subject:"\[Emc\-users\] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question"

On Thursday, March 10, 2011 09:23:17 AM Mark Wendt did opine:

 On 03/10/2011 12:51 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
  Peter Blodow wrote:
  I think it would be worth wile to build up a powerful lobby in the US
  to enforce decent power supply for everyone - what a shame for the
  most powerful and most technically oriented country in the world to
  discuss about how to get motors and machines running!
  
  The infrastructure changes that would be required are beyond belief.
  For instance, there is 3 phase
  7200 V power half a block away from me, but there is only one phase
  7200 V main running down
  my street, and it runs for at least half a mile down the major street,
  then branches into the side streets.
  So, all those houses and streets have ONLY single-phase high tension. 
  I can think of areas I've been
  where the high tension single phase feed goes for literally many miles
  down rural roads.
  
  In cities, there is often 3-phase high tension feeders near to every
  house, but even still, there is a HUGE
  amount of infrastructure that would have to be changed.
  
  So, poles would need to be replaced or at least have cross-arms added,
  all residential transformers in the country
  would have to be replaced, all service lead-ins would have to be
  changed from 3-wire to 4-wire, all
  residential meters would have to be replaced, all circuit breaker
  panels would have to be replaced.
  Then, you have to figure eventually replacing all major loads such as
  ovens, clothes dryers and
  air conditioners with 3-phase.
  
  My house has its own, personal 50 KVA transformer.  We have 200 A 240
  V service, so that
  is 48 KVA.  Can you imaging the industry that would have to develop to
  replace EVERY residential
  transformer in the WHOLE country?
  
  Few homes have any 3-phase loads unless they have serious home shops,
  so really the need for 3-phase
  power is not that big a problem, especially now that VFDs are
  available.
  
  
  Jon
 
 And the last thing we need in this country is more laws on the books
 telling us how we need to spend our money.
 
 Mark
 
Particularly when 9 out of 10 of them were passed to preserve some business 
model that's become obsolete because they want to maintain the status quo 
instead of innovating to stay competitive.

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Thursday, March 10, 2011 09:27:37 AM andy pugh did opine:

 On 10 March 2011 01:24, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:
  But that was a 20HP motor, running on 235V 3 phase, and drew 39
  amps/phase at rated power output. �So a 100 HP motor would have
  needed only 195 amps, not 330/phase.
 
 195A per phase on 3-phase input. Wouldn't it be 50% more on
 single-phase input? (Or would it be 3x as much?)

I don't have a mathematical basis, but it seems to me that to get that same 
100 horse out of a single phase, one would have to factor in two things, 
first is the higher operating slip angle of the single phase, which is 
commonly run at 1725-1750, or 3425-3450 revs, which alone doubles the heat 
losses in the rotor, compared to the 3 phase, which often runs at 1775 or 
3550 rpms, so its magnetic slip angle is less.  That, common sense says,  
has to translate into reduced heat losses in the rotor.

And secondarily, the 3 phase operates at the vector voltage per winding, 
which on modern 127 volt per leg circuits, is around 238-239 volts across 
each winding when wired delta.

The single phase would normally be operated on a balanced circuit for 254 
volts, 2 x the std 127.  All of which make a direct comparison a wee bit 
difficult, so about all that can be said is that the 3 phase, which 
normally operates at the lower slip angle with its more even magnetic field 
rotation, will be a few percentage points more efficient.  Couple that with 
the 3 phase is generally being operated at a bit less intensity of the peak 
field, heating from saturation effects on the iron is reduced.  All of this 
can be swamped by poor choices on the part of the maker, like using a wire 
gauge smaller to make it less costly for the copper, which allows a few 
pounds less iron to be used because the wire is physically smaller.

Carried to what I would call extremes and you wind up with that Ajax pump 
motor, still a 15 horse, but its cooling fan raises its output noise level 
by 50-60 db.  Sitting on the floor, plumbed in parallel to the much larger 
GE powered pump, switchable by enabling its disconnect, opening the 2 gate 
valves that isolated it, closing the main pumps gate valves and opening its 
disconnect.  Then we could break the unions and remove the off lined pump 
for service. All while remaining on the air.  The relay/breaker that 
controlled them was rated to handle both, but the individual disconnects 
were 50A/phase Heinman circuit breakers which turned out to be an 
expensive, very expensive, choice.

One of them failed open on just one phase, so the pump was single phased 
and within a second stopped  locked.  I was at the console at the time, 
recognized the sound of a single phased motor, and my hand had made it 
about halfway to the beam power off button before all hell broke loose and 
it got very dark, very fast.  No windows.  

The sudden stoppage of the coolant allowed the electron beam to burn 
through the collector bucket on the bottom of a $150,000 klystron.  That 
crowbarred the 20 kilovolt supply when the tube filled with steam  copper 
vapor, taking down the buildings 1200 amp 3 phase entrance breaker, and I 
expect that bump was seen at least 100 miles away.

The cure for that was a pair of 50 kilovolt vacuum relays, whose coils were 
wired across the 3 phases with the contacts in series with the 19.7 kv beam 
voltage, so that if any phase even drew a breath to sneeze, the klystrons 
were turned off, while an aux contact also sent an open to the GE AK-225 
main breaker for the high voltage.  That put a hell of a strain on the 
filter capacitors as the metering showed a pulse from the normal 20kv, up 
to nearly 35kv, but they held, and even if they failed shorted, it was a 
heck of a lot cheaper than another $150,000 4KM100LA klystron blown.

Yeah, I've 'played' with some moderately sized iron.  And I still envy 
Stuart. ;-)

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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Thursday, March 10, 2011 10:25:58 AM RogerN did opine:

 - Original Message -
 From: andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
 emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 4:59
 AM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

 On 10 March 2011 01:24, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:
  But that was a 20HP motor, running on 235V 3 phase, and drew 39
  amps/phase
  at rated power output. So a 100 HP motor would have needed only 195
  amps, not 330/phase.

 195A per phase on 3-phase input. Wouldn't it be 50% more on
 single-phase input? (Or would it be 3x as much?)

 3-phase amps X 1.732 (SqRt of 3) = 3 phase amps (not dealing with
 changes in power factor)

 Roger Neal

Wouldn't that be:
3-phase amps X 1.732 (SqRt of 3) = single phase amps?

But then the supply would also be scaled, from the 240 range to 252 due to 
the lack of the vector additions the 120 degree phase angle causes in the 3 
phase scenario.  I'm confused enough without that. ;-)

-- 
Cheers, Gene
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
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-- McCoy, Balance of Terror, stardate 1709.2

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-10 Thread andy pugh

On 10 March 2011 15:24, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:

 195A per phase on 3-phase input. Wouldn't it be 50% more on
 single-phase input? (Or would it be 3x as much?)

 I don't have a mathematical basis, but it seems to me that to get that same
 100 horse out of a single phase, one would have to factor in two things,

I think we are discussing different things.

I am saying that if a motor takes 200A per phase on 3 wires out of the
VFD and that power comes into the VFD on 2 wires, then the current in
the 2 wires will be more than 200A each.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Thursday, March 10, 2011 10:42:07 AM andy pugh did opine:

 On 10 March 2011 15:24, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:
  195A per phase on 3-phase input. Wouldn't it be 50% more on
  single-phase input? (Or would it be 3x as much?)
  
  I don't have a mathematical basis, but it seems to me that to get that
  same 100 horse out of a single phase, one would have to factor in two
  things,
 
 I think we are discussing different things.
 
 I am saying that if a motor takes 200A per phase on 3 wires out of the
 VFD and that power comes into the VFD on 2 wires, then the current in
 the 2 wires will be more than 200A each.

Bring in the VFD, and of course you are right.  The VFD may in fact have 
more amps per leg flowing but with careful design, can recover much of that 
which isn't actually used to turn the motor, I've seen that in the 
discussion so far.

Which leads me to believe that the VFD's enhanced efficiency would pay for 
itself in reduced power draw over time.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
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As Will Rogers would have said, There is no such things as a free 
variable.

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-10 Thread dave

On Wed, 2011-03-09 at 23:51 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
 Peter Blodow wrote:
 
  I think it would be worth wile to build up a powerful lobby in the US to 
  enforce decent power supply for everyone - what a shame for the most 
  powerful and most technically oriented country in the world to discuss 
  about how to get motors and machines running!
 The infrastructure changes that would be required are beyond belief.  
 For instance, there is 3 phase
 7200 V power half a block away from me, but there is only one phase 7200 
 V main running down
 my street, and it runs for at least half a mile down the major street, 
 then branches into the side streets.
 So, all those houses and streets have ONLY single-phase high tension.  I 
 can think of areas I've been
 where the high tension single phase feed goes for literally many miles 
 down rural roads.
 
 In cities, there is often 3-phase high tension feeders near to every 
 house, but even still, there is a HUGE
 amount of infrastructure that would have to be changed.
 
 So, poles would need to be replaced or at least have cross-arms added, 
 all residential transformers in the country
 would have to be replaced, all service lead-ins would have to be changed 
 from 3-wire to 4-wire, all
 residential meters would have to be replaced, all circuit breaker panels 
 would have to be replaced.
 Then, you have to figure eventually replacing all major loads such as 
 ovens, clothes dryers and
 air conditioners with 3-phase.
 
 My house has its own, personal 50 KVA transformer.  We have 200 A 240 V 
 service, so that
 is 48 KVA.  Can you imaging the industry that would have to develop to 
 replace EVERY residential
 transformer in the WHOLE country?
 
 Few homes have any 3-phase loads unless they have serious home shops, so 
 really the need for 3-phase
 power is not that big a problem, especially now that VFDs are available.
 
 
 Jon

I find it interesting that you have a 50 KVA transformer for your house,
I had the same thing growing up at Coulee. Dad said that if we turned on
everything in the house we could actually draw the whole 50 KVA. 'course
at that time we were probably paying less than 5 mils/KWH. Everything
was electric; oh duh!

