost put the K3 up for sale last year but covid changed my priorities.


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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on K3 versus KX3

[Jim Brown]

On 5/22/2021 1:57 PM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:

The question is:  If I sold off the K3+P3, what would I be missing with keeping 
just the KX3?


Operating convenience in the shack if you do digital modes, ability to 
use narrower roofing filters, louder audio output.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on selling K3s/10

[W0FK]

Also consider eHam and the swapmeet forum on qrz.com. Both of those also have
older ads archived where you can search for prior sales of k3’s in their
numerous configurations and figure out your asking price. If you post on
qrz.com, pay attention to the posting guidelines. 

Other places to consider is the k3 group at groups.io and here. Although not
technically “swap sites” there have been many for sale or wanted posts over
the years. EBay is also out there although it’s not my preferred listing
site for lots or reasons. 

Good luck!

73, Lou, W0FK 



-
St. Louis, MO

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that 
genius has its limits." Albert Einstein


--
Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on selling K3s/10

[Carl Jón Denbow]

  
  
  

Duane,  other than installing the Elecraft 100 watt internal amp, no! 
;-) — 73 de Carl N8VZ 



Sent from my iPhoneCarl Jón Denbow, 
Ph.D. Director of Communication Emeritus Ohio University Heritage College of 
Osteopathic Medicine Athens, Ohio 
(740) 591-8471 

  




On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:22 PM -0500,  wrote:










Thanks Carl!
I'll take a look at that.

BTW: Do you know of anyone who has been able to modify the K3/10 to get a few 
more watts out of it?

Thanks
Duane

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, at 10:02 PM, Carl Jón Denbow wrote:
>  
> I’d recommend the QTH.com swap shop. 73 de Carl N8VZ
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> Carl Jón Denbow, Ph.D. 
> Director of Communication Emeritus 
> Ohio University 
> Heritage College of Osteopathic Medicine 
> Athens, Ohio 
> 
> (740) 591-8471 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 5:07 PM -0500,  wrote:
> 
> > Hi Gang,
> I hope its ok for me to ask this here
> 
> I am thinking about selling the K3s/10 - w/K3FLA-400 400hz 8 pole roofing 
> filter
> Purchased in 2015 and in excellent condition with original shipping box etc.
> 
> Your advice on best platform to post it - and a fair asking price.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> N1BBR
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on selling K3s/10

[bw_dw]

Thanks Carl!
I'll take a look at that.

BTW: Do you know of anyone who has been able to modify the K3/10 to get a few 
more watts out of it?

Thanks
Duane

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, at 10:02 PM, Carl Jón Denbow wrote:
>  
> I’d recommend the QTH.com swap shop. 73 de Carl N8VZ
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> Carl Jón Denbow, Ph.D. 
> Director of Communication Emeritus 
> Ohio University 
> Heritage College of Osteopathic Medicine 
> Athens, Ohio 
> 
> (740) 591-8471 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 5:07 PM -0500,  wrote:
> 
> > Hi Gang,
> I hope its ok for me to ask this here
> 
> I am thinking about selling the K3s/10 - w/K3FLA-400 400hz 8 pole roofing 
> filter
> Purchased in 2015 and in excellent condition with original shipping box etc.
> 
> Your advice on best platform to post it - and a fair asking price.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> N1BBR
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on selling K3s/10

[Carl Jón Denbow]

  
  
  

I’d recommend the QTH.com swap shop.  73 de Carl N8VZ



Sent from my iPhoneCarl Jón Denbow, 
Ph.D. Director of Communication Emeritus Ohio University Heritage College of 
Osteopathic Medicine Athens, Ohio 
(740) 591-8471 

  




On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 5:07 PM -0500,  wrote:










Hi Gang,
I hope its ok for me to ask this here

I am thinking about selling the K3s/10 - w/K3FLA-400 400hz 8 pole roofing filter
Purchased in 2015 and in excellent condition with original shipping box etc.

Your advice on best platform to post it - and a fair asking price.

Thanks in advance
N1BBR
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Rick Tavan]

I do miscellaneous switching chores at my remote station with two devices:
a remotely-controlled AC power strip and a remotely-controlled DC relay
board. Either could be adapted to your requirements IF your switch has
digital inputs such as four independent control lines. I don't know if
either of these techniques is what you really want, but maybe they'll give
you some ideas.

My AC power strip is from Digital Loggers Inc. I found it at a surplus
store for a lot less than new boxes. It supports eight controllable AC
outlets from a Web page that's hosted inside the outlet strip itself.
Connect it to your remote LAN with a little well-documented, one-time
network magic and you're good to go. You can assign mnemonic names to each
outlet, subdivide them into "user" and "administrator" sets, monitor access
via a "heartbeat" on the Internet for restart sequencing, etc. Quite nice
but not exactly what you want as you would have to plug in wall warts or
external relays and you would have to activate the four lines manually, one
at a time. To change antennas you would probably have to turn one off and
another on which is kind of messy.

My DC relay board is from Velleman Projects. It has a local interface
program (Windows) that I access via a remote desktop app. It has eight SPDT
relays but only exposes the common and normally open contacts via a
terminal strip. I've considered tacking wires onto the normally closed
contacts and adding a second terminal strip to expose them, but so far
haven't had to do that. They probably have other models with different I/O
capabilities. Although this device, like the power strip, provides eight
independent, binary lines, its local interface program is written in Basic
and source code is available. I wanted to re-program it with mnemonic names
instead of just numbers 1-8 but when I saw the Gothic environment into
which Basic has devolved, I gave up. If you're handier with Basic, you
could use the supplied source code as education and write your own program
that turns on one and no more than one line at a time.

There are other vendors of similar devices. I believe there are also some
solutions involving remote serial ports but I have no experience with them.

Good luck & 73,

/Rick N6XI

--

Rick Tavan
Truckee, CA

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:30 PM, Dennis Ashworth 
wrote:

>
> Question #2 remains. How do I remotely switch between 4 positions on an RX
> antenna switch (e.g. K9AY switch box) via some kind of Windows based UI.
> Ideas?
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Yngvi (TF3Y)]

Hi Dennis.

Have you checked what is available here:
http://www.remoterig.com/wp/

73, Yngvi TF3Y

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 1:30 AM, Dennis Ashworth 
wrote:

> My original post (below) morphed into a thread on standards, etc ... the
> discussion was insightful and useful in defining my solution to question #1
> below. Thanks.
>
> Question #2 remains. How do I remotely switch between 4 positions on an RX
> antenna switch (e.g. K9AY switch box) via some kind of Windows based UI.
> Ideas?
>
> Thanks
> Dennis, K7FL
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> > From: Dennis Ashworth 
> > Date: February 24, 2018 at 2:23:20 PM EST
> > To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" 
> > Subject: Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement
> >
> > I’ve been remoting my K3, KPA500, KAT500 station via the RemoteRig boxes
> and K3/0 mini for two years with solid results. Later this year, I want to
> make several enhancements, including the replacement of the KPA500 and
> KAT500 with a KPA1500. The amp/tuner should be a fairly straightforward
> hardware replacement, but it does necessitate a few station changes which
> I’m not certain how to implement. Let me explain and hopefully the masses
> have ideas/approaches for consideration.
> >
> > 1. I feed a HyTower vertical (optimized for 40M & 80M) on all bands.
> Where the driving impedance is close to 50 ohms on 40M & 80 (my bands of
> interest) there has been no attempt to match the HyTower on other bands.
> With the KAT500, matching was not a problem and I reduced mismatch losses
> on the feed line by using hardline from the in-shack tuner to the antenna.
> >
> > When I switch to the KPA1500, operation on the unmatched bands might
> prove problematic. To address this, I plan to provide switchable matching
> networks to transform the HyTower drive impedance on each band to something
> the KPA1500 can match. I can design the required impedance transformation
> networks, but not sure how to automatically select the various (relay
> based) impedance networks required for each band. Clearly, I need to grab
> band data from the K3, but what’s the best hardware to use for this task?
> >
> > BTW, I want to power the KPA1500 ON with the K3, which requires a
> Y-cable modification, or perhaps one of the N6TV boxes?
> >
> > 2. I want to interface a K9AY RX antenna 4 position switch to some sort
> of UI that I can access remotely. I can design an electrical interface to
> the K9AY switch, but controlling and monitoring remotely is the issue.
> Ideas?
> >
> > 3. I have a Windows computer available at each end of the radio circuit.
> The only other hardware is a SignalLink used for digital mods.
> >
> > 4. Configuring the station for future antenna enhancements (e.g. SteppIR
> if we live long enough to see sunspots return!) are great if they come
> without significant reliability impacts.
> >
> > Any ideas how to accomplish the required switching/monitoring?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Dennis, K7FL
> > Currently in Panama City, Florida
> > Station in Battle Ground, WA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

It's great to say what should have been done, particularly when the
original design is 35+ years old (Yaesu transceiver/FL-7000).  It
is not practical to make a change to all the legacy hardware so any
equipment supporting Yaesu format "Band Data" needs to be designed
to be +12V tolerant and any transceiver generating "band Data" needs
to source +12V for logic high and provide open circuit (or a weak
pull down) for logic low.

If a given piece of hardware doesn't meet those specifications, the
manufacturer clearly needs to label it as *not compatible* with the
Yaesu products.

This is not a matter of "standards" as there were none when Yaesu
designed its transceivers and amplifier.  For many years, those who
built their own hardware to interface with the Yaesu rigs built to
the Yaesu specification ... and if the current crop of third party
hardware was designed to meet Yaesu's specification there would not
be an issue of incompatibility with multiple receivers connected to
the "Band Data bus".

While you may not like the approach of "first to use" setting the
"standard", that "standard" has been there for 35+ years. It's a
little late to "wish it away" particularly since Yaesu still make
transceivers and amplifiers that continue to use "voltage source =
logic high/high impedance = logic low".

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/2/2018 7:19 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
I believe that logic can quickly merge into the idea that "the first to 
introduce BCD Band Data" will "set the standard".  I for one do not 
believe that is the best approach, and certainly not sufficient to 'set 
a standard', which may have serious flaws when extended beyond that 
manufacturer's realm.


The Yaesu method (I cannot call it a standard) will inter-operate with 
other Yaesu gear and 3rd party gear designed to inter-operate with it, 
but that does not constitute a "standard"


The "standard" for data communication has been established in the 
digital world for many, many years, and pre-dates the Yaesu system.


Drivers do not source voltage (they use open collector and open drain 
devices), and there is one pullup resistor at the end of the signal line 
- there may be multiple receivers monitoring the signal line, but there 
can be only one driver active at a time - which for a multiple driver 
situation means an external source of control is necessary for gating 
the drivers.
I was working with those "rules" when designing computer console 
circuits for a IBM large system back in 1969, and the same principals 
had been devised since the advent of IBM SLT logic modules in the late 
1950s.


So if anyone wants to apply "the first guy sets the standard", I think 
Yaesu was not the first, but they made the mistake of having the drivers 
source voltage.  That is only practical for very short signal lines and 
a very limited number of receivers listening on the signal line(s).


Efforts to continue the "Yaesu method" will result in further confusion 
as amateur box to box communications develops further and more and more 
incorporates design principles previously applied to computer systems 
and communications lines.  Even the IBM terminal communications plugged 
the "pullup" resistors at only one terminal (they were called line 
terminators) - at the end of the communications line.  That is a long 
established principle that works even today if done right.  What I am 
saying is that Yaesu did not "do it right" and creates limitations to 
expansion and the advancement of technology within the amateur community 
today.


So get out the cutters and remove the collector and drain resistors from 
the Yaesu drivers, and put pullup resistors only at the far end of the 
lines, and you can have the Yaesu "system" without any of the problems.


There are other systems that do allow multiple drivers on the same 
signalling line(s) - I2C is one example - whichever driver grabs the 
signalling first gets priority is a simplified version of the operation. 
  Ethernet is another example, but in any of these systems, the protocol 
must define which driver gets priority.  That requires a bit more 
sophistication than a simple driver on the communication line.


I believe the original K3 "did it right" to use open drain drivers on 
the band data lines - but succumbed to the hue and cry that it did not 
work with the various versions of the Yaesu system and Elecraft then 
added pullup resistors to the drivers.
The result has been a bastardized "system" that in many cases requires 
the addition of steering diodes and/or the removal of pullup resistors 
from external devices to make it work right.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/2/2018 6:17 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


As far as older Yaesu transceivers are concerned, their design is 
proprietary and cannot be brought into the mold without serious

converters (which should frankly be easily constructed by the serious
amateur).

Yaesu's transceivers were the *first* to use BCD "band data".  As such,
it should be incumbent 

Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Cady, Fred]

Right on Don.

73,

Fred KE7X



From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on 
behalf of Don Wilhelm 
Sent: Friday, March 2, 2018 5:19 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

I believe that logic can quickly merge into the idea that "the first to
introduce BCD Band Data" will "set the standard".  I for one do not
believe that is the best approach, and certainly not sufficient to 'set
a standard', which may have serious flaws when extended beyond that
manufacturer's realm.

The Yaesu method (I cannot call it a standard) will inter-operate with
other Yaesu gear and 3rd party gear designed to inter-operate with it,
but that does not constitute a "standard"

The "standard" for data communication has been established in the
digital world for many, many years, and pre-dates the Yaesu system.

Drivers do not source voltage (they use open collector and open drain
devices), and there is one pullup resistor at the end of the signal line
- there may be multiple receivers monitoring the signal line, but there
can be only one driver active at a time - which for a multiple driver
situation means an external source of control is necessary for gating
the drivers.
I was working with those "rules" when designing computer console
circuits for a IBM large system back in 1969, and the same principals
had been devised since the advent of IBM SLT logic modules in the late
1950s.

So if anyone wants to apply "the first guy sets the standard", I think
Yaesu was not the first, but they made the mistake of having the drivers
source voltage.  That is only practical for very short signal lines and
a very limited number of receivers listening on the signal line(s).

Efforts to continue the "Yaesu method" will result in further confusion
as amateur box to box communications develops further and more and more
incorporates design principles previously applied to computer systems
and communications lines.  Even the IBM terminal communications plugged
the "pullup" resistors at only one terminal (they were called line
terminators) - at the end of the communications line.  That is a long
established principle that works even today if done right.  What I am
saying is that Yaesu did not "do it right" and creates limitations to
expansion and the advancement of technology within the amateur community
today.

So get out the cutters and remove the collector and drain resistors from
the Yaesu drivers, and put pullup resistors only at the far end of the
lines, and you can have the Yaesu "system" without any of the problems.

There are other systems that do allow multiple drivers on the same
signalling line(s) - I2C is one example - whichever driver grabs the
signalling first gets priority is a simplified version of the operation.
  Ethernet is another example, but in any of these systems, the protocol
must define which driver gets priority.  That requires a bit more
sophistication than a simple driver on the communication line.

I believe the original K3 "did it right" to use open drain drivers on
the band data lines - but succumbed to the hue and cry that it did not
work with the various versions of the Yaesu system and Elecraft then
added pullup resistors to the drivers.
The result has been a bastardized "system" that in many cases requires
the addition of steering diodes and/or the removal of pullup resistors
from external devices to make it work right.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/2/2018 6:17 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
>> As far as older Yaesu transceivers are concerned, their design is
>> proprietary and cannot be brought into the mold without serious
>> converters (which should frankly be easily constructed by the serious
>> amateur).
> Yaesu's transceivers were the *first* to use BCD "band data".  As such,
> it should be incumbent on anyone using that interface to be electrically
> compatible with Yaesu's interface (source +5/+12V for logic high, open
> circuit for logic low).  Even the amateur DOS based logging software
> that provided "band data" on a computer LPT port duplicated that
> interface.
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Don Wilhelm]

I believe that logic can quickly merge into the idea that "the first to 
introduce BCD Band Data" will "set the standard".  I for one do not 
believe that is the best approach, and certainly not sufficient to 'set 
a standard', which may have serious flaws when extended beyond that 
manufacturer's realm.


The Yaesu method (I cannot call it a standard) will inter-operate with 
other Yaesu gear and 3rd party gear designed to inter-operate with it, 
but that does not constitute a "standard"


The "standard" for data communication has been established in the 
digital world for many, many years, and pre-dates the Yaesu system.


Drivers do not source voltage (they use open collector and open drain 
devices), and there is one pullup resistor at the end of the signal line 
- there may be multiple receivers monitoring the signal line, but there 
can be only one driver active at a time - which for a multiple driver 
situation means an external source of control is necessary for gating 
the drivers.
I was working with those "rules" when designing computer console 
circuits for a IBM large system back in 1969, and the same principals 
had been devised since the advent of IBM SLT logic modules in the late 
1950s.


So if anyone wants to apply "the first guy sets the standard", I think 
Yaesu was not the first, but they made the mistake of having the drivers 
source voltage.  That is only practical for very short signal lines and 
a very limited number of receivers listening on the signal line(s).


Efforts to continue the "Yaesu method" will result in further confusion 
as amateur box to box communications develops further and more and more 
incorporates design principles previously applied to computer systems 
and communications lines.  Even the IBM terminal communications plugged 
the "pullup" resistors at only one terminal (they were called line 
terminators) - at the end of the communications line.  That is a long 
established principle that works even today if done right.  What I am 
saying is that Yaesu did not "do it right" and creates limitations to 
expansion and the advancement of technology within the amateur community 
today.


So get out the cutters and remove the collector and drain resistors from 
the Yaesu drivers, and put pullup resistors only at the far end of the 
lines, and you can have the Yaesu "system" without any of the problems.


There are other systems that do allow multiple drivers on the same 
signalling line(s) - I2C is one example - whichever driver grabs the 
signalling first gets priority is a simplified version of the operation. 
 Ethernet is another example, but in any of these systems, the protocol 
must define which driver gets priority.  That requires a bit more 
sophistication than a simple driver on the communication line.


I believe the original K3 "did it right" to use open drain drivers on 
the band data lines - but succumbed to the hue and cry that it did not 
work with the various versions of the Yaesu system and Elecraft then 
added pullup resistors to the drivers.
The result has been a bastardized "system" that in many cases requires 
the addition of steering diodes and/or the removal of pullup resistors 
from external devices to make it work right.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/2/2018 6:17 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


As far as older Yaesu transceivers are concerned, their design is 
proprietary and cannot be brought into the mold without serious

converters (which should frankly be easily constructed by the serious
amateur).

Yaesu's transceivers were the *first* to use BCD "band data".  As such,
it should be incumbent on anyone using that interface to be electrically
compatible with Yaesu's interface (source +5/+12V for logic high, open
circuit for logic low).  Even the amateur DOS based logging software
that provided "band data" on a computer LPT port duplicated that
interface.


