[PSES] How to take down your 10+ Gig and more
Hi All, I have a treasure trove of data on most currently available ESD simulators for waveform purity and E-field emissions. The data took most of a week of my time to generate and $100,000+ of equipment, mostly donated for the purpose. One clear message that comes out of the data is that by far the worst case ESD hit on a fast data rate system is not what you think it is. A 2kV air discharge applied a certain, common, way is worse than any other ESD event. Also in the data, we are testing for ESD stress that cannot happen in the environment, thereby wasting resources. Also in the data, you can pass or fail an ESD test, depending on what you want, by just selecting the right simulator! I am going to do a complimentary presentation of this data in July, normally a few thousand dollars, coupled with my three day, PCB/system debug class in July, sort of a two for one summer doldrums event. The class is actually lower cost than the data presentation normally would be. If interested, call, text, or email me for details. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Product reliability in the field relating to standards testing
IEC61000-4-2 has been around for a long time. About 30 years ago myself and others presented to tc-77b improvements that were (and still are) needed. Those concerns still need to be addressed. Our current standard has us addressing ESD stresses that cannot happen and on the other hand ignoring stresses that do happen. I touch on these in detail in my classes to help my clients. Layer on this trying to arrive at a good model for real world conditions, an issue in all EMC related standards. I would like to address the human body model for a small piece of metal in the hand. My personal discharge, as measured by the instrumentation at Barth Electronics (right here in Boulder City, Nevada) is completely different than the model in 61000-4-2. The Barth instrumentation is the best in the world and I feel fortunate to be near them, about a 15 minute run away. My small metal discharge is very different in two ways. First, the body wave after the first peak has much less energy in it than in the standard. This most likely is easily explained because I have an athletic body from 45,000 miles of running and most likely does not affect test results all that much. However, my initial peak current is more than twice that in the standard using a 5 GHz bandwidth. Since the speed of light is one foot per nanosecond, nothing further away than my elbow can affect this part of the discharge waveform. And, this will affect test results. I think we need new data taken at a 5 GHz bandwidth. Separate from the above, we would like to minimize field issues from environmental stresses. So, I developed an interesting apparatus using an instrument from the chemical/materials industry coupled with an easy to make "antenna" that generates radiated EMI that is very severe. It takes out HDMI and other signals in the room when it is in use. But if it does not affect a design one can be reasonably sure one's device is not going to have problems in the field or at least you will know what the product response is, and if it is dangerous. I just finished building a better antenna from parts in our local Ace Hardware store. Starting now I will be demonstrating it for my attendees as part of my seminars, including one coming up. It will be interesting to see how it affects different products. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] RFID testing per AIM 7351731
Try NTS Fremont or Intertek. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: AOL MAIL Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 7:57:03 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] RFID testing per AIM 7351731 Hi folks, May I get recommendations for EMC lab in Bay Area (or West Coast) which is certified for testing RFID per AIM 7351731? Appreciate any advice. Thank you, Eugene Peyzner Fresenius Medical care This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.mail-2Darchive.com_emc-2Dpstc-40listserv.ieee.org_=DwMCaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=Wa2quix03STWvxtsiJREomcZJ4nNkxPpbg9KEGaelFZgj2iyQezDfJ3xDKiRDh-b=Rnd7xHsz7tbJNbxXoIeLtZhoMN5GayM4NuD-O-7vBLs=> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ewh.ieee.org_soc_pses_=DwMCaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=Wa2quix03STWvxtsiJREomcZJ4nNkxPpbg9KEGaelFZgj2iyQezDfJ3xDKiRDh-b=RTD24dyqrX2cFrbVJHbRyI4L9SdpFyNCdztkL6lbs8Y=> Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ewh.ieee.org_soc_pses_list.html=DwMCaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=Wa2quix03STWvxtsiJREomcZJ4nNkxPpbg9KEGaelFZgj2iyQezDfJ3xDKiRDh-b=Ca7srOkHvedynukMKm42oJhK147-Z_oKb2lWzPSGwq4=> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ewh.ieee.org_soc_pses_listrules.html=DwMCaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=Wa2quix03STWvxtsiJREomcZJ4nNkxPpbg9KEGaelFZgj2iyQezDfJ3xDKiRDh-b=PDx0IcC0kQy2QDYk_TgiqXgkiM57U5lvnuK85rwIn-o=> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net<mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org<mailto:linf...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] shielded probes do not work in the near field
Hi All, The following three articles and the referenced paper from my website show that, contrary to popular belief, shielded magnetic field probes do not work in the near field. The E-field shielding in magnetic field probes only work in the far field or for fields that are symmetrical about the center line of the probe. Take a look at the articles: * June 2008, The Square Shielded Loop - Part 2, Parasitic Coupling<https://emcesd.com/tt2008/tt060208.htm> (Electric Field Shielding of Magnetic Loops is Not Always Effective!) * July 2008, The Square Shielded Loop - Part 3, Parasitic Coupling Between Unshielded Wire Loops<https://emcesd.com/tt2008/tt070508.htm> * August 2008, The Square Shielded Loop - Part 4, Coupling to a PCB<https://emcesd.com/tt2008/tt080108.htm> (From Shielded and Unshielded Magnetic Loops) * Signal and Noise Measurement Techniques Using Magnetic Field Probes<https://emcesd.com/pdf/emc99-w.pdf> (~600K) * (1999 IEEE EMC Symposium paper) Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Reduce Speed of Moving Part to Reduce Risk
Hi John, You are correct, of course, about the content of a TR. The ISO Directives Part 1, clause 3.3 lays it out very clearly. The work on 21260 has been going on for quite a few years. Looking at ISO Documents, I can see the original NWIP in 2016. In the intervening years, it went from an IS to a TR for several reasons. The data included represents the state of the art. The WG is resolving the last of the comments from the CD ballot, and I think they will be recommending to TC 199 that the document proceed directly to stage 50 and on to publication in short order. Their plenary meeting report shows that they are proposing a JWG with ISO/TC 299 to develop a document entitled "Safety of machinery - Test methods to validate safe physical contacts between moving machinery or moving parts of machinery and persons.” This logical next step will allow the test methods and equipment described in ISO/TR 15066 and the data from ISO/TR 21260 to come together in an IS that will be useful to both the robotics sector and the general machinery sector. The project has not been formally proposed yet, and considering that the JWG has not been formed, there is no timeline for developing that document yet. As for consultation with other experts outside the WG, I think that the WG members who are actively involved have that in hand. I am only peripherally involved in the WG, as I chair the Canadian Mirror Committee, and I am aware of the work that some Canadian experts are doing in that WG. Best regards, Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On Jan 31, 2024, at 18:37, John Woodgate wrote: > > Indeed, you can't share it with the list, but, as I expect you know, you can > consult anyone in private communication who can contribute to the work. It is > a Technical Report, and recent rules changes closely restrict what a TR can > include. It is more or less confined to statements of fact. Not even > recommendations are permitted. > > On 2024-01-31 23:02, Doug Nix wrote: >> List members, >> >> There is currently a draft in development, ISO/TR 21260, Safety of machinery >> — Mechanical safety data for physical contacts between moving machinery or >> moving parts of machinery and persons. This document has a planned >> publication date that has already slipped by. The importance of this >> document is high, so I don’t think there is any likelihood of the work being >> lost, but the development of the document has taken a lot more time than was >> originally foreseen. >> >> Unfortunately, the document is in the Committee Draft stage, so I can’t >> share anything with the list now. When it gets to the public review stage, >> that will change. >> >> I think this document will prove to be very important. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Doug Nix >> d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org> >> +1 (519) 729-5704 >> >> >> >>> On Jan 29, 2024, at 19:50, sgbrody >>> <mailto:sgbr...@comcast.net> wrote: >>> >>> That standard is ISO 15066 which is Collaborative Robots. After measuring >>> force and then determining the surface areas of the part contacting >>> whatever, you can determine the pressure. >>> >>> This standard provides tables for allowable forces and pressures - both are >>> needed - to determine if the robot 'crash' is within acceptable range. >>> >>> For example, I have two clients using robots which are billed by their >>> manufacturers as collaborative, but it is the end effector when tested for >>> the 'crash' force and pressure, that will confirm they are collaborative in >>> that specific application. >>> >>> In both cases they were confirmed collaborative. >>> >>> However, if the flat surface of the end effector was replaced with a >>> needle, they would not be collaborative. They would be dangerous and >>> guarding would be required. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device >>> >>> >>> Original message >>> From: Douglas Powell <mailto:doug...@gmail.com> >>> Date: 1/29/24 7:05 PM (GMT-05:00) >>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Reduce Speed of Moving Part to Reduce Risk >>> >>> All valid points; however, I was taking my information from the established >>> ISO/IEC standards for machinery, with which I am familiar. I do recall >>> another standrd some years ago, mentioning contact surface area when I was >>>
[PSES] design rules of thumb
Hi All, Some time ago I published a set of informal design rules of thumb from many industries that also apply to electrical engineering. Since it was a while ago and many likely missed it, I put the link below. This is an example of some of the unusual sources of information that are often found in my seminars and classes. https://emcesd.com/tt2021/tt040621.htm The link will bring you to my Technical Tidbit of April 6, 2021 and a 16 minute video as well as a set of the slides. Just a word about me for those who do not know me well. I started my engineering education at age 10 resulting in me becoming a fully licensed engineer in the Radio and TV broadcast industry at the highest level of three at the time (First Class Commercial Radio Telepghone license). My first EMC problem solving came at about age 13 when the neighbors started complaining about my ham radio set. By age 15 I was doing consulting work for nearby police departments on wire taps and lie detectors. At ag 16 I built a Tesla coil powered by a pair of 811A high power short wave transmitting tubes. It developed about 600 watts of power at 300 kHz and generated fields of about 10,000-20,000 Volts/meter.(I am still here and my kids had two arms, two legs, and one head, but at least I don't get big and green when upset.) It pretty much took out radio/TV services in my neighborhood and brought the Feds to my house, but that is another story. So here I am (will be 77 in March) still doing engineering full time (and incorporating all that experience in my classes). Along the way I studied medicine as a hobby reading many thousands of pages of published research over the years. Currently I am in the top 6/10th of one % of all athletes worldwide of all ages for mileage run per year which is for me 3,000+ miles per year, a large portion of it at 110-115 degrees F in the Nevada desert! I can do this by applying my engineering knowledge of thermodynamics to running in the desert. An hour or two at 115F running in the desert is not stressful to m3! I design my own hydration drinks with the salt content a function of the dew point temperature. Give me a call if you are a runner! BTW, my next design troubleshooting class is in early March, Contact me if you are interested. Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] ESD Simulators cause irreproducible results!
Hi All, If you ever had issues with differing ESD test results between labs, you need to see my Technical Tidbit of November 2022, https://emcesd.com/tt2022/tt111822.htm Show that article to your test lab! The data in the article represents about ½% of the total data I have with simulator brands identified (which I will not do in public). Contact me privately if you are interested in the more detailed data. Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Reduce Speed of Moving Part to Reduce Risk
List members, There is currently a draft in development, ISO/TR 21260, Safety of machinery — Mechanical safety data for physical contacts between moving machinery or moving parts of machinery and persons. This document has a planned publication date that has already slipped by. The importance of this document is high, so I don’t think there is any likelihood of the work being lost, but the development of the document has taken a lot more time than was originally foreseen. Unfortunately, the document is in the Committee Draft stage, so I can’t share anything with the list now. When it gets to the public review stage, that will change. I think this document will prove to be very important. Best regards, Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On Jan 29, 2024, at 19:50, sgbrody wrote: > > That standard is ISO 15066 which is Collaborative Robots. After measuring > force and then determining the surface areas of the part contacting whatever, > you can determine the pressure. > > This standard provides tables for allowable forces and pressures - both are > needed - to determine if the robot 'crash' is within acceptable range. > > For example, I have two clients using robots which are billed by their > manufacturers as collaborative, but it is the end effector when tested for > the 'crash' force and pressure, that will confirm they are collaborative in > that specific application. > > In both cases they were confirmed collaborative. > > However, if the flat surface of the end effector was replaced with a needle, > they would not be collaborative. They would be dangerous and guarding would > be required. > > Thanks, > > > > > Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device > > > Original message > From: Douglas Powell > Date: 1/29/24 7:05 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] Reduce Speed of Moving Part to Reduce Risk > > All valid points; however, I was taking my information from the established > ISO/IEC standards for machinery, with which I am familiar. I do recall > another standrd some years ago, mentioning contact surface area when I was > looking into finger crush as well as sharp edges. And the original question > was solely about speed, so that's how I responded. > > All the best, ~ Doug > > > Douglas E Powell > Laporte, Colorado, USA > doug...@gmail.com <mailto:doug...@gmail.com> > LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/> > > (UTC-06:00, US-MDT) > > > On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 4:41 PM Richard Nute <mailto:ri...@ieee.org>> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Doug and Brian: >> >> >> >> I thought I would offer my (radical) point of view on the issue of “speed of >> moving parts.” >> >> >> >> Consider moving aluminum foil and moving aluminum block, both at the same >> speed. The aluminum foil has very little mass, while the aluminum block has >> relatively high mass. The foil is not likely to cause injury, while the >> block may cause injury. >> >> >> >> Consider an aluminum needle and an aluminum block, both having the same >> speed and mass. The needle is likely to cause injury, while the block is >> not likely to cause injury. >> >> >> >> Consider the time of contact with a moving part. If the time is long, then >> injury is not likely. If the time is short, then injury is likely. >> >> >> >> So, in addition to speed, we must consider mass of the block, contact area, >> and duration of the contact in predicting injury. >> >> >> >> In other words, energy per area (mv2 per area in this case) whether >> mechanical, thermal, radiant, chemical, or electrical, transferred to a body >> part for a (usually short) period of time, causes injury. The same energy >> magnitude transferred over a long period of time is not likely to cause >> injury. >> >> >> >> An injury occurs only when energy per contact area of sufficient magnitude >> and duration is imparted to a body part. Both the safety science article >> and the IRSST paper discuss energy of moving parts and area, but do not >> address the other parameters. Both introduce (to me) the concept of “force” >> on various body parts. I’m not sure of how this fits into this safety >> discussion. >> >> >> >> Consideration of speed alone is over-simplification. >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Rich >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Doug Nix mailto:d...@iee
[PSES] EN, ISO, or IEC adhesive label durability standards?
Dear colleagues, I am looking for EN, ISO, or IEC standards that are equivalent to CSA C22.2 No. 0.15, Adhesive Labels or UL 969 2023, Marking and Labeling Systems. I’ve done some searching on cencenelec.org, iso.org, and webstore.iec.ch, without finding any standards that appear to cover similar requirements. Specifically, I’m interested in the label durability tests, like the solvent test defined in CSA C22.2 No. 0.15. Any suggestions are appreciated. Best regards, Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Has anyone done an FDA 2877 Declaration for a laser before?
I have been asked about the requirements for submitting an FDA 2877 DECLARATION FOR IMPORTED ELECTRONIC PRODUCTS SUBJECT TO RADIATION CONTROL STANDARDS, for a laser used as a light source for microscopy. The goal is to use the exemption under 21 CFR 1020.50 (a) 3, "Used by trained individuals for research.” As I have not done one of these submissions before, if you have experience with this I would be open to referring the work to you. If you are willing to get me up on the topic, that would work too. Thanks in advance to all who respond. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Looking for someone with EMC & Functional safety experience for IEC Standards development
Colleagues, As some of you may know, Keith Armstrong is preparing to retire. One of the important projects he has been leading, IEEE 1848 on EM resilience is entering revisions for the second edition. An important EM standard referenced in that document is IEC 61000-6-7:2014, Electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) - Part 6-7: Generic standards - Immunity requirements for equipment intended to perform functions in a safety-related system (functional safety) in industrial locations. That standard was developed by IEC/TC 77, and has never been revised. It is approaching systematic review, and needs revision. However, the working group that drafted the original document was disbanded after the 1st edition was published, so there is no TC 77 sub-group to handle revising the standard. Keith is looking for people to engage with IEC/TC 77/MT15 to revise the standard. If you have experience related to EM phenomena and reliability or functional safety, and you would like to get involved with standards development, this is your opportunity. Keith can give you more information, as I am only peripherally involved. Please reach out to Keith directly: keith.armstr...@cherryclough.com <mailto:keith.armstr...@cherryclough.com>. See you in the trenches, Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Lasers
Hi Steve, Generally speaking for Class 3 lasers that are conducted from the laser to a receiver or point of use, the fibre should be interlocked with the laser safety interlock so that that laser cannot operate if the fibre is disconnected. For a Class 4 laser this is a mandatory requirement. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On Aug 18, 2023, at 17:10, sgbrody wrote: > > Laser Ecperts: if a 3B laser light is transmitted via fiber optic cable, is > there a requirement for any connections in that cable, if opened, trigger the > laser generator to shut down the laser? > > Cable is secured in place from end to end, but it is possible for service > personnel to unsecure the cable while the mandatory interlocks are defeated > for service and the laser is on. > > Thanks, > > > > Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All > emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/> > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> > List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> > Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org <mailto:linf...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. But in the case of ESD testing, IEC 61000-4-2 is not a very good standard. We knew this in 1996 where work done by myself and others showed that the waveform needs to have a di/dt spec to rule out the uncontrolled high frequency ringing many simulators generate that bear no connection to reality. This should be a reasonable simple design to do as one simulator already has no high frequency ringing on its current waveform. In addition, we now know these same simulators have uncontrolled radiation as well that does not reflect what equipment is subjected to in the field. All the work on the waveform was done about 30 years ago and should be in the IEC records. All this causes companies to spend hundreds of millions of dollars (my estimate from familiarity with my client’s designs) per year in delayed product introductions, and to a small extent engineering costs. The costs to redesign simulators would be a tiny fraction of what the current costs to industry are in only one year. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: Brent DeWitt Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2023 5:05:40 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems I suspect that folks who have been directly involved with air-discharge ESD can appreciate it's inherent, operator influenced, uncertainly. Having run both internal and third party EMC test labs, I recognize that few things are done "perfectly" (whatever "perfect" is), but I've always considered it my responsibility to catch the errors and correct them before they influence my customers outcome. The larger the lab, the more likely it is that the experience of the tester will vary. I am not saying that the customer show bear the brunt of that, the lab should have test review processes in place to mitigate it. Had to pitch in. Brent DeWitt On 8/12/2023 1:47 PM, John Mcbain wrote: The basic question is, "How good is good enough?" Risk standards for product safety address that question to some extent, but it applies to every lab measurement, whether the applicable standards (or regulations) consider it or not. Best regards, John McBain On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 2:26 AM John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>> wrote: But crossing t's and dotting i's is exactly what is required by competence standards, including the several ISO 170XX series. Furthermore, standards specify performance of test equipment, if possible, and only if that is not possible, they specify design. If that is not possible, they specify construction, and indeed many CISPR and other standards specify test set-ups with elaborate drawings. EMC testing is DIFFICULT. It does involve extensive experience and it is costly. Management systems are/should be in place to catch errors. Daily and weekly verifications are required. In many cases, running tests on a known sample are OK, but that's dodgy for ESD, because repeated testing WILL cause damage. On 2023-08-12 03:25, Ken Javor wrote: No way am I jumping in the middle of this debate, but it is extremely useful in another way. A few observations: ESD is by its very nature a chaotic event (air discharge more so than contact). It is not entirely surprising that someone who has spent decades working on something would find examples of non-idealities in the work of technicians doing rote work following canned test procedures. A test facility isn’t going to make a profit employing a septuagenarian devoted to crossing every “t” and dotting every “i.” (Written by someone pushing that age bracket pretty hard). IFF (if and only if) Mr. Smith’s observations are correct, that is an indictment of the test requirement/method. That is, it is the responsibility of the standards committees to write these such that they can be adequately performed by the average test facility and personnel. If it takes someone with five decades of experience, and they must spend an inordinate amount of time ($$$) to get it right, then the standard is a failure. -- Ken Javor (256) 650-5261 From: "doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMDaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=2PwUVOf-nkk5PGnCGiZ_awAOCLYGgF6VrmmUR0MyZYVG8A4TDFmh_VavNrLO9d-D=6y86ulvOYE9KMhGkDV_GoB-siQVeeaqGTdX8FXX3cRg=>" <mailto:d...@emcesd.com> Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMDaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=2PwUVOf-nkk5PGnCGiZ_awAOCLYGgF6VrmmUR0MyZYVG8A4TDFmh_VavNrLO9d-D=6y86ulvOYE9KMhGkDV_GoB-siQVeeaqGTdX8FXX3cRg=>" <mailto:d...@emcesd.com> Date: Friday, August 11, 2023 at 11:26 AM To: <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> S
Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems
I didn’t say most labs are bad. Errors do happen and for me almost every lab I have used has made a mistake. These errors are rare but do happen and the effect of a single error can be very costly. One lab made an especially bad mistake for a small company that engaged me that cost the company a lot of money, has since improved their game by instituting quality procedures they should have had anyway. The lab gave the company passing data but in fact the plot looked like the technician forgot to plug the antenna in, noise level of the instrumentation! Based on that, the company signed a contract for price and delivery for a million units of their product. The ultimate fix needed was a different core design of an inductor that cost them US $0.30. $300k is a lot of money for a small company. I can give many more examples. Usually the problem causes a product to fail when it actually should have passed. I have many examples that happened to me over the last 40 years in both private and commercial labs. The errors are still rare, but do happen. Over enough testing a person, like myself, will encounter an error with any given lab. Of the errors I have encountered, three were the result of the staff in the lab not being competent (over a span of 40 years), the rest were just simple mistakes, maybe another dozen or so. Again, this was over decades, so rare, but many millions of dollars were at stake in each case. In two cases, the lab personnel became a bit belligerent when I gently suggested they performed the test incorrectly. In both cases, the labs relented and retested after we examined the test standard and they realized they were testing incorrectly. A lab client needs to keep an eye out to make sure such an error does not happen to them. On the other hand, I have seen a lot of great labs. One, in Silicon Valley, I consider to be the best in the industry! But they did make one mistake on a test for me years ago, minimal impact at the time and it can't happen again. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: John Woodgate Sent: Friday, August 11, 2023 07:02 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems That's right. It is good to call attention to problems that may well be deeply hidden or not recognized as a possibility, but it is necessary to concentrate on the facts and leave out peripheral matters that don't help to deal with the issue. On 2023-08-11 14:28, Larry K. Stillings wrote: You could certainly word this in a different way that doesn’t generalize how “most” test labs are bad and/or incompetent. How about in the future you find a different way to word things. This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.mail-2Darchive.com_emc-2Dpstc-40listserv.ieee.org_=DwMDaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=AQbLI6yYUde_Q83E8xm-giFuu8VErE5y8fOfergBM5iZxYk2-pO-cenWPMbLLBpM=m4yUzqbO_YD3VLhC59edkQE-lRD7RI-yU_MEVD98tg0=> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ewh.ieee.org_soc_pses_=DwMDaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=AQbLI6yYUde_Q83E8xm-giFuu8VErE5y8fOfergBM5iZxYk2-pO-cenWPMbLLBpM=ORwQk6z-qsJYEmsPG1dXL9zJzd8_v-KXorv8oYvpzhI=> Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ewh.ieee.org_soc_pses_list.html=DwMDaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=AQbLI6yYUde_Q83E8xm-giFuu8VErE5y8fOfergBM5iZxYk2-pO-cenWPMbLLBpM=MAXI7wWalzsZ4teDuRcUyv0b6dYvhshYdO1UqypFyxI=> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ewh.ieee.org_soc_pses_listrules.html=DwMDaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=AQbLI6yYUde_Q83E8xm-giFuu8VErE5y8fOfergBM5iZxYk2-pO-cenWPMbLLBpM=_IkG3VV27j8mAb1M5kLgwM93RLsTRWzSj2NBG_3oXzM=> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net<mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org<mailto:linf...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering
[PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems
Hi All, Just a couple of thoughts on what a good lab should do for ESD testing and how to protect yourself as a client from test problems. 1. Bring an Ohmmeter with you to the lab and measure the resistance from the Horizontal Coupling Plane to the Ground Reference Plane. It should be about 2X 470 K. I have seen both commercial test labs and private labs where these resistors are open which can cause a product failure. A good lab should measure this value every morning and report the result in your test report.. 2. The vacuum relay in the ESD simulators have a limited life after which the current waveform becomes quite variable and at that point cannot give an accurate test of your equipment. Having a valid calibration sticker is close to useless as the condition can develop quickly. I have personally seen a rented simulator with a valid calibration sticker have this problem with its current waveform all over the place from one discharge to another. A good test lab will verify this is not happening at the beginning of each day. You as a client can tell from a distance by just making a small antenna by extending a coax center conductor 6 inches pass the shield to make a small antenna. Better would be to make a TEM antenna which does not color its output by its resonances. Connect the antenna to a scope of at least 4 GSa/sec sampling rate, preferably higher. You don't really care what waveform you get, say from 6 feet away, but each discharge of a series of ten should look the same. More to come! Most test labs I have used over the years made at least one mistake that affected the test results. I have had disagreements with labs, never lost one of them. Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Hazard warning labels on panel doors where COTS UPS installed?