Dave
 
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-10 Thread Jon Elson

andy pugh wrote:
 On 10 March 2011 01:24, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:

   
 But that was a 20HP motor, running on 235V 3 phase, and drew 39 amps/phase
 at rated power output.  So a 100 HP motor would have needed only 195 amps,
 not 330/phase.
 

 195A per phase on 3-phase input. Wouldn't it be 50% more on
 single-phase input? (Or would it be 3x as much?)

   
If you take line current on a 3-phase motor and multiply by 1.732 
(square root of 3)
you get pretty close.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-10 Thread Jon Elson

andy pugh wrote:
 I think we are discussing different things.

 I am saying that if a motor takes 200A per phase on 3 wires out of the
 VFD and that power comes into the VFD on 2 wires, then the current in
 the 2 wires will be more than 200A each.
   
OK, that is a whole different thing.  Induction motors draw huge 
inductive currents, worse
when idling, better when at full load, but still a lot.

So motor amps time motor volts does NOT equal Watts drawn from the mains.
The VFD recirculates this reactive current, and draws a much better 
power factor
from the mains.  So, in fact, motors running at light load will draw 
MUCH less current from the
mains when run via a VFD!  This is a significant reason industrial users 
use VFDs, it keeps them from getting in trouble with the utility, or 
having to install a huge phase correction bank with automatic controls.

At full load, then what you say will be true.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-10 Thread Jon Elson

gene heskett wrote:


 Bring in the VFD, and of course you are right.  The VFD may in fact have 
 more amps per leg flowing but with careful design, can recover much of that 
 which isn't actually used to turn the motor, I've seen that in the 
 discussion so far.

 Which leads me to believe that the VFD's enhanced efficiency would pay for 
 itself in reduced power draw over time.

   
No, the VFD does not reduce POWER consumption as long as the motor is 
run at rated speed.
You can reduce power consumption quite a but by running fans and pumps 
at reduced speed, instead
of using louvers and valves to throttle the flow.

Reducing line current is not the same thing as reducing POWER.  
Induction motors can often
draw current close to the rating all the way from idle to full load, but 
the power drawn varies,
due to the changing phase angle.  An inductor plugged into the wall 
socket may draw 15 A of reactive current, but since it is at 90 degrees 
to the voltage, there is no real power, so the electric meter doesn't 
register it.  It only
reads real power, ie. current that is IN PHASE with the voltage.

Now, if your electric utility bills you for power factor, that is an 
entirely different situation, and
all large power consumers are either billed or periodically audited for 
power factor and peak usage.
Our university is billed at a flat rate for an entire year based on the 
highest 15 minute period of the
previous year!  Thus, peak load control is a big issue, and saves them 
millions of Dollars a year.
I don't know what they do about power factor, but I'm sure that is 
something they control, also.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-10 Thread RogerN

- Original Message - 
From: gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

 On Thursday, March 10, 2011 10:25:58 AM RogerN did opine:

 - Original Message -
 From: andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
 emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 4:59
 AM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

 On 10 March 2011 01:24, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:
  But that was a 20HP motor, running on 235V 3 phase, and drew 39
  amps/phase
  at rated power output. So a 100 HP motor would have needed only 195
  amps, not 330/phase.

 195A per phase on 3-phase input. Wouldn't it be 50% more on
 single-phase input? (Or would it be 3x as much?)

 3-phase amps X 1.732 (SqRt of 3) = 3 phase amps (not dealing with
 changes in power factor)

 Roger Neal

 Wouldn't that be:
 3-phase amps X 1.732 (SqRt of 3) = single phase amps?

 But then the supply would also be scaled, from the 240 range to 252 due to
 the lack of the vector additions the 120 degree phase angle causes in the 
 3
 phase scenario.  I'm confused enough without that. ;-)

 -- 
 Cheers, Gene

Oops, yeah, I meant single phase.

I believe the formula for electrical horsepower would be something like 
volts X amps (X 1.732 for 3 phase)X power factor X efficiency / 746.

Roger Neal

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-10 Thread Dave

I thought I would throw in my two cents also...

I have a home built rotary phase converter based on a 10 hp 200/400 volt 
3 phase motor.   Due to the odd nameplate voltage (for the US), the 
motor was very cheap to purchase.

I run a variety of machines off this phase converter from time to time.  
The largest is a 10 hp 3 phase air compressor.   To avoid overheating 
the compressor motor due to phase inbalances,
I simply turned the cut out pressure down from 175 psi to 150 psi.

 From time to time I need to test motors and drives.   Running 3 phase 
input, 240 volt AC drives off the phase converter has never been a problem.

I once had to setup a new Siemens 7.5 KW 460 volt 611U servo drive so it 
could operate a unique Italian servo motor.   I had a 7.5 KVA 480 to 240 
transformer.So I ran the phase converter
output into the 240 volt side of the transformer and boosted the voltage 
up to about 480-500 volts.   The Siemens drive was very happy running 
off the phase converted, and transformed AC power.

One more thing;A real 5 hp 240 volt single phase motors draw about 
24-27 amps.When I am running the 10 hp compressor off the phase 
converter,
the input current to the phase converter peaks at about 50 amps as the 
pressure builds.I have a 100 amp feed into my garage and even with 
the phase converter and other machines running,
I have never tripped the 100 amp breaker that feeds the shop.

Having a phase converter is very handy.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-09 Thread andy pugh

On 9 March 2011 02:54, Clint Washburn cl...@clintandheidi.com wrote:
 What would be the best way to get the voltage up to 400v DC?

You can use a voltage doubler. I have a 700VDC PSU I made which I was
going to make an Arduino-controlled VFD out of.

But then I got scared, and bought one instead.

The circuit is the Delon topology here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_doubler but connected directly
across 230V single phase mains.

I imagine this is what the voltage-increasing single-to-three-phase
inverters do.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-09 Thread Steve Stallings

I would recommend against putting 240 VAC into a transformer
winding originally designed for 120 VAC. While it would seem
that a transformer is a simple ratio device, this assumption
falls apart if the iron core cannot support the resulting
magnetic flux density. Too little iron and it will saturate.
When this happens the winding begins to approximate a
very small resistance, almost a short circuit.

Using a transformer for voltages lower than rated is generally
OK as is running them in reverse. The ratio may prove
to be slightly off because the manufacturer may have
adjusted the stated ratio to compensate for the losses in
the windings but this is typically only a few percent.

Steve Stallings 

 -Original Message-
 From: Kirk Wallace [mailto:kwall...@wallacecompany.com] 
 Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 2:21 AM
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question
 
 On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 18:52 -0800, Clint Washburn wrote:
  Are there any VFD's you recommend that would support such a motor?
  
  -Original Message-
  From: Kirk Wallace [mailto:kwall...@wallacecompany.com]
  Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:00 AM
  To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
  Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question
  
  On Mon, 2011-03-07 at 22:03 -0800, Clint Washburn wrote:
   I am in the process of converting my 1978 Hitachi Seiki 
 CNC lathe to EMC.
   It currently has a 7.5 KW dc motor that used to be 
 powered by FUJI 
   SCR
 ... snip
 
 It might be hard to find a VFD rated higher than a few HP 
 that can run on 240VAC input. 
 http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Drives/GS
 2_%28115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29
 Short URL: http://alturl.com/qhdpo 
 
 The higher HP drives seem to need 460VAC. I bought a VFD from 
 eBay and forgot to check the input voltage. It turned out to 
 be a 460VAC unit. I have a left over 240 to 120 transformer 
 that I now have 240 feeding the 120 end, and get 480 out the 
 other. The VFD works fine on this, but the transformer is 
 quite a bit bigger and heavier than the VFD. My guess is that 
 if you scan eBay for a 10 HP VFD that you will only find 
 units that need 460VAC. A transformer could fix this, but it 
 would need to be big and probably expensive. 10 HP would need 
 around 35Amps at 240 so keep this in mind too. I suppose a 
 40Amp dryer outlet would work. You will most likely need a 
 mains filter too.
 
 I kind of like Jon's idea of trying to keep the DC motor. I 
 was thinking a golf cart driver might work, but I think the 
 output voltage will be too low. Maybe an EV controller?
 http://www.evsource.com/tls_controllers.php 
 
 These seem too expensive though. Maybe AC is the way to go.
 
 --
 Kirk Wallace
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
 California, USA
 
 
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-09 Thread RogerN

For what it's worth, I have a lathe with a 7.5HP motor and used a 10HP 
Hitachi VFD like this:

http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drives/AC+Drives/Variable+Torque+VFD/X200-075LFU.html?osCsid=04e47b5d74f9275e98232b165be36c89

The Hitachi website gives directions on using the larger drives with single 
phase input.  You are supposed to upsize the drive by 1.732 but I went with 
10HP because I figured it would do what I needed, drives are generally rated 
for 1.5 X rated for a limited time.  The weak link is the input rectifiers, 
you have to get all the amps in through single phase, that's where the 1.732 
comes from.  So far I haven't been able to push it hard enough to have any 
problems.

One time I let the lathe just idle, not cutting anything, the VFD showed 13A 
3 phase to the motor, the input to the drive was ~5A single phase, the VFD 
handles the power factor problems and draws closer to true power from the 
line.

Roger Neal


- Original Message - 
From: Clint Washburn cl...@clintandheidi.com
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question


 Ted,

 What kind of motor did you go with and what model of vfd do you use? Also 
 I have not yet purchased a drive yet I am weighing my options.  I am 
 thinking of 5-7.5 hp. With the price some of the vfds are going for I 
 would pay several times over what I paid for the lathe.