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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

As far as older Yaesu transceivers are concerned, their design is 
proprietary and cannot be brought into the mold without serious

converters (which should frankly be easily constructed by the serious
amateur).

Yaesu's transceivers were the *first* to use BCD "band data".  As such,
it should be incumbent on anyone using that interface to be electrically
compatible with Yaesu's interface (source +5/+12V for logic high, open
circuit for logic low).  Even the amateur DOS based logging software
that provided "band data" on a computer LPT port duplicated that
interface.

Absent any documented standard for the interface, any product developer
who claims to support "BCD band data" should be expected to properly
emulate the Yaesu "ports" so that their receiver works with any Yaesu
transceiver and/or their transceiver properly drives any Yaesu amp
(FL-7000/Quadra).

The issue is accessory makers who are not +12V tolerant and those who
apply voltage to the BCD lines ... and transceiver makers who provide
"band data" ports that do not source +5/12V for logic high.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/2/2018 4:43 PM, ab2tc wrote:

Hi all,

Of course this assumes that the sole transmitter on the bus obeys the rules
as well, which is to be an open collector or open drain (or relay contact to
ground). I am sorry if I omitted that point.

As far as older Yaesu transceivers are concerned, their design is
proprietary and cannot be brought into the mold without serious converters
(which should frankly be easily constructed by the serious amateur).

My main point is that the amateur community should move towards following
the "standard". If all devices followed that "standard" they would all work
together and there would be no problem with one device powering another.

AB2TC - Knut


ab2tc wrote

Hi all,

I was reluctant to respond again to this long thread, but I will.

If all receivers on the bus (yes, it is a bus)  were to obey the rules to
have a pullup resistor and a steering diode we would not have the problem
of
"false power" to devices on the bus. This would be proper engineering
practice which has unfortunately been ignored by the the ham community for
years.

AB2TC- Knut



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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Actually, we're talking about exactly the same thing.

I should have included  tags.  Sorry for the omission.

On 3/2/2018 2:03 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 3/2/2018 1:48 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.


Actually, what we're describing here is the LACK of a Standard -- each 
company decided in isolation how to implement things like this.

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Jim Brown]

On 3/2/2018 1:48 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.


Actually, what we're describing here is the LACK of a Standard -- each 
company decided in isolation how to implement things like this. I serve 
on the Standards Committee of Audio Engineering Society, and we develop 
Standards by consensus, through a process that accepts engineering (and 
sometimes applications) input from anyone who wishes to participate. 
Many of our Standards took years to formulate.


The situation with ham gear is that, most likely for competitive 
reasons, each company developed their way of doing things on their own. 
This happens fairly often in the world of consumer products. Over a 
period of nearly 20 years, I rarely saw representatives of Japanese 
companies in Standards meetings, while US and EU companies and users are 
represented. Indeed, I mostly remember the Japanese companies presenting 
papers on their new developments.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

73 -- Lynn

On 3/2/2018 1:43 PM, ab2tc wrote:

My main point is that the amateur community should move towards following
the "standard". If all devices followed that "standard" they would all work
together and there would be no problem with one device powering another.

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[ab2tc]

Hi all,

Of course this assumes that the sole transmitter on the bus obeys the rules
as well, which is to be an open collector or open drain (or relay contact to
ground). I am sorry if I omitted that point.

As far as older Yaesu transceivers are concerned, their design is
proprietary and cannot be brought into the mold without serious converters
(which should frankly be easily constructed by the serious amateur).

My main point is that the amateur community should move towards following
the "standard". If all devices followed that "standard" they would all work
together and there would be no problem with one device powering another.

AB2TC - Knut


ab2tc wrote
> Hi all,
> 
> I was reluctant to respond again to this long thread, but I will.
> 
> If all receivers on the bus (yes, it is a bus)  were to obey the rules to
> have a pullup resistor and a steering diode we would not have the problem
> of
> "false power" to devices on the bus. This would be proper engineering
> practice which has unfortunately been ignored by the the ham community for
> years.
> 
> AB2TC- Knut
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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> lists+1215531472858-365791@.nabble





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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

If all receivers on the bus (yes, it is a bus) were to obey the rules
to have a pullup resistor and a steering diode we would not have the
problem of "false power" to devices on the bus.

Of course, they would fail to work with older Yaesu transceivers that
source voltage for a logic high and are open circuit on logic low.


73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/1/2018 7:58 PM, ab2tc wrote:

Hi all,

I was reluctant to respond again to this long thread, but I will.

If all receivers on the bus (yes, it is a bus)  were to obey the rules to
have a pullup resistor and a steering diode we would not have the problem of
"false power" to devices on the bus. This would be proper engineering
practice which has unfortunately been ignored by the the ham community for
years.

AB2TC- Knut



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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Don Wilhelm]

Knut,

This has been a "corruption" of the RS-232 environment.
RS-232 is a point to point protocol, and too many ham applications have 
tried to turn it into a multi-point communication.  It just does not work.


Multiple receivers will work, but multiple drivers will not.  It all 
boils down to that point.


In addition, all but the far end receivers should provide the pullup 
resistors.  If that is followed, no harm will occur.
Unfortunately, many devices want to be that far end receiver with the 
pullup resistors, and chaos is the result.


Until a systems approach is implemented (don't hold your breath), the 
RS-232 and interoperatability between manufacturers will be a thing only 
to be wished for.  Each manufacturer has there own version of 
interoperability which works fine until someone offers some gear which 
does not conform.


Maybe we need a ham radio "standards" organization to resolve the 
problems and make all things ham radio to work together.  That is not 
likely in the near future IMHO.


73,
Don W3FPR

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/1/2018 7:58 PM, ab2tc wrote:

Hi all,

I was reluctant to respond again to this long thread, but I will.

If all receivers on the bus (yes, it is a bus)  were to obey the rules to
have a pullup resistor and a steering diode we would not have the problem of
"false power" to devices on the bus. This would be proper engineering
practice which has unfortunately been ignored by the the ham community for
years.

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[ab2tc]

Hi all,

I was reluctant to respond again to this long thread, but I will.

If all receivers on the bus (yes, it is a bus)  were to obey the rules to
have a pullup resistor and a steering diode we would not have the problem of
"false power" to devices on the bus. This would be proper engineering
practice which has unfortunately been ignored by the the ham community for
years.

AB2TC- Knut



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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Jack Brindle]

With todays microelectronics, false powering can occur with little current, 
perhaps a milliamp or less, definitely less than that required to drive the LED 
of an optoisolator. Voltage levels required are quite low, depending on the 
design. As low as 2 volts can do the trick, and at that level the required 
current is even lower. The power sourced by the Yaesu design will easily cause 
the problem. At the voltage levels being discussed, even with protective zener 
diodes, the result will most likely be destructive. Here in Silicon Valley 
there are many equipment designers that are very familiar with the issue. A 
good look at the ATCA backplane specification used in the telco 
high-availability world will show my take on handling the issue. As a hint, I 
called for I2C open-drain drive with protective diodes on the receivers and 
pull-ups behind the diodes, all specified for optimum bus performance. In those 
systems there is no possibility for current to be driven into devices on 
communicating blades.

This is really a Ford vs Chevy (Mac vs PC, etc) argument. There are several 
methods for providing band and frequency information, pretty much as many as 
there are transceiver manufacturers. Within their ecosystem, each works very 
well. The problems occur when crossing ecosystems. Just as Icom serial and Icon 
analog don’t directly connect, neither do others, including logic BCD and Yaesu 
BCD. All need some sort of proper interface. Forcing one to directly connect to 
another is risky at best. One is lucky (for a while) if they do work. Providing 
proper interface circuitry is a requirement of anyone trying to bridge two 
systems. There are many successful designs, and some that are not successful. 
The latter tend not to last very long. 

If you have a Yaesu radio, by all means use the Yaesu ecosystem. I am sure the 
devices work very well. The same is true of Icom, Kenwood and other ecosystems. 
In my case I have Elecraft gear, and use directly compatible electronics, 
whether it comes from the company, other manufacturers, or my own designs.

Jack, W6FB

> On Feb 28, 2018, at 7:23 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2/28/2018 8:19 PM, Jack Brindle wrote:
>> It makes me wonder if perhaps the old Yaesu method should be retired 
> > and no longer used.
> 
> If you're willing to purchase/replace all the pre-1990 Yaesu
> transceivers still in use .
> 
>> Either they get frustrated because the connection doesn’t work and no
>> harm is done otherwise, or they get really frustrated because the
>> 12V driver blows up their device.
> 
> If the device is designed to be +12V tolerant (input current limiting
> and properly selected "pull down") there is no damage.  The input
> current limiting and pull down also keeps any voltage on the inputs
> low enough to prevent "false powering."  For that matter, the BCD
> signals are DC and the third party device could use shunt zener diodes
> on the signal lines to limit the input voltage to and prevent false
> powering.  It's only when the third party device makes assumptions
> without understanding the history of the Yaesu "Band Data" (or "Linear")
> interface that one has an issue.
> 
> 73,
> 
>   ... Joe, W4TV
> 
> 
> On 2/28/2018 8:19 PM, Jack Brindle wrote:
>> There is a big problem with this, one that was unusual when Yaesu first 
>> created this setup, but very common now. The issue is that of false powering 
>> of receiving devices. In this day of low power micro controllers and other 
>> digital devices, the device can actually be powered through the I/O port 
>> when the device is supposed to be off. The I/O current flows into the input 
>> pin, through the protective diode and onto the Vcc rail, bypassing the main 
>> VCC pin. This means the device may be partially functional, and not under 
>> proper control. It can lead quickly to the destruction of the device.
>> This is the big reason for modern-day communications techniques between 
>> devices, and why protective measures must be taken to avoid false powering 
>> other devices. Yes, devices connected to BCD band data _can_ be false 
>> powered. We do see it. It makes me wonder if perhaps the old Yaesu method 
>> should be retired and no longer used. I certainly won’t be buying any of 
>> those devices.
>> There is no reason that BCD data should not be carried at logic levels 
>> between devices if these measures have been taken. There appears to be two 
>> separate “standards” at this point, the Yaesu 12V system, and the 5 volt TTL 
>> logic level system. Devices that play in each should be clearly marked so 
>> the buyer can beware. Unfortunately many are not. This does provide an 
>> opportunity for the creation of interfaces which translate between the two 
>> methods, providing protection to both the transceiver and the device being 
>> driven. The problem comes from hams who don’t realize the issue and try to 
>> connect the two. Either they get frustrated because the connection doesn’t 
>> wo

Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 2/28/2018 8:19 PM, Jack Brindle wrote:
It makes me wonder if perhaps the old Yaesu method should be retired 

> and no longer used.

If you're willing to purchase/replace all the pre-1990 Yaesu
transceivers still in use .


Either they get frustrated because the connection doesn’t work and no
harm is done otherwise, or they get really frustrated because the
12V driver blows up their device.


If the device is designed to be +12V tolerant (input current limiting
and properly selected "pull down") there is no damage.  The input
current limiting and pull down also keeps any voltage on the inputs
low enough to prevent "false powering."  For that matter, the BCD
signals are DC and the third party device could use shunt zener diodes
on the signal lines to limit the input voltage to and prevent false
powering.  It's only when the third party device makes assumptions
without understanding the history of the Yaesu "Band Data" (or "Linear")
interface that one has an issue.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/28/2018 8:19 PM, Jack Brindle wrote:

There is a big problem with this, one that was unusual when Yaesu first created 
this setup, but very common now. The issue is that of false powering of 
receiving devices. In this day of low power micro controllers and other digital 
devices, the device can actually be powered through the I/O port when the 
device is supposed to be off. The I/O current flows into the input pin, through 
the protective diode and onto the Vcc rail, bypassing the main VCC pin. This 
means the device may be partially functional, and not under proper control. It 
can lead quickly to the destruction of the device.

This is the big reason for modern-day communications techniques between 
devices, and why protective measures must be taken to avoid false powering 
other devices. Yes, devices connected to BCD band data _can_ be false powered. 
We do see it. It makes me wonder if perhaps the old Yaesu method should be 
retired and no longer used. I certainly won’t be buying any of those devices.

There is no reason that BCD data should not be carried at logic levels between 
devices if these measures have been taken. There appears to be two separate 
“standards” at this point, the Yaesu 12V system, and the 5 volt TTL logic level 
system. Devices that play in each should be clearly marked so the buyer can 
beware. Unfortunately many are not. This does provide an opportunity for the 
creation of interfaces which translate between the two methods, providing 
protection to both the transceiver and the device being driven. The problem 
comes from hams who don’t realize the issue and try to connect the two. Either 
they get frustrated because the connection doesn’t work and no harm is done 
otherwise, or they get really frustrated because the 12V driver blows up their 
device.

Luckily we don’t see the latter happen that much. But arguing that the “old 
ways” are somehow better, when we know otherwise, doesn’t do very much good.

In the Elecraft case, the drive and receivers are 5-volt TTL logic levels. As 
long as anything they attach do use those same levels everything works just 
fine.

- Jack, W6FB



On Feb 28, 2018, at 11:33 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:


On 2/28/2018 12:42 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

So are you advocating that all manufacturers of ham gear should adopt the Yaesu 
implementation as a "standard"?  Icom, Kenwood, Flex and Elecraft may have 
other thoughts.


Yes, if another transceiver manufacturer chooses to emulate Yaesu's
protocol (BCD based "band data" with 160M = 1, 80M = 2, 40M = 3,
30M = 4, 20M = 5, 17M = 6, 15M = 7, 12M = 8, 10M = 9 and 6M = 10),
they should also emulate the signal levels.

Icom and Kenwood have spoken, Icom used its own proprietary "Stepped
Voltage" for the IC2KL/IC4KL and certain antenna tuners (which Elecraft
supports in the KPA500 and KPA1500), while Kenwood have never provided
any "band Data" outputs.

I don't know/care what Flex are doing in their current "radios" - their
older products could be made to properly emulate the Yaesu Standard by
running a third party software application that drove an LPT port in
the computer that did the majority of the Flex's "work" - that LPT
sourced sufficient voltage/current (in "full power" ports) to be
compatible with the Yaesu implementation.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Jack Brindle]

There is a big problem with this, one that was unusual when Yaesu first created 
this setup, but very common now. The issue is that of false powering of 
receiving devices. In this day of low power micro controllers and other digital 
devices, the device can actually be powered through the I/O port when the 
device is supposed to be off. The I/O current flows into the input pin, through 
the protective diode and onto the Vcc rail, bypassing the main VCC pin. This 
means the device may be partially functional, and not under proper control. It 
can lead quickly to the destruction of the device.

This is the big reason for modern-day communications techniques between 
devices, and why protective measures must be taken to avoid false powering 
other devices. Yes, devices connected to BCD band data _can_ be false powered. 
We do see it. It makes me wonder if perhaps the old Yaesu method should be 
retired and no longer used. I certainly won’t be buying any of those devices.

There is no reason that BCD data should not be carried at logic levels between 
devices if these measures have been taken. There appears to be two separate 
“standards” at this point, the Yaesu 12V system, and the 5 volt TTL logic level 
system. Devices that play in each should be clearly marked so the buyer can 
beware. Unfortunately many are not. This does provide an opportunity for the 
creation of interfaces which translate between the two methods, providing 
protection to both the transceiver and the device being driven. The problem 
comes from hams who don’t realize the issue and try to connect the two. Either 
they get frustrated because the connection doesn’t work and no harm is done 
otherwise, or they get really frustrated because the 12V driver blows up their 
device.

Luckily we don’t see the latter happen that much. But arguing that the “old 
ways” are somehow better, when we know otherwise, doesn’t do very much good.

In the Elecraft case, the drive and receivers are 5-volt TTL logic levels. As 
long as anything they attach do use those same levels everything works just 
fine.

- Jack, W6FB


> On Feb 28, 2018, at 11:33 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2/28/2018 12:42 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> So are you advocating that all manufacturers of ham gear should adopt the 
>> Yaesu implementation as a "standard"?  Icom, Kenwood, Flex and Elecraft may 
>> have other thoughts.
> 
> Yes, if another transceiver manufacturer chooses to emulate Yaesu's
> protocol (BCD based "band data" with 160M = 1, 80M = 2, 40M = 3,
> 30M = 4, 20M = 5, 17M = 6, 15M = 7, 12M = 8, 10M = 9 and 6M = 10),
> they should also emulate the signal levels.
> 
> Icom and Kenwood have spoken, Icom used its own proprietary "Stepped
> Voltage" for the IC2KL/IC4KL and certain antenna tuners (which Elecraft
> supports in the KPA500 and KPA1500), while Kenwood have never provided
> any "band Data" outputs.
> 
> I don't know/care what Flex are doing in their current "radios" - their
> older products could be made to properly emulate the Yaesu Standard by
> running a third party software application that drove an LPT port in
> the computer that did the majority of the Flex's "work" - that LPT
> sourced sufficient voltage/current (in "full power" ports) to be
> compatible with the Yaesu implementation.
> 
> 73,
> 
>... Joe, W4TV
> 
> __
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 2/28/2018 12:42 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
So are you advocating that all manufacturers of ham gear should adopt 
the Yaesu implementation as a "standard"?  Icom, Kenwood, Flex and 
Elecraft may have other thoughts.


Yes, if another transceiver manufacturer chooses to emulate Yaesu's
protocol (BCD based "band data" with 160M = 1, 80M = 2, 40M = 3,
30M = 4, 20M = 5, 17M = 6, 15M = 7, 12M = 8, 10M = 9 and 6M = 10),
they should also emulate the signal levels.

Icom and Kenwood have spoken, Icom used its own proprietary "Stepped
Voltage" for the IC2KL/IC4KL and certain antenna tuners (which Elecraft
supports in the KPA500 and KPA1500), while Kenwood have never provided
any "band Data" outputs.

I don't know/care what Flex are doing in their current "radios" - their
older products could be made to properly emulate the Yaesu Standard by
running a third party software application that drove an LPT port in
the computer that did the majority of the Flex's "work" - that LPT
sourced sufficient voltage/current (in "full power" ports) to be
compatible with the Yaesu implementation.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Don Wilhelm]

So are you advocating that all manufacturers of ham gear should adopt 
the Yaesu implementation as a "standard"?  Icom, Kenwood, Flex and 
Elecraft may have other thoughts.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/28/2018 11:15 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


> THe point is that the two do not work together.