Colleagues, I have a client who has installed a COTS UPS in an industrial control panel. The UPS is being used to keep the HMI alive in a power outage or if the disconnecting device is switched off. I have scoured the resources that I have, and I can find nothing that requires a label on the outside of the panel to indicate that there is a UPS inside. EN 60204-1:2018 does not address this. I have a copy of EN IEC 62040-1, and it does not require a hazard warning label anywhere. Any guidance you might offer is appreciated. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] UK extends CE mark recognition indefinitely
Thanks, Matthew, this is very helpful! Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On Aug 1, 2023, at 05:41, Matthew Wilson | GBE > wrote: > > https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ukca-marking-conformity-assessment-and-documentation > > Reporting: > https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/aug/01/uk-eu-safety-mark-brexit-climbdown > - the funny bit here is that the original article was accompanied by a > picture of a non-compliant CE logo, as per the final note “The image > accompanying this article was changed on 1 August 2023, to one of a CE mark > that adheres more closely to EU guidance on how it should be reproduced” > > The [UK] government intends to extend recognition of the CE marking for > placing most goods on the market in Great Britain, indefinitely, beyond > December 2024. These updates apply to the 18 regulations that fall under the > Department for Business and Trade (DBT). These are: > > toys > pyrotechnics > recreational craft and personal watercraft > simple pressure vessels > electromagnetic compatibility > non-automatic weighing instruments > measuring instruments > measuring container bottles > lifts > equipment for potentially explosive atmospheres (ATEX) > radio equipment > pressure equipment > personal protective equipment (PPE) > gas appliances > machinery > equipment for use outdoors > aerosols > low voltage electrical equipment > > Disclaimer: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential > and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are > addressed. > If you have received this email in error please delete it from your system, > do not use or disclose the information in any way and notify the sender > immediately. > The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the > views of the company, unless specifically stated. > > GB Electronics (UK) Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales under > number 06210991. > Registered office: Ascot House Mulberry Close, Woods Way, Goring By Sea, > West Sussex, BN12 4QY. > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All > emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/> > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> > List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> > Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org <mailto:linf...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Woodgate's reply on residential Immunity field strength
Hi All, My observation is that a cell phone at max power, close to the product, generates voltages and currents in the product that are on the order of what a 100 V/m far field would induce! I have seen many manifestations of this including making a product permanently non-functional. Interestingly enough, the design feature within that product that caused the issue was ground fill on a circuit board that was resonant in the upper cell phone band. Pretty easy to find with signal injection into the structure. These kind of problems are easily found using a coaxial dipole. Here are a few links: https://emcesd.com/tt2006/tt020106.htm https://emcesd.com/tt2010/tt080410.htm As with ESD, using the standards based test setup for troubleshooting these kind of problems is very inefficient. Once a problem occurs, I build a custom way of injecting signals, like the above, and find the problem very quickly. In this case, one just needs a signal source of appropriate power and the coaxial dipole. An interesting bit of my history. These days we think 10 V/m is dangerous. But when I was 15, I played for hours at a time with a device I made that generated a continuous signal at 300 kHz of 10,000-20,000 V/m and I am still here! I was developing 600 Watts of power from a pair of 811A power triodes oscillating at 300 kHz to feed the resonant Tesla coil structure I built. The effects were pretty amazing, lighting up fluorescent tubes 4-6 feet away to full brilliance with no wires and even incandescent bulbs would light in the vicinity, held in my hand! Pieces of metal nearby got hot from induction heating. I did lots of crazy technical things when I was 12-18 years of age. By the way, those 811A tubes above (the "A" versions had cooling fins on the plates) were powered from a 3B28 xenon gas rectifier tube and had 1500 V and at more than half an Ampere available on the plate caps. Enough to kill one rather quickly, but I knew what I was doing back then and survived to write this. Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] From: Charlie Blackham Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 0:06 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Woodgate's reply on residential Immunity field strength The residential level of 3m V/m was in IEC 1000-4-3 predates portable phones, WiFi, Bluetooth and all the other mobile and portable transmitters widely in use today. The 20+ V/m field strengths in these standards are what is obtained from a cellular phone at maximum power, or WiFi device, at approximately 0.3 m / 1 ft. Now, on live networks the 99% percentile transmit power of a cell phone is around 1% of maximum power, but that's not considered in safety standards such as SAR testing Best regards Charlie Charlie Blackham Sulis Consultants Ltd Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317 Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sulisconsultants.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=wj5sNmgwgR_ZaeiylApyxkaL3lAz5hfciU1k-Q7qKo_w6zUvVL78huPr0ln5Bt_y=zMRqUtXLpZFb8clC7VkPNo2yZvCxVnLMAWMcnUFr7zY=> Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247 From: Brian Gregory mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net>> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2023 10:49 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Woodgate's reply on residential Immunity field strength The reference for 20 V/m to EV chargers comes from UL 2231-2. This is not a medical standard, but Annex A does call out the medical standard 60601-1-2 as a reference, as well as CENELEC 50204. We can't figure out why; cell phones produce less than half that, and our WiFi transmitter is probably representative, and is rated well under 1 W. I could see a higher immunity standard as needed for commercial environments, say in a bank of 4-5 chargers. Following along in 61000-4-3, we agree with John that residential applications are clearly best matched to the definition for Class 2 environment, and the table in Clause 5 says the limits for Class 2 equipment is 3 V/m. 20 V/m does not show up in Clause 5 of 61000-4-3 for any class. So, I've should to reach out to a UL standards group and find out if this is really necessary for residential applications. Our local lab can't do more than 10, and an overseas affiliated lab is similarly limited. I'd like to know were this requirement comes from. This is more a question for EV Charging safety than a mainstream EMC question. As a backup, I could request a comment to Ken's point is if they define the peak of the modulation as 20 V/m. I don't know where these are defined. Thanks for all the detailed replies! Colorado Brian 720-450-4933 -- Original Message -- From: John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>> To: Brian Gregor
Re: [PSES] Order of attenuators
Hi All, It turns out the signal generator has an average output of only mW, but a peak power of 5000W or so. This is a small battery powered hand-held EFT like pulse generator, from Fischer Custom Communications, that I use for circuit troubleshooting. It will deliver thousands of Watts of peak power into 50 Ohms! The pulse is somewhat shortened from a standard EFT pulse to allow the use of 2 Watt attenuators. However, to minimize the stress on the attenuators they should be positioned as follows from the output of the generator: 3, 6, 20 dB. That way the 20 dB attenuator is more likely to survive and can even be a ½ Watt rating. If placed first, It will take most of the power and may not survive. EFT and especially ESD have extreme peak to average ratios and for signals like this, the lowest attenuation attenuators should be used first. Separately, I have a few guidelines for ESD or EFT debugging: * Generally, it is not very efficient to debug these problems on the official test sites. If this is done, in my experience, the solution will take a lot longer, may not be well understood, and likely cost more (because it is not the best solution). * I usually do not consult system documentation in the early stages of debugging, an inefficient use of time. * I inject voltage via mutual inductance or current through 1-2 pF of capacitance, known levels of noise into the circuit (I know how much signal the circuit is stressed with even though I may not yet know the circuit details). The injection, for mutual inductance, must have a short range, ¼ inch or less. * I find the part of the circuit causing the problem and then consult the documentation to finalize my fix. In one case it was a 20 pF cap to circuit ground. At that point, I had no idea of the circuit and why the fix worked until consulting the documentation. It took me 5 minutes to localize the problem to one single node in the circuit before consulting the documentation. That is after another consultant could not find the problem after 4 days of work using the conventional engineering methods we all know. * ESD/EFT like, but low level and no circuit contact, noise with close in injection is a very powerful technique for debugging a circuit that has an ESD/EFT problem. I have been fine tuning this procedure for about 40 years now. Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] From: Richard Nute Sent: Monday, July 24, 2023 13:51 To: doug emcesd.com Subject: RE: [PSES] Order of attenuators Hi Doug: Since the source is 10 mW, and the attenuators are 2 W (I assume resistive, 50-ohm, see attached schematic), then any attenuator should be able to dissipate the 10 mW of the source. However, to minimize power dissipation in each attenuator, they should be arranged 3 dB, 6 dB, and 20 dB. Best regards, Rich From: doug emcesd.com mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2023 12:15 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] Order of attenuators Hi All, Here is a puzzle. I have a signal source of average power less than 10 mW and I want to put three attenuators on the output, 20 dB, 6 dB and 3 dB. All are two Watt attenuators. What order should I put them on to minimize the chance of burning some of them out? This is a situation I encounter during my circuit troubleshooting. Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Order of attenuators
Hi All, Here is a puzzle. I have a signal source of average power less than 10 mW and I want to put three attenuators on the output, 20 dB, 6 dB and 3 dB. All are two Watt attenuators. What order should I put them on to minimize the chance of burning some of them out? This is a situation I encounter during my circuit troubleshooting. Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] "Morning with Doug" experiment session
Hi All, I was thinking of doing a morning's presentation of just live experiments, no slides, just a series of live experiments that most engineers will find interesting, and may demonstrate that circuits and measurements do not always act like we think they do. Here is a proposed list: Experiments for "Morning With Doug" 1. Loop shield e-field test for a magnetic field probe: Shows that shielded cables do not work the way many of us think they do. 2. Extended center conductor: implications of skin effect on circuits and EMC issues 3. IC coupling to a wire: Bad things can happen when an IC couples to a wire above it, do not let loose cables to exist in your equipment designs. 4. Shorted probe ESD: Why standard scope probes are not useful around ESD in the environment. 5. Jingling change ESD: One of my favourite effects 6. Altering probe response with external resistors for both current and voltage probes. 7. Pulse injection on a uP eval board: how to find vulnerabilities from the environment in a board design 8. Locating ESD and other pulsed events in 3D space with an oscilloscope: checking out an environment for problems or finding sources of field problems. I think this will take a morning, 3-4 hours. Anyone interested? I haven't decided on a cost yet. What do you think would be a reasonable cost? Each session, if there is more than one, would be limited to 6-8 attendees. We ARE going to have a lot of engineering fun! I am thinking of sometime next week for the first session. Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Current Probe for Surge Immunity Calibration Validation
I have found Fischer Custom Communication probes to be of the highest quality. I have found that with some other probes, significant E-field response is a problem, and you need to measure E-field response yourself. I have seen current probes with an E-field response as much as the intended H-field response! Give me a call and I will walk you through a few ways of measuring E-field response of a current probe. Too much to type here. Apparently, many manufacturers of current probes do not know how to do this. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: Brian Kunde Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2023 7:15:30 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Current Probe for Surge Immunity Calibration Validation Greetings Everyone. To validate a Surge Immunity Generator and CDN, the IEC 61000-4-5 standard refers to a "Current Probe" for measuring the Short-Circuit Current. I wish to buy one. Can anyone recommend a model and supplier/manufacturer of a current probe that they like and will do a good job for this application? Thank you all very much. The Other Brian This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.mail-2Darchive.com_emc-2Dpstc-40listserv.ieee.org_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=UlG-gaNuHbMtn9A6eCeApZtT521g09hqzYkEwvpYTM-MH766ZD5ZfNAR807Ibdc5=JhDWT2qkgmRN2ZYtz4dnLishBrtbHWl8rTUohDeGt60=> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ewh.ieee.org_soc_pses_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=UlG-gaNuHbMtn9A6eCeApZtT521g09hqzYkEwvpYTM-MH766ZD5ZfNAR807Ibdc5=ngbmKjtbtXxkaJglk-7k-kpYjAEqvZWpxYuvZYBJl18=> Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ewh.ieee.org_soc_pses_list.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=UlG-gaNuHbMtn9A6eCeApZtT521g09hqzYkEwvpYTM-MH766ZD5ZfNAR807Ibdc5=Ia7EOhDAgg3uCgeN0lDKVCc8oA3eATF7UCpAUT_HStI=> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ewh.ieee.org_soc_pses_listrules.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=UlG-gaNuHbMtn9A6eCeApZtT521g09hqzYkEwvpYTM-MH766ZD5ZfNAR807Ibdc5=ft-rY0QptSs5aJE1nntOXOREsu4XlR2JHNbiu5W6ViE=> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net<mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org<mailto:linf...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] EU Machinery Regulation official version
Hi Scott, Don’t I wish I could. At this point I’d need a well-tuned crystal ball. I don’t believe that the UK is quite sure where things will go. Since the UK is no longer a member of the EU, none of the law relating to the Machinery Regulation (MR) applies. For EU Members, the MR does not need to be transposed into national law like the directives did. It simply comes into force, and the members are expected to enforce it as written. But of for the UK? It’s anybody’s guess. They could stay with the MD since it’s already transposed into the The Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations 2008, UK SI 2008 No. 1597. They could modify UK SI 2008 No. 1597. They could lift the entire MR and adopt it as a new UK regulation. We’ll have to wait and see. As we get closer to the mandatory date they should start to tell people what they have in mind. My concern is that the new MR is considerably modernized, including clauses on AI and cybersecurity, and the former MD Annex IV list is gone, replaced with a more rational means of identifying dangerous machinery. If the UK stays with UK SI 2008 No. 1597, then they will be sliding backward compared to their closest neighbours. On the other hand, if they get a grip and decide to rejoin the EU as they likely should, then the new MR will come into force on the day they join. We shall see. Get your popcorn ready. It’s gonna be a wild ride I think. Best, Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On Jul 13, 2023, at 21:04, Scott Xe wrote: > > >> Dear Doug, >> >> Regarding the UK implementation part in your article, can you elaborate the >> details of the UK implementation after the end of the transition date of >> 31/12/2024? >> >> Thanks and regards, >> >> Scott >> >> On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 at 00:59, > <mailto:scott...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> Thanks, Doug! >>> >>> >>> >>> Scott >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Doug Nix mailto:d...@ieee.org>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 2:24 AM >>> To: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com>> >>> Subject: Re: [PSES] EU Machinery Regulation official version >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Scott, >>> >>> >>> >>> If you are using the EM Machinery Regulation for CE Marking then, yes, of >>> course it does. See articles 23 and 24 of the regulation. >>> >>> >>> >>> Doug Nix >>> d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org> >>> +1 (519) 729-5704 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 4, 2023, at 12:45, Scott Xe >> <mailto:scott...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Doug, >>> >>> >>> >>> Many thanks for your brief and useful information! I wonder if this >>> regulation still requires a DoC. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Scott >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] EU Machinery Regulation official version
Yes. See articles 23 and 24. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On Jul 4, 2023, at 12:45, Scott Xe wrote: > > Dear Doug, > > Many thanks for your brief and useful information! I wonder if this > regulation still requires a DoC. > > Best regards, > > Scott > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] EU Machinery Regulation official version
Hi All, I just published short article that includes links to the official version of the regulation and to a guide published in English by ETUI and Eurogip. Hope it’s helpful for you. https://machinerysafety101.com/2023/07/03/the-new-eu-machinery-safety-regulation-is-coming-are-you-ready/ Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On Jul 1, 2023, at 05:30, Charlie Blackham > wrote: > > Brian > > If you’ve not come across it already, I recommend joining the LinkedIn group > “Machinery Safety, Regulations and Standards for CE/UKCA” > https://www.linkedin.com/groups/3995029/ > > Best regards > Charlie > > Charlie Blackham > Sulis Consultants Ltd > Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317 > Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/ > Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247 > > From: Brian Kunde > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 6:54 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] EU Machinery Regulation official version > > Is there a good source of information on the application of this new > directive? Are there any good articles or summaries comparing the new > directive to the old? Are there implementation dates? Can we declare > compliance to the new directive now, or are their other hurdles that need to > be put into place? > > Is there a source for good comments and discussion on this? I have only just > started to dig into it. > > Thanks to all. > The Other Brian > > > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:12 PM Lauren Crane > <1afd08519f18-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > <mailto:1afd08519f18-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> wrote: > FYI – now published in the OJ -- > https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32023R1230 > > Best Regards, > -Lauren > > > LAM RESEARCH CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any > documents, files, or previous e-mail messages attached to it, (collectively, > "E-mail Transmission") may be subject to one or more of the following based > on the associated sensitivity level: E-mail Transmission (i) contains > confidential information, (ii) is prohibited from distribution outside of > Lam, and/or (iii) is intended solely for and restricted to the specified > recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible > for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained > in or attached to this message is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received > this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender and destroy > the original transmission and its attachments without reading them or saving > them to disk. Thank you. > > Confidential – Limited Access and Use > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> > > To unsubscribe from th
[PSES] Help guide the development of a new machinery EMC standard
Colleagues, You are invited to complete the IEEE Standards Association 1848-MSSV Survey. The survey is designed to help the 1848-MSSV committee better understand the kinds of EMC resilience techniques and measures your organization employs when designing and building the control systems for your machines. The survey results will guide the development of the new IEEE 1848.1 Standard on Techniques and Measures to Manage Functional Safety and Other Risks with Regards to Electromagnetic Disturbances – Machinery Sector. You can learn more about the project on the committee website <https://sagroups.ieee.org/1848-mssv/>. The survey is entirely voluntary. You can stop at any time. You can complete the survey anonymously. There is no need to reveal any private or proprietary information. The last day for completion of the survey is September 30, 2023. If you have any questions about the survey or its purpose, please contact the 1848-MSSV Chair, Mr. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org>. You can access the survey here: https://forms.gle/uyNop51jEjFh91RcA Thank you for your help! Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Machine status visual Indicators