 Thanks,
 Clint

 On Mar 8, 2011, at 8:54 AM, Ted Hyde laser...@gmail.com wrote:

 emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
 Message: 5
 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:03:45 -0800
 From: Clint Washburncl...@clintandheidi.com
 Subject: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question
 To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\)'
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Message-ID:00bd01cbdd56$99811290$cc8337b0$@com
 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii

 I am in the process of converting my 1978 Hitachi Seiki CNC lathe to 
 EMC.
 It currently has a 7.5 KW dc motor that used to be powered by FUJI SCR
 drive.  My first problem my house does not have 3 phase power.  I am 
 having
 to work around this issue with my whole retrofit.  I wish to convert 
 this to
 a 3 phase AC spindle.  What VFD's are people having success with as a
 spindle drive with single phase power?  Is it realistic to have a 10 hp 
 3
 phase spindle on single phase power?  or will I have to go with a 
 spindle
 motor closer to around 7.5hp instead?  What is everyone's input on this?

 Clint Washburn

 Clint - I converted my Tsugami lathe (also 7.5Hp DC spindle) over to a
 5hp AC spindle - and for testing was running on single phase 220. My AB
 VFD would only get the motor up to about 70% speed (2200rpm) before
 going into Bus Undervolt Fault - I was running this directly from the
 front panel of the VFD without EMC intervention at the time, so there
 should have been little to no regen or accel/decel problems. The spindle
 was also under no load (from cutting) - so under a cut scenario, I'd
 expect the unit to fault just as soon as the insert entered the cut. The
 unit functions just fine under 3phase power, of course.
 It may be worthwhile to note that although many VFDs with 3 phase input
 are built on a simple bridge-cap system, how they check the line-line
 voltage may differ, so going leg R-T instead of R-S (for example) may
 get you lucky. Alternatively, you may look at a separate DC supply, and
 feed the ?440 into the DC bus input on your VFDassuming your VFD
 supports it. I can do this on my AB, apparently. I recall Rexroth
 (Bosch) did this with a lot of their high end servo and spindle drives,
 so did Mitsu - one central DC supply, with drives that connected to the
 buss, instead of all AC input units.
 My instinct based only one one experience says you're going to have a
 challenge getting that 10hp spooled up on single phase.

 BTW - where did you get a 208vac 10hp drive? By the time you get higher
 than 5hp, most are wanting 380-480 inputor you have to mortgage the
 house. :-)

 Best wishes,
 Ted.

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[Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-09 Thread Ted Hyde

Clint - I have an older Allen Bradley 1336S drive (courtesy of ebay) -
the collection of 5hp units I got without operator panels, and then
finding a panel, probably ran me about $150. I don't see those drives
at that price ($40 each!) on ebay currently. The motor was a 5hp
Craigslist find, about $60. I added a new pulley and bushing for
another $100. My power service is in a medium-industrial area, and
sits pretty stable at 212 VAC, +/- 1v variance leg-leg, with a
recorded typical of less than 5% variance. My mazak says it's at 60.2
Hz - so it's right on the money for USA domestic service. We are on a
recent (last 3 years) installed site transformer, and one of only two
customers on it.

I cut typically aluminum and polymers, and the load meter has always
been less than 50% with the exception of accel and decel. Even in a
mild steel or stainless cut, 0.070 engagement, was only 40% loaded. I
have inserts that will allow 200thou DOC, but I'm not expecting  to
use that capacity. My limiting factor really isn't power for my
applications, it's surface speed; I top out around 3500 RPM now, and
while that's more than sufficient for aluminum at 2, it gets kind of
slow at 1/4.

I do not currently employ an external resistor, although I should. EMC
controls the external PID loop, while the drive takes care of the
inner accel/decel loop - ie. the drive's accel/decel is faster than
EMC and rarely takes precedence, but is there in case EMC (or I)
command it to do something stupid. The spindle has a full A/B/Z
encoder on it for feedback. It is NOT run in a tight servo-loop, just
a relaxed at-speed loop. It's fine for threading straight, but needs
a little tightening for tapers still. (change in surface speed
related).

I pulley'ed up the motor as large as I can go (given physical space
restrictions) - the 3500 is actually more than what the lathe
originally did (2880 to 3000) on it's DC motor, so I guess I should be
happy. The motor I have on there now has class-H insulation, so it's
technically not inverter-grade -  thus I'm not going to overclock the
VFD - it's running at 60Hz. Many VFDs you can freq-up to 100 or even
120Hz, but consensus is that you really Should have an inverter-duty
motor for that. Aside from lucky finds, I'd look at either
surpluscenter.com or automationdirect.com for retail units -
probably cost as much to ship as they do to buy - a 5hp motor will
weigh about 151 lbs - just enough when crated to be over UPS small
package, so it goes by truck. However you could still have yourself a
decent motor for about $500. I understand the retrofit cost versus the
iron cost - I paid $500 for my Tsugami complete, but $1200 to truck
it, and have probably sunk only an additional $2k of gear into it.
However, exclusive of labor, it has already paid for itself. I have no
doubt my hobby lathe will continue to be such until the day it is
retired - it's unlikely it would ever be a completed project - one
more bell or whistle to add to it, a software upgrade etc.

If you can find a servo drive for that size of motor, I'd recommend it
- if you think C-Axis work will be in your future. You can use a VFD
to work as a servo drive (hack, cough. disclaimer), but the challenge
is that most VFD's have a built in accel/decel profile that has a
minimum setting of 0.1 seconds, not 0 seconds or disabled.  So
although EMC could control the servo loop, it will always have that
0.1 sec (*2) delay. Which won't get you consistent or repeatable
results in absolute degrees. I originally had a VFD on my turret
toolchange motor, and although it would work, it took a lot of effort
and multiple gear changes to get it there. Even then, if it went from
one tool to a neighboring tool (like #3 to #4) it would often hunt for
a few seconds before it was close enough to let the turret lock again.
There is now a real servo with gearhead and a real servo drive on
there and the difference is night and day.

I don't have a C axis going on my unit yet, but I plan on following
what Tsugami did in the past - the headstock has provisions for
clutching in and out a secondary servo for fine positioning. Since the
mech is already there, I just have to find a suitable servo for it.

One final caveat - the firmware in my AB spindle drive is set for
forward run only - however I haven't used a tool that I need to run
backwards.

Ted.

- Original Message -
From: Clint Washburn cl...@clintandheidi.com
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question


 Ted,

 What kind of motor did you go with and what model of vfd do you use? Also
 I have not yet purchased a drive yet I am weighing my options.  I am
 thinking of 5-7.5 hp. With the price some of the vfds are going for I
 would pay several times over what I paid for the lathe.

 Thanks,
 Clint

Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-09 Thread Kirk Wallace

On Wed, 2011-03-09 at 06:48 -0500, Steve Stallings wrote:
... snip
 Using a transformer for voltages lower than rated is generally
 OK as is running them in reverse. The ratio may prove
 to be slightly off because the manufacturer may have
 adjusted the stated ratio to compensate for the losses in
 the windings but this is typically only a few percent.
 
 Steve Stallings 

Good point. My setup was a jury rig with a low load, and I was tending
to keep an eye on voltages, current and temperatures. I suppose if I
were to put this into a system for normal use, I should verify that the
core will never saturate. Thanks for the reminder.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

Kirk Wallace wrote:

It might be hard to find a VFD rated higher than a few HP that can run
on 240VAC input.
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29

Short URL: http://alturl.com/qhdpo

I am running an 11 KW Toshiba VFD on 240 single-phase, and it is
perfectly happy. A few models have phase loss
detection, and will fault if they don't have all three phases. Most
under 10 Hp don't seem to have that problem.
You do need to derate the drive for single phase, if it is not designed
for it. But, remember, these drives are designed to run inside cabinets
at 40 C, 20/7 for 10 years or so. That is not typical home shop duty,
so the drive gets a big break by not running all the time at full load.
The higher HP drives seem to need 460VAC. I bought a VFD from eBay and
No, there are drives up to 100 HP for 240 V supply. These will cost a
FORTUNE, even on eBay. The 480 V drives have transistors rated for half
the current and twice the voltage, and they are a lot cheaper. Most
industrial sites with 100 Hp motors have 480 power. The current draw of
a 100 Hp motor on 240 V is about 330 A per line! Yikes, the transistors
must be the size of a brick!

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-09 Thread dave

On Wed, 2011-03-09 at 08:32 -0800, Kirk Wallace wrote:
 On Wed, 2011-03-09 at 06:48 -0500, Steve Stallings wrote:
 ... snip
  Using a transformer for voltages lower than rated is generally
  OK as is running them in reverse. The ratio may prove
  to be slightly off because the manufacturer may have
  adjusted the stated ratio to compensate for the losses in
  the windings but this is typically only a few percent.
  
  Steve Stallings 
 
 Good point. My setup was a jury rig with a low load, and I was tending
 to keep an eye on voltages, current and temperatures. I suppose if I
 were to put this into a system for normal use, I should verify that the
 core will never saturate. Thanks for the reminder.

Indeed a good reminder. I knew that kind of thing when, in the 6th
grade, I was winding transformers but I had kinda forgotten about that;
and a bunch of other things. 

Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-09 Thread dave

On Wed, 2011-03-09 at 11:12 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
Kirk Wallace wrote:

Short URL: http://alturl.com/qhdpo

Just think about the heat sink, even in switching mode. ;-)

Dave

Jon

Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-09 Thread Kirk Wallace

On Wed, 2011-03-09 at 11:12 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
 Kirk Wallace wrote:
 
  It might be hard to find a VFD rated higher than a few HP that can run
  on 240VAC input. 
  http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29
   
  Short URL: http://alturl.com/qhdpo 
 

 I am running an 11 KW Toshiba VFD on 240 single-phase, and it is 
 perfectly happy.  A few models have phase loss
 detection, and will fault if they don't have all three phases.  Most 

I was just going by the data on the GS2 datasheet, and AssUMeing that
their product line would be typical. With a little more insight I now
realize my assumption is wrong. My bad. I'm really not very good beyond
3 HP. I'm looking forward to see how this story ends.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-09 Thread Peter Blodow

Kirk Wallace schrieb:
 I'm looking forward to see how this story ends.
   