The point is that the devices don't work together because the third
party manufacturers did not bother to understand the Yaesu design
and take the necessary steps to be compatible.  Yaesu's only purpose
was to provide band switching data from the transceiver to a Yaesu
amplifier.  Their was no reason to design their system according to
some inapplicable "standard" from the data processing world.

Third party manufacturers need only provide a low impedance source
of +12V for a logic high and open circuit for a logic low on the
"transmit" side to emulate the Yaesu transceiver.

On the receive side, any device that would connect to a Yaesu 
compatible transceiver needs to tolerate +12V on the input and have a 
moderately

high (1 - 2K) pull down on any logic inputs (if it uses logic inputs);
opto-isolator inputs simply need the appropriate current limiting
resistors for 12V inputs (or +5V inputs given that many transceivers
have failed to provide +12V logic high outputs).

The bottom line is that this is not a "standards based" application.
If one is going to provide (or use) BCD "band data" the device must
closely emulate the Yaesu transceiver or clearly state that its
signaling levels are not [guaranteed] compatible with Yaesu.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/27/2018 10:53 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Joe,

You do admit that many amateur products do not conform to typical 
communications standards in the digital world. My experience does go 
back to my design and evaluation of IBM terminal communication 
between a DCE and a DTE device.  Although this was not necessarily 
RS-232 levels, the same thing is true. The drivers provide the low 
and high levels to the line (an open circuit or a ground) while the 
receiver at the far end of the line provides the logic high level.  
All other receivers will not provide voltage, but can listen in on 
the communication. This is not consistent with amateur products with 
one providing pullup resistors ath the driver location and some 
receive locations requiring the opposite I.E, those providing pullup 
resistors to +12 volts.
THe point is that the two do not work together.  It is not a systems 
approach.


73,
Don W3FPR.


On 2/27/2018 10:09 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


You're dealing with a "standard" that was originally developed for use
only within one company's products - much like Elecraft's Aux Bus.

As such, any "industry standard" is moot.  The design is for active
high/voltage source (to +12V originally) and was not intended for any
purpose than providing band switching for the FL-700 then the Quadra.
It would seem to me that any product that claims to inter-operate with
the Yaesu "Band Data" would emulate or at least be compatible with
that behavior - including the ability to *source* sufficient current
at +12V.

These devices are not operating in the "communications (non-ham) 
world",

they are strictly amateur products.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/27/2018 9:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
The problem is that most devices (in the ham world) expect the 
driver device to provide voltage.
In the communications (non-ham) world, the expectation is that the 
driver device produces either a logic low (short to common) or a 
logic high ( open circuit).


Look at the data sheets for "line drivers" and "line receivers" to 
check out what I am saying.


Open collector or open emitter does not make a difference in 
function, it is only a circuit design decision.  Yes, open 
Collector (or open drain) is commonly use in logic where the active 
state is zero volts (transistor or FET conducting to ground).
The open emitter design is the opposite.  A conducting device will 
provide a voltage on the line (or signal) being driven.


The point is that in a properly designed communications system, the 
drivers provide either conduction to ground or an essentially open 
circuit to the communications line (think of a relay being either 
open or closed).  The receiver provides the voltage to detect 
whether the driver is in an open circuit or closed circuit state.
If there are multiple receivers in the system, only one can be 
"boss", and that one determines the open circuit voltage and 
contains the pullup resistors for the system.  Other receivers work 
in listen mode and will contain no pullup resistors or active drivers.


This whole situation goes back to the "one driver, one receiver" 
condition.

Only one driver can exist on a communications system without conflict.
Multiple receivers are possible, but only one (at the far end of 
the line) should provide the pullup resistors.  All other receivers 
must be only in the listen mode.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/27/2018 8:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


 > Bu

Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> THe point is that the two do not work together.

The point is that the devices don't work together because the third
party manufacturers did not bother to understand the Yaesu design
and take the necessary steps to be compatible.  Yaesu's only purpose
was to provide band switching data from the transceiver to a Yaesu
amplifier.  Their was no reason to design their system according to
some inapplicable "standard" from the data processing world.

Third party manufacturers need only provide a low impedance source
of +12V for a logic high and open circuit for a logic low on the
"transmit" side to emulate the Yaesu transceiver.

On the receive side, any device that would connect to a Yaesu compatible 
transceiver needs to tolerate +12V on the input and have a moderately

high (1 - 2K) pull down on any logic inputs (if it uses logic inputs);
opto-isolator inputs simply need the appropriate current limiting
resistors for 12V inputs (or +5V inputs given that many transceivers
have failed to provide +12V logic high outputs).

The bottom line is that this is not a "standards based" application.
If one is going to provide (or use) BCD "band data" the device must
closely emulate the Yaesu transceiver or clearly state that its
signaling levels are not [guaranteed] compatible with Yaesu.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/27/2018 10:53 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Joe,

You do admit that many amateur products do not conform to typical 
communications standards in the digital world. My experience does go 
back to my design and evaluation of IBM terminal communication between a 
DCE and a DTE device.  Although this was not necessarily RS-232 levels, 
the same thing is true.  The drivers provide the low and high levels to 
the line (an open circuit or a ground) while the receiver at the far end 
of the line provides the logic high level.  All other receivers will not 
provide voltage, but can listen in on the communication.  This is not 
consistent with amateur products with one providing pullup resistors ath 
the driver location and some receive locations requiring the opposite 
I.E, those providing pullup resistors to +12 volts.
THe point is that the two do not work together.  It is not a systems 
approach.


73,
Don W3FPR.


On 2/27/2018 10:09 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


You're dealing with a "standard" that was originally developed for use
only within one company's products - much like Elecraft's Aux Bus.

As such, any "industry standard" is moot.  The design is for active
high/voltage source (to +12V originally) and was not intended for any
purpose than providing band switching for the FL-700 then the Quadra.
It would seem to me that any product that claims to inter-operate with
the Yaesu "Band Data" would emulate or at least be compatible with
that behavior - including the ability to *source* sufficient current
at +12V.

These devices are not operating in the "communications (non-ham) world",
they are strictly amateur products.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/27/2018 9:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
The problem is that most devices (in the ham world) expect the driver 
device to provide voltage.
In the communications (non-ham) world, the expectation is that the 
driver device produces either a logic low (short to common) or a 
logic high ( open circuit).


Look at the data sheets for "line drivers" and "line receivers" to 
check out what I am saying.


Open collector or open emitter does not make a difference in 
function, it is only a circuit design decision.  Yes, open Collector 
(or open drain) is commonly use in logic where the active state is 
zero volts (transistor or FET conducting to ground).
The open emitter design is the opposite.  A conducting device will 
provide a voltage on the line (or signal) being driven.


The point is that in a properly designed communications system, the 
drivers provide either conduction to ground or an essentially open 
circuit to the communications line (think of a relay being either 
open or closed).  The receiver provides the voltage to detect whether 
the driver is in an open circuit or closed circuit state.
If there are multiple receivers in the system, only one can be 
"boss", and that one determines the open circuit voltage and contains 
the pullup resistors for the system.  Other receivers work in listen 
mode and will contain no pullup resistors or active drivers.


This whole situation goes back to the "one driver, one receiver" 
condition.

Only one driver can exist on a communications system without conflict.
Multiple receivers are possible, but only one (at the far end of the 
line) should provide the pullup resistors.  All other receivers must 
be only in the listen mode.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/27/2018 8:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


 > But many (most) ham devices do not do it that way, they expect the
 > pullup resistors will be provided by the driver gear.

Actually, most devices that use BCD "band data" expect an open
emitter driver not an open collector driver.  Open em

Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Don Wilhelm]

Joe,

You do admit that many amateur products do not conform to typical 
communications standards in the digital world. My experience does go 
back to my design and evaluation of IBM terminal communication between a 
DCE and a DTE device.  Although this was not necessarily RS-232 levels, 
the same thing is true.  The drivers provide the low and high levels to 
the line (an open circuit or a ground) while the receiver at the far end 
of the line provides the logic high level.  All other receivers will not 
provide voltage, but can listen in on the communication.  This is not 
consistent with amateur products with one providing pullup resistors ath 
the driver location and some receive locations requiring the opposite 
I.E, those providing pullup resistors to +12 volts.
THe point is that the two do not work together.  It is not a systems 
approach.


73,
Don W3FPR.


On 2/27/2018 10:09 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


You're dealing with a "standard" that was originally developed for use
only within one company's products - much like Elecraft's Aux Bus.

As such, any "industry standard" is moot.  The design is for active
high/voltage source (to +12V originally) and was not intended for any
purpose than providing band switching for the FL-700 then the Quadra.
It would seem to me that any product that claims to inter-operate with
the Yaesu "Band Data" would emulate or at least be compatible with
that behavior - including the ability to *source* sufficient current
at +12V.

These devices are not operating in the "communications (non-ham) world",
they are strictly amateur products.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/27/2018 9:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
The problem is that most devices (in the ham world) expect the driver 
device to provide voltage.
In the communications (non-ham) world, the expectation is that the 
driver device produces either a logic low (short to common) or a 
logic high ( open circuit).


Look at the data sheets for "line drivers" and "line receivers" to 
check out what I am saying.


Open collector or open emitter does not make a difference in 
function, it is only a circuit design decision.  Yes, open Collector 
(or open drain) is commonly use in logic where the active state is 
zero volts (transistor or FET conducting to ground).
The open emitter design is the opposite.  A conducting device will 
provide a voltage on the line (or signal) being driven.


The point is that in a properly designed communications system, the 
drivers provide either conduction to ground or an essentially open 
circuit to the communications line (think of a relay being either 
open or closed).  The receiver provides the voltage to detect whether 
the driver is in an open circuit or closed circuit state.
If there are multiple receivers in the system, only one can be 
"boss", and that one determines the open circuit voltage and contains 
the pullup resistors for the system.  Other receivers work in listen 
mode and will contain no pullup resistors or active drivers.


This whole situation goes back to the "one driver, one receiver" 
condition.

Only one driver can exist on a communications system without conflict.
Multiple receivers are possible, but only one (at the far end of the 
line) should provide the pullup resistors.  All other receivers must 
be only in the listen mode.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/27/2018 8:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


 > But many (most) ham devices do not do it that way, they expect the
 > pullup resistors will be provided by the driver gear.

Actually, most devices that use BCD "band data" expect an open
emitter driver not an open collector driver.  Open emitter will
*source* voltage for logic high and be open circuit for logic
low.  This is the convention from the early Yaesu rigs which
were the first devices to support "band data" (it is the way
the FL-7000 and Quadra amplifiers operate).

You will find the W9XT BCD10/BCD14 decoders with their opto-isolator
inputs work just fine with the "open emitter" drivers.  Other devices
designed with Yaesu transceivers in mind have appropriate current
limiting (series) on the input lines and "pull down" (parallel)
resistors on the logic gates.  Some "standard" devices (Top Ten
BD-Y and the original microHAM Band Decoder) will provide both
current limiting resistors and internal pull-ups but I have not
seen any amateur product with series diodes in the band data lines.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/27/2018 4:17 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Knut,

That is the way it *should* be, and was that way in the K3 originally.
But many (most) ham devices do not do it that way, they expect the 
pullup resistors will be provided by the driver gear.
So, because of that, Elecraft added pullup resistors to the band 
data outputs of the K3 long ago.
So yes, we are left with a situation that often requires steering 
diodes.



73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/27/2018 3:48 PM, ab2tc wrote:

Hi Don and all,

Hear,hear, Don. The receivers should have the pullup resistor to 
whatever
the approp

Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

You're dealing with a "standard" that was originally developed for use
only within one company's products - much like Elecraft's Aux Bus.

As such, any "industry standard" is moot.  The design is for active
high/voltage source (to +12V originally) and was not intended for any
purpose than providing band switching for the FL-700 then the Quadra.
It would seem to me that any product that claims to inter-operate with
the Yaesu "Band Data" would emulate or at least be compatible with
that behavior - including the ability to *source* sufficient current
at +12V.

These devices are not operating in the "communications (non-ham) world",
they are strictly amateur products.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/27/2018 9:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
The problem is that most devices (in the ham world) expect the driver 
device to provide voltage.
In the communications (non-ham) world, the expectation is that the 
driver device produces either a logic low (short to common) or a logic 
high ( open circuit).


Look at the data sheets for "line drivers" and "line receivers" to check 
out what I am saying.


Open collector or open emitter does not make a difference in function, 
it is only a circuit design decision.  Yes, open Collector (or open 
drain) is commonly use in logic where the active state is zero volts 
(transistor or FET conducting to ground).
The open emitter design is the opposite.  A conducting device will 
provide a voltage on the line (or signal) being driven.


The point is that in a properly designed communications system, the 
drivers provide either conduction to ground or an essentially open 
circuit to the communications line (think of a relay being either open 
or closed).  The receiver provides the voltage to detect whether the 
driver is in an open circuit or closed circuit state.
If there are multiple receivers in the system, only one can be "boss", 
and that one determines the open circuit voltage and contains the pullup 
resistors for the system.  Other receivers work in listen mode and will 
contain no pullup resistors or active drivers.


This whole situation goes back to the "one driver, one receiver" condition.
Only one driver can exist on a communications system without conflict.
Multiple receivers are possible, but only one (at the far end of the 
line) should provide the pullup resistors.  All other receivers must be 
only in the listen mode.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/27/2018 8:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


 > But many (most) ham devices do not do it that way, they expect the
 > pullup resistors will be provided by the driver gear.

Actually, most devices that use BCD "band data" expect an open
emitter driver not an open collector driver.  Open emitter will
*source* voltage for logic high and be open circuit for logic
low.  This is the convention from the early Yaesu rigs which
were the first devices to support "band data" (it is the way
the FL-7000 and Quadra amplifiers operate).

You will find the W9XT BCD10/BCD14 decoders with their opto-isolator
inputs work just fine with the "open emitter" drivers.  Other devices
designed with Yaesu transceivers in mind have appropriate current
limiting (series) on the input lines and "pull down" (parallel)
resistors on the logic gates.  Some "standard" devices (Top Ten
BD-Y and the original microHAM Band Decoder) will provide both
current limiting resistors and internal pull-ups but I have not
seen any amateur product with series diodes in the band data lines.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/27/2018 4:17 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Knut,

That is the way it *should* be, and was that way in the K3 originally.
But many (most) ham devices do not do it that way, they expect the 
pullup resistors will be provided by the driver gear.
So, because of that, Elecraft added pullup resistors to the band data 
outputs of the K3 long ago.
So yes, we are left with a situation that often requires steering 
diodes.



73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/27/2018 3:48 PM, ab2tc wrote:

Hi Don and all,

Hear,hear, Don. The receivers should have the pullup resistor to 
whatever
the appropriate voltage needed (within reason) *and* a steering 
diode in

series with the input. This will prevent another device with a higher
voltage from feeding current back into the device which could damage
semiconductors. Without the steering diode all receivers must use 
the same

pullup voltage. Of course a single receiver is not a problem either.

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Don Wilhelm]

The problem is that most devices (in the ham world) expect the driver 
device to provide voltage.
In the communications (non-ham) world, the expectation is that the 
driver device produces either a logic low (short to common) or a logic 
high ( open circuit).


Look at the data sheets for "line drivers" and "line receivers" to check 
out what I am saying.


Open collector or open emitter does not make a difference in function, 
it is only a circuit design decision.  Yes, open Collector (or open 
drain) is commonly use in logic where the active state is zero volts 
(transistor or FET conducting to ground).
The open emitter design is the opposite.  A conducting device will 
provide a voltage on the line (or signal) being driven.


The point is that in a properly designed communications system, the 
drivers provide either conduction to ground or an essentially open 
circuit to the communications line (think of a relay being either open 
or closed).  The receiver provides the voltage to detect whether the 
driver is in an open circuit or closed circuit state.
If there are multiple receivers in the system, only one can be "boss", 
and that one determines the open circuit voltage and contains the pullup 
resistors for the system.  Other receivers work in listen mode and will 
contain no pullup resistors or active drivers.


This whole situation goes back to the "one driver, one receiver" 
condition.

Only one driver can exist on a communications system without conflict.
Multiple receivers are possible, but only one (at the far end of the 
line) should provide the pullup resistors.  All other receivers must be 
only in the listen mode.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/27/2018 8:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


 > But many (most) ham devices do not do it that way, they expect the
 > pullup resistors will be provided by the driver gear.

Actually, most devices that use BCD "band data" expect an open
emitter driver not an open collector driver.  Open emitter will
*source* voltage for logic high and be open circuit for logic
low.  This is the convention from the early Yaesu rigs which
were the first devices to support "band data" (it is the way
the FL-7000 and Quadra amplifiers operate).

You will find the W9XT BCD10/BCD14 decoders with their opto-isolator
inputs work just fine with the "open emitter" drivers.  Other devices
designed with Yaesu transceivers in mind have appropriate current
limiting (series) on the input lines and "pull down" (parallel)
resistors on the logic gates.  Some "standard" devices (Top Ten
BD-Y and the original microHAM Band Decoder) will provide both
current limiting resistors and internal pull-ups but I have not
seen any amateur product with series diodes in the band data lines.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/27/2018 4:17 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Knut,

That is the way it *should* be, and was that way in the K3 originally.
But many (most) ham devices do not do it that way, they expect the 
pullup resistors will be provided by the driver gear.
So, because of that, Elecraft added pullup resistors to the band data 
outputs of the K3 long ago.

So yes, we are left with a situation that often requires steering diodes.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/27/2018 3:48 PM, ab2tc wrote:

Hi Don and all,

Hear,hear, Don. The receivers should have the pullup resistor to 
whatever

the appropriate voltage needed (within reason) *and* a steering diode in
series with the input. This will prevent another device with a higher
voltage from feeding current back into the device which could damage
semiconductors. Without the steering diode all receivers must use the 
same

pullup voltage. Of course a single receiver is not a problem either.

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> But many (most) ham devices do not do it that way, they expect the
> pullup resistors will be provided by the driver gear.

Actually, most devices that use BCD "band data" expect an open
emitter driver not an open collector driver.  Open emitter will
*source* voltage for logic high and be open circuit for logic
low.  This is the convention from the early Yaesu rigs which
were the first devices to support "band data" (it is the way
the FL-7000 and Quadra amplifiers operate).

You will find the W9XT BCD10/BCD14 decoders with their opto-isolator
inputs work just fine with the "open emitter" drivers.  Other devices
designed with Yaesu transceivers in mind have appropriate current
limiting (series) on the input lines and "pull down" (parallel)
resistors on the logic gates.  Some "standard" devices (Top Ten
BD-Y and the original microHAM Band Decoder) will provide both
current limiting resistors and internal pull-ups but I have not
seen any amateur product with series diodes in the band data lines.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/27/2018 4:17 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Knut,

That is the way it *should* be, and was that way in the K3 originally.
But many (most) ham devices do not do it that way, they expect the 
pullup resistors will be provided by the driver gear.
So, because of that, Elecraft added pullup resistors to the band data 
outputs of the K3 long ago.