In the province of Québec, they use stoplights that have shape coding. The lights are mounted horizontally above the roadway. the left and right ends have larger, circular, red lights. The amber light is diamond shaped and immediately to the right of the left-most red light. The green light is smaller than the red light, and circular. Arrow-shaped lights are used for straight-through only and left or right turn lights. Some signals have bi- or tri-colour arrows to add a further dimension to the signalling. I tried to find a good series of photos to show this, but didn’t have much luck unfortunately. Also, you may want to look at these standards: EN 61310-1:2008 Safety of machinery — Indication, marking and actuation — Part 1: Requirements for visual, acoustic and tactile signals (IEC 61310-1:2007) EN ISO 7731:2008 Ergonomics — Danger signals for public and work areas — Auditory danger signals ISO 11429:1996 Ergonomics – System of auditory and visual danger and information signals Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On Jun 23, 2023, at 18:13, IBM Ken wrote: > > Hi Steve! I don't have a copy of that standard but I'm picturing the > red/yellow/green towers on things like manufacturing floor hipot testers. > Have you considered the colorblind user who might not be able to discern > yellow from red, but on a 'stoplight'-like tower, can at least use the > illuminated position to determine the indicator status? > > -Ken A > > On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 2:52 PM Steve Brody <mailto:sgbr...@comcast.net>> wrote: >> Experts, >> >> I have a client who would like to use a single LED capable of multiple >> colors instead of a mutli-lamp light tower that we are used to seeing. >> >> It can produce the required colors in accordance with 60204-1, Table 4. >> >> I have read through 60204-1 (machinery) safety and 61310-1 (requirements for >> visual, acoustic, and tactile signals) and did not find anything that >> prohibits the use of a single LED. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> >> >> Steve Brody >> sgbr...@comcast.net <mailto:sgbr...@comcast.net> >> C - 603 617 9116 >> - >> >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to >> emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> >> >> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: >> https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 >> > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Looking for AI or machine vision related ISO standards for safety
Hi David, At the moment, only one machinery related standard even opens the door for AI in functional safety systems: ISO 13849-1:2023. That standard only says that AI “can be used,” but immediately goes on to say that no information on how to do that or how to validate the results are given in the standard. ISO JTC 1/SC 42 and IEC/TC 65/SC 65A have been working on a document, ISO/IEC/DTR 5469, Artificial intelligence — Functional safety and AI systems <https://www.iso.org/standard/81283.html>, for some time now, and there is no available target date for publication. The automotive sector has made more progress in this direction. There was an IEEE SA webinar entitled "RISK-BASED METHODOLOGY FOR DERIVING SCENARIOS FOR TESTING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE SYSTEMS <https://engagestandards.ieee.org/Risk-Based-Methodology-AI-Systems-Registration.html>” that discussed a risk assessment methodology that Barnaby Simkin from NVIDIA developed. It was good, but I think it’s very premature to be entrusting safety to AI systems. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On Jun 7, 2023, at 10:37, David Huff wrote: > > All, > I am working to guide a design that uses Artificial Intelligence and machine > vision thru a certification type process (CE Mark) and I am looking for ISO > or IEC standards or similar related guidance. My theory is that this is such > new territory very little guidance exists yet. Are there any recommendations > for international guidance. > > Thanks, > David > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Unknown SI and EMC approaches
Hi All, First a few questions: 1. Do you know what US State has an EMC requirement that a company must meet to sell certain types of products there? And, why you might want to do this test on your equipment to avoid field issues that can be costly. 2. ESD testing completely misses a lot of things that happen in the field. We test with a small number of discharges of high amplitude. What about a system interface that receives tens of thousands of small ESD over time, slowly damaging the equipment until failure happens on the 10,000th discharge? 3. How do you handle an ESD problem where the system is sensitive only 0.1% of the time, but the effect, when it happens, is not good, even catastrophic? 4. How can one measure ground bounce in ten minutes in an IC package without connecting to the package pins? 5. How can one find the on-board source of a glitch that is corrupting a signal in a few minutes? 6. And more I am thinking of giving a virtual presentation later next week on lab methods to answer the above questions and more. None of the above procedures are widely known in the SI and EMC world. The presentation will be about a half day or a bit longer. There will be a small charge. I have not worked out the details, but if you are interested, contact me via email or phone call. The more people interested, the smaller the charge will be. On my end, I will need about a day to put it together and set up some lab experiments to do during the presentation. Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Rated Mains Operating Voltage Regional Compatibility [General Use]
Hi Phil, IEC 60038 defines the standard nominal voltages, but that doesn’t necessarily reflect the reality on the ground. IEC operates the “World plugs” web page that gives the national standard voltages and plugs used by country: https://iectest.iec.ch/world-plugs, however, they only list single-phase voltages. There is a similar reference at https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plug-voltage-by-country/. I have not found an online reference for three-phase voltages, Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On May 6, 2023, at 05:09, Agar, Philip (Leonardo, UK) > <220ac8787b71-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > Please could someone advise me on what standard, if any, might compel a > manufacturer to rate the operating voltage of their equipment to at least > cover the utility supply tolerance of the region in which it is being sold? > For example, a DoC for an IT item sold in the UK claims conformance with the > requirements of LVD Directive 2014/35/EU and EN62368-1:2014+A11:2017 but it > is not clear to me that the specified voltage rating of 100 - 240 Vac > necessarily covers UK utility supply tolerance of up to 253 Vac, or even in > much of the EU at 243.8 Vac. > > Thanks, > Phil Agar > EMC Compliance > > > > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: > David Heald: > _ > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] ❌ ISO 13849-1:2023 – Do Not Use ❌
Colleagues, Last week, ISO published a new edition of ISO 13849-1. I strongly recommend that you DO NOT use this standard, as it has some very significant technical flaws. During the FDIS ballot a large number of technical comments were received, but resolution of those comments was deferred until some undetermined later date. If you want to know what the problems are with this standard, please read my article on the topic: ❌ ISO 13849-1:2023 – Do Not Use ❌ <https://machinerysafety101.com/2023/05/01/do-not-use-iso-13849-1-2023/>. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] EStops
Hi Steve, As far as ISO 13850 and ISO 12100 are concerned, there is no problem with a button on a post lagged to the floor. As long as the estop device is located “within reach” of the operator’s normal location, usually interpreted as about 1 m either side of the centreline of the workstation or position where a worker is expected to be, then it’s fine. If there is no defined workstation, then you’ll either need a post every 2 m with a button on it, or an overhead pull cord with drop cables and t-handles or triangular grips dropped every 2 m along the length of the cable. Have a look at my article, https://machinerysafety101.com/2018/08/28/emergency-stop-pull-cords/. There are some suggestions for drop handles in the “markers” section. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On Apr 20, 2023, at 16:21, sgbrody wrote: > > Experts, > > Have read through EN ISO 13850 know that an ESTOP can be a button on the > machine, or a floor mounted foot actuator, or a rope pull. > > The option my client's customer would like is a post, lagged to the floor, > that has the ESTOP mounted on it. > > I can't give you information on the system other than to say that there are > carts 90 degrees to each other and due to the size of the carts, an ESTOP > can't be reached by an operator if it was mounted on the frame that the carts > attach to. > > And so the question about post mounted ESTOPS. The posts would marked to > prevent becoming a tripping hazard. > > Thoughts? > > > Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Consultant story
"A giant ship's engine broke down and no one could repair it, so they hired a Mechanical Engineer with over 30 years of experience. He inspected the engine very carefully, from top to bottom. After seeing everything, the engineer unloaded his bag and pulled out a small hammer. He knocked something gently. Soon, the engine came to life again. The engine has been fixed! A week later the engineer mentioned to the ship owner that the total cost of repairing the giant ship was $20,000. "What?!" said the owner. "You did almost nothing. Give us a detailed bill." The answer is simple: Tap with a hammer: $2 Know where to knock and how much to knock: $19,998 The importance of appreciating one's expertise and experience...because those are the results of struggles, experiments and even tears. If I do a job in 30 minutes it's because I spent 20 years learning how to do that in 30 minutes. You owe me for the years, not the minutes." --- In my case I solved my first EMC problem about 62 years ago! My engineering education began at age 11 by private tutor and by age 16, I was a federally licensed RF engineer at the highest of three levels in the radio/tv broadcast industry. University was a piece of cake for me. Been going nearly 24/7 now in engineering since age 11! I started running about 50 years ago as well. It's been quite a life. BTW, although I am "elderly," I am definitely not frail. I will likely finish 2023 having run about 3,250 miles, a significant part of that will be this summer in Southern Nevada at 110-115°F/46°C! I passed 900 miles in 2023 several days ago. That puts me in the top 1% of athletes worldwide of all ages. Last year I ran 2561 miles so I am dialing up the running significantly this year. If you use Strava, just look for Doug Smith in Boulder City, NV. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] “Morning with Doug” virtual experiment session
Hi All, I am going to hold virtual experiment sessions next Tuesday the 18th. There will be two sessions, one at 9 am PDT (US West Coast) and 1 pm PDT. I will perform multiple live experiments on operating circuits that I have developed from my research. Some of them have the opposite result most engineers expect but in the process convey useful information and dispel common engineering myths. The experiments are not, for the most part, known in the engineering world. If you are interested, contact me privately via email or call me. Although not free it is cheap. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] A morning of experiments
Hi All, I was thinking of presenting a morning of experiments demonstrating troubleshooting techniques I have developed over time via web meeting. The presentation would not have any slides but be all demonstrations of techniques. Most of the techniques are not well known in the engineering world. The presentation would be a week from today starting at 9 am Pacific Daylight Time. This would not be free but low cost. If you are interested contact me directly. I figure I can practically handle 6-8 people on the web meeting. If you can get here, Boulder City, NV near Hoover Dam and Las Vegas you are welcome to attend in person. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Op amp circuit design to avoid noise issues
Hi All, Op amps can be sensitive to digital noise on the same or adjacent PCBs in a system as well as to emissions from RF sources like cell phones. Here is an article on a technique that has been 100% effective since I discovered it over 40 years ago. I still use it on modern circuits and it still works. https://emcesd.com/tt2013/tt110113.htm What you see on my website (almost 300 articles and papers I have written) is a small fraction of the techniques I have available for validating and debugging designs and avoiding issues in the first place. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D95108.E7392350] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] filtering contact discharges to get a more realistic discharge at high voltages
Hi All, We were recently discussing contact discharges at high voltages, like 20 kV, being very far from reality. There is a way to make a nice repeatable contact discharge corresponding to high voltages by filtering the output of the ESD simulator. Here is one example intended for another purpose but fits the bill. The simple ferrite filter slowed the risetime and clipped off the initial spike, both characteristic of high voltage discharges in air, but much more repeatable than a real air discharge. Here is the article: https://emcesd.com/tt2005/tt090105.htm Here are a few more of my Technical Tidbits on filtering contact discharges: https://emcesd.com/tt2006/tt090106.htm low pass filtering https://emcesd.com/tt2006/tt090106.htm high pass filtering By filtering contact discharges, we can make them more realistic at high voltages but still keep the repeatability of the contact discharge compared to air discharge. At 4 kV contact discharges are much like air discharges for the current waveform, so we are OK there. By the way, here is some data on air discharge repeatability: https://emcesd.com/tt2011/tt040711.htm current measurements at 8 and 15 kV https://emcesd.com/tt2012/tt030712.htm current measurements on system cables from air discharges This is just a tiny sample of data that I have. More recent, official data (not on my website) I took at Barth Electronics in Boulder City, Nevada, USA. They have the most accurate and elaborate equipment I am aware of for measuring current and E-field emissions from ESD simulators in the world. They are very convenient to me, about a 15 minute run from my office (on foot, of course). Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D95104.A5699760] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Resend of complete message on ESD thoughts
Hi Brent and the group. I agree as long as we stay under 8 KV. For 20 kV discharge, I would use a (easy to build) filter that slows the rise to that more like a real discharge. Nice repeatable contact discharge that more closely resembles reality. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: Brent DeWitt Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 3:54:22 PM To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Resend of complete message on ESD thoughts I'll jump in quickly to state my opinion: Contact discharge does not represent any "natural" mechanism I know of, but I prefer it because it seems to have the highest repeatability in revealing a device's vulnerability. -Brent, "If I can't be 'right', I at least want to be consistent about it" On 3/6/2023 6:40 PM, doug emcesd.com wrote: Hi John and Chas, I and others presented the strong evidence in the late 1990s of problems, including irreproducible results, and I see the results of these problems all the time. 1. Many products fail because of E-field emissions from the simulators, which is not controlled in the standard unless recently revised. This needs to be done. I have seen many products that fail by emissions. The emissions from many simulators are far worse (10x or more) than any natural ESD event. There is at least one simulator that has an emissions profile similar to a real ESD event, the rest are over testing in a way that does not add value as it does not correspond to what can actually happen. 2. To get reproduceable results between simulators (which is a BIG problem) a max di/dt specification needs to be added to the standard as I and others proposed in the 1990s. Without this, the standard is fatally flawed and leads to random results between simulators. I and others run into this all the time. I can tell you which brands will fail a good product that actually should pass, this from the large amount of data I have generated at considerable expense to myself. This data is presented in some of my classes. 3. Just because one does not see field problems in the field (I do see such problems quite a bit) does not mean the standard is good. When a test is used that does not come remotely close to a real possible event (such asa 20 kV contact discharge used in some industries), it increases costs for everyone for no purpose. I have tons of data to support my points, some generated for the IEC in the 1990s, which should be available and more modern and voluminous data I generated in the last year or so at my own personal expense for inclusion in seminars. My personal experience also shows that agrees with my data. I am very familiar with Michael King’s contributions which were very significant but limited by the instrumentation available at the time. But even in the 1990s, the data clearly showed some changes to IEC 61000-4-2 were needed. In looking through my more recent data, there are patterns that show some interesting conclusions on ESD testing. I took the data in a way that exposed them, which we did not do in the 1990s because we did not know back then. I have helped my clients pass quite a few ESD and EMC tests by taking advantage of problems with the standards. Passing with no changes is good. They still officially passed by accredited labs and procedures but with no changes or money spent against an original fail to get quickly to market. Doug [cid:part1.OeU0Kvx0.DbFKJXkb@ix.netcom.com] From: Chas Grasso <mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com> Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 7:02 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Resend of complete message on ESD thoughts Good points John. On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 7:58 AM John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>> wrote: This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: j...@woodjohn.uk<mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> There are two good points about 61-4-2:the test results are repeatable and products that pass the tests rarely suffer from ESD failures in the field. But there are, even so, unresolved issues and doubts about the relations between the tests and actual ESD events. Because the present standard 'works', strong evidence would be required to support a proposal for change, and that is not forthcoming. == Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only www.woodjohn.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.woodjohn.uk=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=rpPAb2eJTrWbEN526jRAWfZ3KRUZLG3E9AyCvM8yX5I=ZNZiOeLiHc9pOq1APn37fQTPxLbUEMXhaIsJbjTjCAc=> Rayleigh, Essex UK I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I understand. Xunzi
[PSES] Resend of complete message on ESD thoughts
Hi All, I have a few thoughts I would like to share with you on ESD that have comes out of my private research into the field in recent years. 1. A 2kV air discharge can be much more likely to cause equipment malfunction than any other discharge of any voltage. 2. There is no natural ESD event comparable to a 15-20+ kV contact discharge so why test for it? That is designing for something that is extremely unlikely at best. 3. The IEC61000-4-2 does not very well model real ESD events at all. One example, my hand metal discharge at 4 kV results a current spike at the start of the discharge that is more than twice as high as the standard specifies! This is very repeatable. The above is just a sample of the research I have generated over the years. Seems like IEC 61000-4-2 needs an urgent overhaul as I believe engineers get a false sense of security that passing the test means reliable field performance, not even close! Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Interesting thoughts on ESD and systems
Hi All, I have a few thoughts I would like to share with you on ESD that have cons outbid my research into the field in recent years. 1. A 2kV air discharge can be much more likely to cause equipment malfunction than any other discharge of any voltage. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Breakdown of barriers in power supplies
Back in 2015, in my paper at the Institute of Physics in Southampton, England, I showed how 800 Volt ESD or EFT events can break over a 1500 VRMS (~2100 V peak) barrier in a power supply involving ringing in the EMC power line filter. This would be a low energy discharge, however it may degrade the barrier over time as 800 Volt EFT events on the power line are very common. Even a single small spark can trigger a large one and cause a safety issue, a single event! I think there is a safety problem here that is a disaster waiting to happen. Thoughts! Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Can anyone tell me what this symbol means?