Gentlemen,

as I mentioned before, telling from the (for me) amazingly immense 
response to this topic (which actually has nothing to do with emc2), I 
see a tremendous need for decent power supply in the US, probably 
especially on the countryside. I mailed to this list about a year ago 
that here in Germany (and in most of Europe), every house, new built or 
less than 30 to 40 years old, has a 3 phase electric supply with at 
least 3 x 50 amps main fuse and at least 3 x 35 amps selective fuse per 
inhabitant family in front of the measuring device. That means a 
capability of some 50 kW three phase per house.

You can't have it any else, not even if you try, it's in the basic 
conditions of the suppliers. If you apply for a building license at the 
local administration to erect a new house you can't help getting at 
least this type of electric supply line just like public water supply 
and sewage disposal. So, I never had any problem running large motors 
like e.g. my 10 kW circular saw for firewood cutting, welding equipment 
etc. For household purposes, the three 400 V phases are usually split 
into three 230 V, 16 amps circuits, each one leg grounded,  after the 
electric counter. This has the benefit that upon failure of one or two 
phases, there will be no complete black-out in the house. Even small 
appartments have more than one phase supply to benefit from this black 
out protection. Without this stable infrastructure, the booming solar 
panels on very many houses couldn't feed their energy into the public 
supply net.

I think it would be worth wile to build up a powerful lobby in the US to 
enforce decent power supply for everyone - what a shame for the most 
powerful and most technically oriented country in the world to discuss 
about how to get motors and machines running! Why not write letters to 
your representatives instead of discussing weird solutions with lots of 
condensers, inductors, VFD's and so on if there are very simple, 
straightforward methods to power a machine? In virtually every country 
in the world electrical power is produced, transported and distributed 
as three-phase-current, also in the US, because this is the most 
efficient way.  Why not down to the very customer? Exert pressure on 
those representatives and your suppling companies!

VFD's should only be used when varying frequency is desired and to 
convert single phase to three phase current on a low level base, say 
below 1 kW, if a three phase supply doesn't seem economical. That's what 
they are made for. Analyzing costs, a decent three phase power supply 
line must be cheaper and much more reliable than a VFD.

Peter Blodow



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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-09 Thread andy pugh

On 9 March 2011 22:34, Peter Blodow p.blo...@dreki.de wrote:

  I mailed to this list about a year ago
 that here in Germany (and in most of Europe), every house, new built or
 less than 30 to 40 years old, has a 3 phase electric supply

Not in the UK, more's the pity. If you want three phase you need to
pay thousands of pounds. (or tens of thousands if you are any distance
from the other phases)

-- 
atp
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Wednesday, March 09, 2011 08:02:40 PM Jon Elson did opine:

 Kirk Wallace wrote:
  It might be hard to find a VFD rated higher than a few HP that can run
  on 240VAC input.
  http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115
  _-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29 Short URL:
  http://alturl.com/qhdpo
 
 I am running an 11 KW Toshiba VFD on 240 single-phase, and it is
 perfectly happy.  A few models have phase loss
 detection, and will fault if they don't have all three phases.  Most
 under 10 Hp don't seem to have that problem.
 You do need to derate the drive for single phase, if it is not designed
 for it.  But, remember, these drives are designed to run inside cabinets
 at 40 C, 20/7 for 10 years or so.  That is not typical home shop duty,
 so the drive gets a big break by not running all the time at full load.
 
  The higher HP drives seem to need 460VAC. I bought a VFD from eBay and
 
 No, there are drives up to 100 HP for 240 V supply.  These will cost a
 FORTUNE, even on eBay.  The 480 V drives have transistors rated for half
 the current and twice the voltage, and they are a lot cheaper.  Most
 industrial sites with 100 Hp motors have 480 power.  The current draw of
 a 100 Hp motor on 240 V is about 330 A per line!  Yikes, the transistors
 must be the size of a brick!
 
 
 Jon

I am wondering where you got those figures Jon?

At one tv station, KNXE, channel 19 NE of Norfolk NE, the klystrons coolant 
was cooled by a radiator about 4 feet wide, a foot thick and about 10 feet 
long, which had a quad of 16 torrington wheels on a long shaft, each wheel 
a good foot wide, turned by a 3 phase 220 volt 20 HP rated electric motor 
to pull cooling air through it.

The FLA according to the nameplate was 39 amps/phase, and we adjusted 
pulley sizes seasonally to keep the motor running within a couple of amps 
of that 39/phase.  Warmer air weighs less, so we could up the motor pulley 
about an inch in the summer, but had to drop it back come cooler weather 
which made it denser.  One morning in the spring after I had put the bigger 
pulley on the motor, the exit louver failed to open, the honeywell modutrol 
motor had failed.  It ripped the lead anchored lag bolts, about 36 of them, 
right out of the 12 thick cement blocks surrounding that 4x8 foot louver 
and blew it out in the back yard about 6 feet.  That was fun putting that 
back in while 50+ mph hot air was coming out.  Lots of heavy timber 
cribbing involved.

But that was a 20HP motor, running on 235V 3 phase, and drew 39 amps/phase 
at rated power output.  So a 100 HP motor would have needed only 195 amps, 
not 330/phase.  That much heat differential has got to make smoke I'd 
think.

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

Peter Blodow wrote:

 I think it would be worth wile to build up a powerful lobby in the US to 
 enforce decent power supply for everyone - what a shame for the most 
 powerful and most technically oriented country in the world to discuss 
 about how to get motors and machines running!
The infrastructure changes that would be required are beyond belief.  
For instance, there is 3 phase
7200 V power half a block away from me, but there is only one phase 7200 
V main running down
my street, and it runs for at least half a mile down the major street, 
then branches into the side streets.
So, all those houses and streets have ONLY single-phase high tension.  I 
can think of areas I've been
where the high tension single phase feed goes for literally many miles 
down rural roads.

In cities, there is often 3-phase high tension feeders near to every 
house, but even still, there is a HUGE
amount of infrastructure that would have to be changed.

So, poles would need to be replaced or at least have cross-arms added, 
all residential transformers in the country
would have to be replaced, all service lead-ins would have to be changed 
from 3-wire to 4-wire, all
residential meters would have to be replaced, all circuit breaker panels 
would have to be replaced.
Then, you have to figure eventually replacing all major loads such as 
ovens, clothes dryers and
air conditioners with 3-phase.

My house has its own, personal 50 KVA transformer.  We have 200 A 240 V 
service, so that
is 48 KVA.  Can you imaging the industry that would have to develop to 
replace EVERY residential
transformer in the WHOLE country?

Few homes have any 3-phase loads unless they have serious home shops, so 
really the need for 3-phase
power is not that big a problem, especially now that VFDs are available.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

Peter Blodow wrote:
 VFD's should only be used when varying frequency is desired and to 
 convert single phase to three phase current on a low level base, say 
 below 1 kW, if a three phase supply doesn't seem economical. That's what 
 they are made for. Analyzing costs, a decent three phase power supply 
 line must be cheaper and much more reliable than a VFD.
   
Where I work, every motor over maybe 1 Hp is run on a VFD, and they have 
230 and 480 V 3-phase
power available in all mechanical rooms.  Mostly for energy reduction by 
variable speed, but it also
helps their power factor.  They have WALLS of VFDs in the equipment rooms.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

gene heskett wrote:
 On Wednesday, March 09, 2011 08:02:40 PM Jon Elson did opine:

   
   The current draw of
 a 100 Hp motor on 240 V is about 330 A per line!  Yikes, the transistors
 must be the size of a brick!


 Jon
 

 I am wondering where you got those figures Jon?
   
OK, I was extrapolating from a 1 Hp Bridgeport motor, which is rated at 
3.3 A at 240 V.  Obviously, there is an efficiency scaling factor I 
didn't take into account for larger motors.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-09 Thread Igor Chudov

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:57 PM, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote:

 gene heskett wrote:
  On Wednesday, March 09, 2011 08:02:40 PM Jon Elson did opine:   The
 current draw of
  a 100 Hp motor on 240 V is about 330 A per line!  Yikes, the transistors
  must be the size of a brick!
 
  I am wondering where you got those figures Jon?
 
 OK, I was extrapolating from a 1 Hp Bridgeport motor, which is rated at
 3.3 A at 240 V.  Obviously, there is an efficiency scaling factor I
 didn't take into account for larger motors.


Look at this baby:

http://goo.gl/QBuc1

100 HP motor by Baldor

They say it takes 224 amps at 230v.

i
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-09 Thread Kirk Wallace

On Thu, 2011-03-10 at 00:09 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
... snip
 Look at this baby:
 
 http://goo.gl/QBuc1
 
 100 HP motor by Baldor
 
 They say it takes 224 amps at 230v.
 
 i

This one is cheaper :)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=10-1977catname=electric 

but runs 460V. I think Gene needs one for his mill.

Even better:
http://www.powerzoneequipment.com/inventory_item.asp?StockNo=53388Description=1000+HP+Electric+Motor+-+Allis+Chalmers
 
Short URL: http://alturl.com/ynqai 

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California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Thursday, March 10, 2011 01:13:26 AM Jon Elson did opine:

 gene heskett wrote:
  On Wednesday, March 09, 2011 08:02:40 PM Jon Elson did opine:
The current draw of
  
  a 100 Hp motor on 240 V is about 330 A per line!  Yikes, the
  transistors must be the size of a brick!
  
  
  Jon
  
  I am wondering where you got those figures Jon?
 
 OK, I was extrapolating from a 1 Hp Bridgeport motor, which is rated at
 3.3 A at 240 V.  Obviously, there is an efficiency scaling factor I
 didn't take into account for larger motors.
 
 Jon
 
I don't know as I'd say it was obvious, but in comparison to a 120 volt 1/4 
horse single phase capacitor start, which on most nameplates draws about 
4.6 amps for that 1/4 horse, there must be an efficiency of scale that is 
not directly related to the single phase vs 3 phase condition.  That is a 
big hit all by itself.