So yes, we are left with a situation that often requires steering diodes.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/27/2018 3:48 PM, ab2tc wrote:

Hi Don and all,

Hear,hear, Don. The receivers should have the pullup resistor to whatever
the appropriate voltage needed (within reason) *and* a steering diode in
series with the input. This will prevent another device with a higher
voltage from feeding current back into the device which could damage
semiconductors. Without the steering diode all receivers must use the 
same

pullup voltage. Of course a single receiver is not a problem either.

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Don Wilhelm]

Knut,

That is the way it *should* be, and was that way in the K3 originally.
But many (most) ham devices do not do it that way, they expect the 
pullup resistors will be provided by the driver gear.
So, because of that, Elecraft added pullup resistors to the band data 
outputs of the K3 long ago.

So yes, we are left with a situation that often requires steering diodes.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/27/2018 3:48 PM, ab2tc wrote:

Hi Don and all,

Hear,hear, Don. The receivers should have the pullup resistor to whatever
the appropriate voltage needed (within reason) *and* a steering diode in
series with the input. This will prevent another device with a higher
voltage from feeding current back into the device which could damage
semiconductors. Without the steering diode all receivers must use the same
pullup voltage. Of course a single receiver is not a problem either.

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[ab2tc]

Hi Don and all,

Hear,hear, Don. The receivers should have the pullup resistor to whatever
the appropriate voltage needed (within reason) *and* a steering diode in
series with the input. This will prevent another device with a higher
voltage from feeding current back into the device which could damage
semiconductors. Without the steering diode all receivers must use the same
pullup voltage. Of course a single receiver is not a problem either.

AB2TC - Knut



--
Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Don Wilhelm]

John and all,

This is a problem caused by the "way things work".
The original K3 did not have pullup resistors on the band data lines 
(correct by engineering practices, the pullup resistors should be in the 
receiving device).
BUT as a concession to those band decoders did not implement pullup 
resistors in their decoders, Elecraft got a lot of "flack" because the 
K3 did not work with those decoders.


As a result Elecraft added pullup resistors in the K3.  However those 
pullup resistors only work with devices which will respond to the +5 
volt high level.


There are some band decoders that DO provide pullup resistors, and some 
of them tie the pullup resistors to +12 volts.  Those band decoders will 
not work with the K3/K3S unless the pullup resistors in the band 
decoders are removed AND that the band decoder will respond to a +5 volt 
level for the logic high.  The result is that the K3 and band decoder 
"fight" for the logic high level.


IMHO, the original K3 design "did it right", and the problem lies with 
the band decoders.  The K3 addition of the internal pullup resistors 
caused problems with all except those band decoders that did not have 
internal pullup resistors.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/25/2018 9:08 PM, John Nogatch wrote:

I had difficulty with the Unified Microsystems BCD-14, i.e. the CMOS
inverter IC was overheating.

I eventually received the following advice from AB3CV, which I found to work.

-John AC6SL


From: Jim Miller 
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 2015 at 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Band Data
To: John Nogatch 


My BCD14 purchased this summer was unreliable as well. If you look at
the K3 (or K3s...the same) the Band Data outputs are open collector
pulled up by 2.2K in series with 200ohms. I knew this could be a
problem with anything which wasn't properly buffered so I looked at
the BCD14 schematic. I found the BCD-14 online schematic differed from
the unit I had after inspection with a ohm meter and magnifying glass.


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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[John Nogatch]

I had difficulty with the Unified Microsystems BCD-14, i.e. the CMOS
inverter IC was overheating.

I eventually received the following advice from AB3CV, which I found to work.

-John AC6SL


From: Jim Miller 
Date: Sat, Dec 26, 2015 at 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Band Data
To: John Nogatch 


My BCD14 purchased this summer was unreliable as well. If you look at
the K3 (or K3s...the same) the Band Data outputs are open collector
pulled up by 2.2K in series with 200ohms. I knew this could be a
problem with anything which wasn't properly buffered so I looked at
the BCD14 schematic. I found the BCD-14 online schematic differed from
the unit I had after inspection with a ohm meter and magnifying glass.

I probed my unit and found the optoisolators on my board had a current
transfer ratio insufficient to drive the decode chip input to a proper
logic low level when used with its supplied collector resistor and
driven by the K3s' modest pull up. After some discussion with the
supplier I changed the collector resistors to 33K and it works
perfectly now. The dark current on the optoisolator and the input bias
current on the decoder are insignificant making this resistor change
possible.

The improper logic levels on the board could easily result in
operating in the linear zone and oscillate as a result.

Good luck

jim ab3cv
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Ken K6MR]

The UM decoders don’t put 12V on the input side.  They have optoisolators on 
the input side that can be driven directly from the K3 without interfering with 
the KPA/KAT setups.  I’ve got several in my setup and they work great.  The 
outputs are active low, so if you have high side driven relays you need their 
high side driver board also.

Ken K6MR



From: Jack Brindle
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 14:42
To: Reflector Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

Interesting idea, but I would talk to N6TV before going too far down this path. 
The reason is the introduction of +12V on the Band lines will cause issues in 
the KPA500 and KAT500. There is a series-connected 220 ohm protection resistor 
in the K3’s Band signals. When +12V is placed on the band lines, the band 
voltage no longer is allowed to go below the TTL threshold needed by the KPA 
and KAT. N6TV has taken a good look at this, and may have a good solution for 
driving the UM decoder in this setup.

There are other decoders that use standard TTL voltage levels that work very 
well. These include the Elecraft KRC2, the Top-Ten Devices Band Aide decoder, 
The YCCC MOAS (which may be overkill for this use) and several others that are 
also very good.

73!

Jack, W6FB


> On Feb 25, 2018, at 2:09 PM, Dave Hachadorian  wrote:
> 
> For a band decoder, I like the Unified Microsystems device:
> http://www.unifiedmicro.com/decoder.html
> 
> To use this device, you would put +12 VDC on all the relay coils, and the 
> decoder would ground the appropriate relay to pull it in.  I would use cat 6 
> cable for the run out to the relays, with ground/signal on each twisted pair.
> 
> 
> Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
> Yuma, AZ
> 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: Dennis Ashworth 
> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:50 PM 
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
> Subject: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement 
> 
> I’ve been remoting my K3, KPA500, KAT500 station via the RemoteRig boxes and 
> K3/0 mini for two years with solid results. Later this year, I want to make 
> several enhancements, including the replacement of the KPA500 and KAT500 with 
> a KPA1500. The amp/tuner should be a fairly straightforward hardware 
> replacement, but it does necessitate a few station changes which I’m not 
> certain how to implement. Let me explain and hopefully the masses have 
> ideas/approaches for consideration.
> 
> 1. I feed a HyTower vertical (optimized for 40M & 80M) on all bands. Where 
> the driving impedance is close to 50 ohms on 40M & 80 (my bands of interest) 
> there has been no attempt to match the HyTower on other bands. With the 
> KAT500, matching was not a problem and I reduced mismatch losses on the feed 
> line by using hardline from the in-shack tuner to the antenna.
> 
> When I switch to the KPA1500, operation on the unmatched bands might prove 
> problematic. To address this, I plan to provide switchable matching networks 
> to transform the HyTower drive impedance on each band to something the 
> KPA1500 can match. I can design the required impedance transformation 
> networks, but not sure how to automatically select the various (relay based) 
> impedance networks required for each band. Clearly, I need to grab band data 
> from the K3, but what’s the best hardware to use for this task? 
> 
> BTW, I want to power the KPA1500 ON with the K3, which requires a Y-cable 
> modification, or perhaps one of the N6TV boxes? 
> 
> 2. I want to interface a K9AY RX antenna 4 position switch to some sort of UI 
> that I can access remotely. I can design an electrical interface to the K9AY 
> switch, but controlling and monitoring remotely is the issue. Ideas?
> 
> 3. I have a Windows computer available at each end of the radio circuit. The 
> only other hardware is a SignalLink used for digital mods.
> 
> 4. Configuring the station for future antenna enhancements (e.g. SteppIR if 
> we live long enough to see sunspots return!) are great if they come without 
> significant reliability impacts.
> 
> Any ideas how to accomplish the required switching/monitoring? 
> 
> Thanks
> Dennis, K7FL
> Currently in Panama City, Florida
> Station in Battle Ground, WA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Jack Brindle]

Interesting idea, but I would talk to N6TV before going too far down this path. 
The reason is the introduction of +12V on the Band lines will cause issues in 
the KPA500 and KAT500. There is a series-connected 220 ohm protection resistor 
in the K3’s Band signals. When +12V is placed on the band lines, the band 
voltage no longer is allowed to go below the TTL threshold needed by the KPA 
and KAT. N6TV has taken a good look at this, and may have a good solution for 
driving the UM decoder in this setup.

There are other decoders that use standard TTL voltage levels that work very 
well. These include the Elecraft KRC2, the Top-Ten Devices Band Aide decoder, 
The YCCC MOAS (which may be overkill for this use) and several others that are 
also very good.

73!

Jack, W6FB


> On Feb 25, 2018, at 2:09 PM, Dave Hachadorian  wrote:
> 
> For a band decoder, I like the Unified Microsystems device:
> http://www.unifiedmicro.com/decoder.html
> 
> To use this device, you would put +12 VDC on all the relay coils, and the 
> decoder would ground the appropriate relay to pull it in.  I would use cat 6 
> cable for the run out to the relays, with ground/signal on each twisted pair.
> 
> 
> Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
> Yuma, AZ
> 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: Dennis Ashworth 
> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:50 PM 
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
> Subject: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement 
> 
> I’ve been remoting my K3, KPA500, KAT500 station via the RemoteRig boxes and 
> K3/0 mini for two years with solid results. Later this year, I want to make 
> several enhancements, including the replacement of the KPA500 and KAT500 with 
> a KPA1500. The amp/tuner should be a fairly straightforward hardware 
> replacement, but it does necessitate a few station changes which I’m not 
> certain how to implement. Let me explain and hopefully the masses have 
> ideas/approaches for consideration.
> 
> 1. I feed a HyTower vertical (optimized for 40M & 80M) on all bands. Where 
> the driving impedance is close to 50 ohms on 40M & 80 (my bands of interest) 
> there has been no attempt to match the HyTower on other bands. With the 
> KAT500, matching was not a problem and I reduced mismatch losses on the feed 
> line by using hardline from the in-shack tuner to the antenna.
> 
> When I switch to the KPA1500, operation on the unmatched bands might prove 
> problematic. To address this, I plan to provide switchable matching networks 
> to transform the HyTower drive impedance on each band to something the 
> KPA1500 can match. I can design the required impedance transformation 
> networks, but not sure how to automatically select the various (relay based) 
> impedance networks required for each band. Clearly, I need to grab band data 
> from the K3, but what’s the best hardware to use for this task? 
> 
> BTW, I want to power the KPA1500 ON with the K3, which requires a Y-cable 
> modification, or perhaps one of the N6TV boxes? 
> 
> 2. I want to interface a K9AY RX antenna 4 position switch to some sort of UI 
> that I can access remotely. I can design an electrical interface to the K9AY 
> switch, but controlling and monitoring remotely is the issue. Ideas?
> 
> 3. I have a Windows computer available at each end of the radio circuit. The 
> only other hardware is a SignalLink used for digital mods.
> 
> 4. Configuring the station for future antenna enhancements (e.g. SteppIR if 
> we live long enough to see sunspots return!) are great if they come without 
> significant reliability impacts.
> 
> Any ideas how to accomplish the required switching/monitoring? 
> 
> Thanks
> Dennis, K7FL
> Currently in Panama City, Florida
> Station in Battle Ground, WA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Dave Hachadorian]

For a band decoder, I like the Unified Microsystems device:
http://www.unifiedmicro.com/decoder.html

To use this device, you would put +12 VDC on all the relay coils, and the 
decoder would ground the appropriate relay to pull it in.  I would use cat 6 
cable for the run out to the relays, with ground/signal on each twisted pair.


Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ


-Original Message- 
From: Dennis Ashworth 
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:50 PM 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Subject: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement 

I’ve been remoting my K3, KPA500, KAT500 station via the RemoteRig boxes and 
K3/0 mini for two years with solid results. Later this year, I want to make 
several enhancements, including the replacement of the KPA500 and KAT500 with a 
KPA1500. The amp/tuner should be a fairly straightforward hardware replacement, 
but it does necessitate a few station changes which I’m not certain how to 
implement. Let me explain and hopefully the masses have ideas/approaches for 
consideration.

1. I feed a HyTower vertical (optimized for 40M & 80M) on all bands. Where the 
driving impedance is close to 50 ohms on 40M & 80 (my bands of interest) there 
has been no attempt to match the HyTower on other bands. With the KAT500, 
matching was not a problem and I reduced mismatch losses on the feed line by 
using hardline from the in-shack tuner to the antenna.

When I switch to the KPA1500, operation on the unmatched bands might prove 
problematic. To address this, I plan to provide switchable matching networks to 
transform the HyTower drive impedance on each band to something the KPA1500 can 
match. I can design the required impedance transformation networks, but not 
sure how to automatically select the various (relay based) impedance networks 
required for each band. Clearly, I need to grab band data from the K3, but 
what’s the best hardware to use for this task? 

BTW, I want to power the KPA1500 ON with the K3, which requires a Y-cable 
modification, or perhaps one of the N6TV boxes? 

2. I want to interface a K9AY RX antenna 4 position switch to some sort of UI 
that I can access remotely. I can design an electrical interface to the K9AY 
switch, but controlling and monitoring remotely is the issue. Ideas?

3. I have a Windows computer available at each end of the radio circuit. The 
only other hardware is a SignalLink used for digital mods.

4. Configuring the station for future antenna enhancements (e.g. SteppIR if we 
live long enough to see sunspots return!) are great if they come without 
significant reliability impacts.

Any ideas how to accomplish the required switching/monitoring? 

Thanks
Dennis, K7FL
Currently in Panama City, Florida
Station in Battle Ground, WA





Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice needed: Remote Station Enhancement

[Mark Goldberg]

Are you sure the KPA1500 will not be able to tune your antennas? It
includes a tuner, and I would expect it to be capable.

I have been using Arduinos to control things, as they have lots of I/O and
appear to the computer as a USB serial port. Those serial ports can be
remoted via software, although I have not done it. I write simple software
that takes commands over the USB serial port and replies with a response.
See an example at

https://sites.google.com/site/spectrumlabtesting/home/usb-controlled-rf-switch

Maybe you can modify it to control something else. There are Arduinos with
multiple serial ports and lots more I/O that may be useful too. If you have
not tried it, programming an Arduino is not that hard and there are plenty
of examples out there to do almost anything you can think of.

I can't help much with the other stuff, as I have a KPA500 but none of the
other stuff you listed.

73,

Mark
W7MLG

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Dennis Ashworth  wrote:

> I’ve been remoting my K3, KPA500, KAT500 station via the RemoteRig boxes
> and K3/0 mini for two years with solid results. Later this year, I want to
> make several enhancements, including the replacement of the KPA500 and
> KAT500 with a KPA1500. The amp/tuner should be a fairly straightforward
> hardware replacement, but it does necessitate a few station changes which
> I’m not certain how to implement. Let me explain and hopefully the masses
> have ideas/approaches for consideration.
>
> 1. I feed a HyTower vertical (optimized for 40M & 80M) on all bands. Where
> the driving impedance is close to 50 ohms on 40M & 80 (my bands of
> interest) there has been no attempt to match the HyTower on other bands.
> With the KAT500, matching was not a problem and I reduced mismatch losses
> on the feed line by using hardline from the in-shack tuner to the antenna.
>
> When I switch to the KPA1500, operation on the unmatched bands might prove
> problematic. To address this, I plan to provide switchable matching
> networks to transform the HyTower drive impedance on each band to something
> the KPA1500 can match. I can design the required impedance transformation
> networks, but not sure how to automatically select the various (relay
> based) impedance networks required for each band. Clearly, I need to grab
> band data from the K3, but what’s the best hardware to use for this task?
>
> BTW, I want to power the KPA1500 ON with the K3, which requires a Y-cable
> modification, or perhaps one of the N6TV boxes?
>
> 2. I want to interface a K9AY RX antenna 4 position switch to some sort of
> UI that I can access remotely. I can design an electrical interface to the
> K9AY switch, but controlling and monitoring remotely is the issue. Ideas?
>
> 3. I have a Windows computer available at each end of the radio circuit.
> The only other hardware is a SignalLink used for digital mods.
>
> 4. Configuring the station for future antenna enhancements (e.g. SteppIR
> if we live long enough to see sunspots return!) are great if they come
> without significant reliability impacts.
>
> Any ideas how to accomplish the required switching/monitoring?
>
> Thanks
> Dennis, K7FL
> Currently in Panama City, Florida
> Station in Battle Ground, WA
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
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Re: [Elecraft] advice please

[Bill Frantz]

Back in the good old days, when the Internet was an academic 
toy, and the users were friends, the standard was, "Please reply 
directly to me and I'll summarize for the list." This approach 
should work nicely on this list as well. I've used it once or 
twice myself.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 6/29/17 at 9:48 AM, kx...@coldrockshotbrooms.com (Lynn W. 
Taylor, WB6UUT) wrote:



Could not have said it better myself.

I realize that a lot of us get tired of the especially long, 
uninteresting threads, especially if we don't own a Silverado 
or somesuch.


The flipside is that really good information is lost forever when replies go 
off-list.

73 -- Lynn

On 6/29/2017 8:09 AM, Bill wrote:
Sadly, this query and the associated replies were handled 
outside of this resource - thwarting the purpose of this mail 
list. A point of learning lost.


Bill W2BLC K-Line

---
Bill Frantz| "The only thing we have to   | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | fear is fear itself." - FDR  | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | Inaugural address, 3/4/1933  | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] advice please

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Could not have said it better myself.

I realize that a lot of us get tired of the especially long, 
uninteresting threads, especially if we don't own a Silverado or somesuch.


The flipside is that really good information is lost forever when 
replies go off-list.


73 -- Lynn

On 6/29/2017 8:09 AM, Bill wrote:
Sadly, this query and the associated replies were handled outside of 
this resource - thwarting the purpose of this mail list. A point of 
learning lost.