Colleagues, I came across the eyelash-like symbol above the MOSFET in the image below, and I am at a loss for what it represents. My searches of schematic symbol databases has come up dry as well. Anyone know what this means?  Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] USB Type C requirements for the EU
Hi, I believe the legislation says that the “without any cables” provision will go into effect only after 2 events are completed: * 28 December 2026: EU Commission must submit a report to the EU Parliament and the EU Council assessing the impacts if charging cables were required to be unbundled from products. (I imagine the Commission could submit this report earlier than this date. Any opinions?) * The Commission must also propose mandatory unbundling of charging cables if their assessment indicates a benefit for the environment and for consumer convenience. I think I found this wording inconspicuously placed in the October publication of the legislation. If these provisions were removed in Directive (EU) 2022/2380<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Feur-lex.europa.eu*2Feli*2Fdir*2F2022*2F2380=05*7C01*7Cted.eckert*40microsoft.com*7C520c1294eea2460f05a008db0dd2e3d9*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C638118972405759520*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C=Eyw6WKa9CH4L687s3NvMWRTXyTw59JMjb9dF6MaNE*2Fk*3D=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!UNGbWqqmSmX9zyvUqDlxh94rZsFG4eZivJiBjwrbUuQ3ut20IDXRlhqOeXKxmu-qUVq1zMAyK2uYmXyxb9-ZmQE$> please let the group know, and I will abandon what I’ve said in this email. Regards, Doug From: cgitt...@rochester.rr.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 8:13 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] USB Type C requirements for the EU CAUTION - EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click any links or open any attachments unless you trust the sender and know the content is safe. Hi Ted, Thanks for your response. Best Regards. Cecil - From: "Ted Eckert" <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Cc: Sent: Monday February 13 2023 12:09:17PM Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] USB Type C requirements for the EU Hi Cecil, The regulation states “the possibility to acquire radio equipment without any charging device and without cables”. It isn’t an issue of what would technically work. It’s what the European Parliament wants. The device must have a USB connector, and the customer must have the option of purchasing the device without a power supply or cable. Best regards, Ted Eckert Microsoft The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: cgitt...@rochester.rr.com<mailto:cgitt...@rochester.rr.com> mailto:cgitt...@rochester.rr.com>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2023 6:59 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] USB Type C requirements for the EU Hi Ted, Thank you very much for your response. Ear buds come with a charge case that is USB C. Is that OK? And if so, why can’t a USB C cable to magnet pins work? As long as a standard USB C charger works, isn’t that the intent? Best Regards. Cecil - From: "Ted Eckert" <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Cc: Sent: Monday February 13 2023 8:57:19AM Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] USB Type C requirements for the EU Hi Cecil, The device must have a USB connector for charging. You must provide the customer the option of buying the product without either an external power supply or charging cable. The intent of the regulation is that consumers should be able to buy new devices that can be charged with their existing USB power supplies and cables. Best regards, Ted Eckert Microsoft The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: cgitt...@rochester.rr.com<mailto:cgitt...@rochester.rr.com> mailto:cgitt...@rochester.rr.com>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2023 5:50 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] USB Type C requirements for the EU You don't often get email from cgitt...@rochester.rr.com<mailto:cgitt...@rochester.rr.com>. Learn why this is important<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification__;!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!UNGbWqqmSmX9zyvUqDlxh94rZsFG4eZivJiBjwrbUuQ3ut20IDXRlhqOeXKxmu-qUVq1zMAyK2uYmXyxdT5Q4lA$> Hi Charlie, Thank you very much for your response. Does this mean a USB Type C connector has to be on the device or can a cable that has USB C with let’s say a magnetic connector on the device end be used? Thanks! Best Regards Cecil - From: "Charlie Blackham&quo
Re: [PSES] Non-NRTL Field Inspection Service Provider in the Michigan / Midwest Region
Hi All, In Canada, the list of accredited inspection bodies can be found on the Standards Council of Canada website: https://www.scc.ca/en/accreditation/programs/inspection-bodies/directory Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On Feb 24, 2023, at 14:26, emcl...@gmail.com wrote: > > Thanks for your help Richard. I have an excellent contact at MET and I've > referred her to this friend. This is good info. > > It's been many years (decades) since I've dealt with the differences in > provincial code requirements, but I'm aware of the fact that's a pitfall to > watch out for. > > Carl > > > -- Original Message -- > From "Richard Nute" mailto:ri...@ieee.org>> > To EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org <mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org> > Date 2/22/2023 6:33:12 PM > Subject Re: [PSES] Non-NRTL Field Inspection Service Provider in the Michigan > / Midwest Region > >> >> Hi Carl: >> >> I’m not able to identify candidate FEBs as you requested. Most NRTLs, small >> to large, also are FEBs. I only found one accredited FEB who wasn’t an >> NRTL, SGS in Switzerland (a very big company). >> >> Here is a good and complete (straight-forward) explanation of the field >> inspection service in the USA and Canada: >> >> https://metlabs.com/services/on-site-field-testing-and-evaluation/field-inspection-frequently-asked-questions/ >> >> Here is one of the field evaluation body, FEB, accreditation schemes: >> >> https://www.iasonline.org/services/field-evaluation-bodies/ >> >> The FEB must be acceptable to the AHJ in the region where the equipment is >> to be installed. >> >> Rich >> >> >> From: emcl...@gmail.com <mailto:emcl...@gmail.com> > <mailto:emcl...@gmail.com>> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 2:16 PM >> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >> Subject: [PSES] Non-NRTL Field Inspection Service Provider in the Michigan / >> Midwest Region >> >> A friend asked me if I could refer him to a field inspection service >> provider for computer/ITE products intended for use within factory >> environments. I'm aware that the major NRTLs offer this service apart from >> their NRTL accreditation, so I'm asking for other referrals for smaller >> service providers. >> >> The scope is for USA and Canadian installations and this company would like >> that source to provide engineering review of the product in question in >> advance of the inspection, as well as the inspection itself and tag as >> needed. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Carl > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://lis
Re: [PSES] [SI-LIST] Re: Interesting material
What you mentioned about ESD is true. Much better to design for it than to try and fix the design later. Unfortunately, the later approach is what is normally done. ESD debugging should not be done in an ESD test area as the energy goes everywhere and one has no control. My preferred method of debugging is to inject ESD like noise locally in a system to determine the sensitive part of the circuit. I have designed several ways of doing this. No guesswork just results! Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: Lyndell Lee Asbenson Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 8:24:54 PM To: doug emcesd.com ; Morales, Aldo W ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG ; si-l...@freelists.org Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Interesting material Thanks Doug, the stories I have of ESD and the problems it caused . What Intel learned is that you have to design for ESD up front, not reactivate, after the design. The people doing Gallian Arsnide never got this memo. I had an IMS tester that had an MTBF of 128hr (crapy) all because the pin electronics were always under repair. Lyndell Get Outlook for Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aka.ms_AAb9ysg=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=gp9yh_gKNspS1j99QLN1Y_x5vHuVpYACneLagjjCssE=ft6BhOhaJImgfaZzNLr4Fj4-0hsENPAafJrq6mA5agw=> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Interesting material
Thanks, Aldo. Separately, effects on inanimate objects like ESD materials and transmission lines seem generally sensitive to relative humidity whereas humans, and likely other mammals, are sensitive to absolute humidity measured as dew point temperature. As temperature is not important up to 120?F, or more, if the dew point temperature is below freezing. Once I realized this some time ago and applied it to myself, I have no problem running for an hour or two at 115?F in the Nevada desert passing signs that say "Danger! Do not enter here in the summer!" Most young athletes are not able to do this, yet I will be 76 in a few weeks. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: Morales, Aldo W Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 11:04:46 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG ; si-l...@freelists.org ; doug emcesd.com Subject: Re: Interesting material Hello Colleagues: Please check this paper on humidity and temperature that we published long time ago Modeling Relative Humidity and Temperature Effects on Scattering Parameters in Transmission Lines * S. Agili, A. Morales, +1 author M. Resso *Published 27 September 2012 * * IEEE Transactions on Components, Packaging and Manufacturing Technology Stay safe and healthy, Aldo _ Aldo W. Morales, Ph.D. IEEE Senior Member https://psu.zoom.us/my/aldo.morales<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__psu.zoom.us_my_aldo.morales=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=aynX0Gw2OtbjQBb1JC70a3wcAfL52N40OUvueoQXwSc=guUCHDJA3FXUwenYW8EVdwoDPG257d3ge6IN4O7MJnc=> IEEE Consumer Electronics Society 15-16 Distinguished Lecturer Co-Director, Center of Excellence in Signal Integrity <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.hbg.psu.edu_csi=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=aynX0Gw2OtbjQBb1JC70a3wcAfL52N40OUvueoQXwSc=8C4JfrScDvZJZtByrr-F-582dIyb1olvvo81_YD-N9g=>https://harrisburg.psu.edu/center-for-signal-integrity<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__harrisburg.psu.edu_center-2Dfor-2Dsignal-2Dintegrity=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=aynX0Gw2OtbjQBb1JC70a3wcAfL52N40OUvueoQXwSc=5S3BnF4EdNeIu4rh0AlVWdDXFKWv2h8S2-Ma7ILasqc=> Co-PI NSF STEM grant https://harrisburg.psu.edu/scholarships/nsf-stem-scholarship-program<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__harrisburg.psu.edu_scholarships_nsf-2Dstem-2Dscholarship-2Dprogram=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=aynX0Gw2OtbjQBb1JC70a3wcAfL52N40OUvueoQXwSc=80NaIeNKsLaeSAdPhDLVxnvx8lrkTY5qMecpF6KNpsY=> Professor of Electrical Engineering Penn State Harrisburg 777 West Harrisburg Pike Middletown, PA 17057 U.S.A. Phone: (717)-948-6379 Fax: (717)-948-6352 From: si-list-bou...@freelists.org on behalf of doug emcesd.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 1:59 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG ; si-l...@freelists.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Interesting material Here is a better video where I limit the applied voltage to a reasonable operating voltage to just see the humidity effect. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dropbox.com%2Fs%2Ft1udll2dqidl8o7%2FVID_20230217_205517.mp4%3Fdl%25C3%25BF=05%7C01%7Cawm2%40psu.edu%7C8ea380ac0b684730975a08db117deaa4%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C638123004733550809%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=kntcFEHEQAOuMw298OJ6EjgChUUxWIdHjOlUfAdwkvc%3D=0<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.dropbox.com-252Fs-252Ft1udll2dqidl8o7-252FVID-5F20230217-5F205517.mp4-253Fdl-2525C3-2525BF-26data-3D05-257C01-257Cawm2-2540psu.edu-257C8ea380ac0b684730975a08db117deaa4-257C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e-257C0-257C0-257C638123004733550809-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C3000-257C-257C-257C-26sdata-3DkntcFEHEQAOuMw298OJ6EjgChUUxWIdHjOlUfAdwkvc-253D-26reserved-3D0=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=aynX0Gw2OtbjQBb1JC70a3wcAfL52N40OUvueoQXwSc=X0wa5AacOm9bdM40t5AEi0adIj7feEplqh6dvqyqdiU=> Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdsmith.org%2F=05%7C01%7Cawm2%40psu.edu%7C8ea380ac0b684730975a08db117deaa4%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C638123004733550809%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=5w%2Fj2D6E
Re: [PSES] Interesting material
Here is a better video where I limit the applied voltage to a reasonable operating voltage to just see the humidity effect. https://www.dropbox.com/s/t1udll2dqidl8o7/VID_20230217_205517.mp4?dl=0 Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: doug emcesd.com Sent: Friday, February 17, 2023 10:54:10 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG ; si-l...@freelists.org Subject: Interesting material Hi All, I was testing a new material for a different purpose and accidentally found that it was very sensitive to humidity/moisture. Might make a good humidity alarm for an industrial process or other application. What do you think? Here is a short video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1bhp7mn2l4e24n0/VID_20230209_155921.mp4?dl=0 Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Interesting material
Hi All, I was testing a new material for a different purpose and accidentally found that it was very sensitive to humidity/moisture. Might make a good humidity alarm for an industrial process or other application. What do you think? Here is a short video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1bhp7mn2l4e24n0/VID_20230209_155921.mp4?dl=0 Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and pacemakers
Hi Dan, I saw this come across my inbox this morning and immediately thought about the conversation on this list that you started in 2022. I thought you might be interested in the lead article on the pacemaker study. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "EMC Standards" > Subject: EMC Aware - Issue 3 now available! > Date: February 17, 2023 at 09:00:15 EST > To: "Doug" > Reply-To: i...@emcstandards.co.uk > > Web Version <https://email.hughesmedia.co.uk/t/r-e-tjkijijd-okykjdliyy-r/> > <https://reouk.forwardtomyfriend.com/r-okykjdliyy-8979B00F-tjkijijd-l-y> > > Forward > <https://reouk.forwardtomyfriend.com/r-okykjdliyy-8979B00F-tjkijijd-l-j> > <https://email.hughesmedia.co.uk/t/r-l-tjkijijd-okykjdliyy-i/> > Recent EMC News from EMC Standards > > What is happening the world of EMC Standards? Details of our new resources, > events and products appear below as they are released. > EMC Aware - Issue 3 now available! > <https://email.hughesmedia.co.uk/t/r-l-tjkijijd-okykjdliyy-d/> > 17 February, 2023 > > > The latest issue of EMC Aware magazine is availble now! > > Find out about > > Suppressing Radio Frequency Noise With Ferrite Cores > EMC: Designing for Compliance > Layout Optimisation And Package Enhancements To Minimise Switch Node Ringing > And Associated Radiated EMI In A DC/DC Buck Converter > And much more! Please visit www.emcaware.com > <https://email.hughesmedia.co.uk/t/r-l-tjkijijd-okykjdliyy-h/> to download > your free copy! > > Issue 4, will be realeased in time for the upcoming EMC and CI 2023 > <https://email.hughesmedia.co.uk/t/r-l-tjkijijd-okykjdliyy-k/> event at > Newbury Racecourse in May, if you would like to advertise in the EMC and CI > 2023, show edition, which will be printed and distributed at the event please > email i...@emcstandards.co.uk <mailto:i...@emcstandards.co.uk> > Training Workshops > > At the upcoming EMC and CI 2023 exhibition, World renowned EMC expert, Keith > Armstrong, of Cherry Clough Consultants will be provided a days worth of > training workshops on the 17th May and in addition, the associates of Cherry > Clough Consultants will be providing 6 further sessions and accompanying > notes. > > Places are limited, so please book now > <https://email.hughesmedia.co.uk/t/r-l-tjkijijd-okykjdliyy-u/> to ensure you > reserve your place! > > Unsubscribe <https://email.hughesmedia.co.uk/t/r-u-tjkijijd-okykjdliyy-t/> > > EMC Standards > Emstrey House North, Shrewsbury Business Park, > Shrewsbury, UK, SY2 6LG > www.emcstandards.co.uk > <https://email.hughesmedia.co.uk/t/r-l-tjkijijd-okykjdliyy-o/> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] IC package parasitics
Hi All, Here is a paper I wrote some time ago covering a few techniques I use to see the effect of package parasitics on the operation on an IC in real-time. I have solved problems this way that clients struggled with for months and it took me only minutes to understand what was happening and come up with a fix. https://emcesd.com/pdf/imaps07.pdf Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Noise troubleshooting technique
Occasionally when troubleshooting a board, I suspect there is an issue with ground potentials between an ICs pins causing either signal corruption or even latch up of the device. For simpler boards where this is possible, here is a link, below, to one technique that I use. Before a layout can be fixed, this could also be used as a temporary rework, especially if all the ground pin connections are not required. https://emcesd.com/tt2011/tt050411.htm Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] LED RF sensitivity test
Hi All, I recently had looked at a case where a piece of equipment being tested for conducted RF immunity has some of its LEDs lit by the RF when the equipment was unpowered, which caused a test failure as the LEDs indicated a safety condition. The equipment had no power switch, when its function was needed, power was applied from another device. It means there is also a possibility of LEDs lighting in a powered-up device, not because the electronics are affected, but by the LEDs themselves lighting. Should we be testing RF immunity on unpowered devices? This perked my interest and I have designed a small (2x3 inch board) for testing frequency response and sensitivity of LEDs to RF signals to 500 MHz. Just from the prototype, I see that LEDs vary quite a bit in frequency, some going to 500 MHz and beyond. I have also noted some conditions that affect the RF response, so I have built into my design a feature that makes the LED response independent of the characteristics of the amplifier furnishing the RF signal. The board schematic looks very simple, just five "components," but to implement the schematic takes about 15 real components to work properly.. This design and the problem LEDs can cause will be included in my class the third week of February (class is full of examples of strange problems in equipment and their solution). I will also host a web meeting next week, Thursday 9 am Pacific time, for those interested in this board design. Contact me privately if you are interested. The session is not free as I have invested a fair amount of time in the board design and construction which I will share during the meeting. Not sure yet what the fee might be, interested in input on this, but it will not be expensive. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D93198.C7631610] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Exclusion from the RED?
Colleagues, I was discussing the application of the RED with someone this week, and this question came up: If a product has WiFi or Bluetooth transceivers populated on a board, but they are disabled via software, is that sufficient to exclude the product from the RED, or would the transceiver hardware need to be removed from the product? If the software switch was used, the end user would not be able to enable the transceivers. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] LED RF immunity
Hi All, I recently worked on a case where a conducted immunity RF test caused an unpowered circuit's LEDs to light up causing a failure. It turns out that LEDs can work well enough at much higher frequencies than one would expect. In addition to that, in the process of lighting up, a lot of harmonics are generated up to hundreds of MHz, at least. In fact, any non-linear element connected to a system cable will generate harmonics of an incoming RF signal, possibly causing radio interference. I have even seen corroded connections of wires do this and cause problems. In the case of the LEDs, several tens of mA of RF current was available from the test and that interacted with resonances on the board. So, I am designing a board to evaluate LED RF sensitivity in terms of frequency response and amplitude of current. Should have it built soon. Seems like there is a need for such a device to allow designers to select the best part from suppliers. The board will include a current monitor with frequency response from DC to at least 500 MHz and will also gauge the possibility of EMI generated by the LED under test. The board, its design, and the background of the issue will be added to my class in the third week of February. Eventually I will publish this later on, possibly at DesignCon 2024 or another venue in 2024. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D92BEE.6120F160] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] [Spam] Re: [PSES] "how to fish" - UKCA extension legislation.
For thiose interested in watching the debate in the House of Lords, you can watch a recording here: https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/4325a224-3bdd-4b1b-a707-dbb82b7c8f8c?in=17:20:16 Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On Dec 15, 2022, at 10:33, Rick Linford > <1e1aaf8064ca-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-the-ukca-marking > <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.uk%2Fguidance%2Fusing-the-ukca-marking=05%7C01%7Crlinford%40SonicWall.com%7Cb46ed46e0879416e542b08dade3d8a73%7C84fe6f401cbc473083288018b2af88bc%7C1%7C0%7C638066653161587789%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=YJA4f0VBahx3EDwBBKvHWNcNMjkC%2F1GbsS9R4k8PBzU%3D=0> > > > > > Rick > > > From: Douglas Nix <0bb8ff993b10-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > <mailto:0bb8ff993b10-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> > Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2022 9:34 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > Subject: Re: [PSES] [Spam] Re: [PSES] "how to fish" - UKCA extension > legislation. > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click > links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the > content is safe. > > > Hi Andrew and Rick, > > The next stage is a reading in the House of Lords on Dec. 13. Since the Torys > are in a majority government position in the UK, the chances of this SI not > passing debate in the House of Lords is probably close to zero. > Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear as if it will be possible to watch the > debate live, although I’m hunting to see if that might be possible. If it is > I will post to this thread. > > Mr. Doug Nix C.E.T. > +1 (519) 729 5704 > > d...@mac.com <mailto:d...@mac.com> > d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org> > —— > "Imaginary evils are incurable.” — Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach, Austrian writer > > > > > > > > On Dec 8, 2022, at 04:46, Andrew Wood > <170ccaf92990-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > <mailto:170ccaf92990-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> wrote: > > Apologies Rick > Just noticed that I have repeated your question. > Andy > > Regards, > > Andrew Wood > Compliance Manager – Hazardous Areas > > > <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ametek-land.com%2F=05%7C01%7Crlinford%40SonicWall.com%7C45f0dcab3da844924cdf08dad93a1ed8%7C84fe6f401cbc473083288018b2af88bc%7C1%7C1%7C638061140904156520%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=XI0wjks%2FoDJiKG6%2Fa2oFe1jrg6EanRRvx0DdPAo%2F2BE%3D=0> > > Direct: +44 (0) 1246 581592 > Address: AMETEK Land, Stubley Lane, Dronfield, Derbyshire. S18 1DJ England > E-mail: andrew.w...@ametek.com| <mailto:andrew.w...@ametek.com> Web: > www.ametek-land.com > <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ametek-land.com%2F=05%7C01%7Crlinford%40SonicWall.com%7C45f0dcab3da844924cdf08dad93a1ed8%7C84fe6f401cbc473083288018b2af88bc%7C1%7C1%7C638061140904156520%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=NxqV72p92wEpDwNuO%2B5Gy1a79F2YzAuLpL5zFop78%2BA%3D=0> > > > <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ametek-land.com%2Fcontactus%2Fkeepinguptodate=05%7C01%7Crlinford%40SonicWall.com%7C45f0dcab3da844924cdf08dad93a1ed8%7C84fe6f401cbc473083288018b2af88bc%7C1%7C1%7C638061140904156520%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=srUrEj7DNm%2Bn1vlnVFXharhLcxRjfqwIWlcRZ9RVpQ0%3D=0> > > From: Rick Linford <1e1aaf8064ca-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org > <mailto:1e1aaf8064ca-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> > Sent: 07 December 2022 23:07 > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > Subject: Re: [PSES] [Spam] Re: [PSES] "how to fish" - UKCA extension > legislation. > > ***NOTICE*** This came from an external source. Use caution when replying, > clicking links, or opening attachments. > Hi Doug, > > Great link, but sorry for my ignorance of UK governance. To be clear this was > a committee approval, it still needs to be approved by full House of Commons > and the House of Lords before it is law, is that correct? > > Does it require Prime Minister’s signature? > > @ Lauren Crane thanks for getting this started. The proverb about teaching a > man(person) to fish comes to mind