The motor in question did not get so warm that you could not rest your hand 
on it at the end of a 19 hour broadcast day unless you had sensitive hands.  
At one point, while fighting with the linkage timing of one of those 
modutrol motors, I actually sat on it, 7 feet up in the air, for about 45 
minutes while attempting to adjust the linkage to get a quasi-linear 
response in the air flow allowed so the coolant didn't get too cold and 
viscous to flow through those $150,000 klystrons, who have a very picky 
appetite when you already have a 25% (absolute max 30% else it gets too 
stiff to pump well) mix of pure, technical grade E-glycol in the system, 
and its 15F below the freezing point of that mix on the other side of the 
wall, so we have to restrict the airflow under those conditions to keep it 
flowing well.  We often left the pumps running all night with the louvers 
closed as the pumping losses kept it up to about 80F when the blowers were 
off.  With nearly 200 kw worth of heat, and a 250 gallon storage tank, we 
could apply beam power and open the louvers with the same signal, the 
louvers would start to open and open too fast so the coolant dropped about 
60F, then as the louvers got some feedback and closed to just a crack, and 
in about an hour it would get back up to about 65F in the tank.  This is 
HVAC tech, and it is not well publicized or taught, that a multivane louver 
flows about 50% of is max flow, when only opened about 8%, so you normally 
adjust the arms on the modutrol so that the off position is pointed 
directly down the connecting rod to the louvers lever, which is at that 
point nearly 90 degrees to the rod.  So the first 10 degrees of modutrol 
motion only opens the louver 1 or 2%, then at the other end of the travel, 
wide open, the louver arm should point pretty close to straight down the 
coupling rod so the last 10% of the modutrol's motion takes the louver from 
about 30% open to wide open.

Anything less than that setup, the temps will overshoot and the whole thing 
oscillates at about one cycle every 2 to 3 minutes since the modutrols take 
90 seconds to run end to end.

Your trivia lesson for today. ;)

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Thursday, March 10, 2011 01:49:45 AM Igor Chudov did opine:

 On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:57 PM, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com 
wrote:
  gene heskett wrote:
   On Wednesday, March 09, 2011 08:02:40 PM Jon Elson did opine:  
   The
  
  current draw of
  
   a 100 Hp motor on 240 V is about 330 A per line!  Yikes, the
   transistors must be the size of a brick!
   
   I am wondering where you got those figures Jon?
  
  OK, I was extrapolating from a 1 Hp Bridgeport motor, which is rated
  at 3.3 A at 240 V.  Obviously, there is an efficiency scaling factor
  I didn't take into account for larger motors.
 
 Look at this baby:
 
 http://goo.gl/QBuc1
 
 100 HP motor by Baldor
 
 They say it takes 224 amps at 230v.
 
And my guess is that it is wasting some of that, note the ducted fan on the 
back end, and all the fins for cooling that the fan is directing air over.

That 20hp I'm talking about was pretty much conduction cooled.  No fan on 
the back or fins.  Its been a long time but I'd guess that 20 weighed 400+ 
lbs.  Bottom line is its probably quieter than an Ajax, who carried the 
compact to extremes.  The water/coolant pump was a 15hp, and we had 2, one 
a nice quiet GE motor, the other, same rated power but heavily fan cooled 
and its running noise level was 60 db louder than the GE.  So when we 
needed to put seals etc in the GE, we busted a gut because OSHA would never 
have allowed us in the same room with that Ajax without some decent gun 
muffs.  The ajax was strictly an emergency use only pump.  I'd guess that 
Ajax weighed under 200 lbs, tiny, IMO too tiny.

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Thursday, March 10, 2011 02:21:13 AM Kirk Wallace did opine:

 On Thu, 2011-03-10 at 00:09 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
 ... snip
 
  Look at this baby:
  
  http://goo.gl/QBuc1
  
  100 HP motor by Baldor
  
  They say it takes 224 amps at 230v.
  
  i
 
 This one is cheaper :)
 http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=10-1977catname=electric
 
 but runs 460V. I think Gene needs one for his mill.
'
Sure, it only weighs about 50x what my mill weighs.
 
 Even better:
 http://www.powerzoneequipment.com/inventory_item.asp?StockNo=53388Descr
 iption=1000+HP+Electric+Motor+-+Allis+Chalmers Short URL:
 http://alturl.com/ynqai

Now we're getting definitely into the little blue pill stuff.  Not to 
mention it would slowly descend through my 8 thick garage floor.

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Knghtbrd I can think of lots of people who need USER=ID10T someplace!

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Mon, 2011-03-07 at 22:03 -0800, Clint Washburn wrote:
 I am in the process of converting my 1978 Hitachi Seiki CNC lathe to EMC.
 It currently has a 7.5 KW dc motor that used to be powered by FUJI SCR
 drive.  My first problem my house does not have 3 phase power.  I am having
 to work around this issue with my whole retrofit.  I wish to convert this to
 a 3 phase AC spindle.  What VFD's are people having success with as a
 spindle drive with single phase power?  Is it realistic to have a 10 hp 3
 phase spindle on single phase power?  or will I have to go with a spindle
 motor closer to around 7.5hp instead?  What is everyone's input on this?
 
 Clint Washburn

I have VFD's on all of my machines except one, but only 3HP max. I am
not an expert on VFD's, but it is my understanding that the basic issue
with running single phase into a three phase VFD is that the input is
run through a rectifier that converts the AC in a very wavy DC. This DC
then goes into a bank of capacitors that are there to smooth the wavy DC
to get smooth DC. DC from single phase is much more wavy, and has
periods of zero Volts and full Volts at 60 Hz (in normal places :). On
the other hand, three phase always has a phase that has fairly high
voltage, so the rectified DC is ripply rather than wavy. For single
phase, there will be much more current going in and out of the
capacitors, which is not good for them. Current heats and ages the
capacitors, so they can die early. The rectifiers work a lot harder too.
To get around this, if you use a VFD that is current rated 1.5 or more
times higher than your maximum load, the VFD won't be worked hard enough
to heat up and break down. So use a larger VFD, fed with an over sized
mains connection. Another approach might be to use some form of phase
converter to help smooth the single phase mains before it gets to your
VFD, but I haven't gotten beyond the thinking stage on that one. I
suppose one could actually feed DC into the VFD power input, and it
should work fine. The problem with the bigger VFD's is that generally,
the factory doesn't fill them with smoke, but they need to fill them
with sparks and fire.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-08 Thread andy pugh

On 8 March 2011 06:03, Clint Washburn cl...@clintandheidi.com wrote:
   Is it realistic to have a 10 hp 3
 phase spindle on single phase power?

I read somewhere that it is not possible to get a CE mark for any
single-phase-input inverter above a certain power. However I think
that might have been referring to the voltage-increasing type (UK
power is typically 230V single phase domestic power and 440V
Three-phase industrial power).
Looking on Inverter Drive Supermarket I can't see any 230V single
phase to 230V three phase motors over 5.5kW.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-08 Thread Roland Jollivet

On 8 March 2011 08:03, Clint Washburn cl...@clintandheidi.com wrote:

 I am in the process of converting my 1978 Hitachi Seiki CNC lathe to EMC.
 It currently has a 7.5 KW dc motor that used to be powered by FUJI SCR
 drive.  My first problem my house does not have 3 phase power.  I am having
 to work around this issue with my whole retrofit.  I wish to convert this
 to
 a 3 phase AC spindle.  What VFD's are people having success with as a
 spindle drive with single phase power?  Is it realistic to have a 10 hp 3
 phase spindle on single phase power?  or will I have to go with a spindle
 motor closer to around 7.5hp instead?  What is everyone's input on this?

 Clint Washburn



As far as I know;
A motor rated at 7.5kW can deliver a similar power, but it does not have to.
Spinning the motor under no-load for example, it will only draw a few
hundred watts.

If your milling load is 1kW, for example, that's all it will be supplying,
so you only really need an inverter relative to your needs.

I would try borrow the largest single phase inverter you can get hold of,
and test it out. Set the max-current-out to a reasonable value to prevent
overloading the inverter on startup.
And change the motor connections to delta for the lower input voltage.

Regards
Roland
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[Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-08 Thread Ted Hyde

emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
 Message: 5
 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:03:45 -0800
 From: Clint Washburncl...@clintandheidi.com
 Subject: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question
 To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\)'
   emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Message-ID:00bd01cbdd56$99811290$cc8337b0$@com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 I am in the process of converting my 1978 Hitachi Seiki CNC lathe to EMC.
 It currently has a 7.5 KW dc motor that used to be powered by FUJI SCR
 drive.  My first problem my house does not have 3 phase power.  I am having
 to work around this issue with my whole retrofit.  I wish to convert this to
 a 3 phase AC spindle.  What VFD's are people having success with as a
 spindle drive with single phase power?  Is it realistic to have a 10 hp 3
 phase spindle on single phase power?  or will I have to go with a spindle
 motor closer to around 7.5hp instead?  What is everyone's input on this?

 Clint Washburn

Clint - I converted my Tsugami lathe (also 7.5Hp DC spindle) over to a 
5hp AC spindle - and for testing was running on single phase 220. My AB 
VFD would only get the motor up to about 70% speed (2200rpm) before 
going into Bus Undervolt Fault - I was running this directly from the 
front panel of the VFD without EMC intervention at the time, so there 
should have been little to no regen or accel/decel problems. The spindle 
was also under no load (from cutting) - so under a cut scenario, I'd 
expect the unit to fault just as soon as the insert entered the cut. The 
unit functions just fine under 3phase power, of course.
It may be worthwhile to note that although many VFDs with 3 phase input 
are built on a simple bridge-cap system, how they check the line-line 
voltage may differ, so going leg R-T instead of R-S (for example) may 
get you lucky. Alternatively, you may look at a separate DC supply, and 
feed the ?440 into the DC bus input on your VFDassuming your VFD 
supports it. I can do this on my AB, apparently. I recall Rexroth 
(Bosch) did this with a lot of their high end servo and spindle drives, 
so did Mitsu - one central DC supply, with drives that connected to the 
buss, instead of all AC input units.
My instinct based only one one experience says you're going to have a 
challenge getting that 10hp spooled up on single phase.