Bill W2BLC K-Line


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Re: [Elecraft] advice please

[Bill]

Sadly, this query and the associated replies were handled outside of 
this resource - thwarting the purpose of this mail list. A point of 
learning lost.


Bill W2BLC K-Line

--
Many of life's problems can be solved by simply deciding what
we can do without. - John Dolan

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Re: [Elecraft] advice please

[KC6CNN]

Thank you to those that emailed me directly. 
Thanks for your help. 
Gerald




-
KC6CNN - Gerald
K1 # 0014
K3 # 6294
KX3 # 757
--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/advice-please-tp7632164p7632165.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Lot's of good info, but let's end this thread now in the interest of reducing 
email overload for others, as it has certainly exceeded the near term posting 
volume limit for a single topic.


73,
Eric
Moderate Moderator
/elecraft.com/


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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Gary Hawkins]

Hi Craig,

DX'ing with the KX3 (or any QRP radio) for that matter can be very 
challenging as you don't have the power to break pile-ups.  Thus, you're 
either going to need to get a high gain antenna, e.g. tower and beam, or 
I would suggest digital modes.  I've had a lot of success with WAS using 
JT65, JT9, PSK and RTTY using 10W or below with modest wire antennas.


As many have suggested either wire dipoles, OCFD or G5RV all have there 
advantages and disadvantages.  I'm currently using a RadioWavz FD40-3 
fan dipole resonant on 40, 20 and 10m - for $56 this is a very cost 
effective and nicely built purchase and will get you on the air quickly 
while you consider other options.  I've built many wire and yagi HF 
antennas, and whether you build or buy you're going to need an antenna 
analyzer to tune the antenna.  I personally use a RigExperts AA-54, 
which I like a lot.


Thus my suggestion to get going would be RadioWavz FD40-3 and a 
RigExperts AA-54 or similar.


Have fun with your KX3.

73's Gary K6YOA

On 12/7/2015 6:12 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 16:13:22 -0600
From: CRAIG SCHROEDER
To:"elecraft@mailman.qth.net"  
Subject: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna
Message-ID:<01dc4aef-3cde-46a6-802f-50e1cd517...@mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I am pretty new ham and a brand new KX3/PX3 owner excited to try my hand at 
DX'ing!  If you were buying your first HF base antenna, primarily looking for 
performance on 20 and 40 meters, what would you recommend?  Also, what do you 
suggest as a high performance field antenna for QRP?

Thank you,

Craig
KD0TXL


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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO]

This is a very broad question! If I had no limitations, financial or 
regulatory, I would probably get a large Steppir beam on a tower at 
least 70' tall. But that is probably not what you are thinking of.


A simple, cheap antenna is a dipole up as high as possible -- no less 
than 30 feet in the air at the center, preferably higher. You could 
simply make a 'fan dipole' for 40 and 20 meters, fed with coax and a 1:1 
balun at the feedpoint.


An even better antenna is a 40 or 80 meter dipole fed with open wire 
line (see ). You can buy this assembled 
quite reasonably. It will work with the KX3 internal tuner plus a 1:1 or 
4:1 balun at the transceiver. If the feedline is at least 33 feet long, 
a 66-foot dipole will work on all bands from 80 through 10 meters 
(probably 6 meters too). Again, the higher the better.


You can buy all kinds of expensive verticals and clever compact 
antennas, but the above will outperform all of them for both DX and 
local work. Some of the expensive ones will be far worse. The only 
better antenna is a directional antenna like a rotary beam.


I'll let someone else answer your question about field antennas.

73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 8 Dec 2015 00:13, CRAIG SCHROEDER wrote:

I am pretty new ham and a brand new KX3/PX3 owner excited to try my
hand at DX'ing!  If you were buying your first HF base antenna,
primarily looking for performance on 20 and 40 meters, what would you
recommend?  Also, what do you suggest as a high performance field
antenna for QRP?

Thank you,

Craig KD0TXL

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

I think that should be 65 feet.

73 -- Lynn

On 12/7/2015 9:22 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:

How long is a half-wave dipole?
L = 468/F, where L is in inches and F is in MHz
40m band F=7.2 MHz, L = 65 inches 


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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Edward R Cole]

Simplest first HF antenna is a half-wave dipole.

My first antenna was a 40m dipole hung from trees with lead in run in 
thru an upstairs window to my radio.


Actually this was in 1958 and I was 14 years old so had no 
money.  Back in those years there was something called twin-lead 
which was used as feedline for TV antennas and was cheap.  I made a 
folded-dipole and used another piece of twin lead as feedline which I 
soldered into a PL-259 which I connected to my three tube receiver 
(which I also built from a kit).


Yeah that was connected wrong and it had high SWR but it received 
just fine.  Later it worked well connected to my Heath DX-35 which 
could load anything.  I would not know anything about SWR for a 
couple years but had just a lot of fun with that wire antenna.  It 
was probably 15 to 25 foot off the ground and put up with something 
called "clothesline".  Back in those years people hung their clothes 
outside in the sun to dry attached to clothesline with something 
called clothes pins.


OH well, that is how I, a pretty ignorant 8th grader, started out in 
ham radio on 40m (and it would also work on 15m).  It received all 
bands pretty well.  10m AM in 1958 was something to have 
experienced.  No one will every see conditions like that sunspot 
maximum again (well for a couple hundred years, anyway).


How long is a half-wave dipole?
L = 468/F, where L is in inches and F is in MHz
40m band F=7.2 MHz, L = 65 inches

This is on page 580 in my 1972 ARRL Handbook (yes I still have it).
to see what I have today, check out my website (link below)

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[w7aqk]

Craig and all,

You have received a lot of advice, and most of it was probably pretty good 
advice.  I would want to know a few more things about your situation if I 
were to make any recommendations which I thought were very precise.  Of the 
responses I read, I think the best ones (my opinion) came from Don Wilhelm 
and Jim Brown.  Don focused on your stated preference for 40 and 20 meters, 
and Jim added some good advice about vertical alternatives.


You didn't say exactly what flexibility you have about erecting an 
antenna--trees, space, etc.  If you want to work DX, you need to try and get 
your antenna up in the air as high as possible--at least 40 ft. or more. 
That's particularly important if all you are able to do is run at near QRP 
levels with a barefoot KX3.  Resonant dipoles for 40 and 20, at a decent 
height, should allow you to achieve some success, and they are relatively 
easy to construct.


You don't mention if you have a tuner, or if you purchased the ATU accessory 
for the KX3.  If you don't have either, you should probably invest in one. 
The KX3's internal ATU is excellent, but even a simple tuner like an MFJ, 
can give you several added options.  One is a single dipole fed with 
balanced feed line, which will probably allow you to operate several other 
bands.  When using balanced feed line and an internal ATU, a balun like the 
Elecraft BL-2 may be a necessary addition.  That is switchable between 1:1 
and 4:1, and the 1:1 setting will probably be your best option generally. 
This can be a very versatile arrangement, and not difficult or expensive to 
construct.  you can erect it as a horizontal dipole or an inverted vee, 
depending on what you have available for supports.


Several responders mentioned commercial alternatives.  End Fed Half Waves, 
like those from PAR Electronics (now LNR) do work quite well.  Some models 
are power limited, so choose accordingly.  The Par 10/20/40 is a good choice 
to match the KX3, but again, you should try and get it up in the air as high 
as you can.


Commercial multi-band verticals can be expensive, but I like Jim Brown's 
recommendation for something in the Cushcraft R series.  I've used an R8 
(and also the R7 which preceded it) for years with very good results.  As 
Jim says, put it up off the ground if at all possible.  Mine is about 15 
feet above the ground, and works considerably better than when I tried it 
ground mounted.  Some others mentioned a Gap Titan, which will give you 80 
meters as well (the R8 only goes down to 40 meters), but performance on that 
band is very marginal!  You would probably be much better off with the 
dipole/balanced feed line system I mention above so long as you can make the 
radiator part at least 100 ft. long or so.  An 88 ft. version suggested by 
L.B. Cebik (SK), who was a highly regarded "guru" on antennas, can work very 
well, but will test the capabilities of your tuner on 80 meters.  Also, 
comparing the Gap Titan to the R8 was something done quite extensively by 
Ward Silver, N0AX, who is well known for his expertise.  Overall, the R8 was 
the better antenna, but it does not cover 80 meters.   If you look around, 
you might find a good used one of either model, and save a bunch of bucks!


A lot of people will tell you that nothing beats resonant dipoles.  They are 
probably right.  However, you may not be blessed with lots of space or other 
important aspects necessary for having such, so a single dipole and balanced 
line, and a good tuner, can make up for a lot of sins.  The balanced feed 
line will help you keep your efficiency up when multi-banding so long as you 
have a tuner to do the matching.  Using coax on such a system will introduce 
significant loss unless the matching is all done at the feed point. 
Otherwise, you might see a decent SWR, but your output will be significantly 
reduced.


Hope you are not totally confused by all of this.  Just remember that your 
antenna is an extremely important part of your overall system, and needs a 
lot of consideration and effort to really enhance your results.  You have a 
very nice radio, but it won't do much unless you put a decent antenna on the 
end of it.


Dave W7AQK


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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,12/7/2015 2:13 PM, CRAIG SCHROEDER wrote:

I am pretty new ham and a brand new KX3/PX3 owner excited to try my hand at 
DX'ing!  If you were buying your first HF base antenna, primarily looking for 
performance on 20 and 40 meters, what would you recommend?


Real hams don't BUY antennas, we BUILD them. Antennas are the most 
important part of any station, and until you get into a tri-band beam, 
it is easy to build better than you can buy, and for a tiny fraction of 
the cost.


First, BUY a copy of the ARRL Handbook and the ARRL Antenna Book. STUDY 
(not quick read, but STUDY) these books so that you understand how 
antennas work. Next, STUDY the resources at your real estate -- what's 
available to support one or more wires up in the air?  If the answer is 
nothing, then consider buying a multi-band vertical. Suggestions about 
that later.


If you can support only one point, use it to support one or two "fan" 
dipoles. Build one fan for 80 and 40M, and hang the center from the very 
top of your single support. If you have two supports widely spaced 
enough, hang it between them. Build a second fan dipole for 20, 15 and 
10M. On these bands, 30-40 ft is a good height. Feed these antennas with 
50 ohm coax. If the feedline will be much longer than about 100 ft, use 
RG8 to minimize feedline losses.


If you're limited to a vertical, go with the biggest Cushcraft R-series 
you can afford, and try to mount it on your roof. HF verticals work 
better up in the air than on the ground. Again, feed it with 50 ohm 
coax, use the bigger RG8 if the feedline is very long.


There are lots of practical tutorials about how to build antennas on my 
website. k9yc.com/publish.htm  Start with the slide show and the short 
written piece about Antennas For Limited Space.


For portable QRP use -- start with plain ordinary insulated wire. #18 - 
#22 is a good size. Unroll a length close to a quarter wave, toss it 
into a tree, using string or rope to hold it up. Unroll a second length 
close to a quarter wave and connect it to the chassis of the KX3. Much 
cheaper and works far better than so-called QRP antennas that you buy. 
If there are no trees around where you plan to operate, buy one of the 
telescoping fiberglass poles designed to hold wire antennas and tape the 
wire to it that you would have tossed into a tree. Connect the second 
wire to the chassis. There's a photo of me on my qrz.com page doing 
exactly this about 12 years ago at a county park near Chicago. The rig 
is a K2.


73, Jim K9YC



Also, what do you suggest as a high performance field antenna for QRP?


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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Sfbonk via Elecraft]

 Another advantage of the 40 & 20 dipoles is that the 40 dipole should load up 
well on 15 (while it is still hanging in there prop wise). Will have some gain 
and the main lobes will be closer to the wire than broadside, so watch the 
orientation for DX coverage. I put up a G5RV at my vacation home and it loads 
with a tuner on 80 to 10. Has some gain on the higher bands ,keep in mind that 
nulls go along with the gain main lobes.

W3OU Steve

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Don Wilhelm 
To: CRAIG SCHROEDER ; elecraft 

Sent: Mon, Dec 7, 2015 6:41 pm
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

Craig,

For the home station, your first consideration is build or buy.  It is 
quite easy to build a pair of dipoles, one for 40 and one for 20 if 
those are your most desirable bands.  Get some wire, and some good coax 
and a good common mode choke for each antenna and use the ARRL handbook 
section on dipoles to build your own - it is not difficult.
Look at what you have for antenna supports - the higher the better, but 
for 40 meters, 50 feet is a suggested minimum for good performance.
If you have only one support that high, an inverted Vee works nicely.
Use resonant dipoles center fed and feed with 50 ohm coax.  Low loss 
RG8X is almost as low loss as RG8 but not as heavy.  If you are going to 
run power, use the RG-8 or RG-213 right from the start.

With a single tall support, for an inverted Vee configuration, position 
a 40 meter radiator at right angles with a 20 meter radiator and feed 
both with a single feedline.  Being placed at right angles to each 
other, there is little if any interaction.  Get the  ends of the 
inverted Vee radiators up as high as possible - if you can get the ends 
up to the same height as the center, that is great - you will have a 
pair of dipoles, so much the better.
Put the dipoles up, cut a bit long from what the "formula" tells you, 
and then trim it a bit at a time for the lowest SWR or for a reactance 
of zero should you have access to an antenna analyzer at the midpoint of 
your operating frequency.

If you have room for another dipole, consider adding a multiband antenna 
such as a G5RV so you can explore bands other than 40 and 20.

Use a good common mode choke at the antenna feedpoint (for the G5RV at 
the junction of the parallel feedline and the coax).  You will need a 
tuner for a G5RV or most any other multiband antennas.

If your horizontal space is limited, try a vertical.  I can recommend 
the GAP Titan, being a halfwave vertical, it needs no radials.  Mount 
the base 10 feet off the ground so the loop for 40 meters is above head 
level and use a good common mode choke at the feedpoint.

This is just for starters on your antenna quest.  That quest is an 
ongoing exercise for most hams.
Do not strive for the "best" antenna for starters, just get something up 
in the air and start operating - with time you will be able to determine 
how you want to improve your antenna farm.

For portable QRP operation, take a look at the End Fed Halfwave antennas 
offered by LNR Precision - They work and they have a good "trail 
friendly" lightweight version.  An EFHW can be easily deployed with one 
end in a tree and the other end near the transmitter.
If your field operations are more of the picnic table variety than the 
backpacking type, then consider a 32 foot heavy duty telescoping pole to 
hold up the center of an inverted VEE antenna.  Tie the center of a 
dipole antenna to the top of the pole and push it up - anchor the pole 
to whatever vertical support is available with bungy cords.  Extend the 
radiator ends out to whatever bushes or other supports are available.

So my suggestion is to start simple with homebuilt dipoles or other wire 
antennas, then grow your antenna farm after you get on the air and 
determine what you really want, and that may be a 150 foot tower with 
stacked rotating beams sometime in the future.  If you have space and 
want "beam" antennas using wire, consider 4 130 foot wires spaced 45 
degrees apart (total of 180 degrees spread) and you will have V-beams 
that can be steered - a very effective beam on 20 meters, but does 
require some feedline switching to select the pair of radiators to 
properly direct the radiation (it is bi-directional).

73,
Don W3FPR


On 12/7/2015 5:13 PM, CRAIG SCHROEDER wrote:
> I am pretty new ham and a brand new KX3/PX3 owner excited to try my hand at 
> DX'ing!  If you were buying your first HF base antenna, primarily looking for 
> performance on 20 and 40 meters, what would you recommend?  Also, what do you 
> suggest as a high performance field antenna for QRP?
>

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Augie "Gus" Hansen]

On 12/7/2015 3:41 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

Wire antennas are flexible, work well and are incredibly inexpensive.


Agreed - you can afford to experiment and learn a lot about antennas by 
building simple wire dipoles and loops before investing big money in 
towers and aluminum. And getting a copy of the ARRL Antenna Book, even 
an old edition at a swap meet or from a ham friend is highly recommended.


Put up as many as you can as big as you can.  If they stay up, they 
were too small.


Nah, let's get Craig started in the right direction. When I got into ham 
radio in the 1970s I often heard the expression "if your antenna didn't 
fall down last winter it wasn't big enough." But that's kind of like 
saying "If you're driving on the highway and you don't crash you're not 
driving fast enough."


I prefer to suggest that we should try to design and construct antennas 
well so that they stay up and work right. Putting a pulley and weight on 
the support of one end of a dipole suspended between two trees to 
accommodate tension changes from wind is an example of good technique.


Happy antenna building Craig.

Gus Hansen
KB0YH




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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Don Wilhelm]

Craig,

For the home station, your first consideration is build or buy.  It is 
quite easy to build a pair of dipoles, one for 40 and one for 20 if 
those are your most desirable bands.  Get some wire, and some good coax 
and a good common mode choke for each antenna and use the ARRL handbook 
section on dipoles to build your own - it is not difficult.
Look at what you have for antenna supports - the higher the better, but 
for 40 meters, 50 feet is a suggested minimum for good performance.

If you have only one support that high, an inverted Vee works nicely.
Use resonant dipoles center fed and feed with 50 ohm coax.  Low loss 
RG8X is almost as low loss as RG8 but not as heavy.  If you are going to 
run power, use the RG-8 or RG-213 right from the start.


With a single tall support, for an inverted Vee configuration, position 
a 40 meter radiator at right angles with a 20 meter radiator and feed 
both with a single feedline.  Being placed at right angles to each 
other, there is little if any interaction.  Get the  ends of the 
inverted Vee radiators up as high as possible - if you can get the ends 
up to the same height as the center, that is great - you will have a 
pair of dipoles, so much the better.
Put the dipoles up, cut a bit long from what the "formula" tells you, 
and then trim it a bit at a time for the lowest SWR or for a reactance 
of zero should you have access to an antenna analyzer at the midpoint of 
your operating frequency.


If you have room for another dipole, consider adding a multiband antenna 
such as a G5RV so you can explore bands other than 40 and 20.


Use a good common mode choke at the antenna feedpoint (for the G5RV at 
the junction of the parallel feedline and the coax).  You will need a 
tuner for a G5RV or most any other multiband antennas.


If your horizontal space is limited, try a vertical.  I can recommend 
the GAP Titan, being a halfwave vertical, it needs no radials.  Mount 
the base 10 feet off the ground so the loop for 40 meters is above head 
level and use a good common mode choke at the feedpoint.


This is just for starters on your antenna quest.  That quest is an 
ongoing exercise for most hams.
Do not strive for the "best" antenna for starters, just get something up 
in the air and start operating - with time you will be able to determine 
how you want to improve your antenna farm.