[PSES] data presentation on ESD simulators
Hi All, I have been hinting at my efforts to characterize ESD simulators and have generated a treasure trove of data on most modern ESD simulators for waveform and E-field emissions to 5 GHz. This data can save an engineer, company, or test lab a lot of effort during ESD testing. The data allows one to pick an ESD simulator based on the results you want or your criteria or to resolve differences between your internal testing and an external test lab. There is a huge difference between simulators and the data shows that even a subtle difference in the way the test person applies the ESD can make a large difference in the test outcome, none of which is addressed in IED61000-4-2. I think there may be a lot of "fixing" of ESD issues in equipment that is not necessary. All this is due to the loose/incomplete way IEC 61000-4-2 specifies the simulator calibration. If you are interested in the presentation, discussion, and a copy of the data, I am holding a web session next Wednesday, December 15th at 9 am Pacific Daylight Time, for several hours. Contact me for details. This is not a free presentation as I have expended significant personal resources to generate the data. I don't consider this presentation as training but a presentation of data and a mutual discussion of it to bring out the conclusions contained in the data that are not necessarily obvious. I think individual engineers responsible for a product as well as test labs would especially be interested. The data is not commercially available to my knowledge. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D908BE.5017DD50] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] static fields
Hi All, Did you know that just a static E-field can cause improper operation of some equipment like smoke detectors? No discharge necessary. Just "ES" without "D"! One of my E-field experiments set off a smoke detector in the next room, reliably, from 15+ feet away! You don't want to be near me in the building where my lab is located. I spend a lot of time performing research in my lab coming up with new ways to characterize equipment problems and solve them. Most of my knowledge (past college 50+ years ago) comes from my research. Generally, I find principles taught in books come with limitations that are not necessarily pointed out in the books but show up very clearly in my lab experiments. I have explored in the lab most of the principles I was ever taught. I have found that doing it in the lab is better than just reading about it in a book or hearing it in a class. I also do health experiments that have resulted in me at 75 living like a 35 year old. Those experiment have been very successful too! Conquered flus, colds, and sore throats 50 years ago, none since then, and no sunburn with no sun block needed for a whole day in the sun now. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D907E6.EE2C8D70] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] incorrect test failures
Hi All, Test failures (performance, compliance, or any other) just before product introduction are very expensive. It is not unusual to cost a company US$100,000 or more revenue per day of product delay. Given that... There is an issue with IEC61000-4-2 based ESD testing, and it is costing companies millions of $/year in incorrect failures on equipment that in fact was compliant!!! I have observed this for decades now but not much has been done about it. What we really need is a maximum di/dt specification anywhere on the waveform (I proposed this when I was on WG9 of TC77b almost 30 years ago) and an E-field emissions amplitude and de/dt specifications for ESD simulators. They are all over the map in their ability to fail equipment that is actually compliant! Given that, one's only recourse is to try and use a simulator that meets the "intent" not just the letter of the requirements. Along those lines, you might be interested in my latest Technical Tidbit article for November about data I have taken on most of the current simulators on the market using special measurement techniques (both equipment and technique of measurement). In the article I give an example of di/dt issues. Here is the link: https://emcesd.com/tt2022/tt111822.htm Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D90586.D740B940] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Latest Technical Tidbit
Hi All, I believe I sent this link at the beginning of the long holiday weekend here in the US. If you are like me, by Monday morning, the email was a few hundred emails down in the list and many missed it. The article talks about the poor repeatability of ESD testing results for IEC 61000-4-2 testing. Here is the link: https://emcesd.com/tt2022/tt111822.htm Separately, for the first time in my 50 years of running (starting in my late twenties) I will exceed 2500 miles of running in one year in December. Not technical but it shows one does not have to decline in one's seventies! This is about 5x what I used to run per year up to 3 years ago Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] New Technical Tidbit article
Hi All, I have started adding Technical Tidbit articles on my website again. This one is on the significantly different testing outcomes that result from the undocumented (not described in IEC 61000-4-2) differences in ESD simulators because of noise on the current waveforms and E-field emissions from the simulators. Here is the link: https://emcesd.com/tt2022/tt111822.htm You may also enjoy the other 300 articles and papers I have posted there at: https://emcesd.com Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Pending Regulatory Change to UKCA Program
Rich, et al, I've had the opposite experience. On a particular occasion, a field sales person was on the site of a notably abrasive customer. Initially, that customer was a little cagey saying "Can you see the difference, and what's wrong with yours?" Eventually, after playing the game for a time, that customer pointed out how the competitor's product had one more safety marking that ours did not. While I haven't seen this sort of behaviour very often, I have seen a similar attitude prevail for many years. Unfortunately, a few sales people, whom I know and call my friends, have sometimes complained about the lack of value that product certs bring to the table; then complain about delays in time-to-market, and the added cost of goods sold... And I have the evidence to prove that a safety redesign of an existing "low cost" product family with multiple models and configurations allowed us to further reduce the COGS by an additional 6% overall. So that argument does not hold water with me. It has always been my belief that product certs are not so much a hit to productivity and value, but they do open markets that would otherwise be closed. And this along with evidence of due diligence, and ultimately the safety of the end user are their true value. A singular focus on profitability in the short term is a disservice to everyone. -Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA doug...@gmail.com LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/> (UTC -06:00) Mountain Time (US-MDT) On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 12:39 PM Richard Nute wrote: > > > “It’s a fact the CE mark adds way more cost than the return on investment > of performance improvement.” > > > > Reminds me of a marketing manager saying to me that safety (and, I assume, > safety certification and EMC) do not generate sales. > > > > Rich > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > emc-p...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org > David Heald dhe...@gmail.com > -- > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] FW: Intertek message FYI: Important Update: Pending Regulatory Change to UKCA Program
Thanks John, As you can imagine mainstream media tends to give us a filtered view, with various unspoken motivations. This is the very reason I do not rely upon a single source. And of course, guidance provided on https://www.gov.uk should always be viewed in its official capacity. I appreciate your insider's perspective, -Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/> (UTC -06:00) Mountain Time (US-MDT) On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 9:58 AM wrote: > Doug & co > > > > I can only speak for myself and what I have seen & heard in the mainstream > broadcast media (don’t do Twitter, FB etc!). > > > > The majority viewpoint seems to be that it is far too late to do anything > in the short-medium term about re-joining the EU, even if there was another > referendum on the subject that said “Yes, Rejoin”. None of the main-stream > political parties are pushing for it *(at least those in England, but > there are very different views held by some parties in Wales, N. Ireland > and especially the SNP in Scotland!).* > > > > Thus I can’t see it happening “anytime soon”, if at all! > > > > FWIW: To state my personal perspective, I was very much in favour of the > UK joining in the first place many years ago because of my experiences of > the many “technical barriers to trade” which made exporting to the then > (IIRC!) Common Market countries really difficult due to all the differences > between them. Then, in the Referendum I was very much in favour of > Remaining in the EC & very disappointed in the (marginal!) result *(my > opinion of those who voted to leave was/still is fairly unprintable – > something about “cutting off your nose to spite your face”!)* > > > > John E Allen > > W. London, UK > > *From:* Doug Powell > *Sent:* 07 November 2022 16:15 > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] FW: Intertek message FYI: Important Update: Pending > Regulatory Change to UKCA Program > > > > I've been watching the latest UK news with interest. From my perspective > in the US news media, it seems with the financial, energy, and PM woes, > there is a small movement discussing how BREXIT may have been a mistake. > Possibly John Allen can elaborate about how the locals feel about this, Is > there any real possibility of reverting to EU membership, or not? > > > > thanks, -Doug > > > > > > Douglas E Powell > > Laporte, Colorado USA > > LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/> > > > > (UTC -06:00) Mountain Time (US-MDT) > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 8:53 AM Richard Georgerian < > richa...@mesanetworks.net> wrote: > > Greetings all, > > > > As a follow-up to John Allen’s email below – > > > > Has the UK submitted and/or passed any legislation for the UKCA labelling > easement until December 31, 2025? Otherwise, the UKCA labelling starts on > December 31, 2022. > > I went to the www.gov.uk website and there is no mention of the specific > legislation. Just the announcement that the UK *intends to submit* > legislation for the easement. > > > > Thank-you, > > > > …Richard Georgerian > > Compliance Engineer > > HID Global > > > > *From:* John E Allen <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 4, 2022 9:01 AM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* [PSES] FW: Intertek message FYI: Important Update: Pending > Regulatory Change to UKCA Program > > > > For anyone who has not seen this or something similar! > > > > John E Allen > > W.London, UK > > > > *From:* Intertek > *Sent:* 03 August 2022 12:58 > *To:* john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk > *Subject:* Important Update: Pending Regulatory Change to UKCA Program > > > > The UK Government has announced its intention to introduce new regulation > as a principle ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ > > > > > > [image: Intertek] > <http://links.intertek.mkt4245.com/els/v2/pwaLHKk2DmCr/WFpETTVWYjJqaDhRL3kwZmJzejB4VE05NlQwVlBlNUtvRGx0dDVOaWNGZ0RZYmtrdCtybytMRVJxb0UwWVhzRnBkaWZROWJwcnJiU1BjTWdxc0J4MDduTUxhQWx0R1k2d2c1TTNWR2ZSMFE9S0/b3grNmY2R3BIM2RhZ1VheDBwYlVydUt2VjRQV3piYUtiOHgvbTNvSGIyd3g0eVQrVEVMbEtJWElxS0V0U2lZNjZveVQzQTFUSjF3YjZnaWhyNDNLR2E5b0dZUFduUFgvZGhlQVZBLzM1YncxYVY1TE8zcU5EVitsbnRmMGNBMDBEUENMaE9QTmVudmhvM1Q1MXJrcmZQZkR1MkZtRXo2bU1wVVgrWTlIVFY0PQS2> > > [image: Total Quality. Assured.] > > > > > > *The UK is pending a regulatory change to their UKCA Program* > > > > > > The UK Government has announced its intenti
Re: [PSES] FW: Intertek message FYI: Important Update: Pending Regulatory Change to UKCA Program
I've been watching the latest UK news with interest. From my perspective in the US news media, it seems with the financial, energy, and PM woes, there is a small movement discussing how BREXIT may have been a mistake. Possibly John Allen can elaborate about how the locals feel about this, Is there any real possibility of reverting to EU membership, or not? thanks, -Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/> (UTC -06:00) Mountain Time (US-MDT) On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 8:53 AM Richard Georgerian wrote: > Greetings all, > > > > As a follow-up to John Allen’s email below – > > > > Has the UK submitted and/or passed any legislation for the UKCA labelling > easement until December 31, 2025? Otherwise, the UKCA labelling starts on > December 31, 2022. > > I went to the www.gov.uk website and there is no mention of the specific > legislation. Just the announcement that the UK *intends to submit* > legislation for the easement. > > > > Thank-you, > > > > …Richard Georgerian > > Compliance Engineer > > HID Global > > > > *From:* John E Allen <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 4, 2022 9:01 AM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* [PSES] FW: Intertek message FYI: Important Update: Pending > Regulatory Change to UKCA Program > > > > For anyone who has not seen this or something similar! > > > > John E Allen > > W.London, UK > > > > *From:* Intertek > *Sent:* 03 August 2022 12:58 > *To:* john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk > *Subject:* Important Update: Pending Regulatory Change to UKCA Program > > > > The UK Government has announced its intention to introduce new regulation > as a principle ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ > > > > > > [image: Intertek] > <http://links.intertek.mkt4245.com/els/v2/pwaLHKk2DmCr/WFpETTVWYjJqaDhRL3kwZmJzejB4VE05NlQwVlBlNUtvRGx0dDVOaWNGZ0RZYmtrdCtybytMRVJxb0UwWVhzRnBkaWZROWJwcnJiU1BjTWdxc0J4MDduTUxhQWx0R1k2d2c1TTNWR2ZSMFE9S0/b3grNmY2R3BIM2RhZ1VheDBwYlVydUt2VjRQV3piYUtiOHgvbTNvSGIyd3g0eVQrVEVMbEtJWElxS0V0U2lZNjZveVQzQTFUSjF3YjZnaWhyNDNLR2E5b0dZUFduUFgvZGhlQVZBLzM1YncxYVY1TE8zcU5EVitsbnRmMGNBMDBEUENMaE9QTmVudmhvM1Q1MXJrcmZQZkR1MkZtRXo2bU1wVVgrWTlIVFY0PQS2> > > [image: Total Quality. Assured.] > > > > > > *The UK is pending a regulatory change to their UKCA Program* > > > > > > The UK Government has announced its intention to introduce new regulation > as a principle so to reduce the costs involved for the > re-certification/re-testing of products for UKCA marking. This new > regulation, when introduced (no timelines given), and based on the summary > notice criteria, will effectively increase the acceptance of CE marking of > products as a means of meeting UKCA marking requirements. > > > > > > > > > > *Until this new regulation is introduced, the current framework, timelines > and conformity assessment process for UKCA marking remains, in that from 01 > January 2023, CE marking will no longer be accepted when placing product > onto the Great Britain Market.* > > > > > > > > > > The full details of the UK Government announcement can be found here > <http://links.intertek.mkt4245.com/els/v2/K6~VJWdr~zQZ/WFpETTVWYjJqaDhRL3kwZmJzejB4VE05NlQwVlBlNUtvRGx0dDVOaWNGZ0RZYmtrdCtybytMRVJxb0UwWVhzRnBkaWZROWJwcnJiU1BjTWdxc0J4MDduTUxhQWx0R1k2d2c1TTNWR2ZSMFE9S0/>. > Please refer to the 22 June update. > > > > > > *READ THE UPDATE* > <http://links.intertek.mkt4245.com/els/v2/_k~8BzWqA_QR/WFpETTVWYjJqaDhRL3kwZmJzejB4VE05NlQwVlBlNUtvRGx0dDVOaWNGZ0RZYmtrdCtybytMRVJxb0UwWVhzRnBkaWZROWJwcnJiU1BjTWdxc0J4MDduTUxhQWx0R1k2d2c1TTNWR2ZSMFE9S0/> > > > > > > > > > > > > *On Introduction of The New Regulation* > > > > > > In summary, product conformity assessment will see the following changes: > > > >- Completed conformity assessment activities carried out on product >under EU requirements (including existing testing, certification, and >contractual arrangements relating to the quality control or auditing of >existing certificates) undertaken by non-UK conformity assessment bodies >(EU Notified Bodies accredited by their national accreditation body) for CE >certification before 1 January 2023 to be used by manufacturers to declare >existing product types as compliant with UKCA. >- Products must still bear UKCA marking and will need to undergo >conformity assessment with a UK Approved Body at the expiry of the >certificate or after 5 years (31 December 2027), whichever is sooner.
[PSES] job openings (Kansas City and Raleigh NC area)
Hi All, Garmin has an opportunity for a Sr. Compliance Engineer with 5 years' experience. At our HQ in the Kansas City suburbs, and at our North Carolina campus, we have a product regulatory compliance position that will embed you with some product development teams. You will lead the way to on-time approvals using our world-class compliance process. More details at https://careers.garmin.com/careers-home/jobs/9473?lang=en-us You've never been to Kansas City? Check out www.kc.org/work<http://www.kc.org/work> Best regards, Doug CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Surge Protection Device required by NEC
>From the 2020 Edition, emphasis is mine. "670.6 Surge Protection. Industrial machinery with safety interlock control devices *not effectively protected from voltage surges on the incoming supply circuit* shall have surge protection installed." It does not say where this protection needs to be applied, so I assume it can be within the machine or somewhere in machine supply. Also, does the product you are inquiring about fall under the definition of *Industrial Machinery*, NFPA 79? -Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA doug...@gmail.com LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/> (UTC -06:00) Mountain Time (US-MDT) On Tue, Nov 1, 2022 at 11:55 AM Brian Kunde wrote: > It just came to my attention that section 670.6 of the US National > Electric Code 2017 requires a listed Surge Protection Device (SPD) to be on > any Industrial Machine that has an Interlock, or I assume any kind of > safety function. Is this true? The only information I can find on the > internet is from the companies that make and sell the SPDs which can often > be very one sided. Is there more to this story that I am missing? > > Does the Surge Protection have to be listed? Are there specifications for > the SPD? Is there a Surge Immunity Test that be used to validate and > verify whether an additional SPD is required or not? > > Thanks, > The Other Brian > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > emc-p...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org > David Heald dhe...@gmail.com > -- > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Surprising data on most commercial ESD smulators
Hi All, I have measured data on most ESD simulators on the market, characterized for waveform purity and E-field emissions at a considerable investment in personal time and resources. The data is quite surprising and is similar to, but with more data than the work I did in the 1990s with standards bodies such as ANSI, IEC TC77b WG9 (IEC61000-4-2). The data reveals not only surprising results on the simulators but insight into the nature of ESD itself and why testing results can be difficult to reproduce. ( I have been working on ESD for about 40 years now both in standards bodies and solving problems.) If one wanted, the data shows how to pick a simulator more likely to pass or fail a product, whichever you want or how to resolve a disagreement between a commercial lab and a company's internal lab results. I plan to organize the data into a presentation which will include over 150 scope plots and other data on contact and air discharge and ESD characteristics. If you think you might be interested in this data/presentation, get in touch with me separately and we can work out logistics. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D8D0E4.387EBAE0] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] EMP on the cheap
Hi Everyone, Lately I have been working on a desktop "EMP" generator on the cheap for testing circuits and equipment without spending a lot of money. One of the challenges is characterizing and calibrating it without having a suitable current probe. I designed a simple, self calibrating current divider that is easy to build and gives a reduction of 4X per section (any factor is possible using multiple sections and changing the design of the section). The design matches resistive and reactive contributions to the attenuation ratio (extremely simple to do) to give it a nice constant attenuation ratio from DC to higher frequencies. I will cover the design of the attenuator in an upcoming Technical Tidbit on my website www.dsmith.org<http://www.dsmith.org> . My current probe is a F-65 from Fischer Custom Communications. I like that probe as it has excellent E-field rejection. I have seen some others that do not have good E-field rejection and would not work in this application as there are high E-fields involved. Separately, I am going to cover the design of the overall device and current divider as well as demonstrate it in a segment I am calling "The Morning After" to be given on the Friday morning after my regular three-day measurement and design troubleshooting seminar (next two are in October). Right now, my generator is capable of 5,000+ Amperes (3 MHz damped sinewave but I can make other waveforms) with a 45,000 Volt open circuit output. That is like ESD di/dt but with orders of magnitude more energy. So far I have not spent any money yet! Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D8BD44.4B64C270] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] 2022 Blue Guide has been published
Hi All, Is the 20202 Blue Guide intended to supersede the 2016 version immediately? I understand it's a guidance document, without legal force. I see nothing within its pages about going into effect x days after publication in the OJ, etc., so I assume it's meant for immediate use by Member States, MSAs and the rest of us. Thanks, Doug From: lauren.cr...@lamresearch.com Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2022 8:48 AM To: Kealey, Doug ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: 2022 Blue Guide has been published CAUTION - EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click any links or open any attachments unless you trust the sender and know the content is safe. Thanks very much, Doug. The guide is certainly looking more formal this edition. Best Regards, -Lauren From: Kealey, Doug <1230523daaa3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:1230523daaa3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2022 6:25 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] 2022 Blue Guide has been published External Email: Do NOT reply, click on links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. If you believe this email may be unsafe, please click on the "Report Phishing" button on the top right of Outlook. Hi All, The 2022 Blue Guide can be downloaded at https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A52022XC0629%2804%29=1657056593355<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Feur-lex.europa.eu*2Flegal-content*2FEN*2FTXT*2F*3Furi*3DCELEX*253A52022XC0629*252804*2529*26qid*3D1657056593355=05*7C01*7Clauren.crane*40lamresearch.com*7C234757962dd94dd554e708da5edd90da*7C918079dbc9024e29b22c9764410d0375*7C0*7C0*7C637927978924123447*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C=74hwvq*2F6mhF7p9zccyN4niXxDf*2BFgf3DPNZK8b5HhX8*3D=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!QsdbbdOghYDNOHiIDCKJCOmigR0AW0OGUePju5MpeXd2MuNKZu8Cb0Nznp8LC0kbHkFTyKStRuQBY_fUbgIEFMKFGWze$> (originally was going to be called the 2020 Blue Guide) Best regards, Doug CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Fwww.ieee-pses.org*2Femc-pstc.html=05*7C01*7Clauren.crane*40lamresearch.com*7C234757962dd94dd554e708da5edd90da*7C918079dbc9024e29b22c9764410d0375*7C0*7C0*7C637927978924123447*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C=lF0EFmOX*2BShPro*2Bkq2xWAcH1*2FcfDHbEMh1u5vbrD4r4*3D=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!QsdbbdOghYDNOHiIDCKJCOmigR0AW0OGUePju5MpeXd2MuNKZu8Cb0Nznp8LC0kbHkFTyKStRuQBY_fUbgIEFONU-BRU$> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Fwww.ieee-pses.org*2F=05*7C01*7Clauren.crane*40lamresearch.com*7C234757962dd94dd554e708da5edd90da*7C918079dbc9024e29b22c9764410d0375*7C0*7C0*7C637927978924123447*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C=yze*2BURAkCLN795Z8BEadseP9m5nIVbvP2ZMicMNESQs*3D=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!QsdbbdOghYDNOHiIDCKJCOmigR0AW0OGUePju5MpeXd2MuNKZu8Cb0Nznp8LC0kbHkFTyKStRuQBY_fUbgIEFGWPSOP7$> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Fwww.ieee-pses.org*2Flist.html=05*7C01*7Clauren.crane*40lamresearch.com*7C234757962dd94dd554e708da5edd90da*7C918079dbc9024e29b22c9764410d0375*7C0*7C0*7C637927978924123447*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C=sfoIDgTu5zp50SQFfbTtaQujT90JKuAD2sIqJ8Y9o9Q*3D=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!QsdbbdOghYDNOHiIDCKJCOmigR0AW0OGUePju5MpeXd2MuNKZu8Cb0Nznp8LC0kbHkFTyKStRuQBY_fUbgIEFFinN2AB$> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam02.safelinks.protection.outloo
[PSES] 2022 Blue Guide has been published
Hi All, The 2022 Blue Guide can be downloaded at https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A52022XC0629%2804%29=1657056593355 (originally was going to be called the 2020 Blue Guide) Best regards, Doug CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] EMC regs in by US state!