BTW - where did you get a 208vac 10hp drive? By the time you get higher 
than 5hp, most are wanting 380-480 inputor you have to mortgage the 
house. :-)

Best wishes,
Ted.

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

Guys, call me stupid, but why can't the OP run his lathe off of that DC
spindle motor? All he needs is a rectifier bridge to run it at constant
speed.

i

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Ted Hyde laser...@gmail.com wrote:

 emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
  Message: 5
  Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:03:45 -0800
  From: Clint Washburncl...@clintandheidi.com
  Subject: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question
  To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\)'
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
  Message-ID:00bd01cbdd56$99811290$cc8337b0$@com
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
 
  I am in the process of converting my 1978 Hitachi Seiki CNC lathe to EMC.
  It currently has a 7.5 KW dc motor that used to be powered by FUJI SCR
  drive.  My first problem my house does not have 3 phase power.  I am
 having
  to work around this issue with my whole retrofit.  I wish to convert this
 to
  a 3 phase AC spindle.  What VFD's are people having success with as a
  spindle drive with single phase power?  Is it realistic to have a 10 hp 3
  phase spindle on single phase power?  or will I have to go with a spindle
  motor closer to around 7.5hp instead?  What is everyone's input on this?
 
  Clint Washburn
 
 Clint - I converted my Tsugami lathe (also 7.5Hp DC spindle) over to a
 5hp AC spindle - and for testing was running on single phase 220. My AB
 VFD would only get the motor up to about 70% speed (2200rpm) before
 going into Bus Undervolt Fault - I was running this directly from the
 front panel of the VFD without EMC intervention at the time, so there
 should have been little to no regen or accel/decel problems. The spindle
 was also under no load (from cutting) - so under a cut scenario, I'd
 expect the unit to fault just as soon as the insert entered the cut. The
 unit functions just fine under 3phase power, of course.
 It may be worthwhile to note that although many VFDs with 3 phase input
 are built on a simple bridge-cap system, how they check the line-line
 voltage may differ, so going leg R-T instead of R-S (for example) may
 get you lucky. Alternatively, you may look at a separate DC supply, and
 feed the ?440 into the DC bus input on your VFDassuming your VFD
 supports it. I can do this on my AB, apparently. I recall Rexroth
 (Bosch) did this with a lot of their high end servo and spindle drives,
 so did Mitsu - one central DC supply, with drives that connected to the
 buss, instead of all AC input units.
 My instinct based only one one experience says you're going to have a
 challenge getting that 10hp spooled up on single phase.

 BTW - where did you get a 208vac 10hp drive? By the time you get higher
 than 5hp, most are wanting 380-480 inputor you have to mortgage the
 house. :-)

 Best wishes,
 Ted.


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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-08 Thread dave

On Mon, 2011-03-07 at 22:03 -0800, Clint Washburn wrote:
 I am in the process of converting my 1978 Hitachi Seiki CNC lathe to EMC.
 It currently has a 7.5 KW dc motor that used to be powered by FUJI SCR
 drive.  My first problem my house does not have 3 phase power.  I am having
 to work around this issue with my whole retrofit.  I wish to convert this to
 a 3 phase AC spindle.  What VFD's are people having success with as a
 spindle drive with single phase power?  Is it realistic to have a 10 hp 3
 phase spindle on single phase power?  or will I have to go with a spindle
 motor closer to around 7.5hp instead?  What is everyone's input on this?
 
 Clint Washburn
  

Just to be totally contrary if the dc motor is working fine then use a
rotary single phase to three phase converter. Lots of stuff on the web
about how to make one. It won't be perfect but probably good enough to
power the fuji controller. I used a 5 hp homebuilt for several years
before upgrading to a 30 Hp commercial job to power the Mazak. 
The commercial one is much better balanced but the other was adequate. 

By OK I mean it balance to about 240, 240, 220 for the homebuilt.
The commercial is within 5 v. 
YMMV
HTH

Dave
 
 
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-08 Thread andy pugh

On 8 March 2011 17:16, dave dengv...@charter.net wrote:

 Just to be totally contrary if the dc motor is working fine then use a
 rotary single phase to three phase converter.

There is a fair chance that the existing DC drive might work OK on
230V single phase. I would think it is probably worth trying.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-08 Thread sam sokolik

or look at dc drives from someone like amc...  I have gotten them as 
large as 100a 400vdc (I would pick the ones with ac inputs..)

sam


On 3/8/2011 11:31 AM, andy pugh wrote:
 On 8 March 2011 17:16, davedengv...@charter.net  wrote:

 Just to be totally contrary if the dc motor is working fine then use a
 rotary single phase to three phase converter.
 There is a fair chance that the existing DC drive might work OK on
 230V single phase. I would think it is probably worth trying.


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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

I have an 11 KW Toshiba inverter on my 7.5 Hp Sheldon 15 lathe.  The 
VFD was
made available for shipping cost only, so no particular reason to choose 
that amount
of over-rating.  It works great, and I can't see any limitations in its 
use.  It doesn't get
any fault conditions.  I have installed braking resistors on it, and 
they do get warm with
repeated start-stop operations.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

Igor Chudov wrote:
 Guys, call me stupid, but why can't the OP run his lathe off of that DC
 spindle motor? All he needs is a rectifier bridge to run it at constant
 speed.

   
Well, a 10 Hp DC motor will draw a LOT of current at start-up.  Yes, 
there is no reason he can't
do that, and there are DC motor controls that should handle it.  But, it 
is at the upper end of the
range of available controls.  Myself, I'd BUILD a DC controller, maybe a 
bank of power MOSFETs
and a home-made inductor.

The DC motor may have much wider speed/torque capabilities that an 
induction motor, too.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote:

 Igor Chudov wrote:
  Guys, call me stupid, but why can't the OP run his lathe off of that DC
  spindle motor? All he needs is a rectifier bridge to run it at constant
  speed.
 
 
 Well, a 10 Hp DC motor will draw a LOT of current at start-up.  Yes,
 there is no reason he can't
 do that, and there are DC motor controls that should handle it.  But, it
 is at the upper end of the
 range of available controls.  Myself, I'd BUILD a DC controller, maybe a
 bank of power MOSFETs
 and a home-made inductor.

 The DC motor may have much wider speed/torque capabilities that an
 induction motor, too.

 Jon


I have a 10 HP motor in my phase converter. It draws 120 amps at startup. So
what, no problem.

i
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 09:16 -0800, dave wrote:
 On Mon, 2011-03-07 at 22:03 -0800, Clint Washburn wrote:
  I am in the process of converting my 1978 Hitachi Seiki CNC lathe to EMC.
  It currently has a 7.5 KW dc motor that used to be powered by FUJI SCR
  drive.  My first problem my house does not have 3 phase power.  I am having
... snip
 Just to be totally contrary if the dc motor is working fine then use a
 rotary single phase to three phase converter. Lots of stuff on the web
 about how to make one. It won't be perfect but probably good enough to
 power the fuji controller. I used a 5 hp homebuilt for several years
 before upgrading to a 30 Hp commercial job to power the Mazak. 
 The commercial one is much better balanced but the other was adequate. 
 
 By OK I mean it balance to about 240, 240, 220 for the homebuilt.
 The commercial is within 5 v. 

I use a home made rotary converter for one of my lathes. This lathe is
not as convenient to use as the lathes with VFD's. It's kind of a pain
to worry about turning the converter on only when I need to use the
lathe, so I tend to not use the lathe unless I have to. Having a remote
start might fix this.

Another thing is that for all static and rotary converters I have seen,
the single phase is passed right through and the converter creates a 90
(or 270) degree phase, so you get 0, 90 and 180 degrees instead of 0,
120 and 240 degrees. A three phase motor should run more smoothly with
evenly spaced phases, but on the other hand, I haven't noticed any
problem with my lathe that uses the converter.

Before I had any VFD's, I was thinking about making a three phase
generator. I only have 50Amps feeding the shop, so I have to be very
careful how I use power. My 300Amp welder needs 150Amps of 240VAC
(36kW). Having a 30 or 40kW generator might fix the problem. For those
with plenty of single phase amperage, the generator could be run with a
single phase motor.

Power factor may play a roll with these issues. I don't know much about
the subject, but the Pro's seem to worry about it.

For the Hitachi lathe, I would tend to figure out what the SCR drive
needs and leave it in place. SCR's need zero Volt crossing to trigger,
so some sort of AC seems to be needed, unless the drive converts the
input to DC and then creates its own AC from that.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote:

 On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 09:16 -0800, dave wrote:
  On Mon, 2011-03-07 at 22:03 -0800, Clint Washburn wrote:
   I am in the process of converting my 1978 Hitachi Seiki CNC lathe to
 EMC.
   It currently has a 7.5 KW dc motor that used to be powered by FUJI SCR
   drive.  My first problem my house does not have 3 phase power.  I am
 having
 ... snip
  Just to be totally contrary if the dc motor is working fine then use a
  rotary single phase to three phase converter. Lots of stuff on the web
  about how to make one. It won't be perfect but probably good enough to
  power the fuji controller. I used a 5 hp homebuilt for several years
  before upgrading to a 30 Hp commercial job to power the Mazak.
  The commercial one is much better balanced but the other was adequate.
 
  By OK I mean it balance to about 240, 240, 220 for the homebuilt.
  The commercial is within 5 v.