For portable QRP operation, take a look at the End Fed Halfwave antennas 
offered by LNR Precision - They work and they have a good "trail 
friendly" lightweight version.  An EFHW can be easily deployed with one 
end in a tree and the other end near the transmitter.
If your field operations are more of the picnic table variety than the 
backpacking type, then consider a 32 foot heavy duty telescoping pole to 
hold up the center of an inverted VEE antenna.  Tie the center of a 
dipole antenna to the top of the pole and push it up - anchor the pole 
to whatever vertical support is available with bungy cords.  Extend the 
radiator ends out to whatever bushes or other supports are available.


So my suggestion is to start simple with homebuilt dipoles or other wire 
antennas, then grow your antenna farm after you get on the air and 
determine what you really want, and that may be a 150 foot tower with 
stacked rotating beams sometime in the future.  If you have space and 
want "beam" antennas using wire, consider 4 130 foot wires spaced 45 
degrees apart (total of 180 degrees spread) and you will have V-beams 
that can be steered - a very effective beam on 20 meters, but does 
require some feedline switching to select the pair of radiators to 
properly direct the radiation (it is bi-directional).


73,
Don W3FPR


On 12/7/2015 5:13 PM, CRAIG SCHROEDER wrote:

I am pretty new ham and a brand new KX3/PX3 owner excited to try my hand at 
DX'ing!  If you were buying your first HF base antenna, primarily looking for 
performance on 20 and 40 meters, what would you recommend?  Also, what do you 
suggest as a high performance field antenna for QRP?



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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[David Guernsey via Elecraft]

My first HF antenna was an inverted V up aboutt 30 ft at feed point. It was cut 
for 20 meters, but worked on 15 and 4o also. 73 de Dave KJ6CBS
  From: CRAIG SCHROEDER 
 To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net"  
 Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 4:13 PM
 Subject: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna
   
I am pretty new ham and a brand new KX3/PX3 owner excited to try my hand at 
DX'ing!  If you were buying your first HF base antenna, primarily looking for 
performance on 20 and 40 meters, what would you recommend?  Also, what do you 
suggest as a high performance field antenna for QRP?

Thank you,

Craig
KD0TXL
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[John Kramer]

I can suggest an antenna by www.myantennas.com  Look for their antenna
called an  EFHW 80-10. It will take 1 KW, and has a low SWR on all bands
80/40/30/20/17/15/12/10 bands. It is a half wave design, that I have had 
tremendous success with as a second antenna to my SteppIR beams. 
It is easy and quick to get up, and will serve you well until such time that you
decide whether to put up a tower and beam. It will also serve well as a portable
antenna. I have done comparisons to numerous OCFD, Gap Titan vertical,
G5RV, ZS6BKW, loops and other wire antennas, and in most cases it 
outperformed all of them. 

73
John ZS5J




On 08 Dec 2015, at 12:13 AM, CRAIG SCHROEDER  wrote:

I am pretty new ham and a brand new KX3/PX3 owner excited to try my hand at 
DX'ing!  If you were buying your first HF base antenna, primarily looking for 
performance on 20 and 40 meters, what would you recommend?  Also, what do you 
suggest as a high performance field antenna for QRP?

Thank you,

Craig
KD0TXL
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[CRAIG SCHROEDER]

Hi Gerald,

I own a large lot with 2 tall trees that could accommodate an 80 meter dipole, 
and with the cooperation of a friendly neighbor, I could fit 160 meters using 
his large tree across the back of his property.  My trees run east to west and 
using the neighbors tree I can run north to south. I'm located almost right in 
the center of the United States.

Performance is the driving factor, but I world like to stay under $500 for the 
antenna itself.

BTW, I ordered my KX3 with the internal antenna tuner and roofing filters.

Thank you,

Craig

> On Dec 7, 2015, at 4:24 PM, Gerald Manthey  wrote:
> 
> Craig
> Do you have the real estate to have dipoles up or are you limited in space?
> Tnx 
> Gerald KC6CNN
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Wire antennas are flexible, work well and are incredibly inexpensive.

Put up as many as you can as big as you can.  If they stay up, they were 
too small.


73 -- Lynn

On 12/7/2015 2:13 PM, CRAIG SCHROEDER wrote:

I am pretty new ham and a brand new KX3/PX3 owner excited to try my hand at 
DX'ing!  If you were buying your first HF base antenna, primarily looking for 
performance on 20 and 40 meters, what would you recommend?  Also, what do you 
suggest as a high performance field antenna for QRP?

Thank you,

Craig
KD0TXL
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Milverton M. Swire via Elecraft]

Craig, my best advise, ARRL Antenna Book. 
There are way too many variables , and when it comes to Antenna, the only 
high performance Antenna there is, is measured in dbi. 
Go back through the archives here on the forum and you'll find many of 
educating 
discussion of different antenna subject. 

Best of luck, and WELCOME to Ham Radio and Elecraft.
73 Milverton / W9MMS.

  From: CRAIG SCHROEDER 
 To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net"  
 Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 4:13 PM
 Subject: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna
   
I am pretty new ham and a brand new KX3/PX3 owner excited to try my hand at 
DX'ing!  If you were buying your first HF base antenna, primarily looking for 
performance on 20 and 40 meters, what would you recommend?  Also, what do you 
suggest as a high performance field antenna for QRP?

Thank you,

Craig
KD0TXL
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Barry LaZar]

Craig,
Let me start with there is such thing as the perfect antenna. Each 
is a compromise. Now having said that, there are several antennas that 
come to mind. First, there is a simple dipole, fan dipole, or off center 
fed dipole. This assumes that you have supports, trees or equal, that 
can allow you to get the antenna up at least 35' and are at least 70' 
apart. I prefer a 40 meter off center fed dipole, OCFD, as it covers all 
the bands, and being off center fed, allow it to be tuned fairly easily. 
A simple 40 meter dipole fed in the center will work on 20, but it will 
require a 4:1 current balun in the system. Fan dipoles can be made to 
operate on both bands, but tuning is interactive.


If you want to spend ~$600, a Gap Titan is a good antenna. It is a 
bit cumbersome to stand up, but they work. Just make sure the bottom of 
the antenna is about 10' above ground. This height prevents clothes 
lining friends and relatives, and no radials are required.


There are other antennas. Each has something good or bad, price, 
performance, difficulty, etc. My belief is simple is best. And, the same 
should be true field work.


73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "CRAIG SCHROEDER" 
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" 
Sent: 12/7/2015 5:13:22 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

I am pretty new ham and a brand new KX3/PX3 owner excited to try my 
hand at DX'ing!  If you were buying your first HF base antenna, 
primarily looking for performance on 20 and 40 meters, what would you 
recommend?  Also, what do you suggest as a high performance field 
antenna for QRP?


Thank you,

Craig
KD0TXL
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Dr. William J. Schmidt, II]

How much money do you want to spend?


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  b...@wjschmidt.com
 

> On Dec 7, 2015, at 4:13 PM, CRAIG SCHROEDER  wrote:
> 
> I am pretty new ham and a brand new KX3/PX3 owner excited to try my hand at 
> DX'ing!  If you were buying your first HF base antenna, primarily looking for 
> performance on 20 and 40 meters, what would you recommend?  Also, what do you 
> suggest as a high performance field antenna for QRP?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Craig
> KD0TXL
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on First HF Antenna

[Gerald Manthey]

Craig
Do you have the real estate to have dipoles up or are you limited in space?
Tnx 
Gerald KC6CNN

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on software

[David Cole]

Mike,
I use MixW, and like it.  I have a review of it here:
http://nk7z.net/review-of-mixw-multimode-software/

-- 
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net

For MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
For Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
For MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Fri, 2015-05-29 at 03:31 +, k3...@comcast.net wrote:
> Mike, 
> I used FLDIGI or MIXW. Both are quite good. You don't need to worry about 
> radio control beyond PTT. I was using a SigaLink PSK for the interface and it 
> worked well. I have a KX3 these days and I use both the internal PSK cap, 
> abilities of the KX3 and FLDIGI. I go with what is the most convenient at the 
> moment; I still have my SignaLink PSK. 
> 
> How you go will depend on what other software you use. I use Ham Radio Deluxe 
> and some radio control software. It's easy for me to go anyway I want. BTW: 
> Ham Radio Deluxe has a package DM780 that has PSK software and well as other 
> modes. There's nothing really wrong with DM780; I'm just accustomed to using 
> FLDIGI. 
> 
> 73, 
> Barry 
> K3NDM 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Michael Rudolph"  
> To: "elecraft"  
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2015 8:00:25 PM 
> Subject: [Elecraft] Advice on software 
> 
> I want to operate psk with the kx2 using a computer. 
> 
> What is good psk software? 
> Also, what software can I use to turn my computer into a panadapter? If I 
> always have my computer, is there any reason to purchase the panadapter 
> accessory? 
> 
> Michael Rudolph 
> N3IRT 
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on software

[Dave KW4M]

/I want to operate psk with the kx2 using a computer./

I'd be happy with just CW

...if only that radio existed.

:)

73,
Dave




-
Dave
My Web Site 
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on software

[k3ndm]

Mike, 
I used FLDIGI or MIXW. Both are quite good. You don't need to worry about radio 
control beyond PTT. I was using a SigaLink PSK for the interface and it worked 
well. I have a KX3 these days and I use both the internal PSK cap, abilities of 
the KX3 and FLDIGI. I go with what is the most convenient at the moment; I 
still have my SignaLink PSK. 

How you go will depend on what other software you use. I use Ham Radio Deluxe 
and some radio control software. It's easy for me to go anyway I want. BTW: Ham 
Radio Deluxe has a package DM780 that has PSK software and well as other modes. 
There's nothing really wrong with DM780; I'm just accustomed to using FLDIGI. 

73, 
Barry 
K3NDM 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Rudolph"  
To: "elecraft"  
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2015 8:00:25 PM 
Subject: [Elecraft] Advice on software 

I want to operate psk with the kx2 using a computer. 

What is good psk software? 
Also, what software can I use to turn my computer into a panadapter? If I 
always have my computer, is there any reason to purchase the panadapter 
accessory? 

Michael Rudolph 
N3IRT 
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on software

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2015 28 May 19:01 -0500, Michael Rudolph wrote:
> I want to operate psk with the kx2 using a computer.
> 
> What is good psk software?

Fldigi.  It doesn't matter which of the major operating systems you use,
Fldigi is built for them all.

73, Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[AG0N-3055]

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 10:08:46 -0800, Phil Hystad wrote:

> I have seen some comments recently about six meters and I have never operated
> six meters.  I don't really have a descent antenna for six meters, just my 
> 80-meter (ladder line fed) dipole or my hex beam that I can at least tune to 
> six
> meters.

I'd use the hex beam.  You've already had many comments on the subject,
and yes, I'm about to add mine.  Believe it or not, most of them are
true!  Ken Kopp has one of the most important ones.  Get familiar with
DXMaps web site and sign up to receive email alerts when the band opens
for North America.  As soon as someone puts a spot up for a station,
you'll be informed that it is open.  You can click on the link provided
in the email and it will show you a map of the contacts posted.  I pay
close attention to that.  You'll get lots of "openings" for people on
the east coast, or in the southern states, especially southeast.  You
just have to evaluate what you see to decide if you want to run in and
fire up the rig or not.  One thing about it, the further south you are,
the more openings you'll get.

I've been a ham since 1960, and, except for having a 6M FM mobile in the
early 70s in Montana, I'd never been on six meters until a couple of
years ago.  I picked up a used rig that had six on it and a friend about
10 miles from here called me on 2M and told me the band was open.  I
used my HF beam, a TH-7DX to get on the air and tune around.  As it
turned out, I was able to work someone!  We later had a much better
opening and I worked a ton of stations.  I was hooked.  It's just like
ten meters.  When it is open, a wet string will work for an antenna.  It
just isn't open as often as ten.

The suggestion that March through August are good months is a good one.
My first July on six SSB filled a log book.  My second year did a good
job on another, even though neither year's travel plans allowed me to
work the entire month.  I've worked transequatorially to southern Chile,
but no JAs yet.  My second year on the band, I got a note from an old
friend I hadn't talked to in years and he cussed me out for working KL7
before him.  He had been on for over 20 yrs and never worked KL or KH. I
worked two KLs in less than a week, followed by two KHs.

The recommendation to not go too large on the antenna is a good one.
Directionality becomes a problem when you are in the monitor mode.  You
need to be able to hear signals that come in from all directions, just
in case.  I'm lacking that here, but I do have a good takeoff angle
almost 360 degrees.  I'm currently running a 5 element so-so antenna at
60 feet.  With my KPA500, it talks pretty darned well.  You would do
well to put up a more omnidirectional antenna for monitoring.
 
> The band is always dead quiet with the small exception of some noise
> spikes here and there but very rare.

This is pretty normal.  However, it does give you a chance to hunt up
some noise sources if you have any.  Power line noise, and junk like
that can really have negative effect on your enjoyment of any band,
especially six, where you have to be there and be ready to pounce as
soon as you hear something.  Openings can last from seconds to hours.

> Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest
> in a nice multi-element 6 meter bean antenna?

Start small (3-ele) for now.  It is pretty much assumed that we are on
the downhill slope of the sunspot cycle and the band will likely be open
less and less for awhile.  Plus, you are more likely to hear something
off the side or back of the antenna when a signal comes in from the
wrong direction.

> My most dominant operating mode would be CW but maybe some SSB from time to
> time.  I have no idea what's there as this band has always been blank to me.

CW is alive and well on six, but not nearly as much as SSB.

Sign up for the emails from Sherlock (DXMaps) and get ready.  We just
had a short opening to SoCal a couple weeks ago with good strong
signals.  You never know when it will open.

Gary - AG0N
-- 
http://ag0n.net
3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055
NodeOp Help Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Dave]

In my divorce, my ex cited my Amateur Radio 'interest'.  I still think that 
6M was one of the contributors to her point of view.


Other than the fact that she just wanted to get rid of me, and did the same 
to another guy after our divorce, who was not a Radio Amateur, of course.


6M and 4M (only available in some countries) can really get under your skin. 
Like I said, like Marmite, you either love it or hate it...


Dave
- Original Message - 
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 7:49 PM

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...


Is the band worth investing in? The answer is a resounding yes but invest 
wisely and you will be happy. Also one other point, for us worker bees out 
west the band opens always when you are at work or busy with family. When 
you sit down in front of the radio the band almost never opens.


Good luck!

Keith
AK6ZZ


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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Dave]

Personally, I used 50.090MHz as my centre of activity.

I used to notice on the DXCluster that, during a major opening, DX stations 
would drop down to frequencies around 090 to use CW for a bit of a rest from 
the pile ups on SSB, the Policemen on 110 and the other chaos of a 6M 
opening.


Yes, the Band Police are as active on 6M during an opening as they are on 
any other Amateur Band, yes, on SSB it can get intense in the pile up as on 
any other Amateur band and, yes, there are alot of CW operators who operate 
on or below 090.  I know, I've worked them in the past. ;-)


I was not on in January for SKCC, I will admit, but then again I've wimped 
out of many SKCC events recently on other bands as well.


Dave (G0DJA)


- Original Message - 
From: "WILLIS COOKE" 

To: "Jack" ; 
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...


Jack, your idea of lots of CW and mine differ quite a bit. If your CW is 
concentrated in the top 3 Khz of the CW band and you willingly give up most 
of the band to beacons and don't even miss the bandwidth you are not my kind 
of CW affecionado. I do at least venture down to 50.090 for my CQs and much 
to my surprise I sometimes get an answer. I made it my goal to get some 
activity for the Straight Key Century Club anniversary celebration this 
January and I was able to make 3 contacts during the month on 6 meters and 
one non "SKCC contact. But I only have a 21 meter high tower and beam and a 
KW on 6 meters. If five contacts in a month in only two states, all ground 
wave is not very little, we have a definition problem. In comparison I made 
452 CW QSOs on all bands and 90 on 160 meters.


Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart


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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Dave]

6M is one of those bands, like Marmite you either love it or hate it...

Most of the time, like 10M, it seems as dead as a doornail but when certain 
conditions are right, it opens up.  However, you have to be there when it 
does.


A good antenna is a must.  You can work the world on a 6M dipole or 
vertical, in the same way as you can use a 20M end fed wire on 160M, but you 
are putting yourself at a dissadvantage.


Personally, I would always use CW on 6M. 1. It's my favourite mode 2. fewer 
people use it on VHF (less competition) and 3. for modes like Aurora it's 
easier than SSB, in my opinion.


My best years on 6M were using a 5 element Yagi/Uda in a house on the side 
of a hill that faced North.  The Auroral reflections were great!  I also 
worked people using Sporadic-E and TEP propagation.  I would like to put up 
a 5 ele for 6M (or even 4M) here and get back on the 6M or 4M bands.


Dave (G0DJA)

- Original Message - 
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 6:08 PM

Subject: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...


I have seen some comments recently about six meters and I have never 
operated six meters.  I don't really have a descent antenna for six meters, 
just my 80-meter (ladder line fed) dipole or my hex beam that I can at 
least tune to six meters.


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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Jack]

First, I never said I only operated the top 3kHz on CW...nice try. 
Second, the "lots" of activity I mentioned was during specific band 
openings. I have been on 50MHz, intermittently, since 1961, including 
operation from North Dakota, which is the definition of desolation when 
it come to working stations when the band is closed. I accomplished 
6-meter WAS from there more than 30 years ago.


I did say the beacons do not impact 50.080-50.100 which is where most CW 
activity takes place, with occasional CW signals just above 50.100. In 
fact, you can find beacons down to almost 50.000 but they are *very* 
widely spaced. My use of 50.097 from HC was just an example of one 
operating instance.


Jack, W6NF/VE4SNA


On 2/26/2014 11:31 AM, WILLIS COOKE wrote:
Jack, your idea of lots of CW and mine differ quite a bit.  If your CW 
is concentrated in the top 3 Khz of the CW band and you willingly give 
up most of the band to beacons and don't even miss the bandwidth you 
are not my kind of CW affecionado.  I do at least venture down to 
50.090 for my CQs and much to my surprise I sometimes get an answer. 
 I made it my goal to get some activity for the Straight Key Century 
Club anniversary celebration this January and I was able to make 3 
contacts during the month on 6 meters and one non "SKCC contact.  But 
I  only have a 21 meter high tower and beam and a KW on 6 meters.  If 
five contacts in a month in only two states, all ground wave is not 
very little, we have a definition problem.  In comparison I made 452 
CW QSOs on all bands and 90 on 160 meters.