Hi Manny and the group, The test I am thinking of has a lot more average power. In a day or two I will post the state and some parameters of the test. The test I was talking about in my email was just something I was working on. This is a required standard state specified test. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: Manny Barron Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2022 17:52 To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC regs in by US state! Doug, I haven't attended any of your presentations or seminars, or looked at your website recently. But I did remember one of your postings back in Aug 2021. Here's what you said, plus my comment (plus many others commented as well). 8/19/21 DOUG I am currently working on a new video using my home built EMP generator. Nothing like a 1000 Ampere, 15 kV high voltage pulse to spice up the day! I am also working on a Marx generator to get extremely high voltage pulses as well. If you don’t hear anymore from me, I may have been vaporized. 8/19/21 MY COMMENT Uh, let's see ... 1,000 A x 15,000 V = 15,000,000 W. Not sure about the gain or directivity but that's alot of power! Hopefully it's just a pulse or two in the microsecond range. And hope you're in the desert. Don't know what state you're referring to, but my guess is that this is the device you demonstrated. Manny Barron On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 3:24 PM doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=OEVv69ChndSTsxde30O4SSD_4Hs_yrtpHR5sNHpMLo8=TdAHhvuLXvm0fCvtvMIYFbwriaY6gGNR31rYx-75TLw=> mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote: Hi All, Did you know there is one US state that has immunity regulations applicable to ESD (it is not an ESD test itself)? It is a state very concerned with extreme equipment reliability and your equipment has to pass this test if you want to sell to customers in a specific industry in that state. Which one? It is the most intense immunity test I have seen. I was demonstrating the test during a presentation to 70 engineers in Fullerton, CA last week. I was one of several speakers. All except me were recorded. Shortly into my demonstrations, I performed the test using a chair as a target for demo purposes. From 15-20 feet away, the demonstration took out the camera and my presentation was not recorded from that point! If you want to see how good a design is, this is a great test. If you have attended one of my presentations/seminars, please do not post. I want to see how well known the state with an EMC rules making organization is. This is typical of the many kinds of unusual material I teach. Doug [cid:180b09526b34ce8e91] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc-2Dpstc.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=OEVv69ChndSTsxde30O4SSD_4Hs_yrtpHR5sNHpMLo8=awqzDiW_fXSvKHfl-3MjTGcREHsCCzw7o-8mc6x4UZY=> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc.ieee.org_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=OEVv69ChndSTsxde30O4SSD_4Hs_yrtpHR5sNHpMLo8=c049Gh0Jpla3CrdicVJzikVOIfBm8u4Zo7NyMCNxnfQ=> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=OEVv69ChndSTsxde30O4SSD_4Hs_yrtpHR5sNHpMLo8=U5yTEYBJ-EBFU6dsEm_l063yhQHHWNE4v0HOv0y1HvY=> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_list.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=OEVv69ChndSTsxde30O4SSD_4Hs_yrtpHR5sNHpMLo8=hxyPvNNtwYyoFXNSIeRaAE6KHJqetnMb5KyfCtj3FGo=> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_listrules.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=OEVv69ChndSTsxde30O4SSD_4Hs_yrtpHR5sNHpMLo8=-_IAId4c5UnFUDrw5Lkm6QseF2o7SYs4pGZDm4NoNiw=> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org<mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell mca
[PSES] EMC regs in by US state!
Hi All, Did you know there is one US state that has immunity regulations applicable to ESD (it is not an ESD test itself)? It is a state very concerned with extreme equipment reliability and your equipment has to pass this test if you want to sell to customers in a specific industry in that state. Which one? It is the most intense immunity test I have seen. I was demonstrating the test during a presentation to 70 engineers in Fullerton, CA last week. I was one of several speakers. All except me were recorded. Shortly into my demonstrations, I performed the test using a chair as a target for demo purposes. From 15-20 feet away, the demonstration took out the camera and my presentation was not recorded from that point! If you want to see how good a design is, this is a great test. If you have attended one of my presentations/seminars, please do not post. I want to see how well known the state with an EMC rules making organization is. This is typical of the many kinds of unusual material I teach. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D86481.66684D60] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] GPSR date for compliance
That is helpful, Steli. Thank you. Good to hear from you. Would anyone like to offer a prediction of when GPSR is likely appear in the OJ? Maybe Q2 2022? Q3? Q4? Also, there is the follow-on question of whether additional quantities of a specific product model that is compliant with GPSD (but not fully compliant with GPSR) will be allowed to be sold & delivered to EU consumers after the "20 days + 6 months" period mentioned by Steli. Article 46 in the June 30, 2021 GPSR proposal document cited by Steli appears to answer this question: Article 46 Transitional provisions Member States shall not impede the making available on the market of products covered by Directive 2001/95/EC which are in conformity with that Directive and which were placed on the market before [insert date - date of application of this Regulation]. Is it a regulation that uses the "placed on the market" definition in sec. 2.3 of the 2016 Blue Guide? I only ask because "20 days + 6 months" seems like a pretty short transition. Thanks, Doug From: Ruth Shapira Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 6:49 PM To: Kealey, Doug ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: GPSR date for compliance CAUTION - EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click any links or open any attachments unless you trust the sender and know the content is safe. Hi Doug, Article 47 of the EU document "REGULATION OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL on general product safety, amending Regulation (EU) No 1025/2012 of the European Parliament and of the Council, and repealing Council Directive 87/357/EEC and Directive 2001/95/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council" Entry into force and application, specify: This Regulation shall enter into force on the twentieth day following that of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union. It shall apply from [6 months after the entry into force of this Regulation]. Until today, the document (that do not have yet a final designation number), was NOT published in the OJ of EU. The closure of the feadback period for the proposal was October 4, 2021. The final adopted document is not published yet. Need to wait until will be published in the OJ of EU. The date of enter into force will be 20 days after this publication and the Regulation shall apply after 6 month after the date of entry into force. I hope that the above help. Best Regards and Be Safe, Steli Steli Loznen, M.Sc., SM-IEEE VP for Technical Activities and Member of BoG IEEE-PSES Convener IEC 62A/MT29+MT 62354 17-3 Shaul HaMelech Blvd. Tel Aviv 6436719 Israel Tel:+972-3-6912668 Fax:+972-3-6913988 Mobile:+972-54-4818816 e-mail: sloz...@ieee.org<mailto:sloz...@ieee.org> From: Kealey, Doug <1230523daaa3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:1230523daaa3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 9:56 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] GPSR date for compliance Hi All, Has anyone found an official webpage or document that has the date when GPSR is expected to be enforceable? I thought that the EU Commission would either (i.) have a target enforcement date or a target publication date or predicted OJ date on its page for the GPSD Review<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/12466-General-Product-Safety-Directive-review_en__;!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!HTXs5ABRg1c3e3XfbEzMdWHeObAqq68ptS6MdQXQ2nu5ddsQ55_1KLC4mF6eC4SEJw$> or (ii.) have a dedicated page for GPSR, which I have not found. Possibly I have overlooked something. Having read that the new regulation will have direct effect with a six-month transition period, which is quite short, my view is that manufacturers, consultants and many people in our field need to know the projected timeline as early as possible. Months ago I pasted the info about the 6 month transition into my notes without proper attribution, and I'm not certain what "direct effect" really means, but it doesn't sound very accommodating, does it? Best regards, Doug CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http
[PSES] GPSR date for compliance
Hi All, Has anyone found an official webpage or document that has the date when GPSR is expected to be enforceable? I thought that the EU Commission would either (i.) have a target enforcement date or a target publication date or predicted OJ date on its page for the GPSD Review<https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/12466-General-Product-Safety-Directive-review_en> or (ii.) have a dedicated page for GPSR, which I have not found. Possibly I have overlooked something. Having read that the new regulation will have direct effect with a six-month transition period, which is quite short, my view is that manufacturers, consultants and many people in our field need to know the projected timeline as early as possible. Months ago I pasted the info about the 6 month transition into my notes without proper attribution, and I'm not certain what "direct effect" really means, but it doesn't sound very accommodating, does it? Best regards, Doug CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] FCC Requirements for mobile industrial robots
That makes good sense to me, Larry, and confirms my thoughts on this. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On 7-Mar-22, at 12:06, Larry K. Stillings > wrote: > > Doug, > > I would think FCC Part 15 Subpart B, Class A is applicable for the rest of > the system, some say its exempt, I would go on the side of caution and see if > it will me Class A. > > Larry K. Stillings > Compliance Worldwide, Inc. > Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World! > FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product > Safety > 357 Main Street > Sandown, NH 03873 > (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445 > complianceworldwide.com <https://complianceworldwide.com/> > Follow us on social media >linkedin.com/company/compliance-worldwide-inc > > twitter.com/complianceww > Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you > are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery > of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to > anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the > sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do > not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, > conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the > official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor > endorsed by it. > > From: Doug Nix > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2022 12:05 PM > To: Larry K. Stillings > Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC Requirements for mobile industrial robots > > Thanks, Larry. This is helpful. > > Now, what about the unintentional emissions from the rest of the equipment, > i.e., sensors, drives, PC controller, battery charge management system… > Remember, this puppy is going into an industrial environment. It’s not a > Roomba. > > Doug Nix > d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org> > +1 (519) 729-5704 > > > On 7-Mar-22, at 12:01, Larry K. Stillings <mailto:la...@complianceworldwide.com>> wrote: > > Doug, > > The FCC KDB 996369 D04 provides the best guidance for installing pre-approved > radios into hosts. > > Larry K. Stillings > Compliance Worldwide, Inc. > Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World! > FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product > Safety > 357 Main Street > Sandown, NH 03873 > (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445 > complianceworldwide.com <https://complianceworldwide.com/> > Follow us on social media >linkedin.com/company/compliance-worldwide-inc > > twitter.com/complianceww > Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you > are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery > of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to > anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the > sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do > not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, > conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the > official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor > endorsed by it. > > From: Doug Nix > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2022 11:58 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > Subject: [PSES] FCC Requirements for mobile industrial robots > > Colleagues, > > I am trying to get a handle on the FCC requirements for autonomous mobile > industrial robot products. For an example of a similar product, see the 6 > River Systems machines: https://6river.com <https://6river.com/>. > > The WiFi/Bluetooth module used in the product is pre-qualified, so I think > that aspect is covered. What I’m concerned about are the rest of the > emissions from the onboard electronics/PC/motor drive, etc. Does all of this > fall under Part 15, Class B? As far as international requirements are > concerned, the devices fall into CISPR 11 / EN 55011 Group 1, for use in a > Class A environment. > > Doug Nix > d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org> > +1 (519) 729-5704 > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <http://www.ieee-pse
Re: [PSES] FCC Requirements for mobile industrial robots
Hi Ken, Nope. It’s an industrial robot, so outside the scope of IEC 61326. IEC 60204-1 is the dominant standard in that sector, however, not relevant for US and Canadian markets. CISPR 11 and IEC 61000-6-2 and -6-4 are the EMC standards. The question is: How does this relate to FCC requirements? Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On 7-Mar-22, at 12:03, Ken Wyatt wrote: > > Hi Doug, wouldn’t this fall under IEC 61326 as an industrial product? That > standard specifies CISPR 11 and it would fall under Class A (industrial > environments). As such, I suspect the FCC would consider ISM products as > exempt from Part 15 (except for the non-interference clause). > > Ken > > ___ > > I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions > related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy to > help! > > Kenneth Wyatt > Wyatt Technical Services LLC > 56 Aspen Dr. > Woodland Park, CO 80863 > > Contact Me! <http://www.emc-seminars.com/page1/Contact.php>New Books! > <https://www.amazon.com/Kenneth-Wyatt/e/B00SNQ1LJ2> > > > > > Web Site <http://www.emc-seminars.com/> | Blog <https://design-4-emc.com/> > The EMC Blog (EDN) > <https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/4376432/The-EMC-Blog> > Subscribe to Newsletter > <http://www.emc-seminars.com/Newsletter/Newsletter.html> > Connect with me on LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/kennethwyatt/> > >> On Mar 7, 2022, at 9:58 AM, Doug Nix mailto:d...@ieee.org>> >> wrote: >> >> Colleagues, >> >> I am trying to get a handle on the FCC requirements for autonomous mobile >> industrial robot products. For an example of a similar product, see the 6 >> River Systems machines: https://6river.com <https://6river.com/>. >> >> The WiFi/Bluetooth module used in the product is pre-qualified, so I think >> that aspect is covered. What I’m concerned about are the rest of the >> emissions from the onboard electronics/PC/motor drive, etc. Does all of this >> fall under Part 15, Class B? As far as international requirements are >> concerned, the devices fall into CISPR 11 / EN 55011 Group 1, for use in a >> Class A environment. >> >> Doug Nix >> d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org> >> +1 (519) 729-5704 >> >> - >> >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to >> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >> <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> >> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at >> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ >> <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in >> well-used formats), large files, etc. >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> >> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> >> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> >> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> >> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
Re: [PSES] FCC Requirements for mobile industrial robots
Thanks, Larry. This is helpful. Now, what about the unintentional emissions from the rest of the equipment, i.e., sensors, drives, PC controller, battery charge management system… Remember, this puppy is going into an industrial environment. It’s not a Roomba. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On 7-Mar-22, at 12:01, Larry K. Stillings > wrote: > > Doug, > > The FCC KDB 996369 D04 provides the best guidance for installing pre-approved > radios into hosts. > > Larry K. Stillings > Compliance Worldwide, Inc. > Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World! > FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product > Safety > 357 Main Street > Sandown, NH 03873 > (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445 > complianceworldwide.com <https://complianceworldwide.com/> > Follow us on social media >linkedin.com/company/compliance-worldwide-inc > > twitter.com/complianceww > Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you > are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery > of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to > anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the > sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do > not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, > conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the > official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor > endorsed by it. > > From: Doug Nix > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2022 11:58 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] FCC Requirements for mobile industrial robots > > Colleagues, > > I am trying to get a handle on the FCC requirements for autonomous mobile > industrial robot products. For an example of a similar product, see the 6 > River Systems machines: https://6river.com <https://6river.com/>. > > The WiFi/Bluetooth module used in the product is pre-qualified, so I think > that aspect is covered. What I’m concerned about are the rest of the > emissions from the onboard electronics/PC/motor drive, etc. Does all of this > fall under Part 15, Class B? As far as international requirements are > concerned, the devices fall into CISPR 11 / EN 55011 Group 1, for use in a > Class A environment. > > Doug Nix > d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org> > +1 (519) 729-5704 > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
[PSES] FCC Requirements for mobile industrial robots
Colleagues, I am trying to get a handle on the FCC requirements for autonomous mobile industrial robot products. For an example of a similar product, see the 6 River Systems machines: https://6river.com <https://6river.com/>. The WiFi/Bluetooth module used in the product is pre-qualified, so I think that aspect is covered. What I’m concerned about are the rest of the emissions from the onboard electronics/PC/motor drive, etc. Does all of this fall under Part 15, Class B? As far as international requirements are concerned, the devices fall into CISPR 11 / EN 55011 Group 1, for use in a Class A environment. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] FCC Requirements for mobile industrial robots
Colleagues, I am trying to get a handle on the FCC requirements for autonomous mobile industrial robot products. For an example of a similar product, see the 6 River Systems machines: https://6river.com <https://6river.com/>. The WiFi/Bluetooth module used in the product is pre-qualified, so I think that aspect is covered. What I’m concerned about are the rest of the emissions from the onboard electronics/PC/motor drive, etc. Does all of this fall under Part 15, Class B? As far as international requirements are concerned, the devices fall into CISPR 11 / EN 55011 Group 1, for use in a Class A environment. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
Re: [PSES] Earthing -- Star vs Spring/Split Washers
James, If your concerns are above 60 Hz, i.e., you’re thinking about HF bonding as well as LF bonding for safety, then I have two excellent resources for you: [1] T. Williams, K. Armstrong, EMC for Systems and Installations, 1st Ed. Oxford: Newnes. 2000. ISBN 0 7506 4167 3 [2] E.B. Joffe, K. Lock, Grounds for Grounding, 1st ed. Hoboken: Wiley & Sons. 2010. ISBN 978-0471-66008-8 Both books are very good. In [1], have a look at p.121-122. In [2], have a look at p.335-336. Actually, Chapter 5 on bonding, starting at p. 323, is excellent. I could recommend others, but I think those two are a great start. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On 15-Feb-22, at 14:48, Douglas E Powell wrote: > > James, > > Most safety standards have requirements for ground bond testing based on the > current available in the hazard. I've never seen requirements specifying the > type of washer other than it cannot have compressible material in the stack > up, as polymers or fiber washers. > > Back in the day, I learned my earthing (EU) or grounding (US) for high power > equipment from a German expert at LGA Landesgewerbeanstalt Bayern in Nürnberg > and the guidance I received was to use star washers on plain metal surfaces; > not to cut through paint as many believe, but to dig into the metal parts to > provide an oxygen free connection. Yes, initial conductivity for a steel star > washer is not great, but the EU Liability Directive would indicate that the > connection needs to be reliable for up to 10 years. For a normally very low > current (mA) ground to launch into service at a moment's notice, and safely > carry away a few hundred amps, is sometimes a challenge if the long term > environment is in the least bit corrosive. > > Notably, my mentor also allowed serrated lock washers. > > Best, Doug > > Douglas E Powell > Laporte, Colorado USA > LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/> > > (UTC -07:00) Mountain Time (US-MST) > > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 8:34 AM James Pawson (U3C) > mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk>> wrote: > Hello all, > > > > I’ve given myself a regular internet headache trying to understand the > relative merits of spring vs star washers for use on an earth stud for > protective earthing purposes. > > > > What is the conventional wisdom and justification? I know I can trust you > folks to be above a simple “we’ve always done it this way” > > > > Can anyone point me towards any citable references or standards covering this > subject? > > > > I promise I will write a blog post to pull the information together for > future confused generations. > > > > Thanks and all the best, > > James > > > > > > James Pawson > > The EMC Problem Solver > > > > Unit 3 Compliance Ltd > > EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy > > > > www.unit3compliance.co.uk <http://www.unit3compliance.co.uk/> | > ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk <mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> > +44(0)1274 911747 | +44(0)7811 139957 > > 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL > > Registered in England and Wales # 10574298 > > > > > > > > > > <https://www.avg.com/internet-security> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. > www.avg.com <https://www.avg.com/internet-security> > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send m
[PSES] EMO vs E-Stop - New post on machinerysafety101.com
Colleagues, A while ago there was a discussion thread on this list regarding the differences between EMO and emergency stop. At the time I commented that I should write a post on the topic on my blog, and today I published that post. I know that Mike Sherman was part of the SEMI-S2 committee, so I’m counting on Mike to debunk any errors I made. I look forward to the discussion! https://machinerysafety101.com/2022/02/08/emo-vs-estop/ <https://machinerysafety101.com/2022/02/08/emo-vs-estop/> Best, Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