 I use a home made rotary converter for one of my lathes. This lathe is
 not as convenient to use as the lathes with VFD's. It's kind of a pain
 to worry about turning the converter on only when I need to use the
 lathe, so I tend to not use the lathe unless I have to. Having a remote
 start might fix this.

 Another thing is that for all static and rotary converters I have seen,
 the single phase is passed right through and the converter creates a 90
 (or 270) degree phase, so you get 0, 90 and 180 degrees instead of 0,
 120 and 240 degrees. A three phase motor should run more smoothly with
 evenly spaced phases, but on the other hand, I haven't noticed any
 problem with my lathe that uses the converter.


This is not true, phases are evenly spaced on mine. I use run capacitors. My
voltages are very close to each other L1-L2, L1-L3, L2-L3.

i


 Before I had any VFD's, I was thinking about making a three phase
 generator. I only have 50Amps feeding the shop, so I have to be very
 careful how I use power. My 300Amp welder needs 150Amps of 240VAC
 (36kW). Having a 30 or 40kW generator might fix the problem. For those
 with plenty of single phase amperage, the generator could be run with a
 single phase motor.

 Power factor may play a roll with these issues. I don't know much about
 the subject, but the Pro's seem to worry about it.

 For the Hitachi lathe, I would tend to figure out what the SCR drive
 needs and leave it in place. SCR's need zero Volt crossing to trigger,
 so some sort of AC seems to be needed, unless the drive converts the
 input to DC and then creates its own AC from that.
 --
 Kirk Wallace
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
 California, USA



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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

Thanks for all the posts.  I am on my lunch break but will be able to read all 
the posts again.  To give a little history about this lathe,  I bought it about 
8 years or so ago.  Right around the time hitachi seiki went bankrupt.  I have 
not been able to acquire any manuals for it ( it is a NH-500...  apparently not 
a Machine that was sold in the US from what I am told). It could possibly be a 
HT-500 but that is not confirmed.  If anyone has a good resource for manuals 
that would be a nice help.  Anyways the machine was fitted originally with a 
Fanuc 2000 control with an additional control used to control the 
drilling/headstock turret.  So it has Z,X,W axes.  Due to the fact I cannot get 
any data, parameters, and other such important data on this machine. I decided 
to scrap the controller and all it's components.  I figured there is a lot more 
efficient and smaller components available now that I can use for the controls 
and systems.   For the servos which ( I did keep the original fanuc drives) I 
am building the UHU servo drives for the servo control.  I don't have the SCR 
drive for the original spindle.  It has a two speed gearbox so I am not too 
worried about derating the spindle down a little bit.  I am interested in the 
drives that can use the DC bus and also even one to control the existing DC 
motor since i am already building a massive power supply for the drives.  I am 
sure I will have more to say tonight.

Thanks,
Clint Washburn

(Sent from my iPhone)

On Mar 8, 2011, at 12:02 PM, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Kirk Wallace 
 kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote:
 
 On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 09:16 -0800, dave wrote:
 On Mon, 2011-03-07 at 22:03 -0800, Clint Washburn wrote:
 I am in the process of converting my 1978 Hitachi Seiki CNC lathe to
 EMC.
 It currently has a 7.5 KW dc motor that used to be powered by FUJI SCR
 drive.  My first problem my house does not have 3 phase power.  I am
 having
 ... snip
 Just to be totally contrary if the dc motor is working fine then use a
 rotary single phase to three phase converter. Lots of stuff on the web
 about how to make one. It won't be perfect but probably good enough to
 power the fuji controller. I used a 5 hp homebuilt for several years
 before upgrading to a 30 Hp commercial job to power the Mazak.
 The commercial one is much better balanced but the other was adequate.
 
 By OK I mean it balance to about 240, 240, 220 for the homebuilt.
 The commercial is within 5 v.
 
 I use a home made rotary converter for one of my lathes. This lathe is
 not as convenient to use as the lathes with VFD's. It's kind of a pain
 to worry about turning the converter on only when I need to use the
 lathe, so I tend to not use the lathe unless I have to. Having a remote
 start might fix this.
 
 Another thing is that for all static and rotary converters I have seen,
 the single phase is passed right through and the converter creates a 90
 (or 270) degree phase, so you get 0, 90 and 180 degrees instead of 0,
 120 and 240 degrees. A three phase motor should run more smoothly with
 evenly spaced phases, but on the other hand, I haven't noticed any
 problem with my lathe that uses the converter.
 
 
 This is not true, phases are evenly spaced on mine. I use run capacitors. My
 voltages are very close to each other L1-L2, L1-L3, L2-L3.
 
 i
 
 
 Before I had any VFD's, I was thinking about making a three phase
 generator. I only have 50Amps feeding the shop, so I have to be very
 careful how I use power. My 300Amp welder needs 150Amps of 240VAC
 (36kW). Having a 30 or 40kW generator might fix the problem. For those
 with plenty of single phase amperage, the generator could be run with a
 single phase motor.
 
 Power factor may play a roll with these issues. I don't know much about
 the subject, but the Pro's seem to worry about it.
 
 For the Hitachi lathe, I would tend to figure out what the SCR drive
 needs and leave it in place. SCR's need zero Volt crossing to trigger,
 so some sort of AC seems to be needed, unless the drive converts the
 input to DC and then creates its own AC from that.
 --
 Kirk Wallace
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
 California, USA
 
 
 
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote:

 On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 14:02 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
 ... snip
   Another thing is that for all static and rotary converters I have seen,
   the single phase is passed right through and the converter creates a 90
   (or 270) degree phase, so you get 0, 90 and 180 degrees instead of 0,
   120 and 240 degrees. A three phase motor should run more smoothly with
   evenly spaced phases, but on the other hand, I haven't noticed any
   problem with my lathe that uses the converter.
  
  
  This is not true, phases are evenly spaced on mine. I use run capacitors.
 My
  voltages are very close to each other L1-L2, L1-L3, L2-L3.

 I'm not talking about voltage balance. I'm talking about voltage phase
 angles.


You can only have equal voltages l1-l3, l2-l3, l1-l2, at 120 degree phase
angles.

i



 If you consider the rising zero crossing of L1 to be zero
 degrees and the next L1 rising crossing to be 360 degrees, for normal
 three phase, L2 will cross 120 degrees after L1, and L2 at 240 degrees.
 For the converters it's 0, 90, 180 or 0, 180, 270. (Picture attached)

 --
 Kirk Wallace
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
 California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote:

 On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 15:35 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
 ... snip
  You can only have equal voltages l1-l3, l2-l3, l1-l2, at 120 degree phase
  angles.

 With 0, 90, 180, if the L3 peak to peak is higher than L1-L2, then the
 L1-L3 and L2-L3 could be made to equal L1-L2. I seem to recall that the
 converter capacitor size adjusts this, but the phase angle spacing will
 still be the same.
 --


Capacitors do adjust phase angle.

i
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 16:07 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
 On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Kirk Wallace 
 kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote:
 
  On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 15:35 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
  ... snip
   You can only have equal voltages l1-l3, l2-l3, l1-l2, at 120 degree phase
   angles.
 
  With 0, 90, 180, if the L3 peak to peak is higher than L1-L2, then the
  L1-L3 and L2-L3 could be made to equal L1-L2. I seem to recall that the
  converter capacitor size adjusts this, but the phase angle spacing will
  still be the same.
  --
 
 
 Capacitors do adjust phase angle.
 
 i

But there is no getting around the fact L1 and L2 are 180 degrees apart.
The phase and voltage of the converter's L3 is unanswered. One of my
problems is that I have never tried to verify any of this with an
oscilloscope. I only have two channels and they are referenced to
ground. Making a test seems like it would take some effort and
converters generally work fine in practice, so the motivation isn't high
enough yet. Thinking more, its just a matter of hooking up the probes to
L1 and L3 and seeing what the phase shift is. If I leave the probes
unconnected, there is no danger to the scope. Besides the converter
should have the same ground. Maybe.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote:

 On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 16:07 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
  On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Kirk Wallace 
 kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote:
 
   On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 15:35 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
   ... snip
You can only have equal voltages l1-l3, l2-l3, l1-l2, at 120 degree
 phase
angles.
  
   With 0, 90, 180, if the L3 peak to peak is higher than L1-L2, then the
   L1-L3 and L2-L3 could be made to equal L1-L2. I seem to recall that the
   converter capacitor size adjusts this, but the phase angle spacing will
   still be the same.
   --
 
 
  Capacitors do adjust phase angle.
 
  i

 But there is no getting around the fact L1 and L2 are 180 degrees apart.


Kirk, it is not true.

You cannot even say, taking two points, that they are so many degrees apart.
you need a third point for this statement to even make sense.

if line neutral is that third point, then yes, L1 and L2 are 180 degrees
apart. But a three phase motor does not even see the line neutral, so it is
not relevant.

Think about it.

i



 The phase and voltage of the converter's L3 is unanswered. One of my
 problems is that I have never tried to verify any of this with an
 oscilloscope. I only have two channels and they are referenced to
 ground. Making a test seems like it would take some effort and
 converters generally work fine in practice, so the motivation isn't high
 enough yet. Thinking more, its just a matter of hooking up the probes to
 L1 and L3 and seeing what the phase shift is. If I leave the probes
 unconnected, there is no danger to the scope. Besides the converter
 should have the same ground. Maybe.
 --
 Kirk Wallace
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
 California, USA



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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

Ted, 

What kind of motor did you go with and what model of vfd do you use? Also I 
have not yet purchased a drive yet I am weighing my options.  I am thinking of 
5-7.5 hp. With the price some of the vfds are going for I would pay several 
times over what I paid for the lathe.