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart


*From:* Jack 
*To:* elecraft@mailman.qth.net
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:58 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

Sorry, Willis, but the beacons are operated in a narrow range of
frequencies well below the normal CW DX frequencies of 50.080-50.100MHz.
From Ecuador I heard many beacons from South and Central America, the
Caribbean and the US, and none of them were anywhere near my operating
frequency of 50.097MHz. Roughly 2/3 of my QSOs were CW and the remainder
SSB so the statement "there is very little CW" is absolutely untrue.

Jack, W6NF/VE4SNA

On 2/26/2014 10:45 AM, WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> Phil, 6 meters is vacant most of the time except for locals.  When 
it is good, it is mostly E skip with occasional F skip.  Some of us 
who have more than 200 countries on all bands except 160 and 6 like it 
for the challenge, but figure on a lot of tuning for an occasional 
opening.  There is very little CW, but there is some around 50.090 to 
50.095.  Most of the CW band is clobbered by beacons when the band is 
open.  A large portion of the stations on 6 meters have Technician 
operators who do not do code often.  If you find yourself tuning 10 
meters during the sun spot nulls, you will find 6 meters much like 
that during the sun spot peaks.  A four or five element beam will make 
6 meters look like 10 with a dipole or a vertical when the band is 
open.  Most QSOs will not even exchange names, just grid codes and 
usually don't even bother with 59.  In spite of all this, I still like 
it and operate it some.  It is much more interesting to me than
>  RTTY or PSK and one of the few CW stations you hear there will be 
K5EWJ.  So if the lower bands bore you and Digital bores you even 
more, then maybe 6 meters is your game.

>
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
> K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart
>
>
> 
>  From: Phil Hystad mailto:phys...@mac.com>>
> To: elecraft <mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>>

> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:08 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...
>
>
> I have seen some comments recently about six meters and I have never 
operated six meters.  I don't really have a descent antenna for six 
meters, just my 80-meter (ladder line fed) dipole or my hex beam that 
I can at least tune to six meters.

>
> The band is always dead quiet with the small exception of some noise 
spikes here and there but very rare.

>
> Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest 
in a nice multi-element 6 meter bean antenna?

>
> My most dominant operating mode would be CW but maybe some SSB from 
time to time.  I have no idea what's there as this band has always 
been blank to me.

>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Edward R Cole]

I have a friend that loads his G5RV for 6m but his signal is always 
about 20-dB weaker than mine.  I have a 3-element yagi that I 
converted from a Decibel-Products 73-MHz yagi that I scrounged up 
from pile of surplus stuff.  The elements were 3/8-inch aluminum 
tubing so I added some tubing that slid over the ends and use small 
metal hose clamps to hold them in place.  But making a small yagi or 
even just a dipole is easy.


The background noise will really pickup when you have a resonant 
antenna vs the 80m dipole.  I'm not familiar with a "hex beam" so if 
it can tune to 6m then is ought to work good.


Activity is spotty with not much happening between openings, 
contests, or local nets.  I ran with this small yagi at 20-feet for 
years.  I now have a 6-element yagi on a dedicated tower so the 
3-element is fixed to the side of my HF tower pointed toward the US 
West Coast (az=130) so my KX3 can monitor 50.125 whenever not is use 
otherwise.  10w works when the band opens!  Otherwise 100w will get 
out better with ground wave.

http://www.kl7uw.com/Tower_2_6m_2.jpg
http://www.kl7uw.com/6m.htm

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters

[PA2V]

Hello Phil,

I have been on 6 meters from 1988 untill 2012.
Worked 220 DXCC's from all continents. Even did some K7's and VE7's. Heard
KL7.
Six is a great but demanding band. You need to keep an eye on all monitors.
And when there is something happening, be prepared for some battle.

It is a great band with CW, SSB and digi modes. Just try it.
Your best time will be summer time while Es goes loose.
50 MHz is THE Eskip and Aurora band. Better than any other.
But success is for the prepared operator only. The UK Six Meter Group site
will tell you more.
Have a look on my pages at www.pa2v.com

Go for a 6 el one wavelength Yagi, LFA is superior because the clean
pattern.
Noise is your worst enemy.
Good luck, Peter PA2V 




Message: 4
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 10:08:46 -0800
From: Phil Hystad 
To: elecraft 
Subject: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...
Message-ID: <5cd2dc9d-202f-40b4-8da2-4c9ab67ea...@mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I have seen some comments recently about six meters and I have never
operated six meters.  I don't really have a descent antenna for six meters,
just my 80-meter (ladder line fed) dipole or my hex beam that I can at least
tune to six meters.

The band is always dead quiet with the small exception of some noise spikes
here and there but very rare.

Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest in a
nice multi-element 6 meter bean antenna?

My most dominant operating mode would be CW but maybe some SSB from time to
time.  I have no idea what's there as this band has always been blank to me.

73, phil, K7PEH
ie: 2014.0.4335 / Virusdatabase: 3705/7127 - datum van uitgifte: 02/26/14

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Phil & Debbie Salas]

I’ve enjoyed 6-meters since I was introduced to it in high school in the 
mid-60s.  All I used for many years was a Squalo antenna mounted on my Dad’s 
chimney on our house in Maryland.  With that and a 1-watt crystal controlled AM 
transceiver (Lafayette HA-650), I had a ball working across the country and 
even down to Mexico and Cuba when the band opened.  Now-a-days I use a 6M 
dipole for monitoring the band.  I also have a 4-element beam when I want to 
get a bit more serious.  But from my location here in the Dallas area, I can 
work both coasts with the dipole when the band opens.  The trick is to know 
when the band opens.

73,
Phil – AD5X
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[John Marvin]

Rick,

Be careful who you call ignorant. HDTV is NOT UHF only. After the 
digital transition most stations went to UHF. However, there are still a 
lot  digital stations in the high VHF range (channels 7-13). I can 
receive 4 high VHF stations in my area (Fort Collins, north of Denver 
CO).  There are also still a handful of digital TV (full power) stations 
in the US in the low VHF range (channels 2-6). On Channel 2 there are 8 
left in the US (nearest to me is KREX-TV in Grand Junction, CO) and 2 in 
Canada.


There are also more low power TV (LPTV) stations on Channel 2 (on the 
order of 50 in the US). Since LPTV stations haven't been required to 
transition to digital yet there is a mix of analog and digital LPTV 
stations.


So, if anyone asks, tell them you are trying to get DX reception of 
KSNV-DT in Las Vegas (nearest full power RF channel 2 to you) or KFTY-LD 
in Santa Rosa, CA (nearest low power digital TV station to you).


John
AC0ZG


On 2/26/2014 1:43 PM, Rick WA6NHC wrote:

I live in an HOA infested area, my mistake.

Six meters is a LOT of fun now that the concerns over channel two 
interference are gone.  When it is open, it's 'magic' to the point 
that almost anything works well.


I intend to put up a 'TV' beam antenna (not allowed by the HOA but 
others are around so that practice is ignored).  At least to the 
uninformed, it 'looks' like a TV antenna in size and shape.  I will 
take advantage of the common ignorance that HDTV is UHF, not VHF (need 
a smaller antenna now).  It will 'just happen' to resonate REALLY well 
on six meters.  ;o)  It's not my fault the HOA is ignorant and I don't 
intend to inform them of this matter. ;-)  The only real trick is that 
I don't own the roof or the outer 'skin' but since I'll be getting a 
new roof, I figure a case of beer or a bottle of Scotch to the actual 
roofer will be helpful in making connections to the roof.  I'll have 
them install a weatherhead for feedline, then have THEM attach the 
anchor to the roof and supporting mast (it will already be >40' above 
dirt, can't be taller because of a nearby airport).  Then I'll um, 
simply take advantage of what they left behind (and do the install 
when folks are at school/work).  I may even try it on a TV.  ;o)


In the meantime, I made a J pole tuned for the upper end of the band 
(back deck, completely HOA legal).  I can work the club repeater and 
others, while listening for band openings (KRX3).  It isn't ideal (too 
many of my computers, too close to the house), but I'm still building 
the station up while keeping most of it stealth.  Six meters has 
better coverage in hilly country than two meters, so wide area 
coverage is pretty easy here (Sierra foothills).  [The club repeaters 
are 6M-900Mhz with interties possible so we saturate our target area.]


So yes, a beam would be an excellent idea.  The cost for building a J 
pole varies with the cost of copper (don't use thin wall and don't use 
half inch on the lower halves, it flops too much, ask me how I know).


73,
Rick wa6nhc


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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Vic Rosenthal K2VCO]

My 2 cents: I am on the West Coast, and I have a 3-element beam at about 
18 feet for 6 meters. I run 100w from my K3, CW only. During the summer 
when there are sporadic E openings, I have worked stations all over the 
US, including the East Coast. VHF contests are also an excellent time to 
get on.  But it's mostly dead, especially in winter. I haven't 
experienced a single F2 skip opening this cycle (if there was one, I 
missed it).


I recall working stations all over the country with about 5 watts of AM 
phone in 1957. Imagine 6 meters full of heterodynes, wall-to-wall AM 
stations!  DX, too. But those days are probably not going to return for 
a while.



--
73,

Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Rick WA6NHC]

I live in an HOA infested area, my mistake.

Six meters is a LOT of fun now that the concerns over channel two 
interference are gone.  When it is open, it's 'magic' to the point that 
almost anything works well.


I intend to put up a 'TV' beam antenna (not allowed by the HOA but 
others are around so that practice is ignored).  At least to the 
uninformed, it 'looks' like a TV antenna in size and shape.  I will take 
advantage of the common ignorance that HDTV is UHF, not VHF (need a 
smaller antenna now).  It will 'just happen' to resonate REALLY well on 
six meters.  ;o)  It's not my fault the HOA is ignorant and I don't 
intend to inform them of this matter. ;-)  The only real trick is that I 
don't own the roof or the outer 'skin' but since I'll be getting a new 
roof, I figure a case of beer or a bottle of Scotch to the actual roofer 
will be helpful in making connections to the roof.  I'll have them 
install a weatherhead for feedline, then have THEM attach the anchor to 
the roof and supporting mast (it will already be >40' above dirt, can't 
be taller because of a nearby airport).  Then I'll um, simply take 
advantage of what they left behind (and do the install when folks are at 
school/work).  I may even try it on a TV.  ;o)


In the meantime, I made a J pole tuned for the upper end of the band 
(back deck, completely HOA legal).  I can work the club repeater and 
others, while listening for band openings (KRX3).  It isn't ideal (too 
many of my computers, too close to the house), but I'm still building 
the station up while keeping most of it stealth.  Six meters has better 
coverage in hilly country than two meters, so wide area coverage is 
pretty easy here (Sierra foothills).  [The club repeaters are 6M-900Mhz 
with interties possible so we saturate our target area.]


So yes, a beam would be an excellent idea.  The cost for building a J 
pole varies with the cost of copper (don't use thin wall and don't use 
half inch on the lower halves, it flops too much, ask me how I know).


73,
Rick wa6nhc

On 2/26/2014 10:08 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:

I have seen some comments recently about six meters and I have never operated 
six meters.  I don't really have a descent antenna for six meters, just my 
80-meter (ladder line fed) dipole or my hex beam that I can at least tune to 
six meters.

The band is always dead quiet with the small exception of some noise spikes 
here and there but very rare.

Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest in a nice 
multi-element 6 meter bean antenna?

My most dominant operating mode would be CW but maybe some SSB from time to 
time.  I have no idea what's there as this band has always been blank to me.

73, phil, K7PEH

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Keith Heimbold]

I am a huge fan of 6m and 6m DXing but the fact is that a lot depends on 
geography where you live like on top of a mountain or in a valley, antenna and 
QTH. 

On the west coast we have far fewer openings than elsewhere in the US 
especially east and southeast coasts. PNW and north Midwest even fewer still. 
The band is about patience this side of the country. So don't overspend on 6m 
out west. When I got the 6m bug I spent a lot of money on a stack of large 6m 
antennas and discovered that when the band is open a more modest antenna will 
suffice even with 6m DX openings. 

If I Iived in the northeast or even Texas or Florida I would probably put up 
something bigger because you will have 4-5x more opportunities and openings to 
use it there than out here.

Is the band worth investing in? The answer is a resounding yes but invest 
wisely and you will be happy. Also one other point, for us worker bees out west 
the band opens always when you are at work or busy with family. When you sit 
down in front of the radio the band almost never opens. 

Good luck!

Keith
AK6ZZ

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

> On Feb 26, 2014, at 10:09 AM, "Phil Hystad"  wrote:
> 
> I have seen some comments recently about six meters and I have never operated 
> six meters.  I don't really have a descent antenna for six meters, just my 
> 80-meter (ladder line fed) dipole or my hex beam that I can at least tune to 
> six meters.
> 
> The band is always dead quiet with the small exception of some noise spikes 
> here and there but very rare.
> 
> Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest in a 
> nice multi-element 6 meter bean antenna?
> 
> My most dominant operating mode would be CW but maybe some SSB from time to 
> time.  I have no idea what's there as this band has always been blank to me.
> 
> 73, phil, K7PEH
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Phil Hystad]

Wow.

Lots of opinions on-line and those I received off-line on 6 meters and the span 
from "forget that wasted band" to those who have DXCC and WAS on six meters.

Not sure yet if I learned anything specific or if I learned everything with no 
peaks in the information signal.

But, thanks for the comments and I see this is a topic gathering some interest 
and varying opinions.

73, phil, K7PEH
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[WILLIS COOKE]

Jack, your idea of lots of CW and mine differ quite a bit.  If your CW is 
concentrated in the top 3 Khz of the CW band and you willingly give up most of 
the band to beacons and don't even miss the bandwidth you are not my kind of CW 
affecionado.  I do at least venture down to 50.090 for my CQs and much to my 
surprise I sometimes get an answer.  I made it my goal to get some activity for 
the Straight Key Century Club anniversary celebration this January and I was 
able to make 3 contacts during the month on 6 meters and one non "SKCC contact. 
 But I  only have a 21 meter high tower and beam and a KW on 6 meters.  If five 
contacts in a month in only two states, all ground wave is not very little, we 
have a definition problem.  In comparison I made 452 CW QSOs on all bands and 
90 on 160 meters.
 
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart



 From: Jack 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...
 

Sorry, Willis, but the beacons are operated in a narrow range of 
frequencies well below the normal CW DX frequencies of 50.080-50.100MHz. 
>From Ecuador I heard many beacons from South and Central America, the 
Caribbean and the US, and none of them were anywhere near my operating 
frequency of 50.097MHz. Roughly 2/3 of my QSOs were CW and the remainder 
SSB so the statement "there is very little CW" is absolutely untrue.

Jack, W6NF/VE4SNA

On 2/26/2014 10:45 AM, WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> Phil, 6 meters is vacant most of the time except for locals.  When it is 
> good, it is mostly E skip with occasional F skip.  Some of us who have more 
> than 200 countries on all bands except 160 and 6 like it for the challenge, 
> but figure on a lot of tuning for an occasional opening.  There is very 
> little CW, but there is some around 50.090 to 50.095.  Most of the CW band is 
> clobbered by beacons when the band is open.  A large portion of the stations 
> on 6 meters have Technician operators who do not do code often.  If you find 
> yourself tuning 10 meters during the sun spot nulls, you will find 6 meters 
> much like that during the sun spot peaks.  A four or five element beam will 
> make 6 meters look like 10 with a dipole or a vertical when the band is open. 
>  Most QSOs will not even exchange names, just grid codes and usually don't 
> even bother with 59.  In spite of all this, I still like it and operate it 
> some.  It is much more interesting to me than
>   RTTY or PSK and one of the few CW stations you hear there will be K5EWJ.  
>So if the lower bands bore you and Digital bores you even more, then maybe 6 
>meters is your game.
>  
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
> K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart
>
>
> 
>   From: Phil Hystad 
> To: elecraft 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:08 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...
>  
>
> I have seen some comments recently about six meters and I have never operated 
> six meters.  I don't really have a descent antenna for six meters, just my 
> 80-meter (ladder line fed) dipole or my hex beam that I can at least tune to 
> six meters.
>
> The band is always dead quiet with the small exception of some noise spikes 
> here and there but very rare.
>
> Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest in a 
> nice multi-element 6 meter bean antenna?
>
> My most dominant operating mode would be CW but maybe some SSB from time to 
> time.  I have no idea what's there as this band has always been blank to me.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[kd7gc]

Bill, six is a very interesting band.  Are you familiar with the phrase,
hurry up and wait?  That describes six meters as it relates to CW and/or
SSB.  Generally there is no activity on six, except in major cities where
there are some six meter FM repeaters.  Other than I know that they exist,
including here in Phoenix, I know nothing further about FM on six.  A good
six meter antenna is important to hear and work CW and SSB when the band
opens.  My six meter station consists of the Kenwood TS480SAT driving a
Commander legal limit amp.  My antenna is a 9 element yagi from M Square.
My six meter antenna is at approximately 82 feet.  My six meter feed line
consists of LMR900DB from my shack out to the bottom of my tower, the
vertical run up to the top of the tower is made of LMR600, and my rotor loop
is made of LMR600UF.  I generally run about 1200 watts on six.  Here is the
thing though, the band is hardly ever open, so my TS480 basically just sits
there doing nothing.  It is important to leave it turned on though, because
if the band does open, I might easily miss it.  Band openings can last for a
matter of a few minutes, to many hours, but usually only about 15 or 20
minutes.  Therefore, if the rig isn't on, I probably won't know about it.
When I catch an opening, I can work 20 or 30 stations in a matter of 5
minutes say.  However, I haven't caught an opening now for probably 2
months, Hi.  When it happens again, I sure hope that I am in here and ready
to go, Hi.  The band is total chaos during a big opening.  It is hard to
believe how many stations instantly come out of the woodwork.

 

Six meters can be thrilling or boring at the same time.  I love it, as do
most of the gang that chase grid squares.

 

73

Alan/KD7GC

 

 

 

 

 

Alan R. Downing

Phoenix, AZ

 

From: Phil Hystad-3 [via Elecraft]
[mailto:ml-node+s365791n7584767...@n2.nabble.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 11:10 AM
To: kd7gc
Subject: Advice on 6 meters...

 

I have seen some comments recently about six meters and I have never
operated six meters.  I don't really have a descent antenna for six meters,
just my 80-meter (ladder line fed) dipole or my hex beam that I can at least
tune to six meters. 

The band is always dead quiet with the small exception of some noise spikes
here and there but very rare. 

Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest in a
nice multi-element 6 meter bean antenna? 