Re: [PSES] Machinery Leakage Current
Hi Mark, I’ve seen mains filters used for 400 V 3 ph. 200A services with leakage currents close to 30 mA. Consider that RCBOs commonly used outside North America have a design trip current of 30 mA, so leakage currents above 30 mA will cause the RCBO to trip. None the less, these large leakage currents can be startling the first time you see them “in the wild”. Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On 1-Feb-22, at 13:24, Stultz, Mark > <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > Hello, <> > Is there a hard limit for leakage current for machinery in the EU? IEC > 60204-1 provides instructions in clause 8.2.8 for “equipment having earth > leakage currents higher than 10 mA”. This seems quite high so we have > applied the 3.5 mA limits for class 1 stationary equipment in IEC 60335-1. > Is there another source for leakage current limits that is > machinery-specific? There is nothing in the type-C standard for this product > type. > > Thanks, > > Mark Stultz > > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
Re: [PSES] Minimizing EM radiation from a 5G multi device test lab
Hi Chas and the group, Why not just turn down the RF power on your router a bit? Doing this also improves security. You can also change channel assignments as well but that may require coordination with the others in the building. But lowering the power level does not. Just set it to be adequate in your space. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D8183B.D5BC3C90] From: Charles Grasso Sent: Wednesday, February 2, 2022 11:45 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Minimizing EM radiation from a 5G multi device test lab Greetings from snowy Colorado! We have multiple WIFI devices in a lab and we need to suppress the RF signals (NOT EMI) to reduce the interference from affecting other WIFI areas of the building. Does anyone know of a cheap and effective way of doing this? TIA Chas -- Charles Grasso Dish Technologies (c) 303-204-2974 (h) 303-317-5530 (e ) charles.gra...@dish.com<mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com> (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com<mailto:chasgra...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc-2Dpstc.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=i1FHuxVpqHb2zVzgGLxA5VxCwh4jE0l9QpekXYG_YOQ=5M1a-FbR4AgGaTK0hazPNOc-tx3Bl0P6-oeBPw66ZZw=> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc.ieee.org_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=i1FHuxVpqHb2zVzgGLxA5VxCwh4jE0l9QpekXYG_YOQ=Grrg2XvFXt_ZwQHZNH_a-TXDWgewGuYRlKzcxHVgAEQ=> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=i1FHuxVpqHb2zVzgGLxA5VxCwh4jE0l9QpekXYG_YOQ=zjSGerVJF_VR0kWSupJn6bxSpKW69GBWbjhwm9ukMdM=> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_list.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=i1FHuxVpqHb2zVzgGLxA5VxCwh4jE0l9QpekXYG_YOQ=z2R8oFKp4FMCa7kQsCgj3Chk162TzZTBI0X2vlKwP-g=> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_listrules.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=i1FHuxVpqHb2zVzgGLxA5VxCwh4jE0l9QpekXYG_YOQ=fwIH7PWyJrXByHEA-dmddDP5KBJsmYCX2i-6n-m-X_Q=> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] EMC/SIPI symposium question
Hi Curt and the group, I believe that by then or a little later the number may be 90%. If that happens and does not trigger restrictions, it would be a good thing as Omicron seems to be for most people a head cold. I guess there is no way to know for sure so far in the future. That is why I think I will delay registering until the summer. Hopefully by then we will know more. The problem is if everyone does that it will drive the Symposium organizers nuts trying to plan everything and having everyone register two weeks before. One complicating issue is many of the people in EMC are getting on in years which makes pandemic planning more uncertain for them. I may be the exception to the rule being 74 and I can still outrun most 30 year olds, especially at 115 degrees in the Southern Nevada desert! Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D81447.7C391960] From: Curt McNamara Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 9:35 To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org Cc: doug emcesd.com ; doug...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC/SIPI symposium question I see chatter about Covid on the list, and this article has a lot of good info: "By the end of February, 36%-46% of the US population will have been infected with Omicron" https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/what-now-how-pandemics-end<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com_p_what-2Dnow-2Dhow-2Dpandemics-2Dend=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=hE8IFAi4fwTwMi2sr7EUT2QsSOsIXOxJ6LZG8bNMdn4=aUJ24uYNPIUvBiuB5QODKXDrkRVwg_hz8yjZVbAZ7QA=> Curt On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:30 AM Douglas E Powell mailto:doug...@gmail.com>> wrote: Doug, I've been seeing reports from some nations that the case load is beginning to trend down. Whether this is a result of everyone being exposed and the general population gaining some natural immunity is unknown. However, a small number of professionals are beginning to talk about the pandemic transitioning to an endemic in certain locations. Your guess is as good as mine as to when that may happen in this country. Where I live, restrictions are still in place, and I do not see any light in the tunnel yet. -Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA doug...@gmail.com<mailto:doug...@gmail.com> LinkedIn<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_coloradocomplianceguy_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=hE8IFAi4fwTwMi2sr7EUT2QsSOsIXOxJ6LZG8bNMdn4=5Q98PH0AvsMm8dcVqeB5VRrdnmXngETUjtZ_62z7Wlg=> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 3:05 PM doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=hE8IFAi4fwTwMi2sr7EUT2QsSOsIXOxJ6LZG8bNMdn4=dila8ltA-yGMIit1L5dmj7ro1r1ZnGuvCNkG16FHAaw=> mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote: Hi Everyone, I just saw an announcement from the Symposium in August in Spokane, WI and had a question. What is the current Covid climate like there from the point of review of restrictions and as a local, do you think it will change by the end of summer? The kind of typical restrictions I see around the country would make the event not worth attending for me, certainly taking away from the pleasure of going to the Symposium, potentially increasing the cost of going there significantly. I am hoping that like England, Ireland, and Denmark have done, all the restrictions will go away soon here. Here in Boulder City, NV my personal life has been very little effected during the pandemic. I hope Spokane is the same. Doug [https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2=b7f18dfbad=0.1=17ea1bf6d9ef0e58=fimg=ip=17ea1bf6d9ef0e58=w1600-h1000=ANGjdJ8yOf_K5nkt10H0N_FBPnK65ZCQlB6NaN8Ka_OK7GSuieCZVKK9i4FqEn2_iny6eupTfpQffIp_lY5Vp9NyR1poW3xywbw41XiMj0qkrGnwq7KkZ] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc-2Dpstc.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=hE8IFAi4fwTwMi2sr7EUT2QsSOsIXOxJ6LZG8bNMdn4=qX27wp7L78x4OgTUyLVYKjImuLR0__mnOXmWu45cxPk=> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc.ieee.org_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=hE8IFAi4fwTwMi2sr7EUT2QsSOsIXOxJ6LZG8bNMdn4=NdrM-z0QNE7vR5PGyPdXP9meDzZgvCmtprFckYJsWTs=> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://urld
Re: [PSES] EMC/SIPI symposium question
Thanks, Dan and others for your thoughts. I think I will probably wait to register until a week or two before the Symposium. I have two concerns. One is just the fact that just having restrictions takes a lot of the fun out of coming. Social distancing and masking would definitely make the Symposium experience less appealing. The other is getting stuck there and not being able to come home because of a false positive test as the tests are not that reliable. That would be a disaster. I don’t worry about coming down with Covid myself while there as the chances of that happening for me is approximately zero given I have not had a sore throat, cold, or flu in 50 years now since I figured out, for me, how to eliminate viral diseases. I never get sick anymore even when around sick people. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: Dan Roman Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 5:41:26 AM To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] EMC/SIPI symposium question Hi Doug, Based on the events of the past two years I think the only thing that you can predict for the symposium is that conditions in a pandemic are unpredictable. We have no hope of getting rid of variants until the whole world is vaccinated and boosted (probably multiple times at the current rate of vaccination). So who can say if a peak of upsilon or omega will coincide with the symposium? Depends also on the policies of the symposium organizers. CES proceeded with their live in-person show this month with vaccine mandates and testing. Probably won’t know for another week if it resulted in a COVID bloom. But if it proves to have been successfully and safely conducted, it could be a model for future conference organizers. Dan From: doug emcesd.com [mailto:d...@emcesd.com] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 5:05 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] EMC/SIPI symposium question Hi Everyone, I just saw an announcement from the Symposium in August in Spokane, WI and had a question. What is the current Covid climate like there from the point of review of restrictions and as a local, do you think it will change by the end of summer? The kind of typical restrictions I see around the country would make the event not worth attending for me, certainly taking away from the pleasure of going to the Symposium, potentially increasing the cost of going there significantly. I am hoping that like England, Ireland, and Denmark have done, all the restrictions will go away soon here. Here in Boulder City, NV my personal life has been very little effected during the pandemic. I hope Spokane is the same. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D81421.EE34E5B0] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc-2Dpstc.html=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=jCRzTaNQorPZq38xZ6lIGQ=oOrJ3fUDj1AbbBVi2FHQ4YXCXpMgYzky9Fs212ZLV9M=IKjSUffy9MvAG7zPRrJrCYK5o40sPnhss3YYRg4rVZE=> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc.ieee.org_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=jCRzTaNQorPZq38xZ6lIGQ=oOrJ3fUDj1AbbBVi2FHQ4YXCXpMgYzky9Fs212ZLV9M=NRBBqseZFjYOyJiYWr5gaE2ORDQINJpD6uDiRSLjdmc=> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=jCRzTaNQorPZq38xZ6lIGQ=oOrJ3fUDj1AbbBVi2FHQ4YXCXpMgYzky9Fs212ZLV9M=70gi5uWGumWchROJFYC0yG3p2zkK5Szk9lK0lXNHebI=> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_list.html=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=jCRzTaNQorPZq38xZ6lIGQ=oOrJ3fUDj1AbbBVi2FHQ4YXCXpMgYzky9Fs212ZLV9M=_xvYecPYacIhyBBa5DSbb9q1QsZxNvOlPbVHbeLd7pE=> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_listrules.html=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=jCRzTaNQorPZq38xZ6lIGQ=oOrJ3fUDj1AbbBVi2FHQ4YXCXpMgYzky9Fs212ZLV9M=dE4oDBynmzRJ0UhWli7xVf3TRfWtOrMfUicx-x0_s9U=> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: J
[PSES] EMC/SIPI symposium question
Hi Everyone, I just saw an announcement from the Symposium in August in Spokane, WI and had a question. What is the current Covid climate like there from the point of review of restrictions and as a local, do you think it will change by the end of summer? The kind of typical restrictions I see around the country would make the event not worth attending for me, certainly taking away from the pleasure of going to the Symposium, potentially increasing the cost of going there significantly. I am hoping that like England, Ireland, and Denmark have done, all the restrictions will go away soon here. Here in Boulder City, NV my personal life has been very little effected during the pandemic. I hope Spokane is the same. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D81385.FDEC0070] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ?
On Monday, John Woodgate and I unintentionally continued the thread without ‘replying all’. Here is what we are pasting back into the EMC-PSTC thread: On 2021-12-14 17:29, Kealey, Doug wrote: Thank you for the link and summary. It’s unfortunate for the consumer electronics industry that the court ruled the way it did. Your statement that I highlighted is comforting. The same can be said of the 3rd edition right now, which is also comforting, and should be helpful in persuading my team to only spend money & time on acquiring 3rd edition reports (and no 2nd edition reports) from this point forward, until CENELEC adopts and publishes the IEC 4th edition. Thanks, Doug - -- From: John Woodgate <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 10:38 AM To: Kealey, Doug <mailto:doug.kea...@garmin.com> Subject: Re: [PSES] dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ? You won't believe the court case. In Ireland, a supplier sent a load of building material to a construction company. It was said to meet the applicable European standard, but it cracked after a short time and was shown to have an excessive sulfur content. In the resulting trial, the plaintiff argued that the standard was part of EU law, and this assertion went right up to the highest European court and was confirmed. Google has the gory details: https://curia.europa.eu/juris/liste.jsf?language=en=C-613/14<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/curia.europa.eu/juris/liste.jsf?language=en=C-613*14__;Lw!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!FNOEeJd37_L86N00uqh_SJF0feBzoJh57gjnt-m3KaY_ofFjjCkxFx-kjh1iLZkdqw$> To be clear, CENELEC could adopt and publish the IEC 4th edition unchanged (thus reinforcing its status as 'state of the art'), but the Commission would then not list it in the OJ unless it meets the legal requirements. What manufacturers would prefer is a CENELEC version that does meet the legal requirements. That would mean agreeing in CENELEC a range of 'Common Modifications' of the IEC 4th edition. But there is no guarantee that such modifications are possible, and if the need for all the referenced standards to also pass the legal test is also asserted, the problem becomes infinitely insoluble. == Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only www.woodjohn.uk<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.woodjohn.uk__;!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!FNOEeJd37_L86N00uqh_SJF0feBzoJh57gjnt-m3KaY_ofFjjCkxFx-kjh0fS0X35Q$> Rayleigh, Essex UK Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque - - -- On 2021-12-14 16:03, Kealey, Doug wrote: How unfortunate. That does not sound like a recipe for things getting back in sync in the next 2-3 years. I had no idea there was a court case. What a wealth of information you have. As long as the IEC editions keep appearing before the CENELEC edition, manufacturers will be probably be able to get test reports to the current IEC version and write a defensible justification for their EU technical file (to explain being one edition ahead of the EN version). This would avoid the bad scenario of paying for 2 different versions of test reports for each product. If the CENELEC editions were to be finalised before the IEC editions, then I don’t know how manufacturers will convince all the IEC countries to accept an EN 62368-1 test report that is 1 edition ahead of IEC 62368-1. Yikes. Best, Doug --- From: John Woodgate <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 9:43 AM To: Kealey, Doug <mailto:doug.kea...@garmin.com> Subject: Re: [PSES] dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ? I'm afraid it's totally unpredictable. The IEC version will probably appear in 2023, maybe near the end; until we see the comments on the 1CD we can't tell. But we have no idea what will happen in CENELEC. It is widely agreed that the HAS consultants should attend the standards committee meetings, so as to get agreement on acceptable wording as soon as possible. But the Commission treasury has refused to fund that! I think that could be a form of 'knocking heads together', but whether any of the heads will be receptive is in doubt. While the situation could be resolved immediately by decisive action, such as declaring that standards are not to be regarded as quasi- or plesio-legal documents, i.e. reversing the court decision, it is very unlikely that it will happen. == Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only www.woodjohn.uk<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.woodjohn.uk__;!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!De4WZNqYzAUEQd4xbB59r9exq8GZ45svV4PwfDNDSGNtbAE_OHxLZCiG778NUdXNVQ$> Rayleigh, Esse
Re: [PSES] dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ?
Hi Matthew, Very interesting. Does that mean that manufacturers who use module A or B+C to demonstrate compliance with 3.1.a of RED or LVD could actually rely on their EN 62368-1:2014 test reports for possibly 3 more years or longer? Best regards, Doug From: Matthew Larkin Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 8:50 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ? Hi Charlie Correct CENELEC TC108x has decided to not pursue citation with 3rd Edition. Best Regards Matthew - Original Message - Sender : Charlie Blackham Date : 2021-12-13 14:41 (GMT+0) Title : Re: [PSES] dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ? Doug I don’t have the citation, but understand that there’s a general rule that standards added to OJ listing provide (at least) an 18 month period before existing standard is superceded That said, there are a large number of reasons why the EU Commission have rejected 62368-1 3rd edition as a Harmonised Standard, so I’m not expecting it to be listed (EN 62368-1:2014 was listed under the previous acceptance criteria and published on the “C” list on Eur-Lex and my understanding is it wouldn’t meet the more stringent requirement to provide legal conformity to be listed on the “L” list as is now required for all Harmonised Standards) Best regards Charlie Charlie Blackham Sulis Consultants Ltd Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317 Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=47c10c8b-185a35c6-47c087c4-0cc47aa8f5ba-a85b2324af9a695a=1=2808e23f-7fa5-400a-a41a-8255b859cb47=https*3A*2F*2Fsulisconsultants.com*2F__;JSUlJQ!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!CFZVpe3xd4XZjVwAGUXGfvIX8iX63xxn5uBko8F-U_3y35YmO022nL9-9QPjiV_m0A$> Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247 From: Kealey, Doug <1230523daaa3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> Sent: 13 December 2021 14:29 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ? Thank you Boštjan, Your response is very helpful. If EN 62368-1:2020+A11:2020 is listed in OJEU in December 2022, do you think they will delay the DoW date for EN 62368-1:2014 until 12 or 24 months after Jan 06 2023? Is there a rule or a precedent that the Commission will delay it? Best regards, Doug From: Boštjan Glavič mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si>> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2021 11:11 PM To: Kealey, Doug mailto:doug.kea...@garmin.com>>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: RE: dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ? CAUTION - EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click any links or open any attachments unless you trust the sender and know the content is safe. Hi Doug, As there is no successor of EN 62368-1:2014 listed in OJEU, there is no DoW for this one. Date of Cessation in your standard is is for Cenelec (standardization) purpose only. So EN 62368-1:2014 will continue to be harmonized standard after Jan 06 2023. Best regards, Boštjan From: Kealey, Doug <1230523daaa3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:1230523daaa3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 5:42 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ? Hi All, In my copy of EN IEC 62368-1:2020+A11:2020 (3rd edition), the dow date for the cessation of the 2nd edition shows as Jan. 6, 2023. If the OJ does not list the 3rd edition as a harmonised standard until after Jan. 6, 2023 (let’s pretend the OJ harmonises the 3rd edition on May 1, 2023), will 2nd edition remain a harmonised standard until at least May 1, 2023? OR will there exist a situation for approx 4 months, during which there is no harmonised standard for this category of products? We have a plan that accounts for this scenario, but if I get pulled into a discussion about the way this technically unfolds, I want to be prepared to answer. Any precedents you can recall for safety standards? Perhaps a past situation where a new revision was late in being cited in the OJ as a harmonised standard, did the Commission push out the dow date several additional months past the date of being cited in the OJ, to give manufactures more time to complete their technical files and update their DoC’s? Thanks so much, Doug Kealey CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.
Re: [PSES] dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ?
Thank you Boštjan, Your response is very helpful. If EN 62368-1:2020+A11:2020 is listed in OJEU in December 2022, do you think they will delay the DoW date for EN 62368-1:2014 until 12 or 24 months after Jan 06 2023? Is there a rule or a precedent that the Commission will delay it? Best regards, Doug From: Boštjan Glavič Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2021 11:11 PM To: Kealey, Doug ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ? CAUTION - EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click any links or open any attachments unless you trust the sender and know the content is safe. Hi Doug, As there is no successor of EN 62368-1:2014 listed in OJEU, there is no DoW for this one. Date of Cessation in your standard is is for Cenelec (standardization) purpose only. So EN 62368-1:2014 will continue to be harmonized standard after Jan 06 2023. Best regards, Boštjan From: Kealey, Doug <1230523daaa3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:1230523daaa3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 5:42 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ? Hi All, In my copy of EN IEC 62368-1:2020+A11:2020 (3rd edition), the dow date for the cessation of the 2nd edition shows as Jan. 6, 2023. If the OJ does not list the 3rd edition as a harmonised standard until after Jan. 6, 2023 (let's pretend the OJ harmonises the 3rd edition on May 1, 2023), will 2nd edition remain a harmonised standard until at least May 1, 2023? OR will there exist a situation for approx 4 months, during which there is no harmonised standard for this category of products? We have a plan that accounts for this scenario, but if I get pulled into a discussion about the way this technically unfolds, I want to be prepared to answer. Any precedents you can recall for safety standards? Perhaps a past situation where a new revision was late in being cited in the OJ as a harmonised standard, did the Commission push out the dow date several additional months past the date of being cited in the OJ, to give manufactures more time to complete their technical files and update their DoC's? Thanks so much, Doug Kealey CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html__;!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!FkjxwoFg4zMfnwGI_KT4gwimKB8269hg81zlZhSjBpgsWrmq2zrMYHlqLJDshh3SRw$> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/__;!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!FkjxwoFg4zMfnwGI_KT4gwimKB8269hg81zlZhSjBpgsWrmq2zrMYHlqLJChr_63DA$> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.ieee-pses.org/__;!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!FkjxwoFg4zMfnwGI_KT4gwimKB8269hg81zlZhSjBpgsWrmq2zrMYHlqLJBOX7Llww$> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.ieee-pses.org/list.html__;!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!FkjxwoFg4zMfnwGI_KT4gwimKB8269hg81zlZhSjBpgsWrmq2zrMYHlqLJA9-WVyWQ$> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html__;!!EJc4YC3iFmQ!FkjxwoFg4zMfnwGI_KT4gwimKB8269hg81zlZhSjBpgsWrmq2zrMYHlqLJDuPA6eJQ$> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large f
[PSES] dow date for EN 62368-1:2014 ?