Thanks,
Clint 

On Mar 8, 2011, at 8:54 AM, Ted Hyde laser...@gmail.com wrote:

 emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
 Message: 5
 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:03:45 -0800
 From: Clint Washburncl...@clintandheidi.com
 Subject: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question
 To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\)'
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Message-ID:00bd01cbdd56$99811290$cc8337b0$@com
 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii
 
 I am in the process of converting my 1978 Hitachi Seiki CNC lathe to EMC.
 It currently has a 7.5 KW dc motor that used to be powered by FUJI SCR
 drive.  My first problem my house does not have 3 phase power.  I am having
 to work around this issue with my whole retrofit.  I wish to convert this to
 a 3 phase AC spindle.  What VFD's are people having success with as a
 spindle drive with single phase power?  Is it realistic to have a 10 hp 3
 phase spindle on single phase power?  or will I have to go with a spindle
 motor closer to around 7.5hp instead?  What is everyone's input on this?
 
 Clint Washburn
 
 Clint - I converted my Tsugami lathe (also 7.5Hp DC spindle) over to a 
 5hp AC spindle - and for testing was running on single phase 220. My AB 
 VFD would only get the motor up to about 70% speed (2200rpm) before 
 going into Bus Undervolt Fault - I was running this directly from the 
 front panel of the VFD without EMC intervention at the time, so there 
 should have been little to no regen or accel/decel problems. The spindle 
 was also under no load (from cutting) - so under a cut scenario, I'd 
 expect the unit to fault just as soon as the insert entered the cut. The 
 unit functions just fine under 3phase power, of course.
 It may be worthwhile to note that although many VFDs with 3 phase input 
 are built on a simple bridge-cap system, how they check the line-line 
 voltage may differ, so going leg R-T instead of R-S (for example) may 
 get you lucky. Alternatively, you may look at a separate DC supply, and 
 feed the ?440 into the DC bus input on your VFDassuming your VFD 
 supports it. I can do this on my AB, apparently. I recall Rexroth 
 (Bosch) did this with a lot of their high end servo and spindle drives, 
 so did Mitsu - one central DC supply, with drives that connected to the 
 buss, instead of all AC input units.
 My instinct based only one one experience says you're going to have a 
 challenge getting that 10hp spooled up on single phase.
 
 BTW - where did you get a 208vac 10hp drive? By the time you get higher 
 than 5hp, most are wanting 380-480 inputor you have to mortgage the 
 house. :-)
 
 Best wishes,
 Ted.
 
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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

Igor Chudov wrote:
 On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Kirk Wallace 
 kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote:

   
 Another thing is that for all static and rotary converters I have seen,
 the single phase is passed right through and the converter creates a 90
 (or 270) degree phase, so you get 0, 90 and 180 degrees instead of 0,
 120 and 240 degrees. A three phase motor should run more smoothly with
 evenly spaced phases, but on the other hand, I haven't noticed any
 problem with my lathe that uses the converter.


 
 This is not true, phases are evenly spaced on mine. I use run capacitors. My
 voltages are very close to each other L1-L2, L1-L3, L2-L3.

   
Right.  Although the generated leg is at a right angle to the other 
legs, it is added at the
CENTER tap of the 220 V mains.  It just so happens if you work out the 
trig, it DOES produce
the right phase relationship.  If you draw an isoceles triangle, the 
base is the 220 V mains,
the center of that is your neutral.  The generated leg is 207 V from the 
neutral to the peak
of the triangle.  If you find the center between the three vertices, 
each vertex will be at a
120 degree angle.  The trick is the center-point voltage in this system 
is not at neutral,
as it would be in a 120/208 Wye system.

You really HAVE to draw this out on paper to understand it.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

Kirk Wallace wrote:


 But there is no getting around the fact L1 and L2 are 180 degrees apart.
   
Perfectly normal in any 3-phase situation.  Any two points are 180 
degrees apart on their own line.


__generated leg
   |
  /\
 / .\
/  . \
   /   .  \
  /.   \
 / .\
/  | \
   /   207 V  \
  /*   \
 / |\
/  . \
   /   .  \
  /.   \
 / .\
110V _ 110V
   |
mains Neutral__|

If you measure angle from the star in the center to any two vertoces, 
you get 120 degrees.
If you measure voltage from that point, you get 120 V.  If you measure 
from any line to
any line, you get 220 V.The generated leg comes from the vertical 
dotted line, which is
clearly at 90 degrees from the mains, but because the center of the 3 
Phase power is NOT
at that neutral point, you DO get the proper phase relationship.  This 
is the scheme that
makes a Scott-Tee network operate, that a 90 degree phase shift when 
applied at the right point
and with the right voltage, does produce a real 3-phase output.

This all assumes a perfectly balanced converter, which may be a rare find.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

What would be the best way to get the voltage up to 400v DC?

-Original Message-
From: sam sokolik [mailto:sa...@empirescreen.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 9:38 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

or look at dc drives from someone like amc...  I have gotten them as 
large as 100a 400vdc (I would pick the ones with ac inputs..)

sam

On 3/8/2011 11:31 AM, andy pugh wrote:
 On 8 March 2011 17:16, davedengv...@charter.net  wrote:

 Just to be totally contrary if the dc motor is working fine then use a
 rotary single phase to three phase converter.
 There is a fair chance that the existing DC drive might work OK on
 230V single phase. I would think it is probably worth trying.

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

What model Toshiba is it?

-Original Message-
From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 10:43 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

I have an 11 KW Toshiba inverter on my 7.5 Hp Sheldon 15 lathe.  The 
VFD was
made available for shipping cost only, so no particular reason to choose 
that amount
of over-rating.  It works great, and I can't see any limitations in its 
use.  It doesn't get
any fault conditions.  I have installed braking resistors on it, and 
they do get warm with
repeated start-stop operations.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

2011-03-08 Thread Peter C. Wallace

On Tue, 8 Mar 2011, Clint Washburn wrote:

 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 18:54:50 -0800
 From: Clint Washburn cl...@clintandheidi.com
 Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
 emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question
 
 What would be the best way to get the voltage up to 400v DC?

240 VAC rectified is about 340V peak (assuming capacitor input filter) so 
fairly close.

Peter Wallace

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

Are there any VFD's you recommend that would support such a motor?

-Original Message-
From: Kirk Wallace [mailto:kwall...@wallacecompany.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:00 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Mon, 2011-03-07 at 22:03 -0800, Clint Washburn wrote:
 I am in the process of converting my 1978 Hitachi Seiki CNC lathe to EMC.
 It currently has a 7.5 KW dc motor that used to be powered by FUJI SCR
 drive.  My first problem my house does not have 3 phase power.  I am
having
 to work around this issue with my whole retrofit.  I wish to convert this
to
 a 3 phase AC spindle.  What VFD's are people having success with as a
 spindle drive with single phase power?  Is it realistic to have a 10 hp 3
 phase spindle on single phase power?  or will I have to go with a spindle
 motor closer to around 7.5hp instead?  What is everyone's input on this?
 
 Clint Washburn

I have VFD's on all of my machines except one, but only 3HP max. I am
not an expert on VFD's, but it is my understanding that the basic issue
with running single phase into a three phase VFD is that the input is
run through a rectifier that converts the AC in a very wavy DC. This DC
then goes into a bank of capacitors that are there to smooth the wavy DC
to get smooth DC. DC from single phase is much more wavy, and has
periods of zero Volts and full Volts at 60 Hz (in normal places :). On
the other hand, three phase always has a phase that has fairly high
voltage, so the rectified DC is ripply rather than wavy. For single
phase, there will be much more current going in and out of the
capacitors, which is not good for them. Current heats and ages the
capacitors, so they can die early. The rectifiers work a lot harder too.
To get around this, if you use a VFD that is current rated 1.5 or more
times higher than your maximum load, the VFD won't be worked hard enough
to heat up and break down. So use a larger VFD, fed with an over sized
mains connection. Another approach might be to use some form of phase
converter to help smooth the single phase mains before it gets to your
VFD, but I haven't gotten beyond the thinking stage on that one. I
suppose one could actually feed DC into the VFD power input, and it
should work fine. The problem with the bigger VFD's is that generally,
the factory doesn't fill them with smoke, but they need to fill them
with sparks and fire.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA



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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 20:38 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
... snip
 You really HAVE to draw this out on paper to understand it.

Does the drawing method have a name I can search for and study?
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

Clint Washburn wrote:
 What model Toshiba is it?
   
It is a Tosvert VF-A5, a pretty old model.  Also, the manual is pretty 
inscrutable, it took
me several days to figure out enough to do what I wanted, mostly related 
to making a 3-button
control work.  I had to add two relays as I couldn't figure out any way 
to make it latch the
buttons on.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question

Kirk Wallace wrote:
 On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 20:38 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
 ... snip
   
 You really HAVE to draw this out on paper to understand it.
 

 Does the drawing method have a name I can search for and study?
   
Drawing included in next email message.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question


With some research tonight I have found out a little bit more info on VFDs.
Most of the manufacturers stop listing single phase as a source for more
than 3 horsepower because mostly motors larger than this have three phase
power.  The drives that specify single phase as a power source have larger
filter capacitors.  Most (not all)  larger VFDs can still be used on single
phase.  Sizing can be as easy as doubling the size of the drive to the
motor's HP rating.  But better yet use the full load amps of the motor to be
driven to figure out the number of amps needed from the single phase line.
To figure this out multiply the 3 phase Full load amps by the square root of
3 = (1.7320) and add 10-12% for a safety margin.  For me a 7.5kw motor with
a full load amps rating of 12 amps would yield 20.784 amps and + 12% would
be about 25 amps.  I would then use a drive with a rated input current of at
least 25 amps.  From what I have found out anyways both methods are going to
be pretty close to the same.  I would also need to limit the output current
on the drive to the motors actual rating to prevent exceeding the input
current.  Since a 20HP drive would easily be able to demand from the DC bus
more current than the rectifiers now running on only 2 legs instead of three
could provide and cause an over-current on the inputs.  I think that I would
prefer to err. on the safer side to help avoiding damaging the rectifiers.
Am I on the right track or am I looking at this wrong?


 

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Re: [Emc-users] Single Phase Lathe spindle motor question