My most dominant operating mode would be CW but maybe some SSB from time to
time.  I have no idea what's there as this band has always been blank to me.


73, phil, K7PEH 

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Jack]

Sorry, Willis, but the beacons are operated in a narrow range of 
frequencies well below the normal CW DX frequencies of 50.080-50.100MHz. 
From Ecuador I heard many beacons from South and Central America, the 
Caribbean and the US, and none of them were anywhere near my operating 
frequency of 50.097MHz. Roughly 2/3 of my QSOs were CW and the remainder 
SSB so the statement "there is very little CW" is absolutely untrue.


Jack, W6NF/VE4SNA

On 2/26/2014 10:45 AM, WILLIS COOKE wrote:

Phil, 6 meters is vacant most of the time except for locals.  When it is good, 
it is mostly E skip with occasional F skip.  Some of us who have more than 200 
countries on all bands except 160 and 6 like it for the challenge, but figure 
on a lot of tuning for an occasional opening.  There is very little CW, but 
there is some around 50.090 to 50.095.  Most of the CW band is clobbered by 
beacons when the band is open.  A large portion of the stations on 6 meters 
have Technician operators who do not do code often.  If you find yourself 
tuning 10 meters during the sun spot nulls, you will find 6 meters much like 
that during the sun spot peaks.  A four or five element beam will make 6 meters 
look like 10 with a dipole or a vertical when the band is open.  Most QSOs will 
not even exchange names, just grid codes and usually don't even bother with 59. 
 In spite of all this, I still like it and operate it some.  It is much more 
interesting to me than
  RTTY or PSK and one of the few CW stations you hear there will be K5EWJ.  So 
if the lower bands bore you and Digital bores you even more, then maybe 6 
meters is your game.
  
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman

K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart



  From: Phil Hystad 
To: elecraft 
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:08 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...
  


I have seen some comments recently about six meters and I have never operated 
six meters.  I don't really have a descent antenna for six meters, just my 
80-meter (ladder line fed) dipole or my hex beam that I can at least tune to 
six meters.

The band is always dead quiet with the small exception of some noise spikes 
here and there but very rare.

Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest in a nice 
multi-element 6 meter bean antenna?

My most dominant operating mode would be CW but maybe some SSB from time to 
time.  I have no idea what's there as this band has always been blank to me.

73, phil, K7PEH

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Jeff Stai]

Ps. Regarding the availability of CW, I think that depends on the time you
spend on the band and the nature of the opening. When the dx is afoot from
outside the us there can be as much CW as ssb. In fact my main motivation
to upgrade from tech was to be able to work dx CW on six meters. But as
someone else said YMMV ;) 73 jeff wk6i


On Wednesday, February 26, 2014, Jeff Stai  wrote:

> Hi Phil, tune up your hex beam and start listening on 50.125. Also there
> are beacons between 50.060 and 50.080. Also watch for spots on your
> favorite cluster. But most importantly call CQ once in a while on 50.125
> ssb. Sometimes you'll find a dead band is really open. You can also try CW
> around 50.099. This will get you started.
>
> If you end up wanting to step up, a 3 element is inexpensive. You can put
> it on a cheap 20 foot pole lashed to a fence post. You can work a lot with
> this simple setup.
>
> Have fun! Jeff wk6i
>
> On Wednesday, February 26, 2014, Phil Hystad 
> >
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest in a
>> nice multi-element 6 meter bean antenna?
>>
>>
>
> --
> Jeff Stai ~ 
> wk6i.j...@gmail.com
> Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
> Facebook ~ http://www.facebook.com/twistedoak
>


-- 
Jeff Stai ~ wk6i.j...@gmail.com
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
Facebook ~ http://www.facebook.com/twistedoak
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Jack]

Jim, you have several CA neighbors who worked me from Ecuador last year. 
Yes, they all have very good antenna systems but when 6 is open you can 
work many stations, including DX, with a wet noodle.


I have been on 6, intermittently, since 1961 and I *know* you have to be 
listening to catch the openings. It is less true today with Internet 
access and real-time propagation systems but you *do* have to be 
monitoring in some fashion. A great example of this is the day I was 
hearing the KH6HME beacon from coastal Ecuador and worked *no one* 
during that opening. I had no Internet so could not notify the world and 
there was, obviously, no one monitoring since I called CQ for the two 
hour period the beacon was in, often at  an S5+ signal levels!


A big yagi is nice but for typical domestic operations a smaller antenna 
might be better. The big yagi will have a narrow beamwidth and high 
front/side and front/back ratios, making pointing critical. A small yagi 
or a one-wavelength loop might suit your needs and Sean's as well. I 
emphasize the loop because it is simple to build and, if dimensioned 
correctly, can be fed directly with 50-ohm coax. Mine was fed at the 
bottom and was twice as high as it was wide, with only a ferrite choke 
at the feed point to prevent radiation from the feed-line. VWR was under 
1.5:1. It's gain, according to modeling I did, was comparable to a 3 or 
4 element yagi.


Give 6 more of a chance, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Jack, W6NF/VE4SNA

On 2/26/2014 10:27 AM, Jim Bennett wrote:

Phil,

You'll probably get a ton of replies from the 6-meter / VHF aficionados, but 
unless you have some means of monitoring the band, either with your radio, or 
some web site, I think you'll may be disappointed. I've been licensed for 50 
years and have made only 20 QSO's on that band; 19 SSB and 1 CW. Most likely 
because I'm not aware that it is open. For me there are a lot of other bands 
(HF) where at least one is open 24-7 so I simply don't venture up there very 
often. That being said, I have operated in a couple ARRL VHF contests and was 
surprised at what I worked. My very first ever 6 meter QSO was with VE7JH on CW 
back in 2012. The other 19 QSO's included CA, BC, CO, and NE. All were made 
with a K3 - 100 watts into my 88 foot long, 450 ohm ladder line fed doublet at 
45 feet.

On the other hand, if I were allowed to have a tower (dang CC&R's) I probably 
would by now have built some sort of yagi for that band. There are lots of articles 
on doing just that, and the size of the boom and elements makes it something very 
affordable to construct, install, and tune.

YMMV. :-)

Jim / W6JHB


On   Wednesday, Feb 26, 2014, at  Wednesday, 10:08 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:


I have seen some comments recently about six meters and I have never operated 
six meters.  I don't really have a descent antenna for six meters, just my 
80-meter (ladder line fed) dipole or my hex beam that I can at least tune to 
six meters.

The band is always dead quiet with the small exception of some noise spikes 
here and there but very rare.

Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest in a nice 
multi-element 6 meter bean antenna?

My most dominant operating mode would be CW but maybe some SSB from time to 
time.  I have no idea what's there as this band has always been blank to me.

73, phil, K7PEH

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Jeff Stai]

Hi Phil, tune up your hex beam and start listening on 50.125. Also there
are beacons between 50.060 and 50.080. Also watch for spots on your
favorite cluster. But most importantly call CQ once in a while on 50.125
ssb. Sometimes you'll find a dead band is really open. You can also try CW
around 50.099. This will get you started.

If you end up wanting to step up, a 3 element is inexpensive. You can put
it on a cheap 20 foot pole lashed to a fence post. You can work a lot with
this simple setup.

Have fun! Jeff wk6i

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014, Phil Hystad  wrote:
>
>
> Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest in a
> nice multi-element 6 meter bean antenna?
>
>

-- 
Jeff Stai ~ wk6i.j...@gmail.com
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
Facebook ~ http://www.facebook.com/twistedoak
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[WILLIS COOKE]

Phil, 6 meters is vacant most of the time except for locals.  When it is good, 
it is mostly E skip with occasional F skip.  Some of us who have more than 200 
countries on all bands except 160 and 6 like it for the challenge, but figure 
on a lot of tuning for an occasional opening.  There is very little CW, but 
there is some around 50.090 to 50.095.  Most of the CW band is clobbered by 
beacons when the band is open.  A large portion of the stations on 6 meters 
have Technician operators who do not do code often.  If you find yourself 
tuning 10 meters during the sun spot nulls, you will find 6 meters much like 
that during the sun spot peaks.  A four or five element beam will make 6 meters 
look like 10 with a dipole or a vertical when the band is open.  Most QSOs will 
not even exchange names, just grid codes and usually don't even bother with 59. 
 In spite of all this, I still like it and operate it some.  It is much more 
interesting to me than
 RTTY or PSK and one of the few CW stations you hear there will be K5EWJ.  So 
if the lower bands bore you and Digital bores you even more, then maybe 6 
meters is your game.
 
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart



 From: Phil Hystad 
To: elecraft  
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:08 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...
 

I have seen some comments recently about six meters and I have never operated 
six meters.  I don't really have a descent antenna for six meters, just my 
80-meter (ladder line fed) dipole or my hex beam that I can at least tune to 
six meters.

The band is always dead quiet with the small exception of some noise spikes 
here and there but very rare.

Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest in a nice 
multi-element 6 meter bean antenna?

My most dominant operating mode would be CW but maybe some SSB from time to 
time.  I have no idea what's there as this band has always been blank to me.

73, phil, K7PEH

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice on 6 meters...

[Jim Bennett]

Phil,

You'll probably get a ton of replies from the 6-meter / VHF aficionados, but 
unless you have some means of monitoring the band, either with your radio, or 
some web site, I think you'll may be disappointed. I've been licensed for 50 
years and have made only 20 QSO's on that band; 19 SSB and 1 CW. Most likely 
because I'm not aware that it is open. For me there are a lot of other bands 
(HF) where at least one is open 24-7 so I simply don't venture up there very 
often. That being said, I have operated in a couple ARRL VHF contests and was 
surprised at what I worked. My very first ever 6 meter QSO was with VE7JH on CW 
back in 2012. The other 19 QSO's included CA, BC, CO, and NE. All were made 
with a K3 - 100 watts into my 88 foot long, 450 ohm ladder line fed doublet at 
45 feet.

On the other hand, if I were allowed to have a tower (dang CC&R's) I probably 
would by now have built some sort of yagi for that band. There are lots of 
articles on doing just that, and the size of the boom and elements makes it 
something very affordable to construct, install, and tune.

YMMV. :-)

Jim / W6JHB


On   Wednesday, Feb 26, 2014, at  Wednesday, 10:08 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> I have seen some comments recently about six meters and I have never operated 
> six meters.  I don't really have a descent antenna for six meters, just my 
> 80-meter (ladder line fed) dipole or my hex beam that I can at least tune to 
> six meters.
> 
> The band is always dead quiet with the small exception of some noise spikes 
> here and there but very rare.
> 
> Question:  is there any activity for six meters that I should invest in a 
> nice multi-element 6 meter bean antenna?
> 
> My most dominant operating mode would be CW but maybe some SSB from time to 
> time.  I have no idea what's there as this band has always been blank to me.
> 
> 73, phil, K7PEH
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice!

[Don Wilhelm]

Joe,

You are correct - I was looking at the RF voltage - not the power.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/30/2011 3:47 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> Don,
>
> > AM with its 50% power carrier and sidebands that change in amplitude
> > should present a less harsh situation than RTTY which is 100% duty
> > cycle.
>
> AM carrier power is 25% of PEP (not 50%). The RF voltage and current
> are each 50% of peak values which makes power 25% of peak. The US
> "legal limit" for AM is 375W carrier (1500/4).  For the KPA-500 this
> means 125W (certainly no more than 150W) carrier.
>
> 73,
>
>... Joe, W4TV
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice!

[Phil LaMarche]

Many thanks for all the responses regarding AM operation.  I'm good to go
and am happy to use the K3 on AM, having gotten rid of my heavy metal.
Everyone have a great weekend.

Phil

Philip LaMarche
 
LaMarche Enterprises, Inc

p...@lamarcheenterprises.com
www.LaMarcheEnterprises.com  
 
727-944-3226
727-937-8834 Fax
727-510-5038 Cell 
 www.w9dvm.com
K3 # 1605
KPA500 # 029

 CCA 98-00827
CRA 1701
W9DVM
 


-Original Message-
From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:w3...@embarqmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 3:25 PM
To: Phil LaMarche
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Advice!

Phil,

AM with its 50% power carrier and sidebands that change in amplitude should
present a less harsh situation than RTTY which is 100% duty cycle.  There
have been reports of running RTTY for an extended time with no harm.  But
the specification says 500 watts with 10 minutes key down and 5 minutes
standby.  It should do at least that well with AM.

The KPA500 has temperature alarms should it get too hot, so it should "take
care of itself".

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/30/2011 2:49 PM, Phil LaMarche wrote:
> When running the KPA500 on AM, it there any time limit before unkeying?
> While operating, the fan comes on and then it kicks into another speed.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice!

[Dick Dievendorff]

At low heat levels, the fans operate at low speeds.

As the temperature of the PA rises, the fans increase in speed (and they're
louder).  Depending on humidity, ambient temperature, and the free space
around the amplifier, the increased fan speed moves  heat energy out of the
amplifier.

If the PA transistors get "too warm", the firmware causes a
temperature-related fault.  That shuts the amplifier down until the
temperature returns to a safe level.

During development a number of amplifiers were subjected to very long key
down times, sometimes with restricted airflow.  We've exercised the
protection logic quite a bit.  That doesn't mean you need to run with all
the knobs to the right, but if the fans are running, that's good, heat is
being moved out.

The PA devices are not being operated at their maximum thermal rating. The
KPA500 temperature fault occurs before the RF transistor manufacturer's
maximum temperature rating.

Dick, K6KR


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil LaMarche
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 11:49 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Advice!

When running the KPA500 on AM, it there any time limit before unkeying?
While operating, the fan comes on and then it kicks into another speed.

 

Thanks

 

Phil

 

Philip LaMarche

 

LaMarche Enterprises, Inc

 

  p...@lamarcheenterprises.com

  www.LaMarcheEnterprises.com  

 

727-944-3226

727-937-8834 Fax

727-510-5038 Cell 

   www.w9dvm.com

K3 # 1605

KPA500 # 029

 

 CCA 98-00827

CRA 1701

W9DVM

 

 

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Re: [Elecraft] Advice!

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Don,

 > AM with its 50% power carrier and sidebands that change in amplitude
 > should present a less harsh situation than RTTY which is 100% duty
 > cycle.

AM carrier power is 25% of PEP (not 50%). The RF voltage and current
are each 50% of peak values which makes power 25% of peak. The US
"legal limit" for AM is 375W carrier (1500/4).  For the KPA-500 this
means 125W (certainly no more than 150W) carrier.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 7/30/2011 3:24 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Phil,
>
> AM with its 50% power carrier and sidebands that change in amplitude
> should present a less harsh situation than RTTY which is 100% duty
> cycle.  There have been reports of running RTTY for an extended time
> with no harm.  But the specification says 500 watts with 10 minutes key
> down and 5 minutes standby.  It should do at least that well with AM.
>
> The KPA500 has temperature alarms should it get too hot, so it should
> "take care of itself".
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 7/30/2011 2:49 PM, Phil LaMarche wrote:
>> When running the KPA500 on AM, it there any time limit before unkeying?
>> While operating, the fan comes on and then it kicks into another speed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice!

[Grant Youngman]

That should actually about 25% carrier. 

125-150 watts carrier -  500-600w PEP AM.  Shouldn't be any problem for the 
KPA-500.  Presuming one doesn't make an hour long old buzzard transmission. 


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2011, at 2:24 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> Phil,
> 
> AM with its 50% power carrier and sidebands that change in amplitude 
> should present a less harsh situation than RTTY which is 100% duty 
> cycle.  There have been reports of running RTTY for an extended time 
> with no harm.  But the specification says 500 watts with 10 minutes key 
> down and 5 minutes standby.  It should do at least that well with AM.
> 
> The KPA500 has temperature alarms should it get too hot, so it should 
> "take care of itself".
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> On 7/30/2011 2:49 PM, Phil LaMarche wrote:
>> When running the KPA500 on AM, it there any time limit before unkeying?
>> While operating, the fan comes on and then it kicks into another speed.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice!

[Don Wilhelm]

Phil,

AM with its 50% power carrier and sidebands that change in amplitude 
should present a less harsh situation than RTTY which is 100% duty 
cycle.  There have been reports of running RTTY for an extended time 
with no harm.  But the specification says 500 watts with 10 minutes key 
down and 5 minutes standby.  It should do at least that well with AM.

The KPA500 has temperature alarms should it get too hot, so it should 
"take care of itself".

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/30/2011 2:49 PM, Phil LaMarche wrote:
> When running the KPA500 on AM, it there any time limit before unkeying?
> While operating, the fan comes on and then it kicks into another speed.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] advice on a rig

[Gary, W7TEA]

Susan, I whole heartedly agree with Toby.  The Omni VII is a fine rig.  If
you're operating CW, the optional filters are a must IMHO.  They act as much
as band pass filters as "distributed roofing filters."  

Have fun, Gary W7TEA

-
73,

Gary W7TEA  K3 #1001
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/advice-on-a-rig-tp5446800p5447932.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] advice on rig

[Kim Bottles]

Susan,

I am no expert, however I sold an Icom 756ProIII and bought a K-3.

I would not move down to a ProIII if I were you. The K-3 is light years better, 
that is of course just my nonprofessional opinion.

Cheers!

Kim - K7IM
 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tony Morgan
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 12:37 PM
To: Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] advice on rig

Susan,
If you're sure you want to step down, you might check out the Ten-Tec 
Omni VII.
No complicated menus and very straight forward to operate.
Good QSK. Not as nice looking as the K3. ;-)

73,

Tony W7GO
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Re: [Elecraft] advice on rig

[Tony Morgan]

Susan,
If you're sure you want to step down, you might check out the Ten-Tec 
Omni VII.
No complicated menus and very straight forward to operate.
Good QSK. Not as nice looking as the K3. ;-)

73,

Tony W7GO
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Re: [Elecraft] Advice

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Hi Mike,

As per our list guidelines, Phil's posting was perfectly acceptable. We 
encourage non-elecraft related ham radio postings, as long as they are 
reasonable and do not morph into huge threads. We want to provide a 
resource for ham radio topics the Elecraft community is interested in. 
I'm constantly impressed with the amount of good ham radio information 
provided here.

I'll jump in as moderator if a thread is getting too OT or is getting 
out of control with too many posts.

Also, as per the guidelines, please email the list moderator (me :-) if 
you have a concern about a topic going on too long or being too far 
off-topic, rather than posting another email to the list.

73, Eric   WA6HHQ
Elecraft List moderator



W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
> Is it just me or have there been far too many off topic posts here?
>
> Towertalk is all abou antennas and towers
>
>   
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