Hi All, In my copy of EN IEC 62368-1:2020+A11:2020 (3rd edition), the dow date for the cessation of the 2nd edition shows as Jan. 6, 2023. If the OJ does not list the 3rd edition as a harmonised standard until after Jan. 6, 2023 (let's pretend the OJ harmonises the 3rd edition on May 1, 2023), will 2nd edition remain a harmonised standard until at least May 1, 2023? OR will there exist a situation for approx 4 months, during which there is no harmonised standard for this category of products? We have a plan that accounts for this scenario, but if I get pulled into a discussion about the way this technically unfolds, I want to be prepared to answer. Any precedents you can recall for safety standards? Perhaps a past situation where a new revision was late in being cited in the OJ as a harmonised standard, did the Commission push out the dow date several additional months past the date of being cited in the OJ, to give manufactures more time to complete their technical files and update their DoC's? Thanks so much, Doug Kealey CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question
There is a device between us and the electrical system that does the power cycling. We have no control over that device, part of the vehicle. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: Ken Javor Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2021 7:55:05 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question The purpose of a LISN when testing for vehicular use is to simulate the common impedance between battery and fuse block. There should be no power cycling “behind” the LISN, because in the vehicle there is no switch between battery and fuse block other than the ignition switch itself. Therefore the power cycling device goes between the LISN output and the switched load. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Douglas Smith https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__doug-40emcesd.com=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc=>> Reply-To: Douglas Smith https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__doug-40emcesd.com=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc=>> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:16:51 + To: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__EMC-2DPSTC-40LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=RMadKU3rlYA8dxMrL249JcSU5tJZbNiPKINvJSO5bwo=>> Subject: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question Hi All, I have come across an unusual conducted emissions issue with a device where the impedance stabilization network for automotive testing itself causes a problem that will not let a class of equipment ever pass because of the network not the equipment itself. In this case, the power is cycled every second and the device that does that is behind the network as that is not being tested. The interrupted power goes through the network (12 Volts) and to the EUT. We got to the point where we replace the EUT with a DC load, 10 Ohm resistor in parallel with a 10 uF cap, to simulate the inrush current. That combination fails at the low end of the frequency spectrum a lot because the network, just a collection of L, C, and R is ringing at each power transition. Any thoughts? Seems like an artifact of the standard. The device cycling power is a lab circuit and not part of the test and so should be behind the network. Doug [cid:3721931705_1385162] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emc-2Dpstc-40ieee.org=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=ZlitdX1VfubivGC9jkpGQcoDatsRqj9Wo2t42QNZdps=>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc-2Dpstc.html=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=x6v4xGMrPmoYHz7S80sJILsa99gfEHYLSX1WKcmVvRo=> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc.ieee.org_=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=YNjkXEZzf_I3M6vrDx5RMNqgCusIcDXqtImtrgDGEI8=> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=H5grCqOvpZBXxGk8OREKrGJLHZ5sIEBDvgZTYCSaPA8=> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_list.html=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OxdeheCrtcDPicj_IETnf2LiKY3G6GiYtZio-RAzNQg=> (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_list.html=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OxdeheCrtcDPicj_IETnf2LiKY3G6GiYtZio-RAzNQg=>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html&
Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question
Not a car. The power to our EUT is cycled by a a device. To put it on the other side of the LISN would not mean much as we have no control of that device. And even if we did that, the continuous interruption of the DC current would still send the LISN into oscillation at each current edge. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: Ken Javor Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2021 7:55:05 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question The purpose of a LISN when testing for vehicular use is to simulate the common impedance between battery and fuse block. There should be no power cycling “behind” the LISN, because in the vehicle there is no switch between battery and fuse block other than the ignition switch itself. Therefore the power cycling device goes between the LISN output and the switched load. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Douglas Smith https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__doug-40emcesd.com=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc=>> Reply-To: Douglas Smith https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__doug-40emcesd.com=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc=>> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:16:51 + To: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__EMC-2DPSTC-40LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=RMadKU3rlYA8dxMrL249JcSU5tJZbNiPKINvJSO5bwo=>> Subject: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question Hi All, I have come across an unusual conducted emissions issue with a device where the impedance stabilization network for automotive testing itself causes a problem that will not let a class of equipment ever pass because of the network not the equipment itself. In this case, the power is cycled every second and the device that does that is behind the network as that is not being tested. The interrupted power goes through the network (12 Volts) and to the EUT. We got to the point where we replace the EUT with a DC load, 10 Ohm resistor in parallel with a 10 uF cap, to simulate the inrush current. That combination fails at the low end of the frequency spectrum a lot because the network, just a collection of L, C, and R is ringing at each power transition. Any thoughts? Seems like an artifact of the standard. The device cycling power is a lab circuit and not part of the test and so should be behind the network. Doug [cid:3721931705_1385162] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emc-2Dpstc-40ieee.org=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=ZlitdX1VfubivGC9jkpGQcoDatsRqj9Wo2t42QNZdps=>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc-2Dpstc.html=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=x6v4xGMrPmoYHz7S80sJILsa99gfEHYLSX1WKcmVvRo=> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc.ieee.org_=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=YNjkXEZzf_I3M6vrDx5RMNqgCusIcDXqtImtrgDGEI8=> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=H5grCqOvpZBXxGk8OREKrGJLHZ5sIEBDvgZTYCSaPA8=> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_list.html=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OxdeheCrtcDPicj_IETnf2LiKY3G6GiYtZio-RAzNQg=> (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_list.html=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry
[PSES] unusual conducted emissions question
Hi All, I have come across an unusual conducted emissions issue with a device where the impedance stabilization network for automotive testing itself causes a problem that will not let a class of equipment ever pass because of the network not the equipment itself. In this case, the power is cycled every second and the device that does that is behind the network as that is not being tested. The interrupted power goes through the network (12 Volts) and to the EUT. We got to the point where we replace the EUT with a DC load, 10 Ohm resistor in parallel with a 10 uF cap, to simulate the inrush current. That combination fails at the low end of the frequency spectrum a lot because the network, just a collection of L, C, and R is ringing at each power transition. Any thoughts? Seems like an artifact of the standard. The device cycling power is a lab circuit and not part of the test and so should be behind the network. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D7ED18.2C067E20] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] new videos and my Odysee channel for them
Hi All, Here is the link to my latest newsletter which has links to several videos on my new Odysee channel. I plan to copy over all my YouTube videos plus add more content. I will not be adding any more to my YouTube channel. Newsletter: https://conta.cc/3DET0Re Odysee channel: (https://odysee.com/@Dougsengineering) This weekend I will be designing and building a 10:1 current divider to measure the current of my little EMP setup in the lab. I will post a video of that next week. This would be handy if you have a current probe and want to measure higher currents that your probe can handle. Since I usually am doing troubleshooting measurements, such a current divider is ideal. If I were making measurements to a standard with legal implications, probably best to obtain a calibrated current probe with the desired characteristics. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D7A0D0.09B38280] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Touch temperature limits for accessible parts
Hey Scott, You might want to have a look at EN 563, Safety of Machinery—Temperatures of touchable surfaces—Ergonomics data to establish temp. limits EN 13202, ERGONOMICS OF THE THERMAL ENVIRONMENT - TEMPERATURES OF TOUCHABLE HOT SURFACES - GUIDANCE FOR ESTABLISHING SURFACE TEMPERATURE LIMIT VALUES IN PRODUCT STANDARDS WITH THE AID OF EN 563 ISO 13732-1:2006, Ergonomics of the thermal environment — Methods for the assessment of human responses to contact with surfaces — Part 1: Hot surfaces Doug Nix d...@ieee.org +1 (519) 729-5704 > On 2-Sep-21, at 09:02, Scott Xe wrote: > > I am looking for advice on temp measurements and the requirements. I have an > in-car charger with a temp of 80 degC on external plastic enclosure at max > load. Referring to EN 62368-1, the max temp is from 48 - 94 degC depending > on the time to be touched to operate the equipment. During operation, it is > unnecessary to touch the external enclosure except plugging in and taking out > from cigarette socket. Is it deemed to apply 94 degC? > > Should the max temp be measured at room temp of 25 degC or the maximum > operating temp? If at max operating temp, how to derive the max temp limits > in such conditions? > > Thanks and regards, > > Scott > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] my latest video
Hi All, I have two Odysee channels, @Dougsenginnering and @Dougshealthandrunning I have just posted a video to @Dougsengineering working on developing my V1.0 EMP generator. Work like this often ends up generating content for my classes. Here is the link: https://odysee.com/@Dougsengineering:0/EMPV1.0:1 I will be posting more soon. I am adding all new content to Odysee and will be copying over my YouTube videos as well. I will not be posting new content to YouTube. Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D79E7B.6C2FFFD0] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel
I have accidentally reset my wrist watch with severe EMI! I figure my coherent energy Tesla coil (single frequency from a vacuum tube (two 811A short wave high power transmitting tubes generating 600 Watts of power) oscillator exposed me to about 10,000-20,000 Volts per meter E fields at 300 kHz for hours at a time while I played with it. It was my 9th grade science fair project. Really strange things happened within several feet of that thing. I was fascinated by the effects. That year my science teacher excused me from class and gave me an automatic “A” grade for the class. I think he did not want a kid in class that knew more than he did…. Maybe that explains why at 74 years old I can run many miles at 115 degrees in the desert with no problem! But at least I don’t get big and green when upset. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: Manny Barron Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 8:39:40 PM To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel That's the best reason! Although you may not be looking for it, maybe you'll stumble upon some new electromagnetic phenomena. Now that would be really cool ! About 30 years ago when I worked on Nuclear Hardening & Survivability (NH) for NAVSEA they had a testing facility that used very large capacitors to generate the high energy gamma dose that was focused on the components under test. The gamma dose is the first threat environment output that departs from a nuclear explosion, it propagates outward at the speed of light and can immediately damage the P-N junctions of microcircuits. This is not the EMP that eventually occurs later in time, but instead is a high energy gamma pulse, it's ionizing radiation. When the NAVSEA test facility released the energy from the capacitors the whole building shook and you just knew something violent was occurring during that very short burst. I wonder if you might generate a gamma dose, however big or small it may be. Just interesting stuff. Manny Barron EMC Engineer On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 3:04 PM doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kzdo2O4rtMnmIFqfnf9z-LMkl2riv3SHnJoSoaDIaog=6kE7emSoKRkaGwNsJlINNgkfVtC1NoCz2itC6Aa2ONs=> mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote: Because I love to play around with HV!! I have been fascinated with it for about 60 years now. Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] From: Manny Barron mailto:mbar...@ieee.org>> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 2:20 PM To: doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kzdo2O4rtMnmIFqfnf9z-LMkl2riv3SHnJoSoaDIaog=6kE7emSoKRkaGwNsJlINNgkfVtC1NoCz2itC6Aa2ONs=> mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>; EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org> mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org>> Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel Wow Doug, Very interesting science project. I'm curious, why are you doing this? Just because . . . or is there a specific purpose? I don't like HV, it scares me, especially when there are thick wires that can carry lots of current, pulsed or not. Well, except ESD, that's a coffee substitute in the morning to get your body moving. About 10 years ago we had to do MIL-STD-461 EMI tests on a HV military project inside a 5m semi-anechoic chamber. Because we had never tested a HV EUT before, a 20 page safety document became part of the test plan. Requirements: 1) only 2 test persons allowed in the chamber at any time and 1 must be AED certified, 2) the AED must be accessible within 1 minute, 3) a Sheppard's hook must be available immediately if needed, 4) special rubber gloves required inside the chamber, 5) special insulated shoes required for test personnel, 6) clear indicators that EUT is energized or not, 7) emergency Power Off switch must be easily accessible, plus numerous other miscellaneous HV safety requirements that I can't remember right now. Needless to say we were very cautious with everything we did during the test. No I don't like HV, it scares me. Good luck on your HV project. And be careful ! Manny Barron EMC Engineer On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 1:38 PM doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=JjCcui3j_EHfd5vCQSYXejlN2P08H13TN_EUitv-Qls=MiSWCeIK7VbWsCvfQD05SjUB5V1VTAW8VLpsL9V7ie8=> mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote: Hi Bill, The other day I got the power sup
Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel
Because I love to play around with HV!! I have been fascinated with it for about 60 years now. Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] From: Manny Barron Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 2:20 PM To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel Wow Doug, Very interesting science project. I'm curious, why are you doing this? Just because . . . or is there a specific purpose? I don't like HV, it scares me, especially when there are thick wires that can carry lots of current, pulsed or not. Well, except ESD, that's a coffee substitute in the morning to get your body moving. About 10 years ago we had to do MIL-STD-461 EMI tests on a HV military project inside a 5m semi-anechoic chamber. Because we had never tested a HV EUT before, a 20 page safety document became part of the test plan. Requirements: 1) only 2 test persons allowed in the chamber at any time and 1 must be AED certified, 2) the AED must be accessible within 1 minute, 3) a Sheppard's hook must be available immediately if needed, 4) special rubber gloves required inside the chamber, 5) special insulated shoes required for test personnel, 6) clear indicators that EUT is energized or not, 7) emergency Power Off switch must be easily accessible, plus numerous other miscellaneous HV safety requirements that I can't remember right now. Needless to say we were very cautious with everything we did during the test. No I don't like HV, it scares me. Good luck on your HV project. And be careful ! Manny Barron EMC Engineer On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 1:38 PM doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=JjCcui3j_EHfd5vCQSYXejlN2P08H13TN_EUitv-Qls=MiSWCeIK7VbWsCvfQD05SjUB5V1VTAW8VLpsL9V7ie8=> mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote: Hi Bill, The other day I got the power supply, my interface circuitry, the capacitor, and the right length gap all to start oscillating as a relaxation oscillator at about 10 Hz (30 lb capacitor is rated for 360 pulses per second). It sounds like a machine gun! My wife says I should take it easy with this lest the SWAT team shows up. The pulse width is a few hundred nanoseconds, estimated. Trying for a more accurate measurement. Today a roll of #8 wire should show up from Amazon for me to make a 10:1 current divider. The capacitor stands almost three feet high with a large insulator, 13,500 pf @ 50 kV. It weighs a lot, at least 30 lb and since I don’t want to pick it up by the insulator, I have to drag it across the floor as there is nothing to grab onto to lift it. I got a few of them as surplus, being thrown out, from UNLV. Their EE department must be fun! I have been playing around with high voltage stuff since about 15-16 years old. My experiments back then generated so much EMI that the feds showed up at my house while I was in school. I would like to have been a fly on wall while they were talking with my mother. This was back in 1962. Currently working on constructing a Marx generator. Parts are in from Amazon (resistors and capacitors). If you don’t see anymore posts, you will know what happened. I still feel like I am 16! Same wonderment at physics. My lifetime hero is Nicola Tesla I am also like a 16 year old in that at 74, I am running a few thousands of miles per year. Even at 110+ degrees in the summer! Doug [cid:17b89687e9f4ce8e91] From: Bill Owsley mailto:wdows...@yahoo.com>> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 12:13 To: doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=JjCcui3j_EHfd5vCQSYXejlN2P08H13TN_EUitv-Qls=MiSWCeIK7VbWsCvfQD05SjUB5V1VTAW8VLpsL9V7ie8=> mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel Typical lightning is about 300 million volts and 30 thousand amps. And if you are within several 10's of feet of a strike, it makes an impression. So a scaled down version is useful, like Doug's emp generator. Useful for imaginative coupling into various devices under test. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=jCRzTaNQorPZq38xZ6lIGQ=sp2-iZpIiLm92XEmcPXBIBJpjhPwJBr6W8MUBrfUEC0=iulfSxZNFywm7IvVze4oy1MTcH3xq_vR9a2ZQN0Zjys=> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 10:55 PM, doug emcesd.com<ht
Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel
Hi Bill, The other day I got the power supply, my interface circuitry, the capacitor, and the right length gap all to start oscillating as a relaxation oscillator at about 10 Hz (30 lb capacitor is rated for 360 pulses per second). It sounds like a machine gun! My wife says I should take it easy with this lest the SWAT team shows up. The pulse width is a few hundred nanoseconds, estimated. Trying for a more accurate measurement. Today a roll of #8 wire should show up from Amazon for me to make a 10:1 current divider. The capacitor stands almost three feet high with a large insulator, 13,500 pf @ 50 kV. It weighs a lot, at least 30 lb and since I don’t want to pick it up by the insulator, I have to drag it across the floor as there is nothing to grab onto to lift it. I got a few of them as surplus, being thrown out, from UNLV. Their EE department must be fun! I have been playing around with high voltage stuff since about 15-16 years old. My experiments back then generated so much EMI that the feds showed up at my house while I was in school. I would like to have been a fly on wall while they were talking with my mother. This was back in 1962. Currently working on constructing a Marx generator. Parts are in from Amazon (resistors and capacitors). If you don’t see anymore posts, you will know what happened. I still feel like I am 16! Same wonderment at physics. My lifetime hero is Nicola Tesla I am also like a 16 year old in that at 74, I am running a few thousands of miles per year. Even at 110+ degrees in the summer! Doug [cid:image001.jpg@01D79B46.C7707150] From: Bill Owsley Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 12:13 To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel Typical lightning is about 300 million volts and 30 thousand amps. And if you are within several 10's of feet of a strike, it makes an impression. So a scaled down version is useful, like Doug's emp generator. Useful for imaginative coupling into various devices under test. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=jCRzTaNQorPZq38xZ6lIGQ=sp2-iZpIiLm92XEmcPXBIBJpjhPwJBr6W8MUBrfUEC0=iulfSxZNFywm7IvVze4oy1MTcH3xq_vR9a2ZQN0Zjys=> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 10:55 PM, doug emcesd.com mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote: I am not sure of the peak power as the peak voltage and peak current are likely offset in time some. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org> Website: http://dsmith.org From: Manny Barron mailto:mbar...@ieee.org>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 5:05:50 PM To: doug emcesd.com mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>; EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org> mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org>> Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel Hi Doug, Uh, let's see ... 1,000 A x 15,000 V = 15,000,000 W. Not sure about the gain or directivity but that's alot of power! Hopefully it's just a pulse or two in the microsecond range. And hope you're in the desert. Very interesting indeed! Manny Barron EMC Engineer On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 4:50 PM doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=Mt-t26cldbDAs9JWcQmqSyxTZalpvFdvRFznV1zYiJo=> mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote: Hi All, I have created two new video channels over on Odysee. On https://Odysee.com/@Dougsengineering<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__Odysee.com_-40Dougsengineering=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=T7nCFm0nceIbZS02TODVqJX3_RzqmkcsuFG-dohJ6Dk=> I will be posting technical videos as well as copying over my YouTube technical videos there. New content will only be posted to Odysee though. I am currently working on a new video using my home built EMP generator. Nothing like a 1000 Ampere, 15 kV high voltage pulse to spice up the day! I am also working on a Marx generator to get extremely high voltage pulses as well. If you don’t hear anymore from me, I may have been vaporized. On https://Odysee.com/@Dougshealthandrunning<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__Odysee.com_-40Dougshealthandrunning=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=HX_bRwuehlJJFdUFi9Z-tdVKbEKV4Y8LR0VEj0erMqE=> the content has nothing to do with engineering but will contain my health related v
Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel
I am not sure of the peak power as the peak voltage and peak current are likely offset in time some. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: Manny Barron Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 5:05:50 PM To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel Hi Doug, Uh, let's see ... 1,000 A x 15,000 V = 15,000,000 W. Not sure about the gain or directivity but that's alot of power! Hopefully it's just a pulse or two in the microsecond range. And hope you're in the desert. Very interesting indeed! Manny Barron EMC Engineer On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 4:50 PM doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=Mt-t26cldbDAs9JWcQmqSyxTZalpvFdvRFznV1zYiJo=> mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote: Hi All, I have created two new video channels over on Odysee. On https://Odysee.com/@Dougsengineering<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__Odysee.com_-40Dougsengineering=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=T7nCFm0nceIbZS02TODVqJX3_RzqmkcsuFG-dohJ6Dk=> I will be posting technical videos as well as copying over my YouTube technical videos there. New content will only be posted to Odysee though. I am currently working on a new video using my home built EMP generator. Nothing like a 1000 Ampere, 15 kV high voltage pulse to spice up the day! I am also working on a Marx generator to get extremely high voltage pulses as well. If you don’t hear anymore from me, I may have been vaporized. On https://Odysee.com/@Dougshealthandrunning<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__Odysee.com_-40Dougshealthandrunning=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=HX_bRwuehlJJFdUFi9Z-tdVKbEKV4Y8LR0VEj0erMqE=> the content has nothing to do with engineering but will contain my health related videos, topics like diet, supplements, and running/exercise. (I am at about 1500 miles of running in 2021 so far at age 74, much of it at 110 degrees F in the Southern Nevada desert this summer.) Each channel now has one video with lots coming soon. Some of the engineering videos are snippets from the demonstrations of my seminars, including the virtual ones coming up shortly. Doug [cid:17b60db948f4ce8e91] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc-2Dpstc.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=ZmZ2vEmKoO4KIm2kpljaTrGCZNBEpySx5EJ7cR41r4g=> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc.ieee.org_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=ndz8TPVlE5aBfGmFxKsakyEoWHQtRSgwHpZDlez3c_8=> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=-O6uRX2ukTzfacrqcaVL3kshLp--VWj6v37HXNhWIJ4=> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_list.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=Y89mLQRpv6J1f95QAfld1LTjYEWP_lL7xr7k8ZzUppU=> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_listrules.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=p--0SDUuHmqlBnX0ExW6MDjrSyqtTsyt3msO1fM4fMI=> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org<mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> - --
Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel
It is a short pulse of a few hundreds of ns. I had to put 100 Ohms of resistance to get the pulse down to 100 Amps so I can measure it. The spark is MUCH more intense (sounds like a gun being fired) without the resistance and just limited by stray inductance. The peak current with the resistance in the circuit is early what I would expect where the resistance dominates the circuit impedance. 1000 Amperes is an estimate as I have no easy way to measure it directly. Somewhere from 500 A and up. The capacitor weighs about 30 lbs! By careful adjustment of the gap I can get it to become a relaxation oscillator. It sounds like a machine gun. My wife says I should keep it to a minimum lest the SWAT team shows up. My experiments have been known to adversely affect electronic gadgets, like my wristwatch and a camera. But if one really needs to know what a piece of equipment can take, this setup can do it. The pulse is far above what secondary lightning protectors can handle. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org From: Manny Barron Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 5:05:50 PM To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel Hi Doug, Uh, let's see ... 1,000 A x 15,000 V = 15,000,000 W. Not sure about the gain or directivity but that's alot of power! Hopefully it's just a pulse or two in the microsecond range. And hope you're in the desert. Very interesting indeed! Manny Barron EMC Engineer On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 4:50 PM doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=Mt-t26cldbDAs9JWcQmqSyxTZalpvFdvRFznV1zYiJo=> mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote: Hi All, I have created two new video channels over on Odysee. On https://Odysee.com/@Dougsengineering<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__Odysee.com_-40Dougsengineering=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=T7nCFm0nceIbZS02TODVqJX3_RzqmkcsuFG-dohJ6Dk=> I will be posting technical videos as well as copying over my YouTube technical videos there. New content will only be posted to Odysee though. I am currently working on a new video using my home built EMP generator. Nothing like a 1000 Ampere, 15 kV high voltage pulse to spice up the day! I am also working on a Marx generator to get extremely high voltage pulses as well. If you don’t hear anymore from me, I may have been vaporized. On https://Odysee.com/@Dougshealthandrunning<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__Odysee.com_-40Dougshealthandrunning=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=HX_bRwuehlJJFdUFi9Z-tdVKbEKV4Y8LR0VEj0erMqE=> the content has nothing to do with engineering but will contain my health related videos, topics like diet, supplements, and running/exercise. (I am at about 1500 miles of running in 2021 so far at age 74, much of it at 110 degrees F in the Southern Nevada desert this summer.) Each channel now has one video with lots coming soon. Some of the engineering videos are snippets from the demonstrations of my seminars, including the virtual ones coming up shortly. Doug [cid:17b60db948f4ce8e91] - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc-2Dpstc.html=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=ZmZ2vEmKoO4KIm2kpljaTrGCZNBEpySx5EJ7cR41r4g=> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc.ieee.org_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=ndz8TPVlE5aBfGmFxKsakyEoWHQtRSgwHpZDlez3c_8=> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=-O6uRX2ukTzfacrqcaVL3kshLp--VWj6v37HXNhWIJ4=> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://u
